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Lucia Wilber
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.01.17 06:43:00 -
[1]
I've been looking at the various E-War ships available for the different races, and here's more or less what I've discovered. Each race gets a bonus to a specific type of E-War as follows:
Amarr: Energy Vamp/Neut and Tracking Disruption Minmitar: Webbers and Target Painters Gallente: Warp Scramblers and Sensor Dampeners Caldari: Target jammers
The way I see it, target jammers are by far superior to other forms of EWar on a case-by-case basis. Of the types listed, target jamming is the only one that completely nullifies virtually all counter-attacks. I can understand how the other forms can be handy as well, but none of them compares to the ability to completely negate your opponent's ability to target you, does it?
I'm a PvP newbie, so I don't know for sure. Can anyone help me understand these aspects a little better? |
URSOKWL
Caldari 4th Cavalry Space Forces The Black Isle
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Posted - 2009.01.17 07:05:00 -
[2]
FALCONS OWN.
Falcons allow small roaming gangs to HIT N RUN vs Larger targes.
Being out gunned is ok with falcons in fleet.
Also nice combo is logistics that stick close to Falons...
URSOKWL
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2009.01.17 08:11:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lucia Wilber I can understand how the other forms can be handy as well, but none of them compares to the ability to completely negate your opponent's ability to target you, does it?
You pretty much nailed it.
Other forms of e-war are used, but in a gang setting they'll only supplement ECM. And in PvE ECM'ing rats pose a threat far greater than other forms of e-war (particularly annoying in FW, as pvp'ing in a hostile Caldari plex basically gives the other guys a free Falcon alt)
ECM ships aren't very good solo (as ECM setups take up almost all your slots), so solo e-war boats are usually not Caldari. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.01.17 15:48:00 -
[4]
ECM is primarily a defensive tool. It prevents you and your gangmates from being targeted. While most of the other forms of EW are offensive. ECM is only superior in the fact that it prevents your opponent from attacking, however it doesn't really help make them dead. That's what other EW does.
Neuts are fantastic. No cap = no tank, which is something that ECM can't really do.
Painters are pretty darn handy in a large gang too. Increased sig radius makes for very easy targets.
Also warp scrambling and webs are kinda important if you want to make the kill.
Tracking Disruptors are nice in the fact that they are 100% effective unlike ECM, but aren't much use against missile boats.
And Sensor Damps are just plain crap. Completely useless module even on ships that are bonused for them.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2009.01.17 18:35:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Dex Nederland on 17/01/2009 18:35:00 ECM, while every effective when it works, is fickle; it is all ratios and percentages and if you can't get the percentages on your side you are not going to be effective.
Sensor Damps suffered in a recent rebalance; part of their ineffectiveness stems from the fact that combat generally occurs within less than 20 kms already (they can shorten targeting range). The other option is to decease targets scan resolution, which is great if you target them before they target you and can some how break their lock (ECM comes in handy).
So the Sensor Damp as a tool is lessened for the same reason Gallente ships tend to be better in combat than Caldari ships; combat generally begins at the effective range of the Gallente and well within the effective range of the Caldari.
If instead battles all began at 50 - 100 kms, Sensor Damps would be more useful for those with close range high dps ships; forcing the enemy to come in closer to do damage.
In-Game Browser : http://ldis.caldari-made.net |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.17 18:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff And Sensor Damps are just plain crap. Completely useless module even on ships that are bonused for them.
They're alright but their use is very limited due to their limited range. For example, you can use them with targeting range dampening scripts against a carrier to reduce its lock range to under 20km, which could remove it from the fight (while ECM would be chance-based here). Or use them against enemy logistics ships, electronic warfare ships or snipers. Anyone typically at the extremes of targeting range can be taken out of the fight with them if you can get a ship close enough to use them. I will admit that they're not as good as tracking disruptors against snipers and they're not as good as ECM from a dedicated ECM ship against long range enemies so they are a bit of an odd-ball form of EW. Their main redeeming feature is a lack of need for a bonus. If you can get everyone in a fleet to fit one damp, you can take several targets out of the fight.
Using the sensor resolution dampening script, damps can be mixed in with ECM to boost its performance as it'll take the enemy longer to retarget something after the jam cycle ends. If a few of the guys in your fleet throw damps on targets your ECM ships are jamming, the ECM ships can cycle jam and so get more people jammed. In practice, people opt to bring more ECM ships and not use damps because it's much easier. |
Jack Jomar
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Posted - 2009.01.19 10:15:00 -
[7]
Basically, to giver a short rundown.
