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Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
   |
Posted - 2009.01.26 14:35:00 -
[1]
An ongoing source of frustration, for many players within the game, is the current Empire war-dec mechanic.
Without going into all the particular whines, I would like to propose the following:
1. The war-dec flags Alliance ---> Corp -----> Individual Players, as enemies.
2. Once decced, each of the preceding elements is flagged both collectively and individually.
3. If an Alliance has been decced and a Corp, within said Alliance, leaves said Alliance during the period of hostilities, the departing Corp remains flagged for the entire duration of hostilities against it's former Alliance.
4. If an Alliance, or a Corp has been decced and an Individual, within said Alliance, or Corp leaves said Alliance, or Corp during the period of hostilities, the departing Individual remains flagged for the entire duration of hostilities against it's former Alliance, or Corp.
5. Any group which takes in the retreating Corp or Individual, then and based on providing Aid and Comfort, is immediately flagged as a participant in the hostilities. In the case where said players move to an NPC corp, they will simply remain individually flagged.
6. Any neutral individuals that provide Aid and Comfort are, themselves, immediately flagged as participants in the hostilities. This includes providing logistics, materials, or any service or support that could be considered as assisting in the war effort.
For suppliers:
1. Any trader that sells materials to a member of a warring party has, themself, given Aid and Comfort and are immediately flagged as a participant in the hostilities.
2. In order to make it possible for traders to not become unwillingly involved, CCP should add a selectable option to sell orders, denying a sale to any party currently under a declaration of war.
3. Certain traders may wish to supply both sides. In such a case, they will become flagged to both sides, for the remainder of the hostilities.
These changes should make the Empire based war mechanic much more interesting.
Let me know of any outright problems, issues or possible improvements. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 19:03:00 -
[2]
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
=============== |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 26/01/2009 21:05:27
 Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Ah, but ship maker Joe would have the option to not sell to you.
If he did chose to sell to you, he would then, of course, face the consequences of his actions.
I suppose that such a system could actually give Empire wars some extra strategic possibilities.
Locking down a corps means of supply and actually strangling them into submission would be a very real scenario. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:07:00 -
[4]
This would just create a cycle of war dec'd corps using alts to make purchases. |
I SoStoned
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 21:52:00 -
[5]
The initial part of your argument I've been pushing for years... Persistant war flag per individual to stop the corp-jumping carousel.
But flagging a seller as hostile?? Uhhhh, no way in hell?
Look at things as they are now:
France sells war supplies to every middle eastern country attacking UN/Nato forces in the region. Is France thus at war with their neighbors by default?
Joe Shmoe goes down to the local hunters' supply store and purchase a shotgun which he then takes and blows Hank Hunkston's head off. Is Trader Tom now under arrest because Joe decided to use a legitmate, legal purchase as a murder weapon?
No.
Let's keep it that way. CCP does not allow us to block individuals, corps, or alliances from seeing or purchasing our orders. I don't suddenly want to find myself at war (at no cost to anyone) because some rube bought a single round of EMP S.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 23:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:51:38
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:50:00
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 26/01/2009 21:05:27
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Ah, but ship maker Joe would have the option to not sell to you.
If he did chose to sell to you, he would then, of course, face the consequences of his actions.
I suppose that such a system could actually give Empire wars some extra strategic possibilities.
Locking down a corps means of supply and actually strangling them into submission would be a very real scenario.
Re-read my post very slowly.... it might be hard for people with really low IQ to understand.
Better yet... go buy a shuttle off the market and then sell it back.
If you still havn't figured it out yet.... I'm sure WOW would love an another subscription.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
=============== |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 03:54:00 -
[7]
Quote:
1. Any trader that sells materials to a member of a warring party has, themself, given Aid and Comfort and are immediately flagged as a participant in the hostilities.
haha wtf?
Quote:
2. In order to make it possible for traders to not become unwillingly involved, CCP should add a selectable option to sell orders, denying a sale to any party currently under a declaration of war.
So suddenly there's a huge number of traders who dont know about this option.. they undock to jita and 100 wartargets lock his freighter.
Oh good idea... great way to drive people away from the game.
Or... lets say they switch over all trades and all trades automatically are set this way.
