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A question to all you MD vets

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Najinda Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:32:00 - [1] I've been lurking on here for the last few days and I must say that the complexity and depth of this player driven market is amazing. What is also amazing is the detail that you guys go into. Honestly if your this good at a virtual market are you also making money in the real work markets? If not WHY NOT? I understand that you may not have the capital to start investing and i would assume that RL Markets are fairly more complex but if you guys put the same effort you do into the EVE markets you surely would be able to make some money. just a thought. keep up the good work guys. -Naj
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.01.14 17:50:00 - [2] Some of us are, to my knowledge, actually in the financial field. Most notably Hexxx. Myself, I'm retired and enjoying my investments (which have not disappeared) as well as some small stipend from my part time job/full time avocation (not eve!). However that being said, what makes eve work is not close to what works outside of eve. Being smart and able to apply yourself are the only similarities. And Eve is "recreational" even if the Market area seems "less fun". My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free?
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Najinda I understand that you may not have the capital to start investing and i would assume that RL Markets are fairly more complex but if you guys put the same effort you do into the EVE markets you surely would be able to make some money. Yeah, RL money can be a drag. Personally, I have about as much coming in as going out, atm. When you're holding down a F/T job and raising a son single-handedly, the reality is you barely have enough time to unwind, let alone do a P/T job. RL trading is also not as simple as EvE's economy. There are, for instance, few things that cause the markets to crash here (save the odd manipulation or 'expansion'; which can be easily read and thus profited from). RL trades are on a different level than the EvE playing field as it is intensely more complex in almost every aspect. Research, for instance, can be overwhelming and extensive. And then, one day, can be superfluous due to unexpected losses, bad news/PR and the like. Oh, and 'HI SHAR!' o/ Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Raaz Satik	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:27:00 - [4] In EVE it's quiet easy to make money with persistance alone. In RL that is almost never the case.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:08:00 - [5] 42
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:14:00 - [6] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 42 Since I'm still here that's obviously not the answer
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:33:00 - [7] But in RL people aren't as lazy as they are in the game. In Eve people will pay 50% mark up just because they can't be bothered to fly 4 jumps. In RL would you pay 1.5x gas price to save yourself driving 1 mile? You could be a genius, but can you still score the great job?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.01.14 19:43:00 - [8] Originally by: cosmoray In RL would you pay 1.5x gas price to save yourself driving 1 mile? Of course I'd love to be able to go to my local gas station, pay for 500 gallons at the low end of the Elliot wave and then later on sell it back to him/them at the height of an Elliot cycle. Mind you, I don't think I'm allowed to just show up with a pick up and 10+ 50 gallon drums on the back for my yearly needs. No pre-ordering petrol!
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: cosmoray In RL would you pay 1.5x gas price to save yourself driving 1 mile? Of course I'd love to be able to go to my local gas station, pay for 500 gallons at the low end of the Elliot wave and then later on sell it back to him/them at the height of an Elliot cycle. Mind you, I don't think I'm allowed to just show up with a pick up and 10+ 50 gallon drums on the back for my yearly needs. No pre-ordering petrol! Damn pesky environmental laws
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:44:00 - [10] I'm an analyst IRL, so I guess I have some connection between EVE and RL. One of the biggest differences between playing the market in EVE and RL is if you fail on a trade in EVE, you just blow up a couple of mission rats to get your money back. Where can I do that in RL? hehe Risk in the real world has lasting consequences. Not so much in EVE. Most obvious point, and it has already been mentioned, RL markets are a lot more complicated than in EVE. Probably at least 100x as complicated. --------------------
Drakus Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:25:00 - [11] added to everything everyone else has said In eve, market manipulation = profit. In rl, = butzex
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:52:00 - [12] Probably repeating a bit of what was said, but EVE is a game, RL is fun. I'm a software developer by day and one of the last things I want to do is go home and program. Similarly I also enjoy a bit of rockclimbing in my spare time, and while I may be pretty good at it, I'm not running out and becoming a professional rock-climber. On top of that, RL also has so many more variables than EVE. On an aside though, I'll happily admit I used my experience running Dusk Blade (while nothing monumentally noteworthy within EVE) as roughly 20% of a successful job application, where I basically said "I play EVE, I did this in EVE, this is why it's relevant to the job". Score one against the crowd who say "OMG playing games is a waste of time, why don't you go out and do something useful"
