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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.12 10:18:00 -
[1]
Well I'm going to invent T2 Gallente frigs (only those) and I'm not really sure which decyptors to use. I'm probably not going to manufacture them (well perhaps a few), but I might do that in the future. So, which decryptor to use. I know the stats, but I'm not 100& sure that should I aim for more runs or better wastefactor etc.
Just to line it up.
Lab at a pos - check (my corp)
gallentean starship cores - check (990rp daily)
incognito interface (whatever it was called) - buying it "check"
Mechanical engineerin cores - buying them "check" (perhaps training it and splitting my r&d agents between both cores)
blueprint copies - check (my own)
decryptors (which ones?)
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Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2009.01.12 12:03:00 -
[2]
The simple answer is dont use decryptors for t2 frigates.
There are occassions when they can be justified. For example, at the moment, assault frigates are at a high and moving quite well and you might be able to justify using a cheap decryptor to give ME/PE 1 to reduce costs and increase manufacturing speed but generally they are not cost effective. Even in this example, the benefit only occurs if you are manufacturing 24/7 and selling all your stock.
If you explore to get decryptors then you are probably better building up stocks for when you do cruiser invention.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.12 12:35:00 -
[3]
I'm probably not going to do any cruiser inventing ( not personally) because I also need these ships and I only fly frigs. Basically you are saying that if you don't get'em free, then don't use em. I can live with that. |
BeBop Lula
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Posted - 2009.01.12 13:08:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
I'm probably not going to do any cruiser inventing ( not personally) because I also need these ships and I only fly frigs. Basically you are saying that if you don't get'em free, then don't use em. I can live with that.
If you get the decryptors from exploration, they are not free. There is a cost in time for that exploration. Simply put, if I mission for two hours, I get 40M from rewards, loot and salvage. If I explore for two hours and get 4 identical decryptors, each decryptor has to be worth 10M because otherwise I would be better missioning for 2 hours and then buying the decryptors from the market.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.12 13:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: BeBop Lula
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
I'm probably not going to do any cruiser inventing ( not personally) because I also need these ships and I only fly frigs. Basically you are saying that if you don't get'em free, then don't use em. I can live with that.
If you get the decryptors from exploration, they are not free. There is a cost in time for that exploration. Simply put, if I mission for two hours, I get 40M from rewards, loot and salvage. If I explore for two hours and get 4 identical decryptors, each decryptor has to be worth 10M because otherwise I would be better missioning for 2 hours and then buying the decryptors from the market.
I know, but I'm not so much into maximising my every single move and hour in eve. If i want to do that I might as well just sell a GTC and be over with it. Personally, I play this game for fun. Not profit.
a) Do all sorts of stuff and enjoy doing it
b) Just hit one button repeadeatly to gain most isk.
I would choose a). |
Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.01.12 14:37:00 -
[6]
I too would choose A in your list, but that really isn't the point in this situation. Look at what you could sell the decryptor for. Also look at what it would cost to build the ship if you're going to build it, or what you could sell the BPC for if that's your intention, at the various levels of ME. Also look at your success rates because some decryptors increase it or decrease it. Then just figure out what works best.
If you do enough inventions, you'll succeed eventually. You might well be better off just trying multiple times over until you get the successes you need and keeping your decryptors for other projects later.
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Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2009.01.12 16:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
I know, but I'm not so much into maximising my every single move and hour in eve. If i want to do that I might as well just sell a GTC and be over with it. Personally, I play this game for fun. Not profit.
a) Do all sorts of stuff and enjoy doing it
b) Just hit one button repeadeatly to gain most isk.
I would choose a).
Can I highlight that you asked which decryptor is best to use. If you have stated that you did not care about the value of the decryptor, I would have told you to use the most expensive one.
Clearly you do assign a value to your time in eve and you are trying to make money so that your time can be spent on doing more of the stuff you enjoy.
I promise you that if you blindly assign a value of 0 to anything that you find/mine/loot/salvage then you will probably spend more time doing stuff you dont enjoy. |
Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.13 07:14:00 -
[8]
I did not ask the value of a decryptor (as in ISK) as I asked which one would be most beneficial for my use. Because the decryptors have different statistics that aren't linear to the price. Aka, they do two different things.
Aye, if running only frigs prints the decryptors aren't really useful in a reasonable sense, then I might as well give them to my corp if I happen to cross some of those decryptors.
Stop whining. |
Lady Valory
Caldari
Caldari Strike Force
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Lady Valory on 13/01/2009 11:30:47
You're being a bit stupid...
Suppose I use the best decryptor and invent an ishtar bpc and sell it for 20mil isk profit...
Then I take that profit and buy a gallente t2 frig... AND get all my isk back that I put into the job...
I just got my frig!
In your model, you are going to spend the decryptor making a t2 frig--total cost 30million isk, and then at the end you get a t2 frig and have NOTHING left over while I am sitting on a pile of isk...
OK, fine, I take that pile of isk and make another ishtar and sell it...
I take the profits and buy another t2 frig...
Now I have 2 t2 frigs and you have to SPEND 30mil isk to make your second one...
In the end, I get infinite t2 frigs for free and you spend spend spend...
I guess to answer ur question, the value of a decrptor is based on how much isk it SAVES you relative to the cost...
If you use the one that gives -1 ME as opposed to -4 ME from NOT using a decrptor, then you have saved 3 ME in production costs...
So what you need to do is find a table or chart that lists how much in t2 parts you SAVE then add up the prices to those parts in the jita market...
The problem is t2 frigs dont take THAT MUCH to make...
