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Why can't null sec capsuleers or factions shut down jump gates?

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Wu Jiaqiu Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:06:00 - [1] - Quote Title. I can't imagine why hostile ships can jump through without the permission of the staff working for their faction and living in these gates.
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 450	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:09:00 - [2] - Quote Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates.
Rek Jaiga Teraa Matar White-Lotus 254	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:10:00 - [3] - Quote Though an alliance may hold sovereignty of a system, and though the stargate may be of a particular empire's design specifications, the gates are owned and operated by CONCORD, which is an overwhelmingly neutral entity when it comes to the squabbles between empires and capsuleer alliances. At least, the public ones we all see and use. The empires and criminal groups alike own their own stargates in deadspace pockets.
Wu Jiaqiu Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:18:00 - [4] - Quote Yes but what is to stop the Amarr from storming the gate with soldiers and ships and jut take it over? Is concord that much of a deadly force?
Wu Jiaqiu Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:21:00 - [5] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates. Then what is the meaning of sovereignty in null sec regions if they can not operate gates? Are the Angels, Serptentis or pirate factions the operators of the gates? EDIT: In Non-NPC nullsec space
ValentinaDLM Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 485	Posted - 2012.04.18 21:47:00 - [6] - Quote Probably some jove conspiracy... For the record though, I am not aware of anyone actually trying to shut down or remove a stargate, however since concord can stop me from cloaking, something tells me they have a great deal of control over what my ship can and cannot do..... Which makes you really wonder why I and other capsuleers were allowed to assist master Kuvakei in the promised land, or his agents in many other upliftings.
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 450	Posted - 2012.04.18 22:05:00 - [7] - Quote Wu Jiaqiu wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: Because Capsuleers do not own or operate stargates. Then what is the meaning of sovereignty in null sec regions if they can not operate gates? Are the Angels, Serptentis or pirate factions the operators of the gates? EDIT: In Non-NPC nullsec space No, they are not the operators of their regions' stargate networks. Have you ever been denied stargate use because you shot some Serpentis in Serpentis territory? I didn't think so. I'm also fairly certain the Big Four empires (Caldari State, Gallente Federation, Amarr Empire, Minmatar Republic) are the only entities who operate (and build) their own stargates, and even they must abide by CONCORD's service and usage laws.
Caellach Marellus Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative 514	Posted - 2012.04.18 23:15:00 - [8] - Quote Though this does beg the question who exactly controls the stargates in Serpentis, Cartel etc systems. Because if it is CONCORD I can't help but wonder why they wouldn't use this to their advantage. Enjoy your gaming. http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com
Gosakumori Noh Viziam Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2012.04.19 00:07:00 - [9] - Quote Whenever I am near a gate when some vile criminal pops through, I think to myself, "now, sweeties, why didn't you just deny them the jump in the first place?" Primitive (wooden)gate-using societies understood that (wooden)gates weren't very secure if anyone who knocked was let through. At what point did (star)gate-using societies discard that precious knowledge? On the one hand, it is tempting to assume there are shadow transactions between forces unseen who somehow benefit from the absence of even a primitive understanding of security. On the other hand, never ascribe to malice what stupidity explains just fine.
Andreus Ixiris Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach 797	Posted - 2012.04.19 07:14:00 - [10] - Quote My gut wants to make some assertion along the lines of the idea that the empires know they can't stop movement of enemy combatants and criminals, so they don't bother to try, but that doesn't hold water - even if you can't stop such traffic, you can greatly impede it by shutting off its access to the fastest and most convenient means of interstellar travel, and it makes perfect sense to do so. The next excuse I want to jump to revolves around CONCORD, but CONCORD only really exists because the four empires agree it does. It one empire started wanting to regain full self-determination, CONCORD could leverage the other three empires to stop them, but if they all decided they no longer wished to be bound by CONCORD's oversight, there's very little that CONCORD could realistically do to force them. The gates are presumably kept running and entirely unfiltered by CONCORD order, but that still doesn't explain why CONCORD would let CONCORD-designated criminal entities use them with impunity. Excuses about making it easy for capsuleers to assist them, but that doesn't make sense either. They can let anyone with a good enough standing through while turning away the rest. It really makes no sense to me at all. So really, I'm going to have to be honest here and say I really have no idea. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor Animated Corporate Logos
