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SKILL REMAP OPTION

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Erdren Merat Alpha Arms and Manufacturing BROTHERHOOD OF DESTRUCTION 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 02:56:00 - [1] - Quote So I have been playing on and off (financial reasons) since 2008. I have just over 10mil SP however because I was for the most part on my own when I was playing and did not know much of things like EveMon or Battle Clinic I kind of just trained a little bit of everything. As a result I can not really fly anything very well except a Hulk. What I would like to see would be an option in the game to remap my SP just like I can remap my base stats. Now I am not saying I should be able to do this often because that would allow corps to have / require everyone to switch to one set of skills to do a stretch of mining then switch to pvp and doing so back and forth. No I am more talking on a one or two time a year remap that may or may not cost X PLEX. It would not hurt any one rather it would allow players that made bad choices early in their characters life to undo those choices for skills they never use. Yes in real life if you go learn something and never use it you cant matrix it into something else but this is a game after all and you should be able to do what you want. You already put in the training time for the SP so why not. This has been done on a small scale already when learning skills were taken out because it was slowing down training rather than speeding it up. So with a revisit on the system they used to do that I predict a remap system could be done in under 100 man hours.
mxzf Shovel Bros 1240	Posted - 2012.04.17 03:14:00 - [2] - Quote First off, proposals like this belong in the F&I forum. Second, this idea has been proposed many times already. Third, it's still a horrible idea that would break the game.
Erdren Merat Alpha Arms and Manufacturing BROTHERHOOD OF DESTRUCTION 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 04:09:00 - [3] - Quote Yes I agree it should be in F&I haven't used the forums much and was in the skills section. Will move it there but first: I don't see how this would break the game. Say I put 3 years of nonstop training into the game. I still spent the time that some one that went down that path to start with did. If I choose to lose my ability to mine at all so I can fly lets say a Rokh with T2 fits and I have the time it takes to get there played why cant I lose one option for another? It works the other way too. Say I can fly a Thanotose but not I find myself in a high sec mining corp cus I found out my IRL friend played but thats what he did. So I switch to mining so I can do stuff with my friend, but now I cant fly that Thanotose any more. That doesn't break the game.
Leetha Layne Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2012.04.17 06:09:00 - [4] - Quote I for one am not going to restate the endless arguments against this Snowflake. It's the way it is for a reason.
Reldor Silverheart Deflagration Imperial Hull Tankers 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 09:00:00 - [5] - Quote Short answer : No Long answer : This is a terrible idea, so no TL;DR: no
RaTTuS BIG Gentlemen's Agreement 186	Posted - 2012.04.17 10:55:00 - [6] - Quote no no no no unless there is a skill to enable you to remap skill points http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png
Greg Valanti Looney Clones 36	Posted - 2012.04.17 11:18:00 - [7] - Quote RaTTuS wrote: no no no no unless there is a skill to enable you to remap skill points And even then, that skill should be purposely broken, so no.
Andy DelGardo Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:10:00 - [8] - Quote I also don't see how a "once a year" skill remap will "break" the game, even a 50% point remap would work. U can still circumvent this missing feature via the official character market and sell your character and grab a new one. I also guess its a dead horse since eve is a hardcore game and i don't see many hardcore players supporting this idea. Just look at the feedback here, the hardcore mass don't like it so thats how it will be :) bye Andy
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6143	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:10:00 - [9] - Quote Standard copypasta for this horrible idea: It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. GÇªall of that for something that doesn't solve any kind of problem. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Andy DelGardo Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.04.17 16:16:00 - [10] - Quote Tippia wrote: It kills character trading. Don't want to start arguing on the OP subject , since i think its not supported widely enough so there are 1000 more important things to change in eve, but on the character trading aspect i actually think this will improve it. Think about it this way, if i can buy a 10mil SP toon with a skill revamp system there are much more "valid" character offers and possible buyers on the market. This in return means more character traded and possible lower prices. PS: Btw what about a 1 time skill remap after 3-12 months so new players get a chance to first try lots of stuff and of they don't like it anymore can correct it once.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6147	Posted - 2012.04.17 17:15:00 - [11] - Quote Andy DelGardo wrote: PS: Btw what about a 1 time skill remap after 3-12 months so new players get a chance to first try lots of stuff and of they don't like it anymore can correct it once. Why do they need to GÇ£correctGÇ¥ it? EVE has no cap and no limit to what you can train. If you want to do something else, you train something else. If you want to try something, you can do so with a very small SP investment (caps being the only real exception, but that's probably for the good GÇö you shouldn't get into those without a well thought-out plan anyway). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 433	Posted - 2012.04.17 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote This has been brought up before. Read all those threads. If you still think it's a good idea, please 1) re-post 2) in Features and Ideas 3) with rebuttals to all of the totally valid points already brought up in opposition to the whole concept.
