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EWAR is balanced across all races?

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LongHong Dong	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:46:00 - [1] Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp?
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:48:00 - [2] ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:48:00 - [3] Wanne see my long hong dong?
Rifter Drifter Minmatar You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:49:00 - [4] just read the title, and i can happily answer, "yes" now gtfo before i release the hounds
Thong Gnome	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:52:00 - [5] Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? Most of your low slots would have to be with the eccm's. That = death if you are Amarr
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.17 07:59:00 - [6] Amarr ships should use the mid slot ECCM. Sadly it would take 3-4 to pump you up enough on some ships. If you can use projected ECCM and have a buddy each could fit 2 Projected ECCM and boost their buddy. You need a sensor strength of 60 to beat a single falcon that is rigged and fitted with racial ecm. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:05:00 - [7] o\ o\ o\ o\
Thong Gnome	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:05:00 - [8] Edited by: Thong Gnome on 17/01/2009 08:07:02 Originally by: Mecinia Lua Amarr ships should use the mid slot ECCM. Sadly it would take 3-4 to pump you up enough on some ships. If you can use projected ECCM and have a buddy each could fit 2 Projected ECCM and boost their buddy. You need a sensor strength of 60 to beat a single falcon that is rigged and fitted with racial ecm. jam str of 60? That is insane! ECM needs to be redone. I say remove ECCM and ECM totaly. Give the ships that was made specificaly for this a MWD in their stats. Free module ship!
Arno Villanova Amarr Blood Money Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:10:00 - [9] Edited by: Arno Villanova on 17/01/2009 08:12:41 Had my curse fit with two ECCM's becouse I knew there would be a falcon in the next fight... Think my sensor strength was 80 or 90. I think he missed a cycle in the time it took for a Deimos and Vaga to chew through my 17K armor points. Not an exageration, ****ed me off that the Deimos lived. ECCM and ECM does not need to be removed. Just modified like nano was. Damn forum posters getting things nerfed.... Oh wait now Im doing it.
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:13:00 - [10] When was the last time you heard anyone cry about dampeners? Tracking disruptors? Target painters? Theres your answer. --- My cat Putter approves of this post.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Kravick Drasari When was the last time you heard anyone cry about dampeners? Tracking disruptors? Target painters? Theres your answer. Exactly. People need to start whining about those things instead. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Tau Dades Caldari Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:23:00 - [12] Originally by: LongHong Dong Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? 14 virgins to the god of their choice.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:28:00 - [13] I'm not saying that the medslotting of amarr ships is "fine", completely out of whack in some cases, but we live, as always, Amarr have been adapting for a couple of years now My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Amarr ships should use the mid slot ECCM. Sadly it would take 3-4 to pump you up enough on some ships. If you can use projected ECCM and have a buddy each could fit 2 Projected ECCM and boost their buddy. You need a sensor strength of 60 to beat a single falcon that is rigged and fitted with racial ecm. how are we defining beat? it still has a chance to jam you regardless of your sensor strength.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:53:00 - [15] Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? I agree. Amarr EWAR is wayyy overpowered.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.17 08:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Kravick Drasari When was the last time you heard anyone cry about dampeners? Tracking disruptors? Target painters? Theres your answer. Exactly. People need to start whining about those things instead. I use a target painter as well :) Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Mecinia Lua Amarr ships should use the mid slot ECCM. Sadly it would take 3-4 to pump you up enough on some ships. If you can use projected ECCM and have a buddy each could fit 2 Projected ECCM and boost their buddy. You need a sensor strength of 60 to beat a single falcon that is rigged and fitted with racial ecm. how are we defining beat? it still has a chance to jam you regardless of your sensor strength. The higher your sensor strength the less the chance, but as you point out it is not foil proof. (Also attested by the other poster). ECM used to be a lot more powerful than it is today. They had a ECM revamp seems like 2-3 years ago. That's the problem though folks go in nerfing cycle. Nerf this, then nerf that, then nerf c and so on then they restart the cycle because nerfing is never really the answer. ECCM probably needs a slight boost to make it more effective rather than nerfing ECM. The way it is currently also the ECCM needs to be running before they hit you with the ECM, once the ECM hits raising your sensor strength doesn't seem to help as much. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Raa Asa	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:08:00 - [18] Edited by: Raa Asa on 17/01/2009 09:08:07 Originally by: Mecinia Lua Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Kravick Drasari When was the last time you heard anyone cry about dampeners? Tracking disruptors? Target painters? Theres your answer. Exactly. People need to start whining about those things instead. I use a target painter as well :) But you shouldn't use it on your face my dear. struts out of the thread