The people like privateers who are at war constantly... literally cant buy products.
Oh good idea... great way to drive people away from the game.
Not only that... I'm a real pain in the iondrive. I make my alt create a corp for 1.5 mil. Then for 100mil per year... I can basically grief 1 corp in making it impossible for them to buy anything on the market?
AWESOME. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 06:18:00 -
[8]
Trade in Eve is anonymous. Even contracts, while they may have a name on them, are still effectively anonymous, because nobody actually looks at the name or cares if they do. Your proposal to criminalize trade would utterly ruin the entire Eve market - you'd have traders getting shot for no reason, warriors who can't buy anything, and even if you did want to open yourself up to doing it, you'll probably get hit with wardecs from major alliances even if you're willing to supply a 10-man. This is a horribly stupid idea. The rest of it's decent, although hardly novel, but your supplier rules are crazy.
-----------
Herschel's Cruiser BPC Store |
Captain Thunk
Vale Tudo.
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 07:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Captain Thunk on 27/01/2009 07:19:02
As a Privateer I'm obliged to support this idea. However, it's uttely insane and even I'm feeling sorry for all the marketeers who'd fall foul of this.
Captain Thunk |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 09:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:51:38
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:50:00
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 26/01/2009 21:05:27
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Ah, but ship maker Joe would have the option to not sell to you.
If he did chose to sell to you, he would then, of course, face the consequences of his actions.
I suppose that such a system could actually give Empire wars some extra strategic possibilities.
Locking down a corps means of supply and actually strangling them into submission would be a very real scenario.
Re-read my post very slowly.... it might be hard for people with really low IQ to understand.
Better yet... go buy a shuttle off the market and then sell it back.
If you still havn't figured it out yet.... I'm sure WOW would love an another subscription.
Ummm, let's see...
******...check
gbtWOW...check
You're gay, right?
(Illiterate *******)... |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 09:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
1. Any trader that sells materials to a member of a warring party has, themself, given Aid and Comfort and are immediately flagged as a participant in the hostilities.
haha wtf?
Quote:
2. In order to make it possible for traders to not become unwillingly involved, CCP should add a selectable option to sell orders, denying a sale to any party currently under a declaration of war.
So suddenly there's a huge number of traders who dont know about this option.. they undock to jita and 100 wartargets lock his freighter.
Oh good idea... great way to drive people away from the game.
Or... lets say they switch over all trades and all trades automatically are set this way.
The people like privateers who are at war constantly... literally cant buy products.
Oh good idea... great way to drive people away from the game.
Not only that... I'm a real pain in the iondrive. I make my alt create a corp for 1.5 mil. Then for 100mil per year... I can basically grief 1 corp in making it impossible for them to buy anything on the market?
AWESOME.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, in such a harsh universe, especially...
Corps should probably concern themselves with proper infrastructures that can withstand war-decs.
I suppose that there needs to be consideration of your alt corp exploit, any ideas?
I'll think about it. |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 09:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Captain Thunk
Edited by: Captain Thunk on 27/01/2009 07:19:02
As a Privateer I'm obliged to support this idea. However, it's uttely insane and even I'm feeling sorry for all the marketeers who'd fall foul of this.
Captain Thunk
Thank you, for your support.  |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 09:30:00 -
[13]
First part is excellent.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Your proposal to criminalize trade would utterly ruin the entire Eve market - you'd have traders getting shot for no reason, warriors who can't buy anything, and even if you did want to open yourself up to doing it, you'll probably get hit with wardecs from major alliances even if you're willing to supply a 10-man.
This. Everyone would have to reactivate their old hauler alts from the privateers days. Trading with someone at war shouldn't be the same as declaring war on them, which is what you are proposing. Punishment does not fit the crime. |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 09:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
First part is excellent.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Your proposal to criminalize trade would utterly ruin the entire Eve market - you'd have traders getting shot for no reason, warriors who can't buy anything, and even if you did want to open yourself up to doing it, you'll probably get hit with wardecs from major alliances even if you're willing to supply a 10-man.
This. Everyone would have to reactivate their old hauler alts from the privateers days. Trading with someone at war shouldn't be the same as declaring war on them, which is what you are proposing. Punishment does not fit the crime.
