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Cyrus Deacon	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Cyrus Deacon on 17/01/2009 01:00:24 I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit. Or why people (especially in jita) will see a good way for them to make profit but for some reason not want to, and undercut so low to destroy any profit margain..... it just baffles me. I usually stay out of jita by the way. it just makes no sense. It keeps getting worse and worse and the game progresses, ive been around for about 2 years and keep seeing profits going lower and lower. It would be impossible for a newb to make isk in this game through industry. could you imagine not having trade,broker relations,production efficiency, and mass production to lvl 5 AND not having a fully researched bpo. You have to have, damn near all of them things to even make the smallest profit....
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:03:00 - [2] Selling items, outside the hubs, in a niche market, might do the trick for youngsters. But generally, and especially, T1 production is almost not worth doing except some cruisers/battleships.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:25:00 - [3] You know what else doesn't make sense? Pricing minerals as "free" 10% for Returning Customers
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:32:00 - [4] I was making 15-30% profits, on a regular basis, with no trade skills and imperfect production skills. Ask Brock, he's my auditor.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:33:00 - [5] Its true, although I haven't sniffed around since the last bond offering. 10% for Returning Customers
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.01.17 01:51:00 - [6] Jung has taken over, and he has trade skills, so I can only speak for what I did before... but the point stands: You don't need trade skills, nor perfect production, to profit from trading.
Breaker77	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Brock Nelson You know what else doesn't make sense? Pricing minerals as "free" I love buying free minerals. I do as often as I can.
alexxr Gallente Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:29:00 - [8] i am in a director Traders Academy which caters to newer players and i don't think your correct, i have seen that it is easy for one with low skills in trading and such to easily make at least 10% profit on things and even more when they take them to jita at times or vice versa. so i think your assesment is incomplete as if you look around their are plenty of ways for new players to make money with industry. (note i have only played for about 6 months so i am rather new as well)
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:33:00 - [9] Oh where to start: Quote: I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit. %'s isn't all that's important. Personally for a manufacturer the gross profit is more important. I value my manufacturing time at about 2.5k ISK per minute. But look at this too. Rigs manufacture at 4-20 million, sell (at minimum) for 5 million (up to 24 million). If only 3% was made on a 4 million ISK manufacture that's about 120k ISK profit. A rig takes 8 minutes to manufacture. That's 15k per minute. I wish all manufacturing was worth that much. Quote: Or why people (especially in jita) will see a good way for them to make profit but for some reason not want to, and undercut so low to destroy any profit margain..... it just baffles me. Does that mean they're doing the right thing or not? Because if you're baffled by what their doing then it means you don't have a clue, rather than they don't. A soldier is usually baffled by the enemies movement shortly before catching a bullet between the eyes. Quote: I usually stay out of jita by the way. it just makes no sense. It keeps getting worse and worse and the game progresses, ive been around for about 2 years and keep seeing profits going lower and lower. It would be impossible for a newb to make isk in this game through industry. could you imagine not having trade,broker relations,production efficiency, and mass production to lvl 5 AND not having a fully researched bpo. You have to have, damn near all of them things to even make the smallest profit.... I took 4 new characters (noobs in terms of SP) on my accounts and turned them into industrial packhorses at a month and a half a piece. With my funding I was able to get them all manufacturing week-long batches to turn a profit. With a small amount (read: 100 million ISK, a battleship for any noob mission runner and really just pocket change) I could've turned one character into an equally efficient manufacturing machine. Those 4 packhorses earnt about 16-20 billion combined in 6 months. It's not hard.
Sagacious Z Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Cyrus Deacon Edited by: Cyrus Deacon on 17/01/2009 01:00:24 ...It keeps getting worse and worse and the game progresses, ive been around for about 2 years and keep seeing profits going lower and lower. It would be impossible for a newb to make isk in this game through industry..... Did you stop to think there are more palyers now and thus more competition and thus that = less profit margin? So that means the market is working! In case you have not noticed or follow business news, the real world economy is in recession and it is hard to make real world "ISK". Circuit City stores just went belly up, leaving Best Buy as the main player in that niche. Some EVE players choose to take slim profit or take losses. They are trying to drive new market traders out of the business (just like Best Buy helped drive Circuit City out of business). Once a player puts in a lot of time and makes no money trading, they will go to mining or courier work or something else. Eventually, that allows other traders to increase profit margin again. Re the ".01" ISK wars, I truly wish that CCP would make market order changes much stiffer than 100.00 ISK, like some percentage of the value of the potential sale. It would discourage rapid price changes, improve game play as it frees up server resources, and require players to be more precise in what the place orders at or modify orders to, thus making the game more challenging re market orders.

Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:40:00 - [11] It's not the percentages so much as take-home. I sometimes trade stuff with only a 4-5% margin after taxes -- so long as I think I can turn it around every 5 to 10 minutes. And yeah, only vestigial trade skills on this character. I am, after all, Achura. Some of my alts have no trade skills whatsoever -- and still pull in hudreds of M a week. As far as 3% -- you're probably computing profit using mineral sell orders in Jita. While that's an excellent way to look at worst case profits you aren't seeing the value in converting minerals sourced much cheaper into sell order pricing. And in conclusion, all you need to be competitive in manufacture is PE V and the ability to buy BPCs off of contracts. With such a low barrier to entry and rising GTC costs is it any wonder competition is fierce?
Forceflow Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:53:00 - [12] I have a trader alt that hasn't had a second of training since she was created. Yet she happens to be making more money then my main. Go figure.
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.18 08:58:00 - [13] I think the OP was talking more about manufacturing than trading to be honest.
Coronae Borealis	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Cyrus Deacon Edited by: Cyrus Deacon on 17/01/2009 01:00:24 I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit. Or why people (especially in jita) will see a good way for them to make profit but for some reason not want to, and undercut so low to destroy any profit margain..... it just baffles me. I usually stay out of jita by the way. it just makes no sense. It keeps getting worse and worse and the game progresses, ive been around for about 2 years and keep seeing profits going lower and lower. It would be impossible for a newb to make isk in this game through industry. could you imagine not having trade,broker relations,production efficiency, and mass production to lvl 5 AND not having a fully researched bpo. You have to have, damn near all of them things to even make the smallest profit.... So you never realised that you could do something else instead of your current business? You do realise that best profits are made in business where isn't much competition, right? This isn't solo game, this is MMORPG with quite realistic market so don't expect to get a patent for your business...
Speculative Sally	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Brock Nelson You know what else doesn't make sense? Pricing minerals as "free" But if I mined them myself they're free lol!!
Lee Liste	Posted - 2009.01.18 11:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Speculative Sally Originally by: Brock Nelson You know what else doesn't make sense? Pricing minerals as "free" But if I mined them myself they're free lol!!
KtoJest Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:07:00 - [17] Quote: I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit so i can buy them and resell them for 'their true value' :)
Andrea Erlang Caldari Erlang Biolabs	Posted - 2009.01.18 16:28:00 - [18] Sometimes, if I have an item in another station, I'll undercut by about 20-30% of the whole margin, just to see if anyone feels like undercutting, to my surprise, some people will undercut me, even though they have about 20 units of the said item, so they'll lose somewhere from 30-50 million on some items just because they didn't have the patience to wait for someone to buy out my single item. It's kinda funny to watch to be honest.
Hesod Adee KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.18 20:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Cyrus Deacon Edited by: Cyrus Deacon on 17/01/2009 01:00:24 I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit. Because a profit is a profit. And traders care about volume, not the profit margin. Quote: Or why people (especially in jita) will see a good way for them to make profit but for some reason not want to, and undercut so low to destroy any profit margain..... Because there are markets where a lot of stuff comes from drops, not manufacturing. When that happens, the mission runners generally want to dump it quickly to free up order slots, so they drop they make sure they have the lowest price. Or they simply have no clue about trading because they aren't traders.
Hesod Adee KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.18 20:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Andrea Erlang Sometimes, if I have an item in another station, I'll undercut by about 20-30% of the whole margin, just to see if anyone feels like undercutting, to my surprise, some people will undercut me, even though they have about 20 units of the said item, so they'll lose somewhere from 30-50 million on some items just because they didn't have the patience to wait for someone to buy out my single item. It's kinda funny to watch to be honest. I've noticed that this happens quite a bit in Villore with all the Gallente militia people selling the loot they got from PvP.

nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:30:00 - [21] Two things have made producing T1 almost pointless: - Trade - Buy orders With both of these things you can get items at below cost of production. This puts way too much pressure on production. Trading is too easy. --------------------
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:49:00 - [22] Originally by: nether void Two things have made producing T1 almost pointless: - Trade - Buy orders With both of these things you can get items at below cost of production. This puts way too much pressure on production. Trading is too easy. You forgot Quote: Originally by: Brock Nelson Pricing minerals as "free"
Ashanty	Posted - 2009.01.19 11:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Sagacious Z Some EVE players choose to take slim profit or take losses. They are trying to drive new market traders out of the business (just like Best Buy helped drive Circuit City out of business). Once a player puts in a lot of time and makes no money trading, they will go to mining or courier work or something else. Eventually, that allows other traders to increase profit margin again. This is what ppl seem to think but its not true. As soon as market becomes scarcer of manufacturers and thus profit margins go up there are instantly new or old manufacturers back in the area again. The difference between your real world analogy and eve is that no one gets put out of business. They just go do something else until the market is again profitable, or they go somewhere else to manufacture or they manufacture smth else for a brief time. Also another thing showing you are wrong is that once you find a hub where there are no items for sale at all. You make some and put em up for smth like 25% more then average price. You might manage to make some nice isk there but rather quickly someone comes with a batch of ALOT of those items and undercut you, the single only competitor, from like 25% above normal prices to maybe 1%. I mean... Is he trying to drive me the only competition out? Being two manufacturers doing something at a hub is rare but ppl don't give a damn it seems. So I start undercutting this guy with 0.1 isk over and over until I get everything sold so I can move on and invest in something more profitable. In the end I made more selling 1 of my items in maybe a day, before he came there, then he did selling 20 of his which probably will take him more then a week, especially considering there are now 2-3 other late manufacturers trying to sell their items for some 1-3% profit. I watch market closely so when his 20 items are sold out I can get back there, I also notice even if he is alone selling the items he does not pull the prices up again.. And yes I think a problem is some ppl consider their mined minerals as free, you see that when ppl sell items under the manufacturing price considering mineral cost. Thats rather stupid as simply selling the minerals would yield a higher profit.
Jonas Oneida Caldari Independent Galactic Network	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Ashanty ... hub where there are no items for sale at all. You make some and put em up for smth like 25% more then average price. You might manage to make some nice isk there but rather quickly someone comes with a batch of ALOT of those items and undercut you, the single only competitor, from like 25% above normal prices to maybe 1%. I mean... Is he trying to drive me the only competition out? Being two manufacturers doing something at a hub is rare but ppl don't give a damn it seems. So I start undercutting this guy with 0.1 isk over and over until I get everything sold so I can move on and invest in something more profitable. In the end I made more selling 1 of my items in maybe a day, before he came there, then he did selling 20 of his which probably will take him more then a week, especially considering there are now 2-3 other late manufacturers trying to sell their items for some 1-3% profit. I watch market closely so when his 20 items are sold out I can get back there, I also notice even if he is alone selling the items he does not pull the prices up again.. Yes, what is this lunacy? I bought a guy's entire stock and sold it within 20 minutes yesterday. I made 300%. Now, today, he has another batch up there... what is he thinking? I will continue to buy it all and resell it, of course, but what the **** is going through this guy's head? I hate to say it, but it doesn't sound like human behaviour to me... I hope there are no bots fiddling with the market in Eve!