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:18:00 - [19] of course ewar aren't balanced same as dps isn't balanced range isn't balanced and speed isn't balance some races are better at some things than others. I will say the following about ewar though; forget which race has which e-war and tell me which of these sounds more like the minmatar style of fighting: Using your speed and e-war to out track the enemy and fly under their guns. Using your speed and e-war to kite the enemy messing with their targeting range or the gun range. Using your speed and e-war to slow down the enemies sensor hit them hard then get out before they lock you. Using your speed and e-war to chase down ships smaller than you and beat the crap out of them. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:21:00 - [20] Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? EW isn't balanced across races. Considering your specific example, you might want to consider that the Curse has an utterly different role to the Falcon, isn't really supposed to be a Falcon counter and that it would take a very creative argument indeed to propose that Curse pilots are in any way underpowered or justified. I say this as someone who flies both Curses and Falcons. Falcons can do something that a Curse can't do very well: long range EW. A Curse can do several things that Falcons can't even consider. Note that if you wanted to, you could fit a Curse or Pilgrim with a rack of TDs, use EW range rigs and be a reasonably effective EW platform vs turret ships at 100Km+ ranges - while at the same time still fitting a rack of capwar mods and a drone bay as good as that of the racial drone specialist tier-3 battlecruiser. No, Amarr recons are in no way underpowered, lacking in versatility, or gimped. If anything, they're far more OP that the ECM ships everyone whines about. The only real difference is that a Curse has to be actively piloted, whereas Falcons can, so I am told, be run on an alt. If you want a ship to counter a Falcon, then consider: Apoc Rokh Cerb Arazu Purifier (or any stealthbomber) Ishtar and as a last resort, speed-fit ships eg: Vagabond.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? I agree. Amarr EWAR is wayyy overpowered. Any blasterboat pilot should have this opinion about tracking disruptors. At least you have some chance to resist ECM.
Kravick Drasari	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? I agree. Amarr EWAR is wayyy overpowered. Any blasterboat pilot should have this opinion about tracking disruptors. At least you have some chance to resist ECM. Tracking computers? Tracking enhancers? --- My cat Putter approves of this post.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: LongHong Dong Edited by: LongHong Dong on 17/01/2009 07:47:36 I do not believe it is. Example: How much does an Amarrian that doesnt use EWAR ships have to sacrifice to counter a FOTM Falcon or scorp? I agree. Amarr EWAR is wayyy overpowered. Any blasterboat pilot should have this opinion about tracking disruptors. At least you have some chance to resist ECM. I was being facetious. And while everyone has a chance to not be jammed in theory, it doesn't happen in practice. Example: my Abaddon is scrammed by 5x BS, I'm in half structure. I warp my Falcon in, jam all five on the first attempt from 220km and warp my Abaddon out. Am I happy I got my BS out? Yes. Is ECM horribly overpowered? (yes, I read your thread) Yes. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:49:00 - [24] "I warp my Falcon in, jam all five on the first attempt" If this happened to you, you are very, very lucky indeed. Even assuming that you had exactly the correct 5 racials fitted, and didn't make any mistakes in assigning jams, you'd still have a very small chance of succeeding with all 5 jams. In that situation I'd be pleased with getting 3. However, any ship at all can stand off at 60Km, hit you with 2 TDs and completely ruin your DPS with no chance to resist.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Malcanis "I warp my Falcon in, jam all five on the first attempt" If this happened to you, you are very, very lucky indeed. Even assuming that you had exactly the correct 5 racials fitted, and didn't make any mistakes in assigning jams, you'd still have a very small chance of succeeding with all 5 jams. In that situation I'd be pleased with getting 3. However, any ship at all can stand off at 60Km, hit you with 2 TDs and completely ruin your DPS with no chance to resist. Assuming you're not lobbing missiles.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis "I warp my Falcon in, jam all five on the first attempt" If this happened to you, you are very, very lucky indeed. Even assuming that you had exactly the correct 5 racials fitted, and didn't make any mistakes in assigning jams, you'd still have a very small chance of succeeding with all 5 jams. In that situation I'd be pleased with getting 3. However, any ship at all can stand off at 60Km, hit you with 2 TDs and completely ruin your DPS with no chance to resist. Assuming you're not lobbing missiles. Care to post your missile abbadon fit?
