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Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 06:58:00 - [1] This has bugged me for the longest time. Projectile ammo does less damage than hybrid: For Hybrids, it's: 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 For Projectiles: 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 From lowest damage to highest. There doesnt seem to be any reason for this. The guns themselves seem to be balanced stat-wise with artillery being slow but high damage modifier and poor tracking/no cap usage, with railguns being the opposite, but the projectiles have the weaker ammo. Can a person that knows the official reason please tell me? Or hell, the actual official responce would be great.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 06:58:00 - [2] This has bugged me for the longest time. Projectile ammo does less damage than hybrid: For Hybrids, it's: 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 For Projectiles: 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 From lowest damage to highest. There doesnt seem to be any reason for this. The guns themselves seem to be balanced stat-wise with artillery being slow but high damage modifier and poor tracking/no cap usage, with railguns being the opposite, but the projectiles have the weaker ammo. Can a person that knows the official reason please tell me? Or hell, the actual official responce would be great.
Directive	Posted - 2004.07.29 07:03:00 - [3] Only reason I can think of is that Hybrids are currently limited to thermal+kinetic damage, while Projectiles aren't.
Directive	Posted - 2004.07.29 07:03:00 - [4] Only reason I can think of is that Hybrids are currently limited to thermal+kinetic damage, while Projectiles aren't.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:38:00 - [5] That wouldnt be a good reason. It has more varied damage, but it doesnt do any more damage because of it. Against shields, the explosive part does crap damage. Against armor, the non explosive/kinetic parts will do crap damage.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:38:00 - [6] That wouldnt be a good reason. It has more varied damage, but it doesnt do any more damage because of it. Against shields, the explosive part does crap damage. Against armor, the non explosive/kinetic parts will do crap damage.
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Selim That wouldnt be a good reason. It has more varied damage, but it doesnt do any more damage because of it. Against shields, the explosive part does crap damage. Against armor, the non explosive/kinetic parts will do crap damage. Eh? If you can change ammotype midfight it has the potential to make a huge difference, or?
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Selim That wouldnt be a good reason. It has more varied damage, but it doesnt do any more damage because of it. Against shields, the explosive part does crap damage. Against armor, the non explosive/kinetic parts will do crap damage. Eh? If you can change ammotype midfight it has the potential to make a huge difference, or?
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:55:00 - [9] Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 08:55:00 - [10] Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor.
meowcat	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:00:00 - [11] Edited by: meowcat on 29/07/2004 09:04:44 cap usage is the reason using projectiles saves a shedload of cap for tanking / whatever edit: if damage were the same for projectiles for much less cap usage, nobody would use hybrids... it works quite well now tbh - with projectiles now you lose some damge dealing but gain some defensive benefits
meowcat	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:00:00 - [12] Edited by: meowcat on 29/07/2004 09:04:44 cap usage is the reason using projectiles saves a shedload of cap for tanking / whatever edit: if damage were the same for projectiles for much less cap usage, nobody would use hybrids... it works quite well now tbh - with projectiles now you lose some damge dealing but gain some defensive benefits
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Selim Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor. And they are pretty predictable too. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Selim Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor. And they are pretty predictable too. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Meridius	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Selim Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor. And they are pretty predictable too. Sure but what does that do on the battlefield? It's not like your gonna turn your em hardner off if you see a thron coming your way ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Selim Hybrid users dont need to do that, though. Kinetic and Thermal damage are the most versatile damage types out there. They both do pretty good on shield and armor. And they are pretty predictable too. Sure but what does that do on the battlefield? It's not like your gonna turn your em hardner off if you see a thron coming your way ________________________________________________________
Directive	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:56:00 - [17] I'd love to be able to get EMP and Explosive damage out of my railguns, but currently that's not possible. EVE-I's ObjectExplorer does list the Tech2 charges having this possibility, but that's not in yet and there's still the issue of capacitor usage on Hybrid vs. Projectiles.