Lyn Farel Kitzless 258	Posted - 2012.04.19 09:25:00 - [11] - Quote Caellach Marellus wrote: Though this does beg the question who exactly controls the stargates in Serpentis, Cartel etc systems. Because if it is CONCORD I can't help but wonder why they wouldn't use this to their advantage. I... do not know. My guess is that CONCORD controls the stargates in nullsec too, but it is a matter of capsuleer stargate network falling into their jurisdiction. If capsuleers are allowed to take over sovereignty in a lot of nullsec regions it is also because it is a source of exploration and wealth for the core empire regions. And as it is a capsuleer centered activity, it is naturally monitored by CONCORD operatives. Remember to whom capsuleers have to pay for establishing a sovereignty. All these nullsec stargates though, are a minority compared to smuggler, pirate, and civilian stargates that exist all around the cluster. Gosakumori Noh wrote: Whenever I am near a gate when some vile criminal pops through, I think to myself, "now, sweeties, why didn't you just deny them the jump in the first place?" Primitive (wooden)gate-using societies understood that (wooden)gates weren't very secure if anyone who knocked was let through. At what point did (star)gate-using societies discard that precious knowledge? On the one hand, it is tempting to assume there are shadow transactions between forces unseen who somehow benefit from the absence of even a primitive understanding of security. On the other hand, never ascribe to malice what stupidity explains just fine. Capsuleer standard stargates are far from being the only stargates in existence. CONCORD and the Empires also can not record and keep an eye on every conventional ship either. It is only logical that pirate elements can travel almost anywhere. Andreus Ixiris wrote: My gut wants to make some assertion along the lines of the idea that the empires know they can't stop movement of enemy combatants and criminals, so they don't bother to try, but that doesn't hold water - even if you can't stop such traffic, you can greatly impede it by shutting off its access to the fastest and most convenient means of interstellar travel, and it makes perfect sense to do so. The next excuse I want to jump to revolves around CONCORD, but CONCORD only really exists because the four empires agree it does. It one empire started wanting to regain full self-determination, CONCORD could leverage the other three empires to stop them, but if they all decided they no longer wished to be bound by CONCORD's oversight, there's very little that CONCORD could realistically do to force them. The gates are presumably kept running and entirely unfiltered by CONCORD order, but that still doesn't explain why CONCORD would let CONCORD-designated criminal entities use them with impunity. Excuses about making it easy for capsuleers to assist them, but that doesn't make sense either. They can let anyone with a good enough standing through while turning away the rest. It really makes no sense to me at all. So really, I'm going to have to be honest here and say I really have no idea. At the risk of falling into pure speculation, we have to keep in mind that CONCORD, even if supported and funded by all signatories, has now gained a lot of independance and autonomy. They would probably have to stand down if all the four factions wanted it, yes. Though I wonder what the fifth signatory would have to say on the matter. Maybe nothing.
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 114	Posted - 2012.04.19 11:11:00 - [12] - Quote in case you hadn't noticed, CONCORD does deny criminals permission to jump through the gate network... so long as they have an active GCC. a capsuleer who isn't currently flagged is a potent economic force. We represent a mobile accumulation of incredible wealth, and wherever we go is where that money lands. it's in CONCORD's interests that said money and power be allowed to flow largely unimpeded around New Eden, hence why the GCC system is in place, as opposed to a more permanent manhunt. That's why people like Ethan Verone are free to fly around without CONCORD denying him permission to use any of the stargates, and why stations grant him permission to dock. He's worth an incredible amount of ISK. Sure, I know there are plenty of DED officers and Federation Navy personnel who'd like to have a word with him, but the organisation as a whole actually benefits more from a free Verone than an imprisoned one. That's not corruption, by the way - that's their policy. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
Halete Teraa Matar White-Lotus 74	Posted - 2012.04.19 11:42:00 - [13] - Quote I believe that Stitcher just hit the nail on the head. I don't think CONCORD would appreciate the heat they got from the combined forces of all of New Eden's major players if CONCORD were denying so large of an opportunity to land in their laps. This is also an explanation for why a hostile acquisition of star-gates would be a political faux pas and isn't something that (that I know of) is a major threat. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á
Wu Jiaqiu Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2	Posted - 2012.04.19 13:15:00 - [14] - Quote Anyone think we need someone from CCP to clarify this?
Morwen Lagann Tyrathlion Interstellar 122	Posted - 2012.04.19 13:20:00 - [15] - Quote ... Who's CCP? And Verin - the jumping restriction for those with an active GCC only applies in high security space. In lowsec the only things that are going to prevent you from jumping are the short-term aggression timer and traffic control.
Unit XS365BT Unit Commune Celestial Imperative 55	Posted - 2012.04.19 14:01:00 - [16] - Quote Is it not Interbus who control the vast majority of stargates? a corporation known to be perhaps the most neutral entity within the cluster. We Return
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 114	Posted - 2012.04.19 14:02:00 - [17] - Quote Morwen Lagann wrote: ... Who's CCP? And Verin - the jumping restriction for those with an active GCC only applies in high security space. In lowsec the only things that are going to prevent you from jumping are the short-term aggression timer and traffic control. Weird alliance of capsuleer recluses that the Jovians for some reason allow to hold territory inside Jove Empire space. I've never met any of them, personally. And sure, I know the GCC only applies in highsec. It doesn't change my point, however. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
Morwen Lagann Tyrathlion Interstellar 122	Posted - 2012.04.19 14:15:00 - [18] - Quote Stitcher wrote: And sure, I know the GCC only applies in highsec. It doesn't change my point, however. Change, no. Clarify, yes - your wording implied another reality entirely, one that would make life hilariously difficult for those who consider their outlaw security rating a badge of honor. It was a distinction worth noting before someone panicked and started screaming about CONCORD changing protocol without notifying anyone.