BeBop Lula	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Ashanty Originally by: Sagacious Z Some EVE players choose to take slim profit or take losses. They are trying to drive new market traders out of the business (just like Best Buy helped drive Circuit City out of business). Once a player puts in a lot of time and makes no money trading, they will go to mining or courier work or something else. Eventually, that allows other traders to increase profit margin again. This is what ppl seem to think but its not true. As soon as market becomes scarcer of manufacturers and thus profit margins go up there are instantly new or old manufacturers back in the area again. The difference between your real world analogy and eve is that no one gets put out of business. They just go do something else until the market is again profitable, or they go somewhere else to manufacture or they manufacture smth else for a brief time. Also another thing showing you are wrong is that once you find a hub where there are no items for sale at all. You make some and put em up for smth like 25% more then average price. You might manage to make some nice isk there but rather quickly someone comes with a batch of ALOT of those items and undercut you, the single only competitor, from like 25% above normal prices to maybe 1%. I mean... Is he trying to drive me the only competition out? Being two manufacturers doing something at a hub is rare but ppl don't give a damn it seems. So I start undercutting this guy with 0.1 isk over and over until I get everything sold so I can move on and invest in something more profitable. In the end I made more selling 1 of my items in maybe a day, before he came there, then he did selling 20 of his which probably will take him more then a week, especially considering there are now 2-3 other late manufacturers trying to sell their items for some 1-3% profit. I watch market closely so when his 20 items are sold out I can get back there, I also notice even if he is alone selling the items he does not pull the prices up again.. And yes I think a problem is some ppl consider their mined minerals as free, you see that when ppl sell items under the manufacturing price considering mineral cost. Thats rather stupid as simply selling the minerals would yield a higher profit. I think a lot of the time large sell orders at only a small amount above the region average is due to intra-region sellers. They are buying at Jita and then selling locally. They are moving large volumes with small mark up so that the goods more quickly and they are not instantly undercut by the locals. They still make profits and I'm certain they would actually encourage the locals to buy up the goods to force the price back up.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.19 15:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Frenden Dax Originally by: nether void Two things have made producing T1 almost pointless: - Trade - Buy orders With both of these things you can get items at below cost of production. This puts way too much pressure on production. Trading is too easy. You forgot Quote: Originally by: Brock Nelson Pricing minerals as "free" True. Also rat loot sold to buy orders. ... Actually without the rat loot, buy orders would be hit pretty hard.
Dani SP Caldari Rupture Farms Mining	Posted - 2009.01.19 19:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Dani SP on 19/01/2009 19:29:49 Edited by: Dani SP on 19/01/2009 19:29:19 you make no sense, people does. Have you ever thought about the HUGE inflation in eve? It would kill whichever real life economy... lol. You're arguing a 3% margin is ****... maybe you want a 4000%??? That's what happened with Expanded Cargohold I till this weekend. A bunch of dudes were selling Exp. Carg. I at 40.000ISK , about 7 dudes involved in a 0.01ISK war. Ridiculous since this item is worth about 1000isk. I bought 3000 exp cargos in sobaseki and moved them to jita (1jump) added a sell order for 17.000 ISK and voila, a dude bought them all from me (obviously one of those dudes involved in the 0.01 war). I again owned him by adding more sell orders and he kept buying so I earned a +1700% margin, and about 48millions profit (51-3). GREAT!!! Im telling you something. For personal reasons I wont let Expanded Cargohold Is to be more expensive that 3000ISK, so all those "market gurus" can trade with another item LOL. Daniel, 24, from Spain. Have fun and fly safe =)
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.20 00:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Dani SP Im telling you something. For personal reasons I wont let Expanded Cargohold Is to be more expensive that 3000ISK, so all those "market gurus" can trade with another item LOL. Feels good to spot a manipulation in progress, doesn't it? Did the same with +4 implants last week. Went to buy some for an alt in an armpit of a region and GACK look at those prices. Short story long the person working that low volume market and the lemmings following suit ate about 200 assorted +4s at jita +1 to +2M. And I put the remainder up at jita +500k just for annoying me into having to fly 20 hops. Last I looked that market was crashed to below jita prices a week later.
Morrning Starr	Posted - 2009.01.20 01:55:00 - [29]
Aimel	Posted - 2009.01.20 07:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Cyrus Deacon Edited by: Cyrus Deacon on 17/01/2009 01:00:24 I am kind of wondering why people make products to turn around and sell them for like a 3% profit. Or why people (especially in jita) will see a good way for them to make profit but for some reason not want to, and undercut so low to destroy any profit margain..... it just baffles me. I usually stay out of jita by the way. it just makes no sense. It keeps getting worse and worse and the game progresses, ive been around for about 2 years and keep seeing profits going lower and lower. It would be impossible for a newb to make isk in this game through industry. could you imagine not having trade,broker relations,production efficiency, and mass production to lvl 5 AND not having a fully researched bpo. You have to have, damn near all of them things to even make the smallest profit.... stockpile



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