Directive	Posted - 2004.07.29 09:56:00 - [18] I'd love to be able to get EMP and Explosive damage out of my railguns, but currently that's not possible. EVE-I's ObjectExplorer does list the Tech2 charges having this possibility, but that's not in yet and there's still the issue of capacitor usage on Hybrid vs. Projectiles.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 11:56:00 - [19] Edited by: Selim on 29/07/2004 12:07:25 Originally by: meowcat Edited by: meowcat on 29/07/2004 09:04:44 cap usage is the reason using projectiles saves a shedload of cap for tanking / whatever edit: if damage were the same for projectiles for much less cap usage, nobody would use hybrids... it works quite well now tbh - with projectiles now you lose some damge dealing but gain some defensive benefits No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. If you took the time to notice, the cap usage of guns is dependent on the tracking speed. Lasers use the most cap and thus have the best tracking speeds. Right now Projectiles even have the worst damage over time already without the ammo penalty, but this is offset by the falloff bonus they get. However, nothing involving cap usage makes any sense as to why projectile ammo is crap. As it is now, so many people that have used projectiles for a long time, for long before the Tempest days, including me, are extremely dissapointed with the performance of the projectiles currently. The ammo being brought up to normal standards would be just the thing it needs IMO. They'd still have bad damage over time, and poor tracking, and the bonuses would still be no cap + good falloff.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 11:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Selim on 29/07/2004 12:07:25 Originally by: meowcat Edited by: meowcat on 29/07/2004 09:04:44 cap usage is the reason using projectiles saves a shedload of cap for tanking / whatever edit: if damage were the same for projectiles for much less cap usage, nobody would use hybrids... it works quite well now tbh - with projectiles now you lose some damge dealing but gain some defensive benefits No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. If you took the time to notice, the cap usage of guns is dependent on the tracking speed. Lasers use the most cap and thus have the best tracking speeds. Right now Projectiles even have the worst damage over time already without the ammo penalty, but this is offset by the falloff bonus they get. However, nothing involving cap usage makes any sense as to why projectile ammo is crap. As it is now, so many people that have used projectiles for a long time, for long before the Tempest days, including me, are extremely dissapointed with the performance of the projectiles currently. The ammo being brought up to normal standards would be just the thing it needs IMO. They'd still have bad damage over time, and poor tracking, and the bonuses would still be no cap + good falloff.
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Selim No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. Good luck selim. The cap usage is always taken up as soon as someone says minmatar have a problem. It ranges from actual ship attributes, mod/gun attributes to ammo. It all has to be sacrificed because the cap usage on proj guns are low, sucks but that seems to be the way it is.
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Selim No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. Good luck selim. The cap usage is always taken up as soon as someone says minmatar have a problem. It ranges from actual ship attributes, mod/gun attributes to ammo. It all has to be sacrificed because the cap usage on proj guns are low, sucks but that seems to be the way it is.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Selim No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. Good luck selim. The cap usage is always taken up as soon as someone says minmatar have a problem. It ranges from actual ship attributes, mod/gun attributes to ammo. It all has to be sacrificed because the cap usage on proj guns are low, sucks but that seems to be the way it is. So you're saying you think minmatar ships should suck, the guns should suck, and the ammo should suck, all because the guns dont use capacitor? With decent skills hybrids will use almost nothing either, yet they're better in every category.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Selim No... The reduced cap usage means projectiles get crap tracking. The stats on the guns are balanced, the ammo is not. Good luck selim. The cap usage is always taken up as soon as someone says minmatar have a problem. It ranges from actual ship attributes, mod/gun attributes to ammo. It all has to be sacrificed because the cap usage on proj guns are low, sucks but that seems to be the way it is. So you're saying you think minmatar ships should suck, the guns should suck, and the ammo should suck, all because the guns dont use capacitor? With decent skills hybrids will use almost nothing either, yet they're better in every category.