N'maro Makari The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 49	Posted - 2012.04.19 15:45:00 - [19] - Quote The answer is really quite simple: They're the right combination of useful and expensive. N'maro Makari Director of Public Relations The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
Gosakumori Noh Viziam Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2012.04.19 16:42:00 - [20] - Quote Lyn Farel wrote: Capsuleer standard stargates are far from being the only stargates in existence. CONCORD and the Empires also can not record and keep an eye on every conventional ship either. It is only logical that pirate elements can travel almost anywhere Devious, independently constructed jump gates are fine for pirate factions wandering far from home. For traffic passing through non-independently constructed gates, however, CONCORD (or anyone with an floatie talkie), could ask the destination: "what are your patrols going to think of 'asdgh1234' should he appear?" Now, if CONCORD-or-whoever were particularly clever, they would implement a scheme not unlike that they employ with corporations: "Oh, you want your little pod to go through this gate, do you? Well, it so happens they want to shoot you on the other side and I would look awfully silly for letting... oh, this is terrible, someone has forgotten their wallet... Damn, that clever bastard 'asdgh1234' tiptoed behind me while I was distracted by a good deed!
Jev North Ghost Festival Naraka. 51	Posted - 2012.04.19 17:14:00 - [21] - Quote Gosakumori Noh wrote: Now, if CONCORD-or-whoever were particularly clever, they would implement a scheme not unlike that they employ with corporations: "Oh, you want your little pod to go through this gate, do you? Well, it so happens they want to shoot you on the other side and I would look awfully silly for letting... oh, this is terrible, someone has forgotten their wallet... Damn, that clever bastard 'asdgh1234' tiptoed behind me while I was distracted by a good deed! Mm. It'd probably have to be or-whoever, unless CONCORD wants an excuse to bleed some ISK out of the capsuleer economy. Think about it.
Gosakumori Noh Viziam Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2012.04.19 17:57:00 - [22] - Quote Jev North wrote: Gosakumori Noh wrote: Now, if CONCORD-or-whoever were particularly clever, they would implement a scheme not unlike that they employ with corporations: "Oh, you want your little pod to go through this gate, do you? Well, it so happens they want to shoot you on the other side and I would look awfully silly for letting... oh, this is terrible, someone has forgotten their wallet... Damn, that clever bastard 'asdgh1234' tiptoed behind me while I was distracted by a good deed! Mm. It'd probably have to be or-whoever, unless CONCORD wants an excuse to bleed some ISK out of the capsuleer economy. Think about it. Granted, it would be taking money out of the capsuleer economy. However, that money would go to a "good cause" in "baseline" societies (and may even help mitigate ISKflation slightly). If the amount taken were both reasonable and not evenly distributed, "vice capitals" would emerge, where locals encouraged whoever runs the gates to "look the other way more often than Amarr." Viva Las Luminaire! Closing gates to Kill On Sighters altogether would also have an expansionary effects. In planetary environments, KOS leaders of nefarious drug cartels (or fanatical terrorist organizations) often remain within their mountain villas,and tend not to cross into jurisdictions that want them dead or tortured. Instead, they employ others to move around for them, expanding employment (and the distribution of narco-terrorist-capital). At sufficient scale, such operations might even lay the foundations for entire national economies. For example, a primitive empire might use the prudence of its oppressive neighbor's gate policies to short-term economic advantage. Whoever is running the show is simply missing the big picture! They could have so much more stimulating fun with their powers of traffic control.
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 811	Posted - 2012.04.19 18:15:00 - [23] - Quote I should remind you all that in certain nullsec regions you also run into pirate stargate designs. The empires are not the only ones to construct stargates, and I would guess that nullsec pirates who build stargates don't simply turn over the controls to CONCORD when they're finished building the gate. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members!
Calfis The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities 84	Posted - 2012.04.19 20:56:00 - [24] - Quote Wu Jiaqiu wrote: Why can't null sec capsuleers or factions shut down jump gates? Why would nullsec empires want to shut off gates in the first place? We feed on war and conflict. Empires that don't fight grow fat and crumble.
Graelyn Knights of Kador Aegis Militia 233	Posted - 2012.04.20 02:39:00 - [25] - Quote Because! And don't you forget it! + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 1425	Posted - 2012.04.30 03:29:00 - [26] - Quote The gates will even let pirate vessels through. You ever wonder how you can clean a system out of Serpentis assets yet still ships show up in the belts? They too can use the gates. We don't see them because they are not connected to our channels and they would not stick around very long until they are at their hive, nest, assigned belt, or wherever. There cannot be a central control of gates to control who goes through and where because there are a lot of gates and a lot of pilots when you include all non-capsuleers. So they don't know if a person, no a capsuleer, is a pirate or just an individual trying to make his way going through a gate. I suspect it's far easier with us, because we are networked via fluid routers feeding data into the neocom and subspace beacons. This is why only a capsuleer can be denied entry into secured space at certain times. The top of the food chain is not always the most protected spot. I would rather not see them have lockdown controls on all gates at all times. Gates have to be a short affair, given this abundance of stark raving mad pilots who hang out of them and try to kill everybody else. So I think the lack of controls on the gates has more to do with our benefit than anything else.

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