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Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:35:00 - [1] Looking at the latest dev blog I began to wonder... Was EVE with the old client so bad? Did we need the new graphics or did the game play make up for the slightly dated way the game looked? From my own point of view I would have begged CCP to put in more ships, more modules more stuff in general and leave the shiny stuff for other games. EVE is about great gameplay and fun with friends not about shiny new graphics and the highest framerate etc.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:36:00 - [2] Was an ASCII dungeon so bad? Did we really need all these new fangled "graphics"?
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:39:00 - [3] Classic client has changed little since release (yes I was there) other than some UI improvements.
Gieron Middleton and Mercer LLP	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:42:00 - [4] Edited by: Gieron on 14/01/2009 14:49:56 I will let Raymond Chen explain this to you. EDIT: I may have jumped to conclusions here
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:43:00 - [5] Old engine is old. New graphics was needed and is desperately needed. Most of the game isn't PvP and with modern computers your better of performance wise, if you use the premium client. Graphics also improves immersion and enjoyment. Not everyone cares about these things, but most do. Even those that want performance over eye candy in highstress PvP situations.
FingerThief Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:48:00 - [6] The old client was not bad at all. I halfways admire CCP for the guts they have to actually lay hands on the client, the gfx engine etc and occasionally producing a small, medium or major f.u. Most companies I know from having played their mmo's just do not give a crap about evolving technology to make the game sweeter, faster etc. They care about keeping the status quo and adding subscribers, subscribers, subscribers. As to what we have begged for. You can presume that about 5% have begged for more stuff, another 5% have begged for more shiney stuff. CCP gave us both. To me, CCP pioneers a whole new genre of persitant universe. More stuff ? Nah ... max I can use are about 24 modules at the same time anyhow. Shinier (sp) stuff ? Sure ... why not. I am also happy with the way it looks but it's not "what could be !" anymore. Please note, I do not know how many ship classes there are right now, but when EVE came out ... we had 4 iirc, no Tech II, no faction or officer or factional warfares ships/loot. There IS a lot more stuff in the game then 5 years ago.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:49:00 - [7] There's a **** ton more ppl that would quit if they got rid of the new engine vs the tiny ammount of complainers that would quit if they got rid of the old engine. There's absolutly no logical sense to go backwards in technology, especially considering the new engine not only looks better but RUNS FASTER.
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Asestorian on 14/01/2009 15:01:06 Yes, we did need new graphics. Graphics have moved on a lot since the original client and it was starting to become very noticeable. CCP don't intend to let the game die any time soon, and if they want to continue attracting new customers they need to have a game with graphics that are up to the standard of the time. That EVE came out in 2003 isn't going to cut it for most people. Secondly, CCP really like shiny things. They have always been proud of the way their game looks and so it was only natural that they would update it to make sure it continued looking the best. Thirdly, the new graphics gave CCP the chance to upgrade the underlying engine. I think this, above all, is the most important part. Computers have gotten a lot more powerful and CCP were right to make a new engine that took advantage of this new power. The better they take advantage of modern hardware the better the game is going to run, which is good for everyone. None of this has stopped CCP adding new ships, fixing bugs, making the servers better, and all that other stuff. We got those things as well as a graphics engine and graphics that make use of technology designed and made after 2002. Edit: Also, it's important that station spinning looks as awesome as possible.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:57:00 - [9] ASCII eve would be awesome.
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:22:00 - [10] Im a bit upset about not being able to play eve anymore, but understand that this change was necessary. If they want to ask people to pay as much as WoW or other MMOs, they need to deliver a comparable product. I don`t care about graphics, but it`s required to draw in new subscribers. P.S. I ****ing love Dwarf Fort. In before Ralara.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Brea Lafail Im a bit upset about not being able to play eve anymore, but understand that this change was necessary. If they want to ask people to pay as much as WoW or other MMOs, they need to deliver a comparable product. I don`t care about graphics, but it`s required to draw in new subscribers. P.S. I ****ing love Dwarf Fort. Why would you not be able to play EVE anymore? As far as I understand, anything the classic client will work on can also run the Lite version of the Premium client when it's ready. And even if that weren't the case, a rig that will run the premium full client isn't exactly too beefy. If you love eve enough ,you can probably eventually put something together, right? :) -- What's your EVE New Year's Resolution for 2009?