Rhagnor	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:21:00 - [25] Using (next to) no cap but also not being able to kill anything or use cap and be able to kill stuff.... Mm I wonder what most people would choose
Rhagnor	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:21:00 - [26] Using (next to) no cap but also not being able to kill anything or use cap and be able to kill stuff.... Mm I wonder what most people would choose
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:26:00 - [27] Edited by: Selim on 29/07/2004 12:35:59 Also. On ships whose guns use cap, their base capacitor are MUCH higher. They have more base hitpoints as well so can tank better using less cap for that. Besides, other ships that use cap for their guns, at least they can kill something. Minmatar ships dont use cap for their guns, and cant kill anything with guns like 1400mms. 400 damage every..... 13 seconds. On a non-tanked target. And thats on a decent hit, which are rare with the crap tracking. And this is ONLY on the tempest, which has TWO DOT bonuses, and still doesnt make it good enough. So once again, you think the heaviest guns in the game, a 1.4 meter wide shell, should do a pitiful amount of damage every 14 seconds with crap tracking? Sure it uses only 3 cap a shot, which is nothing... but as I cant stress enough, its ammo is weaker, the ship its on is weaker in both hitpoints and capacitor. It doesnt have the capacitor to tank at all even though its guns dont use any, while an Apoc can fire all its guns and tank for a long time. A Megathron will do so much damage that the enemy is dead before cap even begins to be a worry. A Raven likewise does tons of damage and can tank reasonably well. While the Tempest is left alone. Doing poor damage over time, without the ability to tank well. And yet everyone lauds projectiles. Well then why dont you use the things? Go trade your raven for a tempest, if its so good. Oh, wait. Nevermind. You wont do that, because right now the Raven and Apoc are the best ships for all around damage and the Megathron will always be the king of short range. As for short range autocannons, these perform a bit better, BUT, this is offset, by the sheer amount of ammo you have to lug around, and again, the poor tracking rears its head. Did I mention that artillery holds hardly any rounds? You have to reload all the damn time, lowering your DOT even further. /me sips his beer
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:26:00 - [28] Edited by: Selim on 29/07/2004 12:35:59 Also. On ships whose guns use cap, their base capacitor are MUCH higher. They have more base hitpoints as well so can tank better using less cap for that. Besides, other ships that use cap for their guns, at least they can kill something. Minmatar ships dont use cap for their guns, and cant kill anything with guns like 1400mms. 400 damage every..... 13 seconds. On a non-tanked target. And thats on a decent hit, which are rare with the crap tracking. And this is ONLY on the tempest, which has TWO DOT bonuses, and still doesnt make it good enough. So once again, you think the heaviest guns in the game, a 1.4 meter wide shell, should do a pitiful amount of damage every 14 seconds with crap tracking? Sure it uses only 3 cap a shot, which is nothing... but as I cant stress enough, its ammo is weaker, the ship its on is weaker in both hitpoints and capacitor. It doesnt have the capacitor to tank at all even though its guns dont use any, while an Apoc can fire all its guns and tank for a long time. A Megathron will do so much damage that the enemy is dead before cap even begins to be a worry. A Raven likewise does tons of damage and can tank reasonably well. While the Tempest is left alone. Doing poor damage over time, without the ability to tank well. And yet everyone lauds projectiles. Well then why dont you use the things? Go trade your raven for a tempest, if its so good. Oh, wait. Nevermind. You wont do that, because right now the Raven and Apoc are the best ships for all around damage and the Megathron will always be the king of short range. As for short range autocannons, these perform a bit better, BUT, this is offset, by the sheer amount of ammo you have to lug around, and again, the poor tracking rears its head. Did I mention that artillery holds hardly any rounds? You have to reload all the damn time, lowering your DOT even further. /me sips his beer
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:44:00 - [29] Selim, I was only resigned to the fact that that's the way these balancing thingies go. Complain about minmater = Getting the cap thingie thrown in yer face. Personally I think it's rather sad and don't agree with it but that seems to be the way it is.
Fred0	Posted - 2004.07.29 12:44:00 - [30] Selim, I was only resigned to the fact that that's the way these balancing thingies go. Complain about minmater = Getting the cap thingie thrown in yer face. Personally I think it's rather sad and don't agree with it but that seems to be the way it is.

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