Bug that causes outposts to not respawn:
Say militia A is running the timer in the plex. Militia B shows up and forces Militia A out of the plex and begin running the timer. Militia A comes back and forces Militia B out and runs the timer until the timer goes to what is normally "captured" on the timer progress bar that you see in space. However, the timer "bugs" and the capture message does not appear in local (even though the progress bar, or timer on the button shows captured). Militia A now has two options, they can spend the extra time and continue to sit on the timer until the capture message shows up in local, or they can choose (or be forced) to leave to plex before the capture message (in local) appears. If the second scenario happens, and Militia A leaves the plex before the message in local appears, the plex will despawn just like any other "captured" plex and close. However, it will not respawn. So, outposts can be removed from circulation thus making a system "unattackable" intentionally. Also keep in mind that this can be caused unintentionally (such as two militias fighting over the the plex, and whoever wins the plex doesn't know any better and warps off when the timer reads captured, but no green message in local to say that the plex was actually captured, or that militia knows of the bug, tries to sit on the timer for an extra amount of time, but is forced to leave the plex because of a blob coming for them).

Again to recap the conditions that must be met:
1) Members of opposing militias must each control the timer at some point
2) The militia that controls the timer originally must be the militia to capture the plex for the bug to occur. (So in an A->B->A->Captured format) If Militia A controls the timer and then Militia B comes and and kicks Militia A out and captures it (A->B->Captured) the bug will not occur (at least that is what I have witnessed).
3) Militia A must vacate the plex so it will despawn sometime between the progress bar showing "captured" and the local message showing up in local.

Am I correct in the details of the bug? I haven't seen it happen unless control of the timer changes hands at least twice.

Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?

That'd be pretty gay if that was the case. That quote right there is what I mailed hans the other day when I asked him if you told him about the bug. He said that you told him about it so I sent him as much information as I could regarding it.

I suggest he ignore CCP Exploit warning and keep it up. POst about it some more on forums... smack us in local thats its 'working as intended'.

Of course Fw complex bugs can occur when both sides on timer. And of course its not petionable when it occure in course of normal gameplay...

Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?

Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?

Good that you reminded me. I must immediately petition following gallente pilots for coming into Pavanakka medium plex (I dont remember everyone who was there) this wednesday and as result of fighting over timer, the timer was bugged.

X Gallentius
Hrett
Erik18black (or something)

Because according to GM, they were guilty of a bannable offense. Petition time!

I think that would be considered a bug.
Using your own opposing faction alt to trigger that bug would probably be considered exploiting a bug.
Key word is exploiting.

So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?

So if you want to bug plex you ask your fellow milita member to log his opposing militia alt to bug plex. Is that how gallente does it to avoid exploit ?

Pretty much. Using friends alt leaves the "reasonable doubt" defense there. Of course account sharing is widely practiced.
But as said, the stance of gallente militia and CCP is and has always been "It is acceptable for Gallente to do it but not for Caldari".

Hell, Val Erian even accused the "standings" thing we did in Metropolis as response to HIS (and Ankhs) continued use of it to be an exploit now, when we have CCP's official answer that "This is working as intended". So how does it go Val, banhammer for you?

I just edited my post as you posted that lol

Intentionally triggering any bug that isnt working as intended would be exploiting that bug.

I petitioned some gallente players two years ago from activity like this, ccp did not see any problem. Now after 2 years they have decided that it is bannable to do that

If your powers of explanation are as weak as your powers of comprehension perhaps you just didnt explain yourself very well?

If you would like me to reword any petitions you have into something that doesnt make you sound like an ass i could probably help :)

I can tell you guys one thing though, if you want this to be resolved, name calling and saying that CCP constantly favors one side or another isn't going to get you very far.

I can tell you guys one thing though, if you want this to be resolved, name calling and saying that CCP constantly favors one side or another isn't going to get you very far.

Because of the limited contributors to this thread, and how heavily role play / faction based the discussion is, It looks far more like a personal beef between factional enemies than it does a FW community-wide issue. That doesn't mean this bug isn't real, or that it shouldnt be looked at, but the way its being discussed and the fact that very few people are discussing it works against a speedy resolution.

I'd highly recommend paring back the "Your side does this. No YOUR side does it more. No, YOUR SIDE DID IT FIRST" dialogue and get more people in here confirming that this is going on, that its interfering with normal gameplay, and that the player base as an entitiy seeks resolution of the matter. That will encourage CCP to look into fixing this more than anything else.

Name calling, conspiracy theorization, biasing accusations and what-so will lead to nowhere.

