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Nicklaus Klaus'nik
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Posted - 2009.01.21 13:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nicklaus Klaus''nik on 21/01/2009 13:37:51
Salutations my fellow capsuleers. This morning, I submitted this petion to CCP via the in-game interface: "As the subject line clearly indicates, gentlemen, something needs to be done about this. War targets are entering enemy high sec space to engage, and are either utilizing neutral shield/armor repairs to avoid the faction navy, or to survive encounters with their victims. The main problem with neutral logistics usage in FW or any other war declaration situation, is how it works. The neutral pilots have no aggression countdown timer, so they can safely flee the combat area by gate-jumping or docking up after they have already unfairly affected the ongoing fight. Also, players must be engaged with their repair target before they become "flashy" and legal to shoot at. Meaning this: They have time to cycle off repairs, flee to safety, return and do it again, basically unhindered. This exploit (and EVERYONE currently in Gallente faction warfare agrees, and is equally ****ed off about this) has seen increasing usage on stations, where WTs and their neutral allies sit in Villore, and engage at a station, keeping their neutral logistics within docking range, firing off a few repair cycles and docking up-no significant threat to the logistics pilot/alt account recieved from the faction navy, and no aggression countdown timer meaning that whoever was shooting at the WT, can now aim at them, but unfortunately, they've safely docked up already. Also, other pilots who are at war with the exploit user, CANNOT shoot at the logistics ship unless they were already shooting the ship being repaired. Can you not see how this is unfair? The only solution that comes to mind, is giving the "neutral" logistics ships an aggression timer so that they can't gate-jump for 30 seconds or dock up either, after repairing a ship currently engaged in combat. Also, they should become attackable by anyone at war with their repair target as well. The use of this exploit has been steadily on the rise in Black Rise region by Caldari militia, and I'm sad to say the Gallente now has people using it in retribution in Caldari high sec. It's things like this that ruin the experience for everyone, on either side. Instead of CCP correcting the issue, players are now resorting to abusing this exploit even more. Please, intervene. Please. Thank you for the incredible amounts of work you put into this amazing experience that is EVE, I'm proud to be in my second year playing. I hope my explanation was clear enough, and once again, this is something worth looking into-the mechanics at least. Try it yourselves and see how unfair and frustrating it is when you're engaging someone and he gets help and your mates cant shoot his "neutral" buddies and they simply dock up and keep your target from dying, while he's steadily killing you." Hopefully, this gains a bit of momentum from our more experienced guys, and those who know what I'm talkng about. It's high time CCP corrected this issue, as we've been complaining about it and petitioning it for months and months. I can haz /bump?
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Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.01.21 13:52:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Mitch Taylor on 21/01/2009 13:53:40
Paragraphs Nicklaus!
p.s. I agree completely, neutrals should get aggro from repping, would solve this problem and several others that spring to mind.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.01.21 13:53:00 -
[3]
MY EYES ARE BURNING
 Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Snake O'Donell
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:55:00 -
[4]
This has been written about many times, and CCP still hasn't responded. I am assuming they either don't care or that they consider it a feature.... |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Nyphur on 21/01/2009 15:03:42
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
p.s. I agree completely, neutrals should get aggro from repping, would solve this problem and several others that spring to mind.
They should already. Is the problem that there's no such thing as a flag to the whole militia? Or are people somehow evading the flag to the corps attacking someone when they rep them?
EDIT: Oh, or is it just a rehashing of the same problem we've had for a while where remote reps don't count as aggro for the purposes of docking and jumping? |
Snake O'Donell
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 21/01/2009 15:03:42
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
p.s. I agree completely, neutrals should get aggro from repping, would solve this problem and several others that spring to mind.
They should already. Is the problem that there's no such thing as a flag to the whole militia? Or are people somehow evading the flag to the corps attacking someone when they rep them?
EDIT: Oh, or is it just a rehashing of the same problem we've had for a while where remote reps don't count as aggro for the purposes of docking and jumping?
