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Revolting Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:34:00 - [31] A very interesting idea. A few things that come to mind are * Slotcosts, is it possible to pay those privately while using locked down corp BPO ? * 50 clients would need up to 600 manufacturing slots which means that a large number of offices will be needed to accomodate them. * Internal conflicts. anyone who has been a corp director in a medium sized corp knows that conflicts happen and require time to resolve. Would this be something this corps director spend time on ? How would they be reimbursed for that ? The minerals/delivery/canceling issue could be solved by having the corp run a mineral float with set prices. Members build from these minerals and factories deliver straight into a hangar and the results are then moved to a private hangar by a director as soon as the member proves that a) it was his job and b) he has paid the associated costs for mineral and slots. __________________________ You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:22:00 - [32] To stop people from stealing other people's produce just have it noted to all producers that their items should have output set to "output hangar". Restrict output hangar access to ONLY staff or yourself. Contract the output to the owner once it comes out. Fairly quick to just set a few contracts (or just dump direct into their hangars). As per the issue of people trying to claim other peoples goods, this is easy to resolve. The API now tracks science and industry research/manufacturing etc. It lists client name, time of completion, bpo, quantity etc. Everything you need. Now I don't think it shows historical data but i'm sure you could get someone with some basic skills in this area to create you a simple web app that pulls this data hourly so you can track the stuff.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Ricdic To stop people from stealing other people's produce just have it noted to all producers that their items should have output set to "output hangar". Restrict output hangar access to ONLY staff or yourself. Contract the output to the owner once it comes out. Fairly quick to just set a few contracts (or just dump direct into their hangars). As per the issue of people trying to claim other peoples goods, this is easy to resolve. The API now tracks science and industry research/manufacturing etc. It lists client name, time of completion, bpo, quantity etc. Everything you need. Now I don't think it shows historical data but i'm sure you could get someone with some basic skills in this area to create you a simple web app that pulls this data hourly so you can track the stuff. Still mussing with corporate roles, still haven't found a way around the mass cancel problem but I could have sworn the solution is in there somewhere. If I don't find it by today I'll just petition can get a straight answer that way. Having the dead set rule that all jobs output to X hanger and then having a director contract these items out, could possibly add more overhead than any one director would want to take on depending on the work load.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:20:00 - [34] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/01/2009 15:25:31 First of all there's the matter of valuing the BPOs (NPC price?) in the broad context of investors dropping in a copious amount of junk BPOs which lowers the return for everyone involved, while a small hand of profitable BPOs will be highly sought after. Originally by: Ricdic To stop people from stealing other people's produce just have it noted to all producers that their items should have output set to "output hangar". Restrict output hangar access to ONLY staff or yourself. Contract the output to the owner once it comes out. Fairly quick to just set a few contracts (or just dump direct into their hangars). As per the issue of people trying to claim other peoples goods, this is easy to resolve. The API now tracks science and industry research/manufacturing etc. It lists client name, time of completion, bpo, quantity etc. Everything you need. Now I don't think it shows historical data but i'm sure you could get someone with some basic skills in this area to create you a simple web app that pulls this data hourly so you can track the stuff. Assuming something is done by CCP about the possibility of corporate jobs being canceled by just any corp member, Ricdic's idea reduces considerably the risk of theft but doesn't eliminate it completely (raw materials can still be stolen seconds before they're sucked in the manufacturing job). Lowering the risk by dividing the BPOs between a high number of offices / divisions is counterproductive as well especially when considering that continuous production is impossible to achieve while everyone is FFA. I for one would round up the most profitable BPOs and lease them via an auction. The winner must pay a part of the rental fee in advance and decides where and who will have access to the BPOs thus keeping the risk of theft in house. Instead of a constant interaction on the staff's behalf (implied by Ricdic's idea) the staff could use API keys to determine minimum profit obtained from the monthly production. Black Sun Empire
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:22:00 - [35] Edited by: Nyphur on 25/01/2009 15:23:00 EDIT: Didn't read ricdic's post properly. I had no idea the API did this ^^ EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