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis ........ Care to post your missile abbadon fit? [Abaddon, missile abbadon] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Ancillary Current Router II Ancillary Current Router II Ancillary Current Router I
Lord Haur Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.17 10:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Typhado3 LolCitTorpBaddon You forgot to fill the mids with TP's to actually hit something. --- Sig Starts Here --- Lord Haur - Imperial Academy Logistical Support
Elias West Mentally Disordered Criminals	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:45:00 - [29] watch this http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/dop/Break_Me_Shake_Me.wmv movie, the middle part. cown shows whats broken with the ecm / eccm system. eccm needs to be fixed.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Mecinia Lua ECM used to be a lot more powerful than it is today. They had a ECM revamp seems like 2-3 years ago. That's the problem though folks go in nerfing cycle. Nerf this, then nerf that, then nerf c and so on then they restart the cycle because nerfing is never really the answer. All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Typhado3 Edited by: Typhado3 on 17/01/2009 10:09:47 Originally by: Malcanis ........ Care to post your missile abbadon fit? [Abaddon, missile abbadon] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Confirming I'm going to train up capital projectiles just to see a capital autocannon fitted on my Abaddon.
Grek Forto Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Khemul Zula THIS
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.01.17 15:36:00 - [33] Ewar is intentionally not balanced. Caldari are supposed ot have the most powerful ewar as their specialty and Minmatar are purposely gifted with the more useless ewar. Though at the moment the overall balance for this concept is a bit too tilted with ECM a bit too effective and target painters not effective enough. Sensor dampers might use some tweak upwards and tracking disruptors are mostly good, though the might use with a seperation between optimal and falloff scripts. Or Minmatar gain a falloff script for tracking comps and tracking enhancers get split between optimal and falloff (or a second variety for falloff is added).
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Abrazzar Ewar is intentionally not balanced. Also, how on earth are they supposed to be "balanced" when they're not even doing the same thing? That's like saying a potato isn't balanced against a tractor because the former tastes better than the latter can drive fast. Sure, both are farming-related, but one is for eating and the other is for pushing and hauling stuff around.
Spurty Caldari Technologic Dance	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:41:00 - [35] Edited by: Spurty on 17/01/2009 18:41:23 ewar covers ecm (2 bonuses), nuet/tracking, damp/scram and web/tp. Caldari are supposed to be the 'last word' or something in ewar. Minmitar in speed Amarr in armor tanks and Gallente in drones. When you focus on one aspect, it seems overpowered. You need to get the World view of the game to understand the balance. In solo pvp, if you are up against a rook, if you can't warp off (oops, scrammed and webbed) and do not have access to 7 or 8 fof missiles or drones (amarr cough), you are dead. It feels like you are just sitting there trying to make your ship do something to get away as getting closer to them doesn't help as that rook pilot is in control of your guns and you are not. the fact there is any chance involved in ecm makes it broken. Hows about allowing chance to get involved in other things such as scramming at 200km? I wouldn't say no and I'm a falcon / rook pilot (same as my alt chuckle)
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Spurty Edited by: Spurty on 17/01/2009 18:41:23 ewar covers ecm (2 bonuses), nuet/tracking, damp/scram and web/tp. Caldari are supposed to be the 'last word' or something in ewar. Minmitar in speed Amarr in armor tanks and Gallente in drones. When you focus on one aspect, it seems overpowered. You need to get the World view of the game to understand the balance. In solo pvp, if you are up against a rook, if you can't warp off (oops, scrammed and webbed) and do not have access to 7 or 8 fof missiles or drones (amarr cough), you are dead. It feels like you are just sitting there trying to make your ship do something to get away as getting closer to them doesn't help as that rook pilot is in control of your guns and you are not. the fact there is any chance involved in ecm makes it broken. Hows about allowing chance to get involved in other things such as scramming at 200km? I wouldn't say no and I'm a falcon / rook pilot (same as my alt chuckle) 2 things to add, neut scram and web are the secondary ewar and are available to races aside from the primary race. caldari also get target painters for 1 ship for some strange reason. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2009.01.17 23:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Kravick Drasari When was the last time you heard anyone cry about dampeners? Tracking disruptors? Target painters? Theres your answer. you must be new. dampners were worse than ECM over a year ago. but yes ECM needs to be looked into. also TD's should be weapon disruptors and affect missiles as well also target painters blow double their effectivness.. or give hyena/rapier/huginn a web strentgh bonus _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:14:00 - [38] Gal ships favor two resists because the enemy was strong there. Amarr as well, so do Cal and Minmitar. Ewar and tackle? I guess it isn't a threat to be held in place and have your dps removed. No ship was designed to counter tackle. Is there even a rig that improves sensor?