All of the above. The neutral only flags to the people who are actively engaging the WT that it is repping, and because there is no jump/dock timer the repper can just jump through once it starts taking damage.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:40:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nyphur on 21/01/2009 15:41:04
Originally by: Snake O'Donell
All of the above. The neutral only flags to the people who are actively engaging the WT that it is repping, and because there is no jump/dock timer the repper can just jump through once it starts taking damage.
That's a big problem, but it might not be one that's easily fixed. Remote reppers should flag the repairer to the wars the guy he's repairing has active and should also include faction wars. Remote repairing should also activate the 60 second jump and dock timers. Whether that's simple for the devs to actually change and test is another thing entirely. It would be nice to get some response on the issue though. |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.01.21 18:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 21/01/2009 15:41:04
Originally by: Snake O'Donell
All of the above. The neutral only flags to the people who are actively engaging the WT that it is repping, and because there is no jump/dock timer the repper can just jump through once it starts taking damage.
That's a big problem, but it might not be one that's easily fixed. Remote reppers should flag the repairer to the wars the guy he's repairing has active and should also include faction wars. Remote repairing should also activate the 60 second jump and dock timers. Whether that's simple for the devs to actually change and test is another thing entirely. It would be nice to get some response on the issue though.
Yes and no.
I can certainly see the problem you are describing here and agree.
But what if I am remote repping a gang mate outside of a PvP situation and while doing that he then gets jumped? Or what if I am trying to remote rep my freighter during a suicide gank in an attempt to save it?
I think the remote repper should gain a dock/jump timer if the people he is repping have a dock/jump timer active. Seems like something that should be easy to code but then I am not a programmer.
I also agree the repper should get flagged to all targets that could legally attack the guy getting repped. This should happen in all cases, even if they are sitting outside a station all peaceful goofing around with the reppers. Give the repping ship a 15 minute aggro counter.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.21 19:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
But what if I am remote repping a gang mate outside of a PvP situation and while doing that he then gets jumped? Or what if I am trying to remote rep my freighter during a suicide gank in an attempt to save it?
You're talking about two extremely unlikely cases and in both cases I'd still say the logistics ship should be a target.
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
I think the remote repper should gain a dock/jump timer if the people he is repping have a dock/jump timer active.
That's one a possible solution, and in fact it does preserve the idea of spider tanking without aggroing and being able to immediately dock (since you can dock while tanking manually, this makes sense). Could be tricky to implement but I wholeheartedly support it.
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Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Snake O'Donell
All of the above. The neutral only flags to the people who are actively engaging the WT that it is repping, and because there is no jump/dock timer the repper can just jump through once it starts taking damage.
When a neutral (A) reps a war target (B), he becomes flagged to the entire corp/alliance (C) who is at war with (B). Unless this has been ninja changed in a recent patch, this is the mechanic. Now I don't know if in FW functions the same way but it should. Even by overview colouring, you have "pilot is at war with your militia." A neutral repping a milita member should become flagged to the other militia, it makes sense.
If you want to talk about neutral remote repping war targets, that mechanic is working as intended. There's nothing to necessitate that neutral being an alt, could just be a guy working with the corp he's repping and being paid for it. If it is an alt, well, welcome to the meta game son. The piilot flags himself to you, you engage him. If he warps out, jumps out or docks up, he's not repairing anymore. Use that time wisely. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.21 22:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
When a neutral (A) reps a war target (B), he becomes flagged to the entire corp/alliance (C) who is at war with (B). Unless this has been ninja changed in a recent patch, this is the mechanic. Now I don't know if in FW functions the same way but it should. Even by overview colouring, you have "pilot is at war with your militia." A neutral repping a milita member should become flagged to the other militia, it makes sense.
This doesn't happen because a militia is a collection of many corps, not just that one NPC corp. That's part of the problem. |
Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.22 05:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nyphur
This doesn't happen because a militia is a collection of many corps, not just that one NPC corp. That's part of the problem.