Heliose Demintisivo	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:57:00 - [12] I disagree heavily with the devblog because of the following reasons. CCP assumes that 97% of people by the end of Q4 this year will have PERSONAL COMPUTERS SM3 COMPATABLE? Okay, thats fine. I'm sure everyone that loves eve will upgrade or GTFO; however, what about those that need to just change their skills out and have the classic client installed on their laptop? I have a SM2 comptatable laptop right now, which exempts me, but it would be nice to be able to launch it from something as small as the new netbooks if need be. -There are people out there that do not have desktops period (me) becuase they move more than once a year (me once again). -There are people that just dont plain have the money Honestly, if this negates my laptop from playing EVE i would consider playing different games as a result of my limited time to sit in front of my desktop =/. Why would you want to limit your playerbase's options when playing?
Heliose Demintisivo	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Heliose Demintisivo on 14/01/2009 16:01:39 Originally by: CCP Devblog "Step 1: In Apocrypha, March 10th, we discontinue support for ShaderModel 1, making ShaderModel 2 (GeForce FX (5 series) or ATi R300 series cards or compatible) the minimum requirement and discontinue the "Classic client" version of EVE, replacing it with "Premium Lite" Step 2: In the Winter Expansion 2009 we are considering discontinuing support for ShaderModel 2 and make the minimum specification ShaderModel 3(GeForce 6 class cards or ATi x1300 or compatible)" What dont you understand about changing the minimum specifications? Everything that works now (such as older PC's and laptops) will not be able to handle Shader Model 2 and especially Shader Model 3.
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 14/01/2009 16:30:04 Clearly I did not express my self correctly Of course going back is a no, no. And would kill most of the EVE subscriber base. I like CCP very much for moving forward and offering us a better and nicer game engine. Though an ASCII version of EVE would be wonderful What I was looking for was more an would you like CCP to go the route the seem to want to go, Shader Model 3 and more shiny stuff. I just don't see the point, shader model 2 I understand and I can only agree with but that next step makes me wonder if when the current graphics remain the same (planets and astroids might look a little better) would we really need to add even more shiny stuff or would we rather see better gameplay? I know one does not exclude the other and they are two seperate departments but still I'd rather have 3 cars then 1 Ferrari, sure it looks better and faster and all but it is not very practical on all but the best roads. The same goes for CCP's plans with shader model 3. It just doesn't make sense unless (and they will never do that) CCP enables people to change skills and check market orders via the web... There are so many reasons why I would use my old shader model 1 laptop to do things like that when I have no time to do anything more. I can try but I already know that the financial controller (sorry sweethart, but you are) will say, NO! to any plan where I buy an newer laptop only so I can update my skills in EVE, other then that the thing is still perfectly fine be it a little older.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Heliose Demintisivo Edited by: Heliose Demintisivo on 14/01/2009 16:05:20 I disagree heavily with the devblog because of the following reasons. CCP assumes that 97% of people by the end of Q4 this year will have PERSONAL COMPUTERS SM3 COMPATABLE? You assume that they're assuming. They already know that the number is about 95%. It is not at all unreasonable to expect that number to increase by 2% over twelve months. Quote: Okay, thats fine. I'm sure everyone that loves eve will upgrade or GTFO; however, what about those that need to just change their skills out and have the classic client installed on their laptop? Guess they'll wait until they get home. Life is tough that way. I don't see how this is a big deal. Train long skills when you're going to be away for a couple days. Quote: Why would you want to limit your playerbase's options when playing? Why should they continue the exorbitant costs of maintaining a second and separate client just to appease the remaining 3% of the userbase for the brief period (months? a couple years at most?) until that final 3% finally gets up to speed?