Falcon/rook = prevent enemy from targetting anyone in your own gang/fleet. Awesomely useful, especially with this ship (the kitsune is handy too).
Curse = Energy thief. No energy, not tank, as someone else said. And in the case of amarr, gallente, and some caldari, no guns either. Vicious if used right.
Rapier/huginn = webber/wapr disruptor boats. Prevent the enemy from escaping if they're buggered, and provides you with the ability to gain a confirmed kill rather than a damaged target.
arazu = shorten enemy targeting distance. Forces the enemy to have to get close to you. Handy if you want to remove snipers and ranged ships from the fight. combine this with jamming on the close ranged ships, and it becomes real nasty for the enemy.
All in all, useage of at least one of each of the above, if not multiples can be a real winner. You still need stuff like interceptors and so on, as well as some DPS boats, but these ships can really turn the tide if used correctly. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.01.19 11:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lucia Wilber The way I see it, target jammers are by far superior to other forms of EWar on a case-by-case basis. Of the types listed, target jamming is the only one that completely nullifies virtually all counter-attacks. I can understand how the other forms can be handy as well, but none of them compares to the ability to completely negate your opponent's ability to target you, does it?
Yesterday I caught an AF on a gate in my HIC. A corpmate of mine was in a Falcon, I had two-three friends with me on the gate and two of them was tabbed out (bastards). We had 1 web on him, combined with the perma-scramble from the HIC, and the Falcon jammed him. But he slowboated back to the gate, and jumped through, with 5-10% structure left only. If the Falcon had been any other e-war ship, he'd been dead. (our main dps going afk isn't really great in that setup). On the other hand, had it been a bigger ship (especially if he decided to stay and fight), our dps would've been back in time and the Falcon would've been really useful.
It's hard to generalise. Depends alot on the situation. ECM works against all ships, but you'll lose tackle, damage, and there's a chance the ECM will fail, I guess that's the most simple answer you can get. All other e-war ships provide you with some kind of tackle and slight damage, and jamming sometimes fail.. while the rest e-war is subject to range/optimal/falloff etc instead.
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DJTheBaron
Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.20 15:45:00 -
[9]
Gallente Recons Have The Ability To Knock Your Sensors Down To A Useless Range Or Lock Speed, Remove Your Ability To Use Micro Warp Drives & Also Warp Scramble You. 3 Effects For The Price Of 1 - Effective Against Up To 2 targets
Amarr Recons Have The Ability To Suck Your Cap Dry Removing The Ability To Repair, Speed Boost & In The Case Of Most Amarr & Gallente Targets Remove Your Ability To Do Much Damage. 1 Effect With Up To 3 Damaging Side Effects - Effective Against One Large Target Or 2 Small Targets
Minmitar Recons Are Crap Using A 50% Web & Target Painters Dont Do That Much, Good For Killing Frigs/Destroyers & Not Much Else. But Theyre FAST 2 Effects - Effective Against 2 Small Targets
Caldari Recons Have 1 Ability With 1 Effect You Wont Kill Anyone But You Will Remove Multiple Ships From The Fight 1 Effect - Effective Against 3-5 targets
"The Views & Opinions Expressed In This Post Represent Your Own, So Dont Bother Arguing" DJTheBaron: Diplomacy 4TW |
Nathan Harrow
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2009.01.20 16:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DJTheBaron Caldari Recons Have 1 Ability With 1 Effect You Wont Kill Anyone But You Will Remove Multiple Ships From The Fight 1 Effect - Effective Against 3-5 targets
This - Falcon/Rook sacrifices all offence for the ability to take up to 5 people out of the combat per Recon. No other ship does - its not 100% effective and they can be countered well with ECCM's but is the only recon that can effectively allow you to take on fleets much larger than you.
With good skills and assuming the targets arent using ECCM's you can take multiple opponents out of the fight from start to finish - of course the ability to do this at 150km+ means you are effectively untouchable - the only thing falcon pilots need to watch are hostile Ceptors, other falcons and sniper ships.
Best way to combat falcons is to force them to bug out and retreat.
Duty. |
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.01.20 17:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: DJTheBaron Amarr Recons Have The Ability To Suck Your Cap Dry Removing The Ability To Repair, Speed Boost & In The Case Of Most Amarr & Gallente Targets Remove Your Ability To Do Much Damage. 1 Effect With Up To 3 Damaging Side Effects - Effective Against One Large Target Or 2 Small Targets
You forgot to mention the Tracking disruption, and considering 3 out of the 4 weapons systems in the game can be made completely useless with this I'd call it important. Have you ever tried to snipe when your weapon range gets knocked to less than half what it was? Or tried to lay down some damage on someone when the tracking on your Neutron II's is worse than capital turrets (okay, so maybe not quite that bad)?