Waseem The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:02:00 - [13] Edited by: Waseem on 14/01/2009 23:02:41 By day I stare at databases and at night I unwind in Eve. I don't trade in real life because my job is relatively safe in terms of I make X income and have Y expenses. I don't have to worry about someone with a hundred or thousand times my money going out and manipulating the type of car I want to drive or the clothes I want to wear. At the same time that is also not something I am capable of doing with lower priced goods. Like a previous post I have used skills I had to build tools for myself in EVE. I have demoed these tools for co workers and taken other hobbies into the work place to help secure that better position within the company. My most recent job was offered to me over everyone else because of skills and techniques I learned running a Machinima website. None of my competitors had demonstrated their knowledge and skill set as I had. Adding to that I sold the site off for profit and made profit during the time it was running greatly assisted me also. I am actually pretty proud when I talk about those accomplishments in the business setting. I talk about hits per day, transfer rates, videos watched, and revenue generated. All things the business world understands, then when asked what it was I was doing they are shocked to find out. They are even more shocked to find out that I considered it a hobby and not something to make money at.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:20:00 - [14] I could never be a Sloany. For one thing, I'm an engineer. I like to design and build things, to work with my hands and to contribute to society a bit. For another, I have a strong distaste for Sloanies.* While I could never do it as a profession I do like to screw around with high finance. I get into debates with family about there investments on a pretty regular basis. Sadly, I'm poor and at MIT on scholarships. The few grand a year I don't eat goes into rebuilding my 'stang so I can't exactly invest my own funds. I do put a decent amount of time into finding loopholes in bank promotions and transaction systems but I don't think that's what you meant. I actually just got my 1099 from BoA and apparently I earned $852.24 with them last year and a few other banks owe me 1099's. Pretty good for a guy who never has more than $3,000 in liquid assets. Essentially, I like to play around with high finance but I'm a skint engineer so I get that out of my system in EvE. I suspect that as my RL assets grow to point where I can meaningfully invest them I'll put a lot less time into this aspect of the game but that's years away. *The Sloan School of Management handles management and finance at MIT and have very close ties to Harvard. Among undergrads, they're pretty widely despised in part because of their egos but more because their classes are ridiculously easy at a school otherwise famous for breaking students. The workload is light, the grading easy and the material less than challenging yet at the end of the day they make more and have more power than the engineers.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:28:00 - [15] A key thing to remember is that Eve is a lot easier than RL. There's so much margin on everything that one doesn't need to look hard for a profitable opportunity. My favorite RL example is floor mats for cars. Due to the manufacture volumes involved, it is worth paying some engineers to shave a few grams from the floor mats in a car. Absolutely not worth the effort in Eve.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:41:00 - [16] In Eve there isn't really such thing as a liability or expense. The closest you get to this would be: * Lab/Manufacturing fees * Monthly office rental fees * Broker/Transaction fees In RL you have mortgages, food costs, education, utilities, leases, fines, etc If I got my pay every week and knew I had zero liabilities I would absolutely be putting money into passive operations such as stocks/bonds etc on the RL market. Unfortunately in this day and age of RL generally the following mathemtatical calculation takes affect: income - liabilities = free cash most of the time liabilities match or exceed income which makes free cash a negative
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Ricdic In Eve there isn't really such thing as a liability or expense. The closest you get to this would be: * Lab/Manufacturing fees * Monthly office rental fees * Broker/Transaction fees In RL you have mortgages, food costs, education, utilities, leases, fines, etc If I got my pay every week and knew I had zero liabilities I would absolutely be putting money into passive operations such as stocks/bonds etc on the RL market. Unfortunately in this day and age of RL generally the following mathemtatical calculation takes affect: income - liabilities = free cash most of the time liabilities match or exceed income which makes free cash a negative income - liabilities = free cash - wife's spending wife's spending > free cash free cash doesn't exist!
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.15 03:46:00 - [18] I count my wife's spending as a liability hence why it wasn't part of the calculation
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:14:00 - [19] To find a women you need time & money: women = time x money time is money: women = money x money women = (money)sq money is the root of all problems money = sq root problems women = (sq root of problems)sq women = problems
Forceflow Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:16:00 - [20] Originally by: cosmoray To find a women you need time & money: women = time x money time is money: women = money x money women = (money)sq money is the root of all problems money = sq root problems women = (sq root of problems)sq women = problems I remember another version. money is the root of all evil. Therefore women = evil.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.01.15 04:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Forceflow lust for money is the root of all evil. Therefore women = evil. Can't forget the lust factor. On money or women. Or at least I can't. My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.01.15 05:09:00 - [22] I buy waffles ok? I may not be MD vet or have a degree in accounting but I buy waffles whenever the vets tell me to.
Confuzer Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:24:00 - [23] People say this to me every day. Biggest IRL problems for my way of trade are: - Much stuff looses it's value in RL too fast. - Stocking stuff in RL costs ALOT. - I don't find it challenging. That's why I do it in eve, it's a game to me. My father in law resells furniture which he buys in Asia. Profit margin is amazing (on an average day he walks with 20k+ euro's in his pocket, from which 10k is profit), but there is no depth in it.