SO if you spend 15 mil isk on a decryptor and then get a -1 ME t2 frig bpc, and the total cost savings in t2 parts to build that frig is 10mil, then you spend 15 mil on a decryptor to save 10 mil isk in t2 parts? HUH, you just lost isk, regardless of whether it is fun for you or not, it is still a stupid waste of time...
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Dr Sheepbringer on 13/01/2009 11:39:35
I must say that I'm not really following you.
I don't have encryptors, nor do I have access to explorations sites (well I lack the skills in that area). The question was that while I'm only doing T2 frigs is it worthwhile to actually get decryptors and if I happen to cross one (perhaps from loot) then would I actually gain anything from it.
Another point is that is better to raise the change rather than making a "good" print.
EDIT: So with frigs it's better to make more "bad prints" (thus using encyptors suited for that) or alternatively not using decryptors at all. Because a good print will cost more to create than the profit you gain from using less materials. That pretty much sums up the original question i had in mind.
Stop whining. |
McDuke
Abnormal Experience
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:53:00 -
[11]
The question however is how do you value decryptors. If they are "free" then pick up the one that gives you what you want most. Best ME, lots of runs, fast production type,... you name it.
If decryptors have some value you need to ask yourself what that value and if that value is less then the savings it brings.
If you would have checked that or just read what others have told you, you should already come conclusion that decryptors are generally to expensive to be used with frigate inventions.
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BeBop Lula
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:58:00 -
[12]
No decryptors would be the best option to use because you clearly dont understand what decryptors do.
However Stolen Formulas will give you the highest chance of success with your invention attempt followed by Test Reports. Since cost is clearly not a consideration, increasing the chance that you will get a t2 bpc appears to be the only advantage you seek.
The table below shows the change in chance that is achieved with each decryptor.
Gallente
Name Chance ME PE Runs
Stolen Formulas 1.8 -1 2 4
Test Reports 1.2 2 5 1
Collision Measurements 1.1 3 3 0
Engagement Plan 1.0 1 4 2
Symbiotic Figures 0.6 -2 1 9
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.13 13:22:00 -
[13]
I haven't said that decryptors would be free, only that IF I come by some for example from a exploration site it would "free" because I didn't pay for it in the same manner as I would have done from the market. That if I happen to get one without PAYING isk, i would use it.
Second, what am I not understanding? The more expensive the decryptor, the better chance it has on runs and probablity to invent a T2 print. The cheaper the decryptor, the less chance is has on getting a good run print and a T2 print alltoghether, but the quality in terms of manufacturing would be better.
With T2 frigs I've understood that because the amount of materials is so small, it's not worth to make "good" prints in exhange or runs and probability. As T2 frigates aren't really that expensive it's not worth using the most expensive ones either even though they have a high probability and run factor, because it's still cheaper to do more inventions rather than buying encryptors.
Stop whining. |
Austin Kincaid
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Posted - 2009.01.13 13:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
I haven't said that decryptors would be free, only that IF I come by some for example from a exploration site it would "free" because I didn't pay for it in the same manner as I would have done from the market. That if I happen to get one without PAYING isk, i would use it.
Second, what am I not understanding?
I highlighted in red what it is that I think you dont understand. Its called your "Opportunity cost". You would be better off not using any decryptors inventing frigates. If you sell any decryptors you come across instead of using them you will be able to afford more invention attempts than any possible savings you might get from actually using any decryptor you might use no matter how it was gained.
And before you ask, yes, I too play the game for fun, not profit and it took me a really long time to understand what opportunity cost is so dont be deterred. I would suggest that you look in the market discussions to get a better explanation of Opportunity cost.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:16:00 -
[15]
I do understand it, because I'm pretty much involved with it in my real life. One thing I should have clarified is that the amounts of encryptors I would get, would probably fall in the area of 1-2. I have no plans in getting them (now that I know that it's pretty much pointless with T2 frigs) and the only real means (for me) to get them would have been the market (which I know now is a bad idea, for frigs).
Using a encryptor (if i come by one) would be more of an experiment (which would be wiser to make profitable by another means), but as I said... I don't plan on buying certain ships for weeks. I go out, buy it and see if works :) Of course I've been at this game for a while already, but not in this field.
Stop whining. |
Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:30:00 -
[16]
Somebody used this as a pretty good example of opportunity cost in another thread recently. I'll try to adjust it to match the situation being discussed here. Keep in mind, I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass here to illustrate; they don't have any basis in reality.
Supposed you have 500 million in your wallet. You go exploring and find 5 decryptors that are 20 million selling them on the market. You are now worth 600 million: 500 million in liquid assets and 100 million in hard assets. Now, you take those 5 decryptors and use them in 5 invention attempts, each of which also costs you 2 million for the datacores. Your net worth drops by 110 million down to 490 million. Out of that you get two successful inventions. Say those blueprints are worth 20 million each, that makes your net worth 530 million. You're actually down 70 million at this point. Now you spend 10 million building each of those two ships. You keep one and sell the other for 20 million. Your worth went from 530 to 510 buying the materials, then up to 550 after building the two frigates. At the end, you have 530 million in your wallet and a new 20 million frigate.
If you had sold the decryptors you'd have had 600 million in your wallet. If you'd just bought the T2 frigate with that money instead you'd have 580 million plus the frigate, so you effectively lost 50 million by doing this. That's opportunity cost.
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.13 15:19:00 -
[17]
Yes, but I also put weight on actually building your own ship (and inventing it). If was a sensible man, I wouldn't even consider this because I don't have enough skill in trade (to lower the tax), nor do I have enough in industry to actually have an efficient production efficiency.
As I said, it's not about the money when it comes using a single encryptor etc. With the info I have now I won't be using encryptors for my "business invention", but for that oddboll experiment. If that experiment costs me 100mil in revenue, then so be it. |
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