J Carreg Royal industry and research Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:52:00 - [36] Edited by: J Carreg on 25/01/2009 15:55:17 Apart from the already stated problems of security, I cant see this working without alot of effort on the part of directors. The idea of joining a research alliance to do copys is problematic as you cant copy over alliance set permissions. They can only be done over corp permissions. This is the same with invention. Also add to that that is someone wanted a max run BPC of any type of ram, that would take 3 days to copy (allowing for around 50PE and max skills). This would be alot longer for capital compnonents and capital ship BPOs. There was an intresting case of setting the permissions so that anyone could install a job, but only directors could complete the job. This would only require someone logging in once a day and completing the job, thus allowing less work for the directors and getting around the 'cancel job' issue. As for the shares being given on as per NPC prices, I dont think that is very fair and is open to manipulation. Say I have a Battleship BPO that I have spent 6 months researching to ME60. Thats alot of time invested into the BPO and I would be getting the same dividends as someone who has just bought a battleship BPO from the market that day and thrown it into your hands. I think more thought would be required on this as to the pricing of the researched BPO's. So in conclusion yes I think the idea is possible once you get around the mass cancellation of jobs and other security risks that may be incured. I have several BPO's that I dont use at the moment due to them being not as profitable as is worth my time and would be wiling to invest them into this IPO. But as YGR stated, you will probably have alot of BPO's that dont give a good profit aand very few of the ones that do.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.25 16:01:00 - [37] I have been playing with the roles and there are some significant problems: 1. cancellation, I was able to do it easily 2. potential theft, when minerals sit in the corp hangar while job is set up 3. Output to hangar needs director involvement I think the above make it very difficult to complete. The only way I see to guarantee security is to give a corp hangar division to one person. This creates the problem of what BPO's go in there. The only way I could see that working is players bid on a package of BPO or BPO's per month. I was thinking 5% of NPC value of BPO upto max 50M per BPO. This would make it an actual lease program. Again problem is that if someone is leasing a Raven print at 50M ISK per month, its only profitable with lots of runs which require Billions in minerals. Hardly a starter person. Next issue is return. I would want only well researched BPO's to make it appealing, but how to value a return. 50M ISK for a well research BS BPO or 20M for a BPC. Is that good for the owner or not? Due to the theft/cancellation issue reducing realistic access this is going to be a very difficult thing to do.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2009.01.25 16:55:00 - [38] For the output idea you could have the client setup the contract when they start their manufacturing job. That way they are using their contract slots and pay the fees that go along with it. Then all the director/staff would have to do is verify they manufactured what they said and fill the contract.
Chaos Dreams	Posted - 2009.01.25 17:58:00 - [39] Some thoughts... Firstly, I think instead of just accepting BPO's from the shareholders you should open it up to BPO's or ISK. Those who have quality BPO's they're willing to invest can do so, those who don't can simply invest ISK which can be used to purchase BPO's. It can either be a straight ISK investment, or you can take the ISK, purchase some BPO's, and mark them as belonging to the investor when/if this venture ends. Not everyone who would be interested in investing will have BPO's on hand. They would then go out themselves and just buy a stack of BPO's to invest. This would be horribly ineffecient because you would most likely end up with a large surplus of some BPO's while having too few of others to meet your client's demands. If you know what BPO's you have, you would have a better idea which ones to buy with the newly invested ISK. This would give you more potential investors and a better selection of "good" BPO's. One of the issues raised was who gets access to which BPO. One possibility would be to set up a forum or website and take reservations. If someone wants to get access to a certain BPO they sign their name to the list and wait their turn. Some wouldn't want to wait in line and would pick other BPO's instead. When purchasing new BPO's you can also look at which ones have the longest line, which should tell you which you need more of. As the client base expands, and gets more skills, there's going to be greater demand on the BPO's. How is this going to be handled? Are there going to be a fixed number of maximum clients? A maximum number of BPO's lent to each person per month? Or are you going to keep expanding the BPO library? If the last, how? Will you reinvest a portion of the profits or seek new investors? If you seek new investors, won't that devalue the shares of your original investors as they will be getting a smaller portion of the profits? Another question: what if an investor wants out. They decide they're no longer interested in this