You know, I have thought about this and do see a substantial upside for traders willing to be "war-profiteers".
Traders that willingly sell to war-decced individuals should be able to get a premium for their products, because many risk averse traders would decline to put themselves in harms way.
I could even imagine that some traders will load up a huge supply of commonly needed materials and set-up shop in a convenient system to the party they are supporting.
Maybe an entirely new, and highly profitable profession, risky as it may, in fact, be. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 10:01:00 -
[15]
Two possibilities:
1. Those who are wardecced just use an alt to buy stuff
2. Traders only use accounts which never undock to sell stuff to wardecced people.
It doesnt make sense and it doesnt work.
About the first part: I am against any changes in wardeccing mechanism which does help the wardeccer, but doesnt solve the other problem, that wardeccing is just pay to grief and getting riskfree pvp. Wars should be started for a reason other than getting easy targets.
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
|
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 10:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Two possibilities:
1. Those who are wardecced just use an alt to buy stuff
2. Traders only use accounts which never undock to sell stuff to wardecced people.
It doesnt make sense and it doesnt work.
About the first part: I am against any changes in wardeccing mechanism which does help the wardeccer, but doesnt solve the other problem, that wardeccing is just pay to grief and getting riskfree pvp. Wars should be started for a reason other than getting easy targets.
Using an alt would make that alt a war target. Using a trial account alt would give you the additional issue of not being able to use contracts and therefore not being able to give the goods purchased by the trial account to it's main.
I suppose you could blow-up your trial accounts ship and loot the goods that survive.
Your choice, I suppose.
As to the traders, once they were war-decced, anyone that dealt with them would, themselves, become flagged.
You can imagine the rest. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 15:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:51:38
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/01/2009 23:50:00
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 26/01/2009 21:05:27
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Ah, but ship maker Joe would have the option to not sell to you.
If he did chose to sell to you, he would then, of course, face the consequences of his actions.
I suppose that such a system could actually give Empire wars some extra strategic possibilities.
Locking down a corps means of supply and actually strangling them into submission would be a very real scenario.
Re-read my post very slowly.... it might be hard for people with really low IQ to understand.
Better yet... go buy a shuttle off the market and then sell it back.
If you still havn't figured it out yet.... I'm sure WOW would love an another subscription.
Ummm, let's see...
******...check
gbtWOW...check
You're gay, right?
(Illiterate *******)...
Take pity on the fool gentlemen... particularly the ones who don't know how to read.
This will never get support.... and your last response is proof of that. |
Shirley Serious
Amarr
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 16:14:00 -
[18]
Question: In-station direct trade, and contracts.
What happens? |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 16:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Take pity on the fool gentlemen... particularly the ones who don't know how to read.
This will never get support.... and your last response is proof of that.
I really don't have the slightest clue what you are trying to say, or what your post is supposed to mean, considering the fact that I specifically gave the traders an out, in my proposal.
Did you miss it?
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
|
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 16:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Question: In-station direct trade, and contracts.
What happens?
Flagged, I would hope. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 18:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 27/01/2009 19:03:13
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Take pity on the fool gentlemen... particularly the ones who don't know how to read.
This will never get support.... and your last response is proof of that.
I really don't have the slightest clue what you are trying to say, or what your post is supposed to mean, considering the fact that I specifically gave the traders an out, in my proposal.
Did you miss it?
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Oh yeah... clicking a stupid little button that says don't sell to war decced corps.
Tell me oh holier than thou just how many corps are currently war-decced right now?
Yes.. lets war-dec everyone to stop traders from selling ships and supplies.
Real Smart... smart like a damn brick. |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 19:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 27/01/2009 19:03:13
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Take pity on the fool gentlemen... particularly the ones who don't know how to read.
This will never get support.... and your last response is proof of that.
I really don't have the slightest clue what you are trying to say, or what your post is supposed to mean, considering the fact that I specifically gave the traders an out, in my proposal.
Did you miss it?
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You where doing fine until you got to the suppliers bit.
Not supported.
I get war dec'ed.... and then I lose my ship.. I go buy a ship from shipmaker joe... he gets flagged and then loses his freighter of billions of ISK.