Fact is that there is a bug, and it has been heavily used by some players that can't see themselves in disavantage and counter it with group work and strategy. If you (any of you, from whatever faction) got caught or not is also not the issue. Just live with it.

Name calling, conspiracy theorization, biasing accusations and what-so will lead to nowhere.

Fact is that there is a bug, and it has been heavily used by some players that can't see themselves in disavantage and counter it with group work and strategy. If you (any of you, from whatever faction) got caught or not is also not the issue. Just live with it.

I've witnessed this bug being exploited several times, with the result being that this or that system can not be plexed back to the former faction occupancy, being locked to the exploiter faction due to plexesjust stop spawning in the time they were suppose to be.

Fix the bug, and warn/3rd strike ban exploiters until then. That would be all needed to be done.

no wonder you have seen lot of exploiting, you are part of q-cats who are well known exploiters.

I truly hope you have petitioned every time those exploiters or CCP may ban you too.

Thats pretty rich lol.

And damar, not sure ive seen anyone deny anything. People here are just asking for a fix. This you must realise would stop both sides doing it lol.

So why so defensive? Stop with the persecution complex please.

If ccp deems it not working as intended and you continue to exploit it, then that is between you and ccp.

We have been asking for a fix more than 2 years, but ccp has not seen any problem...

Well now someone has explained it to them properly without sounding like an ass they have said it is an exploit. Shouldnt you be happy?

Heh heh, it seems now that gallentes are using their own alts and attempting to frame me for an exploiter:)

Val Erian and Black Onyx society at it, the usual stuff.

Really? It would be a trivial thing for ccp to check ip addresses.

Nah, they are bugging timers when i'm in local and petitioning it by virtue of that. ie = I am in local and timer is bugged so it must be my fault. Too bad I saw their bugging alt leaving plex and local. Framing other person for exploiting. I think that is a fairly serious thing.

As to what we did in agoze to put a person in a plex to delay it from closing is not the same. We used an account to keep a dead space open.

Val would have to be stupid to think that ccp would not check ip's. You would have to be stupid to think that is what he is doing.

Nice to admit you did but there is still nothing that can be done about the fact that cloaker is inside a plex. Does not matter if you keep account for it either, those are easy to run with buddy programs, etc. And you did the same in Aivonen, etc. and even gave some proof to CCP but naturally, no action.

Damar I am trying to say that what you did is shutting down the way the game is supposed to play. Your argument that a person in a plex and is exploiting dead space is not the same. A dead space does not close if the person is in it that is the way it is supposed to be but you are shutting the mechanics off and logging off. There is a difference and we took that to CCP and they made the decision that it was.

Goes to show you have no clue how this bug actually operates...

Damar I am trying to say that what you did is shutting down the way the game is supposed to play. Your argument that a person in a plex and is exploiting dead space is not the same. A dead space does not close if the person is in it that is the way it is supposed to be but you are shutting the mechanics off and logging off. There is a difference and we took that to CCP and they made the decision that it was.

And Crosi, his alt was in system only briefly since it is needed only briefly. It also helps how he bragged in local about "me bugging another plex" when I had not been in system or online for over an hour and saying he petitions me.

Assuming all this is pretty obvious, the only reason i can think of that you would take a standings hit and kill caldari alts is if you knew full well that val was trying to despawn plexes that you had already bugged earlier in the day.

That would make you a bold faced liar right now damar.

Damar if you want to put our accounts in a dead space cloaked all day to prevent it from closing please do so it will make so many of us happy. If i do something you feel is wrong PETITION it and if ccp tells me to stop then I do so. You got told to stop and like a child are raging about it. I am sorry that CCP did not side with you this time but really get over it.

I am going to hate this until CCP fixes it because now when a plex gets bugged by an actual accident the other players will just leave knowing what they are doing to shut it down and that will not be petitionable. Sad Really this is Sad.

Just whine that it's only Caldari doing it, come on, I know you want to and that's what you hint there. Because your side persistently maintains the bullshit that they have never done anything wrong. (Agoze, Pavanakka, Aivonen to name but a few), not to mention Chatgris and co. constantly using "lets have the timer run down by itself" bug. You might wish that nobody remembers events from 1-2 year away but I do.

snip the usual drivel and temper tantrums by the boy who plays Damar.

This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.

Accidentally triggering this effect is of course not the same thing.

The afk cloaking scenario was deemed normal game mechanics and no bug was being abused there. They are separate cases. This has nothing to do with the Gallente or Caldari militias, both sides can abuse this bug.