venture, or decide they need the BPO's they invested for personal use again. How do you handle their withdrawl, when the BPO's they invested are likely in use and possibly have a waiting list? I also think the client fees need some work. Twenty million is a lot to someone who is truly new and trying to get started (and who can probably only manufacture ammo and other simple, low skill items). I think setting up different tiers, with different levels of access, is probably for the best. Another possible suggestion would be to contract with a mining or hauling corp to supply raw materials. Buy in bulk and sell to the clients at a fixed markup. With the volume to supply several manufacturers, the corp could probably get a good deal and make small but steady profit reselling to the clients. The clients would likely still save over buying and hauling themselves.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.25 18:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Nyphur Could extra manufacturing slots be handled using POS or do they still require that you have the materials in the factory? Yes, all the materials have to be placed in the POS arrays, which, unlike hangars, have limited capacities. As you rightly say, mass cancellation is another issue. It's a major disadvantage vs. doing a personal job, but it might not be a total deal-breaker. A deposit is a reasonably good precaution, but as more people join it would need to become larger as there would be more materials in the input hangars, and jobs in progress, at any one time. This would quickly become a bigger barrier to entry than the cost of purchasing BPOs - any one character only needs at most 22 at any one time, after all. One way of getting around this issue is granting only 'based at' hangar access; spread the BPOs over several stations, and give every member access to just one of them. This too has drawbacks, though - office rent in stations with build slots located anywhere near trade hubs tends to be in the region of 10m isk/month, and this would mean that most people would only have access to a small fraction of the available BPOs. Another note: once locked down, BPOs cannot be put into jobs at any other NPC stations in the same system. There are at most 50 available manufacturing slots in any one station, so it seems inevitable that this sort of venture would need to spread out significantly. The rent would probably not be too much of a problem, but when a station becomes popular it rises exponentially, and it would be a pain to have to move out large numbers of locked BPOs, especially when it takes votes from several people to unlock each one.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:23:00 - [41] Any updates on this? Black Sun Empire
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:41:00 - [42] Update I have really struggled to set up a good mechanism that provides security, keeps directors workload to a minimum, and offers a wide choice to potential members. detail: 1. Using the corp hangar allows another person to cancel jobs 2. Allows theft when goods are put into hangar before job is started To avoid theft corp jobs and roles can be set up to avoid any issues. To finish construction the directors have to complete the job. This means that the directors might not be in station, complete as quickly as member would like and more importantly a lot of work. The only way round the whole security issue seems to be setting up individual hangars for each member. This means that the members would have to bid on BPO packages that could be set up for them and in a fixed location. This reduces choice. I suppose once a package of BPO's is bid on, players could 'lease' their BPO's to the program and earn the bid minus a small handling fee? Again this will require a large amount of work by the directors. Still playing around with some ideas, but at the moment it is in the 'too difficult box'
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:01:00 - [43] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 28/01/2009 00:15:15 Originally by: cosmoray 1. Using the corp hangar allows another person to cancel jobs 2. To finish construction the directors have to complete the job. This means that the directors might not be in station, complete as quickly as member would like and more importantly a lot of work. 3. The only way round the whole security issue seems to be setting up individual hangars for each member. This means that the members would have to bid on BPO packages that could be set up for them and in a fixed location. This reduces choice. Maybe CCP can add another item in the input output drop-down list manufacturing box to allow raw materials for corp manufacturing jobs (locked down BPOs) to be taken from the personal hangar and finished products to be shipped there too upon job delivering (assuming that whoever starts the jobs also has query and take rights for that particular hangar division). And canceling corporate jobs and delivering should only be available to the owner and those with the appropriate roles. Anyone else has a better idea? Ideally one that circumvents the problems and does not require divine intervention? Black Sun Empire