Zitus	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:15:00 - [39] to all of you who think ECM is over powered, screw yourselves. Right now. I'll wait till you get done. ... That was fast. Good for you. As caldari, EWAR is the only thing we really have going for us. We have crappy dps and to participate in PvP, you'd be surprised how much tank we sacrifice just to fit web and tackle. What with the missile nerf (over nerfed torps if you ask me. large guns can track my raven just fine, but all you have to do is move and you take half damage) Caldari has literally become the most useless class in PvP minus our EWAR. Q.E.D.
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.18 00:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Zitus to all of you who think ECM is over powered, screw yourselves. Right now. I'll wait till you get done. ... That was fast. Good for you. As caldari, EWAR is the only thing we really have going for us. We have crappy dps and to participate in PvP, you'd be surprised how much tank we sacrifice just to fit web and tackle. What with the missile nerf (over nerfed torps if you ask me. large guns can track my raven just fine, but all you have to do is move and you take half damage) Caldari has literally become the most useless class in PvP minus our EWAR. Q.E.D. You are a one trick pony. Not in EvE. That can't be
Takashi X2	Posted - 2009.01.18 02:37:00 - [41] TBH I fail to see how balance in a sandbox matter (well to some degree it does). You can train every ship anyway.. its not like hey your an amarr you cant train for caldari. in that same sense do you really think its fair that a curse can drain that same falcon in a matter of second thus disabling its function completely... especially since curses do a lot more dmg
Opertone Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.18 12:04:00 - [42] Caldari was broken from start. Slot layout is wrong, caldari need 6-8 meds, 2-3 lows. Scorpion is a bad battleship, too specialized in support. Unable to deal DPS. Optimal range bonus is bad also... The DPS isn't sufficient to break tank, so there is no point to fly caldari rail boat. Caldari slot layout, poor concept, bad ship bonuses and stupid weapon systems are to blame. Caldari would be good with a few rebalances. Caldari desperately lack medium slots for speed, tackle, e-war and tank. Other races get 6-8 lows for Damage and Tank. 3 DMG, 5 tank slots. Caldari get 6 medium slots, 1 for speed, 1 for tackle, 1 e-war, 3 for tank... or 6 slot tank and no speed no tackle, no cap booster, no e-war. Caldari are the slowest and have smallest DPS and weakest tanks. Techonlogical advances translate as Primary Target. Shield tank requires 5 medium slots to partially match Armor + Hull tank, shield has 0% EM hole. Shield tank eats a lot of capacitor. If shield tank is broken the ship is dead. Caldari suffer from poor design and lack of attention. Give Caldari 200 km scram and Sniping may actually work. But it doesn't. Caldari - crap.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.18 15:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Opertone Caldari was broken from start. Slot layout is wrong, caldari need 6-8 meds, 2-3 lows. Scorpion is a bad battleship, too specialized in support. Unable to deal DPS. Optimal range bonus is bad also... The DPS isn't sufficient to break tank, so there is no point to fly caldari rail boat. Caldari slot layout, poor concept, bad ship bonuses and stupid weapon systems are to blame. Caldari would be good with a few rebalances. Caldari desperately lack medium slots for speed, tackle, e-war and tank. Other races get 6-8 lows for Damage and Tank. 3 DMG, 5 tank slots. Caldari get 6 medium slots, 1 for speed, 1 for tackle, 1 e-war, 3 for tank... or 6 slot tank and no speed no tackle, no cap booster, no e-war. Caldari are the slowest and have smallest DPS and weakest tanks. Techonlogical advances translate as Primary Target. Shield tank requires 5 medium slots to partially match Armor + Hull tank, shield has 0% EM hole. Shield tank eats a lot of capacitor. If shield tank is broken the ship is dead. Caldari suffer from poor design and lack of attention. Give Caldari 200 km scram and Sniping may actually work. But it doesn't. Caldari - crap. cool, does that mean armor tankers can get a self repairing armor system, and a true passive tank and not a buffer? if you have other people to scram for you then you dont need it. if your passive tank is cap stable your only fear is neuts. also, you can cry about lack of e-war slots but armor tankers have to sacrifice tank for dps. a good raven pilot with a couple BCU's can be scary.
Apoctasy Young Enterprise Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Khemul Zula Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. /THREAD

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