Dagda Morr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:37:00 - [24] I'm not a big trader or anything, I make enough to fund the rest of my playing but the reason I wouldn't do anything like this in RL is risk. If I loose everything in eve I still keep my house, my pension and my savings. Eve is structured to make trade easy - not like the real world. The tax rate in the UK would mean that I would loose nearly 40% of any income I have from a 2nd job (which is what this would be - to not declare the income would risk too much!) making it not worthwhile.
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:07:00 - [25] The closest thing to the EVE market in the real world is the stock market--negligible or non-existent costs to hold your purchases, and extremely-well-publicized price data for both buy and sell. There are a couple different exchanges to choose from, but that's true in Eve, as well (Amarr vs. Jita, for example). The problem comes when you realize a few things: 1) Market caps in the b-b-b-b-billions make it exceedingly difficult to practically manipulate the stock of any non-trivial company without insane amounts of capital. 2) Nobody needs a share of AT&T in order to eat tonight. You need a Cap Recharger II in order to play tonight. 3) Stock values are based on not only supply and demand for this ephemeral "stock" thing, but the underlying business' viability. Even if you are an employee at the highest levels of the company, this can be nearly-impossible to judge (ask people who worked at Enron). 4) (On a personal note,) I've invested in the stock market before. I turned $1,000 into over $2,000 in less than a year when I was quite young, and actually won an award for my performance in a statewide competition called "The Stock Market Game", where we bought and sold real stocks using fake money. So it was with a great deal of confidence that I purchased over $2,000 worth of what was then called VA Linux Systems... at $63 per share. I now invest solely in broad-spectrum, no-load mutual funds. MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral ~~compression~~expansion! WTF?
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:53:00 - [26] Edited by: nether void on 15/01/2009 15:53:54 Originally by: Ricdic In Eve there isn't really such thing as a liability or expense. The closest you get to this would be: * Lab/Manufacturing fees * Monthly office rental fees * Broker/Transaction fees In RL you have mortgages, food costs, education, utilities, leases, fines, etc If I got my pay every week and knew I had zero liabilities I would absolutely be putting money into passive operations such as stocks/bonds etc on the RL market. Unfortunately in this day and age of RL generally the following mathematical calculation takes affect: income - liabilities = free cash most of the time liabilities match or exceed income which makes free cash a negative I would say this is probably the biggest difference between RL and EVE. In the real world, everyone is trying to come up with some way to force you to pay some new fee, tax, or mandatory spend on something (car insurance). I'm in the process of cutting out as much of the crap I can, because I'm tired of paying out so much of my money every month on services (cable, cell phone, interenet, home phone, movies by mail, etc). Want to save a load of cash? If you are a two car family, one of you figure out how to commute using public transit, and then get rid of the second car. You save a fortune because the car industry is sucking out a lot more of your income than you think: - Car payment - Insurance - Gas - Car maintenance - Registration fees - Traffic tickets - Traffic school Add that all up, and you'll probably get sick. Ride the bus instead. Or you can do like I'm doing and right local train services. You might even get lucky and get corporate subsidy for public transit, which reduces the cost to like $15/mo. lol Down from $4-500/mo for that car. As a side effect, you get to utilize that time to do something productive like studying for a degree or certification. Or just use it to read a book for fun! Commute time is wasted time if you're driving.
Havok Pierce Gallente The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Ricdic * Broker/Transaction fees I read that as "Brothel/Transaction fees" >.>; Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Ricdic I count my wife's spending as a liability hence why it wasn't part of the calculation I got glares from my wife when calculating our new budget when she was pregnant. I finally gave up the argument that the kid was a liability when I was about to sleep on the couch that night.
NupetietVer Neuro Cartographic Services	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:04:00 - [29] So easy to buy a Prophecy at 19K Isk, and sell it for 19 Mil Isk. So hard to buy a used $5,000 car and sell it for $10,000. Same with real estate. If they made peddling RL properties/vehicles as easy as Eve, then i would be a billionair, close to in-game. ;)
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Ricdic I count my wife's spending as a liability hence why it wasn't part of the calculation I got glares from my wife when calculating our new budget when she was pregnant. I finally gave up the argument that the kid was a liability when I was about to sleep on the couch that night. LOL. They're a liability of luxury. I'm not sure you could count them as an investment. I hatched a hair-brained scheme that would never take off. Have some other well off guy get your woman pregnant on purpose, so you could raise the kids and have someone else pay for it all. lol

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