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:44:00 - [44] Originally by: YouGotRipped Anyone else has a better solution? Ideally one that does not require divine intervention? If not, we should probably try to get an answer from CCP regarding the issues and see what they come up with. If I remember correctly, the answer two years ago was "Database difficulties prevent BPOs in corporate hangars to take from and output to personal hangars. Although perhaps LV can raise the issue again since it seems a logical corporate asset use.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:02:00 - [45] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 28/01/2009 01:10:40 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: YouGotRipped Anyone else has a better solution? Ideally one that does not require divine intervention? If not, we should probably try to get an answer from CCP regarding the issues and see what they come up with. If I remember correctly, the answer two years ago was "Database difficulties prevent BPOs in corporate hangars to take from and output to personal hangars. Although perhaps LV can raise the issue again since it seems a logical corporate asset use. With all due respect to CCP for what they've accomplished so far, if these issues are not solved, I'm leaving the game. I've never been drawn to PVP, nor am I interested in piling up isk for the sake of it.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:53:00 - [46] A wish list for this project. 1. Only people who start jobs can cancel them (or have a role for this defined in corp) 2. Output and input be from personal hangar. If those two wishes/needs were met then the business would be great. A corp member could have access to a huge amount of BPO's in total security. I think the idea will have to be shelved for know, unless someone comes up with a workaround that doesn't require large amounts of admin. One thing that does interest me is the large amounts of well researched BPO's that are out there gathering dust. When new manufacturing IPO's come up, I would recommend to CEO's that you would accept assets for shares in a corp (even better if locked down). You want to start a manufacturing business then take a 50/20 BPO for a direct investment in the corp instead of cash. This would be a huge time saver if you have to research prints. For example, it would have been advantageous for someone like Atima to take BPO's for shares directly, and the print holders get to monetize an asset sitting on the shelf.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:01:00 - [47] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Although perhaps LV can raise the issue again since it seems a logical corporate asset use. That might take a while. Alternatively, we could ask for community support (/signed will do) and then report the thread in order to bring the issues to CCP's attention. Originally by: cosmoray A wish list for this project. 1. Only people who start jobs can cancel them (or have a role for this defined in corp) 2. Output and input be from personal hangar. /signed Brought up in the Assembly hall, feel free to wander over and sign
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:14:00 - [48] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Although perhaps LV can raise the issue again since it seems a logical corporate asset use. That might take a while. Alternatively, we could ask for community support (/signed will do) and then report the thread in order to bring the issues to CCP's attention. Originally by: cosmoray A wish list for this project. 1. Only people who start jobs can cancel them (or have a role for this defined in corp) 2. Output and input be from personal hangar. /signed Brought up in the Assembly hall, feel free to wander over and sign
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:45:00 - [49] BPO rental seems like the best way to go. You would contract the BPO at NPC price + research premium + fee. Customer would make use of it, and then return it for NPC price + research premium. Make the research premium based on 50,000 isk/hour and the amount of fraud should be minimal. This would be best for cap ship and other high value BPOs, of course. Avoids all the DoS attacks and solves BPO location vs number of research slots problem. You could track the income generated by each BPO to determine which BPOs are junk and adjust payout accordingly.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:21:00 - [50] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 29/01/2009 16:24:56 Originally by: Clair Bear BPO rental seems like the best way to go. You would contract the BPO at NPC price + research premium + fee. Customer would make use of it, and then return it for NPC price + research premium. Make the research premium based on 50,000 isk/hour and the amount of fraud should be minimal. This would be best for cap ship and other high value BPOs, of course. Avoids all the DoS attacks and solves BPO location vs number of research slots problem. You could track the income generated by each BPO to determine which BPOs are junk and adjust payout accordingly. The truth is that irrespective of how low the rental fee people will prefer buying their own BPOs off the market (they might stumble across killer deals) and reselling later. If the price is any lower or they notice WTB price spikes they will sell the BPOs themselves. It would work well though for BPOs that you want to dispose off or for those that are easy to research and replace or capital components BPOs that require a full set in order to be of any real use but then again if that's the case, you could start your own researching enterprise and forget the whole rental issue. Lockdown is the only option here.

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