Stupid mechanic then. I'd assume, then, that remote repping someone flagged to State Protectorate only flags them to the pilots currently engaging, not the entire corp since it's NPC?
I don't think that's how it was meant to be, or if it was it's a bit silly since the milita is more or less a free wardec against a bunch of other corps. Can understand it might take a bit of work to sort the flags all out with that many corps involved but can't believe it would be impossible. Certainly needs looking at.
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Basil Yer
Gallente
Infamous Technologies
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Posted - 2009.01.22 05:41:00 -
[13]
Confirm in FW neutral logistic pilots do not become aggressed unless you target and engage the target he is repping. This needs to be changed and soon. I have seen a caldari FW corp use 2 neutral guardian pilots to gank many people, and say you go to help against said pilots you cant get the guardians they are not aggressed.
Sad also is these neutral guardian pilot pilots kill mails show nothing on the kill mail about there neutral guardian reps.
Please fix this CCP it is not civil. 
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Basil Yer
Gallente
Infamous Technologies
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Posted - 2009.01.22 05:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Basil Yer on 22/01/2009 05:48:52
Salutations my fellow capsuleers. This morning, I submitted this petion to CCP via the in-game interface: "As the subject line clearly indicates, gentlemen, something needs to be done about this. War targets are entering enemy high sec space to engage, and are either utilizing neutral shield/armor repairs to avoid the faction navy, or to survive encounters with their victims. The main problem with neutral logistics usage in FW or any other war declaration situation, is how it works. The neutral pilots have no aggression countdown timer, so they can safely flee the combat area by gate-jumping or docking up after they have already unfairly affected the ongoing fight.
Also, players must be engaged with their repair target before they become "flashy" and legal to shoot at. Meaning this: They have time to cycle off repairs, flee to safety, return and do it again, basically unhindered. This exploit (and EVERYONE currently in Gallente faction warfare agrees, and is equally ****ed off about this) has seen increasing usage on stations, where WTs and their neutral allies sit in Villore, and engage at a station, keeping their neutral logistics within docking range, firing off a few repair cycles and docking up-no significant threat to the logistics pilot/alt account recieved from the faction navy, and no aggression countdown timer meaning that whoever was shooting at the WT, can now aim at them, but unfortunately, they've safely docked up already.
Also, other pilots who are at war with the exploit user, CANNOT shoot at the logistics ship unless they were already shooting the ship being repaired. Can you not see how this is unfair? The only solution that comes to mind, is giving the "neutral" logistics ships an aggression timer so that they can't gate-jump for 30 seconds or dock up either, after repairing a ship currently engaged in combat. Also, they should become attackable by anyone at war with their repair target as well. The use of this exploit has been steadily on the rise in Black Rise region by Caldari militia, and I'm sad to say the Gallente now has people using it in retribution in Caldari high sec.
It's things like this that ruin the experience for everyone, on either side. Instead of CCP correcting the issue, players are now resorting to abusing this exploit even more. Please, intervene. Please. Thank you for the incredible amounts of work you put into this amazing experience that is EVE, I'm proud to be in my second year playing. I hope my explanation was clear enough, and once again, this is something worth looking into-the mechanics at least. Try it yourselves and see how unfair and frustrating it is when you're engaging someone and he gets help and your mates cant shoot his "neutral" buddies and they simply dock up and keep your target from dying, while he's steadily killing you." Hopefully, this gains a bit of momentum from our more experienced guys, and those who know what I'm talkng about. It's high time CCP corrected this issue, as we've been complaining about it and petitioning it for months and months. I can haz /bump?
Broke up the wall.
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Vibora BR
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Posted - 2009.01.22 13:42:00 -
[15]
It sounds as a exploit to me, CCP should take actions on it.
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Hrett
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.01.22 16:47:00 -
[16]
There is a caldari FW pilot that does this with a RR that is in the Gallente FW militia. Such bull****.