ECM is a hat trick, it either works or it doesn't. I recently lost a ship with 2 Falcons on the KM... I never got jammed once, meaning attempting to jam me was a waste of their time/energy. Other times, I've been in fights where a single falcon has jammed me 3-4 times intermittently (imho, worse than repetitive jamming cycles; definitely more annoying). |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.01.21 01:44:00 -
[12]
Tracking Disruptors are incredibly powerful. You can completely shut down an enemy's gun based DPS with a handful of these and they always work. They are also quite effective against Minmatar ships, because you have no ship mods to regain the lost falloff, so you basically have no direct counters for it.
A couple of these and you might as well be perma-jammed for gun boats. |
Vampasha
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Posted - 2009.01.21 13:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Lucia Wilber The way I see it, target jammers are by far superior to other forms of EWar on a case-by-case basis. Of the types listed, target jamming is the only one that completely nullifies virtually all counter-attacks. I can understand how the other forms can be handy as well, but none of them compares to the ability to completely negate your opponent's ability to target you, does it?
Yesterday I caught an AF on a gate in my HIC. A corpmate of mine was in a Falcon, I had two-three friends with me on the gate and two of them was tabbed out (bastards). We had 1 web on him, combined with the perma-scramble from the HIC, and the Falcon jammed him. But he slowboated back to the gate, and jumped through, with 5-10% structure left only. If the Falcon had been any other e-war ship, he'd been dead. (our main dps going afk isn't really great in that setup). On the other hand, had it been a bigger ship (especially if he decided to stay and fight), our dps would've been back in time and the Falcon would've been really useful.
It's hard to generalise. Depends alot on the situation. ECM works against all ships, but you'll lose tackle, damage, and there's a chance the ECM will fail, I guess that's the most simple answer you can get. All other e-war ships provide you with some kind of tackle and slight damage, and jamming sometimes fail.. while the rest e-war is subject to range/optimal/falloff etc instead.
You jammed an AF running for the gate? |
Syekuda
Caldari Titanium Guard
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Posted - 2009.01.21 13:55:00 -
[14]
I'm suprised no one mentioned this before but the only way to counter ecm or jamming is to use fof missiles. Sure its not the best way because if your in high-sec and you hit a civilian object or ship, then you'll get concordokken. In low sec you would only get the sentry guns in certain places but still... its a counter attack.
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Nathan Harrow
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:29:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Nathan Harrow on 21/01/2009 16:29:19 fof's are unpredictable in fleet combat - as i said earlier, best counter is a sniper ship or a couple of skilled ceptors.
Duty. |
Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.22 09:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nathan Harrow Edited by: Nathan Harrow on 21/01/2009 16:29:19 fof's are unpredictable in fleet combat - as i said earlier, best counter is a sniper ship or a couple of skilled ceptors.
F.o.F. Missiles are indeed unpredictable. There is nothing quite like hearing someone on Ventrilo utter "****, what the hell is hitting me so hard?" only to hear "Oh, sorry!" from the person firing the F.o.F. Missiles beside them after they were hit by the smart bomb of the person now being hit by the missiles.
Interceptors are moderately good at chasing ECM away - they just have to be careful there isn't somebody keeping an eye on the ECM ship/s sending a wave of precision missiles at them just as the ECM ship they're approaching warps away, causing the Interceptor to automatically slow and stop ...
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Syekuda
Caldari Titanium Guard
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Posted - 2009.01.22 14:50:00 -
[17]
lol, true, but it works. You just gotta be careful with fof. mhh, the painful memories of bad use of F.o.F
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Nathan Harrow
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2009.01.22 16:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Interceptors are moderately good at chasing ECM away - they just have to be careful there isn't somebody keeping an eye on the ECM ship/s sending a wave of precision missiles at them just as the ECM ship they're approaching warps away, causing the Interceptor to automatically slow and stop ...
Thats why i recommend skilled interceptor pilots Good ceptor pilots wont "approach" anything, but instead manually pilot their ships to get that optimal transversal.
You always run the risk of having someone have a counter up their sleave - but more often than not the falcon will warp away rather than risk not getting that lock on the ceptor - and even if he doesnt warp and sits there and jams the ceptor, thats one or two less ECM modules on your fleet...