Biutch Carebears forever 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 19:54:00 - [13] - Quote Tip for you! Save money, sell your char(or keep it or whatever). Buy new char!
Erdren Merat Alpha Arms and Manufacturing BROTHERHOOD OF DESTRUCTION 0	Posted - 2012.04.17 19:54:00 - [14] - Quote Already have moved this and said I would but people took off against it here so what ever. And as my last point that I brought up in the right thread. STOP SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT CHARACTER MARKET SELLING AND TRADING CHARACTERS FOR ISK OR FOR MONEY IS AGAINST THE EULA!! (but apparently blue posted as ok?) I will accept any other valid reasons other than that one. Finally I would never want it to be something you could do even once a month I would like either a one time only per account or at the very most often once a year. What I have learned about this topic is that there are a lot of people for it and a lot of people against the idea, and that it is 99% never going to happen so I am dropping the issue. If you want to continue to bicker on about it I am not going to stop you. === END THREAD ===
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 433	Posted - 2012.04.17 20:44:00 - [15] - Quote Erdren Merat wrote: STOP SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT CHARACTER MARKET SELLING AND TRADING CHARACTERS FOR ISK OR FOR MONEY IS AGAINST THE EULA!! (but apparently blue posted as ok?) No it isn't. In fact it's encouraged, sanctioned activity. Well, for ISK. Not so much for fiat currency.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6158	Posted - 2012.04.17 22:21:00 - [16] - Quote Erdren Merat wrote: STOP SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT CHARACTER MARKET SELLING AND TRADING CHARACTERS FOR ISK OR FOR MONEY IS AGAINST THE EULA!! (but apparently blue posted as ok?) For your reading pleasure. No. Character trading is entirely legal as long as it's done within the framework set up by CCP, to the point where they are providing an official game forum section for the purpose and a section of the account management page dedicated to the service. You're not allowed to trade your account, but your character is just another asset that you can sell to other players for ISK. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Azemar Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations 3	Posted - 2012.04.17 23:06:00 - [17] - Quote mxzf wrote: First off, proposals like this belong in the F&I forum. Second, this idea has been proposed many times already. Third, it's still a horrible idea that would break the game. If they limited something like to an obscene amount of time (like once every two years), i don't see how it would break the game. It would reasonably give you one chance to choose your skills more wisely.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 112	Posted - 2012.04.18 04:34:00 - [18] - Quote There are games that offer this. This game doesn't. Its called "different."
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6176	Posted - 2012.04.18 04:42:00 - [19] - Quote Azemar wrote: If they limited something like to an obscene amount of time (like once every two years), i don't see how it would break the game. Not obscene enough. It would have to be limited to once every 8 years or so GÇö to the point where it no longer matters or makes any difference GÇö for it not to cause a whole slew of issues. GÇªand even then, it's still a potentially game-breaking solution to a problem that doesn't exist to begin with so there's still no reason to implement it and plenty of reason not to. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 5	Posted - 2012.04.18 05:49:00 - [20] - Quote Tippia wrote: Azemar wrote: If they limited something like to an obscene amount of time (like once every two years), i don't see how it would break the game. Not obscene enough. It would have to be limited to once every 8 years or so GÇö to the point where it no longer matters or makes any difference GÇö for it not to cause a whole slew of issues. This. Very much this. As stated above by Orlacc Eve is different. That's why I finally got here in late 2010. Most other game developers forget about what was right in their games, get off the track over time and end up making a whole pile of **** out of what was once a lot of fun. If CCP starts doing the same, if they start making EVE into some kind of WoW in space, I'm out.
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 5	Posted - 2012.04.18 06:02:00 - [21] - Quote Azemar wrote: It would reasonably give you one chance to choose your skills more wisely. Stand up to your decisions, accept the consequences and change your path in the future to fit your goals.