Also note that our rulings here may seem inconsistent, because it is often difficult to verify someone's intention when this bug happens. We cannot take any action against a player where we aren't reasonably sure they were doing this intentionally. You have openly stated to us that you are doing this intentionally, so there is no argument there.

This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.

So it only took CCP couple of YEARS to pay attention to the timer bug despite it being reported multiple times. Way to go. I quess your froggie overlords did get scared by the existence of the bug now when it mattered.

But it's good thing you have at least clarified it but to anyone with historical knowledge of FW, it also continues GM/CCP track record of taking action only when Gallente side deems it is working against them. It must be annoying to you that despite your best efforts, Caldari militia refuses to die down.

However, insulting CCP and the GM team by somehow implying we control them or they favor us in any way in a public forum while you have been warned already is just plain stupid.

This thread has devolved into personal attacks and bickering faster than a two dollar hooker can wolf down a sausage.

This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.

Accidentally triggering this effect is of course not the same thing.

The afk cloaking scenario was deemed normal game mechanics and no bug was being abused there. They are separate cases. This has nothing to do with the Gallente or Caldari militias, both sides can abuse this bug.

Also note that our rulings here may seem inconsistent, because it is often difficult to verify someone's intention when this bug happens. We cannot take any action against a player where we aren't reasonably sure they were doing this intentionally. You have openly stated to us that you are doing this intentionally, so there is no argument there.

So it is all right to bug plexes if you say it was accidentally, good to know.

3. Realise what a silly idea it was to post on the forum then hope that you can continue to exploit the bug but throw up as many smokescreens as possible in the hopes that GM's cant gather the client/user/ip/transaction data to incriminate you and your friends and alts while you carry on exploiting in spite of clear adjudication from CCP.

I think that just about covers it lol.

No, they way you do this properly is;

1. Declare on these forums you are going to exploit the bug.

2. Then the bug is clearly declared an exploit.

3. Realise what a silly idea it was to post on the forum then hope that you can continue to exploit the bug but throw up as many smokescreens as possible in the hopes that GM's cant gather the client/user/ip/transaction data to incriminate you and your friends and alts while you carry on exploiting in spite of clear adjudication from CCP.

I think that just about covers it lol.

This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.

Accidentally triggering this effect is of course not the same thing.

The afk cloaking scenario was deemed normal game mechanics and no bug was being abused there. They are separate cases. This has nothing to do with the Gallente or Caldari militias, both sides can abuse this bug.

Also note that our rulings here may seem inconsistent, because it is often difficult to verify someone's intention when this bug happens. We cannot take any action against a player where we aren't reasonably sure they were doing this intentionally. You have openly stated to us that you are doing this intentionally, so there is no argument there.

SORRY MENT TO SAY "YOUR accounts"

Damar is right though, it's taken years for CCP to fix the stupidest things about FW plexing mechanics. Many props to Damar for being so loud on the forums that the devs couldn't ignore him this time.

They certainly can, and they certainly will as long as this issue is discussed as this angry personal dispute between factions with accusations of CCP enforcement bias. Bickering back and forth for years has paints the issue as one that annoys a few dogmatic roleplayers locking horns, and not one that affects the militias as a whole and is worth serious development time.

This has to be dealt with rationally and from a mechanical standpoint, and sitting around saying "its always the other faction abusing this not me" and constantly challenging GM rulings gets the issue zero traction in terms of getting fixed.

If bickering over factional crap is more important that getting the bug fixed, by all means, everyone in here should keep at it. But those that care more about seeing the bug get fixed have got to learn to curb the finger pointing and discuss the issue itself, or get more of the community at large into threads like this one which have cropped up numerous times now. They always break down into bickering among the usual half dozen suspects, and are very likely continuing to be de-prioritized by CCP as a result.

You can go Hans Jagerblitzen to lick CCP devs asses freely, i do not care. But truth is that Gallente or minmatar could not face Caldari power on original rules , so ccp has to change things to make it possible for useless gallente to get systems back, even exploiting did not help them, CCP did help them to take systems back.

This is also funny that CCP made systems that there should be something to fight for 24/7 but now it is allowed to deny that, no matter what is way people prevent conquered plexes respawning is always exploit that prevent game mechanic to work as intended.

They certainly can, and they certainly will as long as this issue is discussed as this angry personal dispute between factions with accusations of CCP enforcement bias. Bickering back and forth for years has paints the issue as one that annoys a few dogmatic roleplayers locking horns, and not one that affects the militias as a whole and is worth serious development time.