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Bruce Scythe
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Posted - 2009.01.22 18:30:00 -
[19]
Sensor dampeners and ECM make a good EWar team, as if the ECMer can't keep targets 100% jammed, then the sensor dampeners will stop them from relocking so easy. |
Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.01.23 05:13:00 -
[20]
To answer the OP's question: Yes, ECM is ridiculously overpowered. |
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.01.23 05:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bruce Scythe Sensor dampeners and ECM make a good EWar team...
Although two ECM makes an even better team.
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rubico1337
Caldari nefarious badgers inc
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Posted - 2009.01.23 18:39:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Bruce Scythe Sensor dampeners and ECM make a good EWar team...
Although two ECM makes an even better team.
good point :P
Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.01.23 19:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Bruce Scythe Sensor dampeners and ECM make a good EWar team...
Although two ECM makes an even better team.
Sad face. :(
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.24 20:44:00 -
[24]
Fit ECCM, problem solved. Btw there are no energy vampire counter measures, no webifier or targetpainter counter measures. ECM is powerful, but you can protect you ship against it with specific modules.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.24 21:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Bruce Scythe Sensor dampeners and ECM make a good EWar team...
Although two ECM makes an even better team.
2x falcon > falcon + arazu :( |
Ixich
Gallente Divinity Within Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:40:00 -
[26]
Maybe ECM is far more powerful then all other E-war, but then again there are modules to counter it:
- Target painting - no counter - Webbers - short of a MWD/AB, there is no counter - Nos/Neuts - Cap boosters? (only a limited amount) - Damps - Sensor boosters? - Tracking disrupts - tracking enhancing modules?
-ECM - ECCM
as can be seen above, the only real counter E-war module is the ECCM and maybe Cap boosters. No one puts a sensor booster on their ship as a primary function to counter Damps! Likewise for Tracking disrupts.
Some may say, you shouldn't need to have to use a counter Ewar module on my ship, the game should be balanced enough so that you can not have to worry. Wrong. Caldari are the Ewar specialists and thus this is why they have the most powerful Ewar- ECM. This game isn't about every race being balanced/same, nothing is stopping you from learning ECM and Caldari.
Please note- I'm not Caldari, i don't fly any ECM ships, and i care not for FOTM and everyone and his alt flying falcons.
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Demitria Fernir
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.25 03:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ixich Maybe ECM is far more powerful then all other E-war, but then again there are modules to counter it:
- Target painting - no counter - Webbers - short of a MWD/AB, there is no counter - Nos/Neuts - Cap boosters? (only a limited amount) - Damps - Sensor boosters? - Tracking disrupts - tracking enhancing modules?
-ECM - ECCM
as can be seen above, the only real counter E-war module is the ECCM and maybe Cap boosters. No one puts a sensor booster on their ship as a primary function to counter Damps! Likewise for Tracking disrupts.
Some may say, you shouldn't need to have to use a counter Ewar module on my ship, the game should be balanced enough so that you can not have to worry. Wrong. Caldari are the Ewar specialists and thus this is why they have the most powerful Ewar- ECM. This game isn't about every race being balanced/same, nothing is stopping you from learning ECM and Caldari.
Please note- I'm not Caldari, i don't fly any ECM ships, and i care not for FOTM and everyone and his alt flying falcons.
the only difference between the ECM counter and all other EWAR counters is that ECM counters does not give any other handy bonus to the ship, in case the EWAR is not present in the battle.
think about it, tracking enhancers, mwd/ab, sensor boosters and cap boosters all give some handy bonus to the ship, be it tracking/optimal, targeting speed, speed or cap, but they do give a bonus that can be used for something else.
ECCM is only against ECM, it gives an "useless" bonus that only counters ECM. _______________________________________________ 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 |
foobarx
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Posted - 2009.01.25 06:18:00 -
[28]
- Target painting - no counter
Yes, well, you don't need to counter something that worthless. Target painting is useful in PvE. In PvP there's always a better use for that slot. |
foobarx
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Posted - 2009.01.25 06:21:00 -
[29]
ECM is primarily a defensive tool. It prevents you and your gangmates from being targeted.
That's a very narrow view of ECM. If you jam your opponent's logistics ship, is that defensive? How about when you jam half his gang and smoke the remainder while the jammed guys are swearing at their monitors? What about when you jam the ECM ships in the other gang, still defensive? |
gpfault
Haunted House
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Posted - 2009.01.25 06:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Demitria Fernir ECCM is only against ECM, it gives an "useless" bonus that only counters ECM.
It also makes you harder to probe out, but unless you're in a deadspace it's a pretty useless bonus.
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