Does that make sense to you?
Stupid idea... really stupid idea.
Oh yeah... clicking a stupid little button that says don't sell to war decced corps.
Tell me oh holier than thou just how many corps are currently war-decced right now?
Yes.. lets war-dec everyone to stop traders from selling ships and supplies.
Real Smart... smart like a damn brick.
Get beat up today at school..........again?
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 21:29:00 -
[23]
You still havn't answered my question.
How many war-dec's are currently active in EVE on a weekly basis?
Start using your head before you start flapping your gums.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
=============== |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 22:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
You still havn't answered my question.
How many war-dec's are currently active in EVE on a weekly basis?
Start using your head before you start flapping your gums.
Many, I would imagine.
How many of those wars are actually won, in any meaningful way?
|
Xiao LoPan
|
Posted - 2009.01.27 23:13:00 -
[25]
0 and 223 so far,
this would be a horrible mechanic, it wouldn't help strangle your opponent it would allow them to get a multitude of free allies, get war deced hop in a shuttle and start buying a few pieces of ammo here and there all of a sudden your enemy has a couple of dozen corps gunning for them.
|
FunzzeR
Counter Errorist Unit
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 05:15:00 -
[26]
Horrible mechanic... The above posters express most of the reasons why.
|
Th0rG0d
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 05:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Using an alt would make that alt a war target. Using a trial account alt would give you the additional issue of not being able to use contracts and therefore not being able to give the goods purchased by the trial account to it's main.
I suppose you could blow-up your trial accounts ship and loot the goods that survive.
Your choice, I suppose.
As to the traders, once they were war-decced, anyone that dealt with them would, themselves, become flagged.
You can imagine the rest.[/quote
I can't help but post...... Last I checked, all accounts can drop a free can in space, and anyone can take it. By stealing from someone else, would that person get flagged a war target too? What happens when you send isk to said alt? Automatic flagging? I would give everyone I meet 1 isk, just to make their day!
There are work-arounds for everything, you should know that by now. Think before you speak. Best advice I can give.....
|
FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 07:15:00 -
[28]
1. Wardec your trader alt
2. Place him in Jita 4-4
3. Camp undock
4. Profit!
_____________
I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 09:09:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Karii Ildarian on 28/01/2009 09:10:01
Originally by: Xiao LoPan
0 and 223 so far,
this would be a horrible mechanic, it wouldn't help strangle your opponent it would allow them to get a multitude of free allies, get war deced hop in a shuttle and start buying a few pieces of ammo here and there all of a sudden your enemy has a couple of dozen corps gunning for them.
LOL
Could be. 
I actually think that, if this mechanic was imposed, you would be amazed by the vast majority of traders clicking the little check-box, in their wallet settings that says, "All sales to individuals, currently under a Declaration of War are strictly prohibited, by the seller".
Especially after a couple, inadvertent lapses... 
Oh and 0 of 223 simply means that there are a lot of pussies playing this game. 
|
Karii Ildarian
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.01.28 09:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: T***G0d
Originally by: Karii Ildarian
Using an alt would make that alt a war target. Using a trial account alt would give you the additional issue of not being able to use contracts and therefore not being able to give the goods purchased by the trial account to it's main.
I suppose you could blow-up your trial accounts ship and loot the goods that survive.
Your choice, I suppose.
As to the traders, once they were war-decced, anyone that dealt with them would, themselves, become flagged.
You can imagine the rest.[/quote
I can't help but post...... Last I checked, all accounts can drop a free can in space, and anyone can take it. By stealing from someone else, would that person get flagged a war target too? What happens when you send isk to said alt? Automatic flagging? I would give everyone I meet 1 isk, just to make their day!
There are work-arounds for everything, you should know that by now. Think before you speak. Best advice I can give.....
I don't recall mentioning stealing or giving away ISK as being flag-able actions.
In fact, I already said that you could, in theory, get an alt in a freighter to do your shopping and then pop your alt and loot their stuff, or simply have the alt jettison the stuff, into space and you could, I suppose, steal from his can...
That is completely up to you, just be weary of the those that may wait to take advantage of such situations.
So your advise, keep it... |
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