I'm glad he brought the issue up in an open forum, and saddened that, even though everybody agrees that getting rid of this stupid bug is a good idea, there is still much bickering to be had. Let's hope the GMs/Devs continue to place a high priority on fixing FW mechanics. I am looking forward to a relevant militia tab next week.

BM would you be refering to when DT was the only time that plex spawns happened and ever two hour increments only had scraps of plexes to be had. I understand how you might feel origional ways then but not much hope when the pervs all EU had DT covered and us US TZ players could not log on. How dare CCP give us a chance at anything. Again another laughable and utterly rediculus statement from you that has no evidence to support it and no bearing on the real issue

And now they real issue is being resolved by CCP

Let's hope the GMs/Devs continue to place a high priority on fixing FW mechanics. I am looking forward to a relevant militia tab next week.

If bickering over factional crap is more important that getting the bug fixed, by all means, everyone in here should keep at it.

Since your last attempt at Oicx failed you will call for 80 minmatar to help?

First of all,sory for my crap english.

Now,the important part.

As some of you may know,i live in Oicx for last 3 year (if you want to shoot me,please drop by) and it is nice home sistem.

As i do ocasionly go for my 1 moonth eve break sometime i have nice suprise whan i come back finding out that some new guys did move in local and lot of fighting is to be done.But this time,once i returned,i did find out that sistem was switched to caldari control and Damar and his corp moved in,and i was hapy till i noticed something wierd.

I did try to retake sistem in 2 ocasions but didnt manage it cose of my gametime limitation,pirats,caldari militia and so,but next day whan i came back to try again i find out than there was no plexis at all in sistem.WIERD.So something suspicios was going on.

But after reading Damars post on forums,where he discus how tu bug a plex so it dose not respawn till next DT,i ask him personaly in local to stop doing it and he was told that his actions are gona be petitioned,he replayd childish saying he dont care,he is gona keep on doing it till CCP dose something,and in his personal opinion he was convinced that no reaction will come from CCP part.

After frapsing him buging the plex whit his gall alt,and provading lot of local chats log where he openli speak about his exploiting,he just got a warning from CCP and still write in here abouth suposed bug and his inocenc.Im not gona place his statment in here,but leme ashure you that he was intentionali using a bug to make game advantage over other players,avoid game mechanich and the way thay supose to work :All this actions are condiserd an EXPLOIT and not some inocent bug hapening ocasionly from time to time.

It is truth that CCP nead to fix this bug.But it dosent make a victim a guy who intentionaly EXPLOIT this bug for 2 weeks preventing me and other Gall militia members to plex in sistem and try to retake it ,by simply loging in after DT and using his gall alt to remove all plexis from sistem.

Im suprised to so CSM members posting in here and taking side in this mather whithout knowing what is actuali hapening in here.

EXPLOTER GOT WHAT HE DESERVED (not realy cose exploiting is =BAN in most of the escenarios)

So Damar stop posting lies and pretend to be the victim or i will have to bring some more intersting information abouth your activitis in Oicx.

Thx for reading and sory for bad english.
PRAZ

EDIT: Im shure CCP didnt ask you to publicli post the way you EXPLOIT is working,cose before you get warning from CCP you did keep it for yourself and now that you cant do it any more you are sharing it to involve more ppl into exploiting this bug so we take our ayes of you,but you are wrong.

You intentions are not good and you just made this game more exploitabel sharing you personal exploit on forums.SHAME ON YOU behaving as a small child.

I am looking forward to a relevant militia tab next week.

Im suprised to so CSM members posting in here and taking side in this mather whithout knowing what is actuali hapening in here.

The FW update will come in May not next week I'm afraid.

We're getting a relevant militia tab next week? Do you have a source for this?

The FW update will come in May not next week I'm afraid.

Actually, I've consistently refused to take sides in this conflict. It is not my place to call accuse Damar or Bad Messenger of exploiting (They admit this themselves, so there's nothing to discuss) and it's not my place to accuse the Gallente of doing this either since I don't live in your space and see things going on. That is the job of the GM's, not the CSM. All either side can do is petition problems and let the GM's handle the matter. They are the ones that gather evidence and sort through the data, I don't have access to their data so Its never my place to say that one side is doing this or the other. I have a responsibility to remain neutral, and I've done so.

The only thing I said I'd do was ask about the status of the bug, and you guys have gotten the answer, the bug is in the queue to be fixed. My work here is done for the time being, unless CCP persists in NOT fixing the bug. If it continues after the FW expansion than it will be time for me to take action again, if no other reason than I can't wait to see the bug fixed so there's nothing to complain about anymore.