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Ralitge boyter current graphics remain the same (planets and astroids might look a little better) would we really need to add even more shiny stuff or would we rather see better gameplay? There is no way they would be able to improve certain game mechanics and introduce certain potential levels of physics (we can hope!) in the game while still being tethered to the need to make sure every change can fit into the limitations of an ancient client for 3% of the users (especially since that 3% will EVENTUALLY upgrade). Do figure improvements necessarily directly involve SM3? Not likely. But clearly whatever their plans do involve require cars that tend to have the same capabilities that come along with the generation that also support SM3. There is more involved here than just making sure ships have pretty paint jobs. Quote: I'd rather have 3 cars then 1 Ferrari, sure it looks better and faster and all but it is not very practical on all but the best roads. Right, because driving three cars is completely practical. :P Quote: The same goes for CCP's plans with shader model 3. It just doesn't make sense unless (and they will never do that) CCP enables people to change skills and check market orders via the web... Who said they won't? Hell, they are playing around with an EVE-based social network ala facebook/myspace and a number of other curious tools. It's not unreasonable to think that some day you'd be able to log into eve's website and make some direct changes and administration. Quote: I can try but I already know that the financial controller (sorry sweethart, but you are) will say, NO! Well, I can't offer relationship advice but if you work hard for a living and bring home money, I'd say setting something aside for you to continue your recreational activities that allow you to remain mentally stable and refreshed so you can go back out and earn that paycheck is entirely reasonable and entirely your business. Quote: to any plan where I buy an newer laptop only so I can update my skills in EVE, other then that the thing is still perfectly fine be it a little older. This sounds like more of a reason to implement limited out-of-game skill management than to waste resources maintaining an old client.
Neamus	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:46:00 - [17] The premium client is definitely an improvement over the classic client. I have fond memories of classic but I wouldn't want to go back there. Its a shame that some people will be forced to spend money but if you're still using an SM1 card its probably about time for an upgrade... And its possible to get some amazing kit for very little money at the moment.
David Grogan Gallente The Motley Crew	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:55:00 - [18] personally i run a 4acs at same time but all in classic mode while one laptop can run one premium or 1 classic ac and the pc can run one premium OR 2 classic (my setup) and one older laptop can only run classic it will not meet the new minimum specs in premium the memory leak from docking/undock is far worse than it is in classic this is why i choose to run my ac in classic mode. most older but not ancient pcs with integrated graphics cannot support pixel shader 2.0 let alone 3.0... this effectivle cuts off alot of players and cuts out alot of alt accounts too as players that have a good new fast pc use their older pc in classic mode for their alts. cut out alts and u cut out revenue
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Blane Xero on 14/01/2009 17:13:03 Originally by: David Grogan personally i run a 4acs at same time but all in classic mode while one laptop can run one premium or 1 classic ac and the pc can run one premium OR 2 classic (my setup) and one older laptop can only run classic it will not meet the new minimum specs in premium the memory leak from docking/undock is far worse than it is in classic this is why i choose to run my ac in classic mode. most older but not ancient pcs with integrated graphics cannot support pixel shader 2.0 let alone 3.0... this effectivle cuts off alot of players and cuts out alot of alt accounts too as players that have a good new fast pc use their older pc in classic mode for their alts. cut out alts and u cut out revenue Yes, because Premium Lite will definatly have memory leaks and current memory leaks in premium will not get plugged, You're assumptions are completely correct. Edit: also anyone still "Gaming" with an integrated graphics card needs the "Cleanse with fire" treatment.
Harrent Caldari The Leathernecks	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:19:00 - [20] Edited by: Harrent on 14/01/2009 17:23:05 Originally by: Qordel You assume that they're assuming. They already know that the number is about 95%. They *know* what??? Originally by: DevBlog We *estimate* that about 95% Yea... I estimate that in 5 years you will be a millioniare. Congratulations, by your logic you just won the lottery. Quote: Quote: Okay, thats fine. I'm sure everyone that loves eve will upgrade or GTFO; however, what about those that need to just change their skills out and have the classic client installed on their laptop? Guess they'll wait until they get home. Life is tough that way. I don't see how this is a big deal. Train long skills when you're going to be away for a couple days. Thats like saying, "Okay, lets start a buisness but not adhere to any of the customers needs or desires. Hell, lets not even let them have the OPTION to play for short periods of time or dynamically update their character during moves, downtime, or different lifestyles." Your buisness mindset sucks. Nuff said. Quote: Quote: Why would you want to limit your playerbase's options when playing? Quote: Why should they continue the exorbitant costs of maintaining a second and separate client just to appease the remaining 3% of the userbase for the brief period (months? a couple years at most?) until that final 3% finally gets up to speed? I don't. I'm just saying, why can't they simplify their end by adhereing to the same minimum requirements as before? Like some of the posts above have said, once people go to Premium, its hard to go back. Why not give them a good reason to (as they already have) instead of force feeding it? As i said before, horrible buisness practices are performed by those throwing things down customers throats. You should always allow customers a cheaper option at a cost to themselves. 