Andy DelGardo Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.04.18 10:03:00 - [22] - Quote Mara Pahrdi wrote: Tippia wrote: Azemar wrote: If they limited something like to an obscene amount of time (like once every two years), i don't see how it would break the game. Not obscene enough. It would have to be limited to once every 8 years or so GÇö to the point where it no longer matters or makes any difference GÇö for it not to cause a whole slew of issues. This. Very much this. As stated above by Orlacc EVE is different. That's why I finally got here in late 2010. Most other game developers forget about what was right in their games, get off the track over time and end up making a whole pile of **** out of what was once a lot of fun. If CCP starts doing the same, if they start making EVE into some kind of WoW in space, I'm out. I think thats a bit overly generalized and sound more like a defensive than a constructive post. Basically every online/offline game with skill and character progression may ask the question regarding to implement a skill revamp/modify system. Obviously there is no right or wrong, since either way has its advantages and disadvantages. I personally don't have a big problem with a fixed system, since i buy my toons anyway. The main point i see in eve is the extreme long time some skill activities needs before u can gasp the full consequences, so as example u may like missles and caldari in PvE for the first year, but now u just joined a PvP corp and they basically tell u "skill lasers and Armor rep". There are many more examples, where probably everyone played eve might have thought to themself "damm if i just had skilled this rather than that, but i did not know this or that". Thats ofc because eve is extremely complex and complicated at the same time, so ofc u cant know everything. It now boils down to weather u feel the game will profit or don't profit from a more flexible skill system. My main problem is the time it takes to test things in eve, precisely the requirement skills for some ships or activities. The tutorial is really bad and clumsy compared to other games, so its not a big help to decide what u may like or may not like in eve, so most new players stumble around trying to figure out whats in for them, but compared to other games it takes month rather than days to get a correct answer to weather u may like or dislike a activity. So a skill revamp system is only one option to solve those problems and i don't say its the only or best option. bye Andy
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2012.04.18 15:46:00 - [23] - Quote The skill system in EVE is not a "feature" of the game, it is an integral part of the game. Can you understand the difference?
Azemar Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations 3	Posted - 2012.04.19 03:43:00 - [24] - Quote Mara Pahrdi wrote: Azemar wrote: It would reasonably give you one chance to choose your skills more wisely. Stand up to your decisions, accept the consequences and change your path in the future to fit your goals. Oh I have no problem with how i've chosen things, and i probably wouldn't change my skills even if i had the option. But here's the issue. You need to find a middle ground between the elitists of this game (sorry but that's what you guys are, whether that's an insult or not), and the new players. New players want everything on a silver platter like every other mmo. Screw that. Old players want almost nothing about the fundamental system touched because they feel entitled to being the "elite" of the game. Try to be objective and take a step back to make a healthier game. A skill remap would be fine, but make it a giant decision. As i said previously, giving the option only once every 2-3 years would be perfectly fine. You can say even that would ruin the game, but until you show me and objective, logical, and clear cut reason why even that would destroy the game, i'm just going to assume you're an elitist that doesn't want his baby touched.
Lost Greybeard Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution 27	Posted - 2012.04.19 18:31:00 - [25] - Quote Azemar wrote: until you show me and objective, logical, and clear cut reason why even that would destroy the game, i'm just going to assume you're an elitist that doesn't want his baby touched. Because 2 to 3 years is still not much longer than the nerf/buff cycle so it will still result in FOTM gaming, which is the bane of other games. Because any skill remapping at all breaks the attribute-based progression system by allowing you to build up skills at maximum speed and then spread them out over non-optimal skills, something the devs have explicitly and repeatedly made clear that they don't want to do. Because the entire draw of Eve is that actions have consequences. Getting blown up means you've lost invested isk. Falling for a scam means you're out the ships or isk or whatever and you should deal. Skilling into a skill that you don't use means you're stuck with a skill you don't use. If you remove the consequences from the game there is nothing whatsoever to distinguish Eve from any other MMO, and unless your game is based on a certain ridiculously popular IP then not being distinct from other MMOs is a good way to lose all your subscribers rather quickly. And, most importantly, because it's not the job of the people that are fine with how a system works to continually prove that things shouldn't change, it's the job of the people that aren't fine to give a compelling reason why they _should_. Burden of proof is on you and you haven't given a single valid reason to make the change. "Healthier game" isn't an argument, it's an assertion, meaning you kind of fail at first-year rhetoric.
Azemar Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations 3	Posted - 2012.04.19 21:42:00 - [26] - Quote You're blaming me for failing a rhetoric, while you also asset that the nerf/buff cycle is not much longer than 3 years?! Eve gets 2 expansions a year. You cannot plan around that. And it's not an assertion. It's a fact. If you gave players a remap option, Eve would gain players, which makes the game healthier in the long run. 3 years is easily a long enough time for there to very clearly still be consequences. Once you hit that button (assuming this is the "cooldown), you cannot change anything for 3 years. It's ridiculous to be throwing out "Oh just like every other mmo" when every other mmo allows you to basically do it at free will, and they're completely different games. It makes the game healthier because people change what they like. If you have a player who has done PvE and combat for say 4 years, and he decides that he wants to mine. He has been giving money to CCP and been a loyal customer for years. He deserves that remap ability. You also have to remember CCP is a company. If they want more players, they're going to have to cater to the general population, not just the old player base. But they don't have to screw over them either. The only downside of a remap option with say, a 3 year cooldown, is that it would hurt what your idea of "Eve" is. Its too long to be able to remap around nerfs and buffs, because they happen on a large basis twice a year. You see, unlike most players (because of ignorance), i want CCP and Eve to be around for a while. And i know that until they decide to start changing their philosophy to a more general population, then they'll either die out or remain in their current state.