It is not my place to accuse Damar or Bad Messenger of exploiting

still you accusing me about exploiting.

WTF you are talking about? You have no data and still you accusing me about exploiting. Good way to play CSM.

This is a bug, and is scheduled to be fixed in a future patch. Abusing this intentionally is NOT allowed. Period.

Was this bug fixed in this patch? If not, is there any way you could provide a timeframe for the future patch for when it will be fixed?

Not fixed with Escalation. I can get get other people to confirm that as well.

Yeah, ignoring the politics, the larger issue is that this is a bug that disrupts normal gameplay.

We need to collectively focus on this fact rather than finger pointing. If we ensure that CCP makes the effort to fix the issue, then the discussion regarding its exploitation will be rendered irrelevant.

Yesterday Gallentes removed two plexes from circulation in Kedama, at least one pilot was petitioned for it. Knowing CCP, they will not take action since gallentes were involved.

Yesterday Gallentes removed two plexes from circulation in Kedama, at least one pilot was petitioned for it. Knowing CCP, they will not take action since gallentes were involved.

As a side note, for the sake of ensuring the issue gets assigned to the proper staff members, I would strongly advise against making any accusations of exploiting in your bug report, and instead include that information into a SEPARATE report.

This because any such accusations will immediately cause the report to be sent to the community team, who will then sit on the issue if they can get away with it until it becomes irrelevant. Not because CCP is chosing sides, but because sitting on an issue is much easier than trying to appease angry mobs.

In other words, give in to terrorists. F..k no. I should never have reported this one since CCP is content to let gallente side keep using this bug without repercussions as I bit expected.

Well, you get warning only because you are part of Caldari militia and preventing CCP plans to make gallente to win.

I recommend that everyone quits militia right now because normal game play may cause you to get bans.

CCP has finally gone too far.

This must be related to their new goal to make WoW in space.

Yeah, ignoring the politics, the larger issue is that this is a bug that disrupts normal gameplay.

We need to collectively focus on this fact rather than finger pointing. If we ensure that CCP makes the effort to fix the issue, then the discussion regarding its exploitation will be rendered irrelevant.

Hey folks, we've been reviewing FW deployment with the CSM, who pointed this thread as one of the long, bitter issues that need to be looked into.

We had this issue investigated a few weeks back before Inferno deployment and we believed we fixed it back then. Obviously it's not, we'll have another look into it.


Thanks for the update!

Am I correct in the details of the bug? I haven't seen it happen unless control of the timer changes hands at least twice.


Also, what is GM stance on the bug happening unintentionally? Because the bug does occur when militias just happen to be fighting over the plex, and the above conditions are met, the bug will occur. Will the GM department attempt to make the distinguishment between the bug simply occuring during "normal" gameplay and intentionally attempting to trigger the bug?

Hi all, I've been asked to take a look in to this issue.

Firstly, let me say that arguing about who has or hasn't used tactic X is not something I'm concerned with here. If you have issues about something being an exploit or not, or accusations of someone cheating, please keep it to yourself (or file a petition). My only concern with this is getting to the bottom of what is happening to these stuck plexes, and finding a solution. Apart from the quoted post and the OP, the noise in this thread is simply no help to me whatsoever in this regard. So from now on, please consider this a problem-solving thread, not a mud-slinging one. I'll start asking the moderators to take action if this doesn't improve. I don't care what side of FW you represent, I just want to let you all get on with blowing stuff up in a reliable manner, so let's drop the "CCP prefers side Y over Z" stuff, OK?

So, with that out of the way...
When I first read the post above, it seemed that a reliable reproduction case would be straightforward to develop. However I've been testing this for a while, and have been unable to make it happen at all on my test server. I must be missing something, if it is as reliable as some suggest.

Here's what I'm doing:
* Characters A and B in opposing NPC militias, in B's space (so A is attacker, B is defender)
* A warps in to a minor outpost and approaches the beacon. The countdown starts
* After one minutes, B warps in and approaches the beacon. Beacon becomes contested (at around 9mins)
* A warps out. Beacon now starts counting back for B (from 11mins)
* A warps back in to the plex. Beacon becomes contested again.
* B warps out. Beacon starts counting back for A again.
* Once the timer expires, the beacon becomes captured, and the "Site has been captured" message immediately appears in local for A
* A warps out
* Around 30 minutes later, a new instance of the plex reappears on scan, as normal.

As you can see, I'm failing to get a repro, following what appears to be the steps mentioned by Super Chair. So, what am I missing?

Like I said above, please keep your replies constructive. If you're not posting something that might be useful to me for fixing this, then don't post it.