2ó have been added to this thread.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Harrent I don't. I'm just saying, why can't they simplify their end by adhereing to the same minimum requirements as before? They did as much as possible to do so, now they are trying a different approach, at the cost of some customers who are gaming on machines that embarrass technology museums Originally by: Harrent Like some of the posts above have said, once people go to Premium, its hard to go back. Why not give them a good reason to (as they already have) instead of force feeding it? They did. They gave us a better looking client which also got rid of most of the bottleneck with CPU's. Now they are going to simplify it a bit so it still looks decent (Like classic) the only downside is, people with graphics cards older than 2 years need to upgrade. And before you say "What about laptops" i'll simply say there are a large portion of laptops "Designed" to be gaming platforms that will not feel this change. (Again older "Gaming laptops" feel the pinch) Originally by: Harrent As i said before, horrible buisness practices are performed by those throwing things down customers throats. You should always allow customers a cheaper option at a cost to themselves. They still are. They could have just cut you off altogether and forced premium down your neck, but they are still spending THEIR time and THEIR money to do a bit of give and take, they take away your ability t play on shadermodel 1 (and possably eventually 2) graphics cards but they GIVE you a (still not as demanding as premium) client, meaning its still not a massive jump. Christ they are even warning you 9(?) months ahead of schedule, can you not make ú50 / $100 or whatever native currency relative to those numbers in 9 months? And if your on a laptop, chances are you will have had to upgrade it by then anyway, its how laptops go. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Harrent I estimate that in 5 years you will be a millioniare. Congratulations, by your logic you just won the lottery. I'm sure the numbers out of your ass are more accurate than a company that has been tracking their numbers and whose business depends on knowing them. Today, 95% of players meet these requirements. They know this; it isn't a guess. Quote: Quote: what about those that need to just change their skills out and have the classic client installed on their laptop? Guess they'll wait until they get home. Life is tough that way. I don't see how this is a big deal. Train long skills when you're going to be away for a couple days. Thats like saying, "Okay, lets start a buisness but not adhere to any of the customers needs or desires. Hell, lets not even let them have the OPTION to play for short periods of time or dynamically update their character during moves, downtime, or different lifestyles." No, it's like a business saying "we can not justify the expense of maintaining additional clients for such a miniscule userbase, so we will discontinue it, eventually". If they believed a significant number did not meet the requirements, they wouldn't make such a move. As much as you selfishly want this to affect 80% of the userbase, it doesn't. The cost to benefit ratio for continuing to provide for 3% to 5% (and the number would be reduced even more as time passes and more come up to pace) simply is not there. YOU are the one making unreasonable demands. Is it unfortunate? Certainly. Does it suck for those handful of people? It sure does. That it really sucks for you does not obligate CCP to bend over backwards to provide a client to such a small group of users that could just as easily upgrade (if not immediately, then eventually). Quote: Your buisness mindset sucks. Nuff said. No, your expectations are ridiculous. Quote: Quote: Why should they continue the exorbitant costs of maintaining a second and separate client just to appease the remaining 3% of the userbase for the brief period (months? a couple years at most?) until that final 3% finally gets up to speed? I don't. I'm just saying, why can't they simplify their end by adhereing to the same minimum requirements as before? That logic does not make any sense. How are the minimum requirements supposed to remain at the same minimal level they are now? If they could provide the premium client to users meeting those minimal requirements, don't you think they'd do that? The situation, quite simply, is this: They can continue wasting resources on a legacy client to serve 3% of their userbase or they can increase their minimal requirements a bit and focus on a single multi-platform client. Quote: Like some of the posts above have said, once people go to Premium, its hard to go back. Why not give them a good reason to (as they already have) instead of force feeding it? A good reason such as what? Better graphics. Better performance. Also, you won't be able to play on classic. That seems like a pretty good reason right there. And how are they "forcing" anyone? They're giving you a YEAR advanced notice that they are considering removing support of the legacy client. That's about as not-forced as you can be. Quote: As i said before, horrible buisness practices are performed by those throwing things down customers throats. You're right. Proper business practice is to continue throwing good money after bad for a very minor subset of your player base that will eventually upgrade over time anyway.

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