Leetha Layne Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2012.04.19 23:07:00 - [27] - Quote Azemar wrote: You see, unlike most players (because of ignorance), i want CCP and Eve to be around for a while. And i know that until they decide to start changing their philosophy to a more general population, then they'll either die out or remain in their current state. Maybe log some credibility before calling folks ignorant.
Lost Greybeard Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution 30	Posted - 2012.04.20 21:28:00 - [28] - Quote Azemar wrote: You're blaming me for failing a rhetoric, while you also asset that the nerf/buff cycle is not much longer than 3 years?! Eve gets 2 expansions a year. You cannot plan around that.. Um, are you a very new player or something? The majority of expansions don't significantly change the game's balance in any way. The length of time for a ship type to go from the top of the PvP pile to the bottom and back up again is about three years. Also, the general development course has been plotted out several years in advance, and they tell us what's coming with a year or more of warning. Can you actually not plan around that? Because if so, Eve may not be for you.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6216	Posted - 2012.04.20 21:47:00 - [29] - Quote Azemar wrote: You're blaming me for failing a rhetoric, while you also asset that the nerf/buff cycle is not much longer than 3 years?! Eve gets 2 expansions a year. You cannot plan around that. GÇªand as luck would have it, you don't have to. You can plan what you want to do 3 years down the line, and if at any point during that time, the buff/nerf cycle changes, the things you will have to adjust are pretty minimal. At no point will that cycle say that, onoz, all your combat skills are now useless and you must train for T2 manufacturing instead GÇö it will shift from one type of combat to another, and the fundamental skill set will be the same. Moreover, they will affect everyone else who will also have to adjust their training (should they be the silly type who chases the FOTM). Finally, that cycle is very very slow and gives you a lot of head start GÇö you will know long before it happens that it's going to happen, giving you plenty of time to adjust what you need to do. Quote: It makes the game healthier because people change what they like. They already can. Want to use something new? Just train it. Nothing is stopping you. That's the beauty of the EVE skill system and why SP remapping is completely unnecessary: the supposed problem it's meant to solve doesn't exist, and the solution is already built into the mechanics. Quote: The only downside of a remap option with say, a 3 year cooldown, is GÇªall the ones listed GÇö in particular how it completely screws over new players. In addition, as mentioned, it still doesn't solve any kind of problem for all the problems it causes. Quote: You see, unlike most players (because of ignorance), i want CCP and Eve to be around for a while. Apparently not, since you want to change something that has been with the game for a decade already, and remove that for something that GÇö if anything GÇö will make people quit sooner since it introduces such massive discrepancies between old and new players; outright removes large portions of the game; makes skill progression and character building largely pointlessGÇª you know, all of those things that give people a distaste for sticking around for a long time. If you're going to make that kind of claim, understand the system and what it does for the game first. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Drew Solaert University of Caille Gallente Federation 141	Posted - 2012.04.24 12:11:00 - [30] - Quote Don't suggest that shite again. Seriously. I'll even back up that statement with a muscial number if so desired. Firstly, takes away the point in skill training all together if you can just on a whim think "today I'll be a Minmatar pilot ace!" Secondly, Makes attributes entirely pointless Thirdly, Makes specialisation enitrely pointless Fourthly, Everyone would just fly flavour of the month, which would then lead to just Meta on Meta action, which tbh is a horrific idea. You mention a huge cooldown, still doesn't sway me, mainly because it'll just lead people bawling their eyes out and asking for a smaller cooldown, when something gets nerfed etc. And in 2 years, assuming you did train the entire time, thats like 40mil SP. Hell you could fly every races subcap with t2 fittings and a majority of the t2/t3 ships in that time if you went pure combat, so not excatly benifical in that reguard. Same applies with industry. 40mil SP and you good to build/invent/PI like crazy. You'll probably want to keep them seperate anyway so its entirely pointless. I'll be joining the FDU on May 1st.-á Ladies! Please contain yourselves.

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