Are station dock games + expoiting really that fun?
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Monotard
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Posted - 2009.01.22 18:14:00 -
[17]
CCP don't seem to be paying much attention to Faction Warfare.
Multiple account holders are always welcome though.
which will win? Game balance or CCP wallet balance? |
No Beard
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
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Posted - 2009.01.23 11:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Monotard
CCP don't seem to be paying much attention to Faction Warfare.
Multiple account holders are always welcome though.
which will win? Game balance or CCP wallet balance?
This regarding the issue of neutral RR in general is pretty much to the point IMO.
Thank you for buying a second account, if you get into trouble just redock at any time. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.01.24 00:39:00 -
[19]
This is an interesting development. There's a fellow in the caldari militia camping the highsec station using twinned neutral logistics cruisers to rep him and each other. And you can only attack the logistics if you attack him first due to how the flagging system works. So everyone has to flag themselves individually against the logistics, making an assault on them very difficult. If he gets in trouble, he can just tank for 60 seconds and dock. If the logistics ships get in trouble, they can just dock straight away.
The only way to beat him would be to get an ecm ship to jam him, then using the flag obtained to the logistics pilots jam them, then load enough dps onto the guy to kill him within 60 seconds or he docks. And even in this case, the logistics ships can dock at any time because apparantly repairing a wartarget getting attacked doesn't count as aggression for the purposes of the docktimer.
Do we have to take this to jita before it's declared as an exploit?
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Tai Paktu
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.24 20:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: No Beard
This regarding the issue of neutral RR in general is pretty much to the point IMO.
Thank you for buying a second account, if you get into trouble just redock at any time.
This just in, EvE rewards metagaming. News at 11.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it's been this way for quite some time now.
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Spoon1
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.01.26 02:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tai Paktu
Originally by: No Beard
This regarding the issue of neutral RR in general is pretty much to the point IMO.
Thank you for buying a second account, if you get into trouble just redock at any time.
This just in, EvE rewards metagaming. News at 11.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but it's been this way for quite some time now.
And by the sounds of things will be like this for quite some time too. If i say adapt do i get a cookie? |
Saralle Zhukov
Minmatar
Win Tech
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Posted - 2009.01.26 11:21:00 -
[22]
Y'all need to mosy on over thataway & repost all this with a thumbs up. Saralle Zhukov points at the Assembly Hall.
If enough of you do that, the CSM (Council of Stellar Management) will pick up your grievance and carry it to CCP. Otherwise you are dependent on some DEV eventually reading this topic and I ain't seen any DEV's responding to to this yet.
-----------------------------------
Kill them all God will know his own. |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.01.26 17:18:00 -
[23]
Woot remote rep ships have become the falcons of highsec, although honestly the last remote rep ships I've seen was a scimitar basilisk pair in my own fleet that let my nanocane close to short range and scramble an astarte while his gang ran around the field failing to primary anything or work as a cohesive unit. Dead astarte, dead hurricane, woot. Top damage on both.
But honestly I see very few logistics ships on a daily basis out here. The aggro timer is about the one thing they have going for them and I agree its broke. |
earthless
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:52:00 -
[24]
Your choices are simply to return the favour or move on. It's been a feature of empire pvp for years, and ccp have never backed off on this issue.
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Vincent Death
Caldari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Vincent Death on 27/01/2009 14:26:28
Quote:
The only way to beat him would be to get an ecm ship to jam him, then using the flag obtained to the logistics pilots jam them, then load enough dps onto the guy to kill him within 60 seconds or he docks. And even in this case, the logistics ships can dock at any time because apparantly repairing a wartarget getting attacked doesn't count as aggression for the purposes of the docktimer.
Solution: don't engage idiots who play docking games. |
The Vixen
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:55:00 -
[26]
Edited by: The Vixen on 27/01/2009 14:56:59
HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN...
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Edit: Finished reading. I concur. |
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