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Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:43:00 - [1] They will most certainly move this, but I started to read about the new exploration in this thread ccp post and it occurred to me that this is just more of the same. If this is some, which it looks like, not yet fully developed new 0.0 territories then what is the point for the average pilot. Do you want to join a corps to protect you and guide you so you can explore the new graphics while they use your labor for their own gain. What about me using my labor for my gain. I suggested some balancing agent so that this wouldn't be a teritorial gankfest or newb dying grounds. If anyone feels as I do, I wish they would let their comments be known. This post will be self destructed by the moderators in ............seconds. Have a nice day, sell you soul to the company store.
Typecell	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:15:00 - [2] You're welcome to try on your own, but you will surely be beaten out by larger groups than you. The point of corporations/alliances is to do things that you normally wouldn't be able to do alone by pooling your collective resources together. This often comes with a price in the form of some kind of tax. At this point you decide how much you can make alone and how much you can make under the protection of a corporation. If it exceeds the amount you can make alone, you are still the winner even though you are paying a portion of your earnings to the corp...
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:03:00 - [3] This was my exact point. It is biased, will remain biased againt the independent player. As such it present no lure and I might add that nul sec as an experiment doesn't seem to work as there have been "compromises" involving "the gods of Thor." If an experiment doesn't work at first, why expand the failure?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:04:00 - [4] EVE is not a solo game. Groups are supposed to have an advantage.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Li SanCei I might add that nul sec as an experiment doesn't seem to work Eh? How hasn't it worked? As an experiment for what? Quote: If an experiment doesn't work at first, why expand the failure? Because maybe it has worked?
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Li SanCei Wut? I'm sorry mate, but wtf are you going on about? What part of multiplayer do you not get? I am very much the solo player myself, but I will happily admit that it is NOT the best choice to "get ahead" in this game. Sure CCP puts in new content that favors teamwork. That's the f-ing point! And yes, somebody else will profit for the workerbee's labor. If the workerbee doesn't like it, then maybe they should start their own corp. Welcome to capitalism. There are plenty of better things to whine about than whether or not your life as a solo player is lucrative and easy enough.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:31:00 - [7] As far as nul sec working perhaps you didn't read the intention........the exploits last longer in nul sec? Why is that? As far as teamwork.........if there is not imbalance in the game...where are the hi sec corps that foray into nul sec to wrest control of some nul sec systems. Why did the "player experiment" of a truly neutral set of stations, not outposts, fail due to a "just after downtime patch" magic of their stations being overturned? Am I to believe that this was just coincidence? No, I agree that there are better things to do than whine about the fact that it takes "teamwork" to make it in EVE, but like in 1984 it seems some "teamwork" is more equal than others.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:44:00 - [8] This new exploration system was designed specifically to give the smaller groups a chance since wormholes are limited by mass, prevent cynos, and can't have sovereignty claimed. It's like the homestead act - you can go out and try to claim some land for yourself, but once you're out there - resupplying is going to be very tedious.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Li SanCei Conspiracy! Yes, the entire world is against you little Persecution Princess. It's all a giant plot...
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:43:00 - [10] I withdraw the thread. Everyone is obviously happy with the current state of affairs; and yes I have my beauty to attend to. Happy serfing everyone.
3AKOHHO	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Li SanCei Everyone is obviously happy with the current state of affairs I'm a loner and would like to remain that way. Don't want to command nor want to be commanded. I'll gladly unite with someone for a mission or expedition, but to be one of a thousand, that's bares a question "why set up individual identity in a first place?"
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:28:00 - [12] Originally by: "Li SanCei" my labor for my gain. "I am Li SanCei, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...EVE, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, EVE can become your MMO, as well."
Asteroid Bandit NOPHEX PRISIM	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:08:00 - [13] So after complaining ad nauseam in the other forum and being told that your complaints are completely unfounded and assumptions often simply wrong you have come here to play victim and complain some more? Can you spot the trend above.
Gerard Deneth Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Eran Laude Originally by: "Li SanCei" my labor for my gain. ...stuff... "I am Li SanCei, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the Sanmatar in Pator, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the Emperor in Amarr, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the President in Luminiare, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...EVE, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, EVE can become your MMO, as well." Just a little fix for you there... guess that means you have to be Caldari to be a Randist.... :D
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.01.29 02:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Li SanCei No, I agree that there are better things to do than whine about the fact that it takes "teamwork" to make it in EVE, but like in 1984 it seems some "teamwork" is more equal than others. Right author. Wrong novel. Animal Farm. Quite easy to remember, given that the full quote is "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:42:00 - [16] Li, you know you could just suck in that gut and stop whining? I think that's an acceptable solution to your nonproblem.
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Li SanCei I withdraw the thread. Everyone is obviously happy with the current state of affairs; and yes I have my beauty to attend to. Happy serfing everyone. I play as a lone wolf, no regrets. There are ways to insinuate yourself into areas thought to be primarily alliance/oorporate/gang owned. There are challenges and limitations to solo play, but one must be patient, clever, and have the will to succeed against all of this. Crafting your next move is much more soothing than dwelling in whinetown.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Eran Laude Originally by: "Li SanCei" my labor for my gain. "I am Li SanCei, and I'm here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? 'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.' 'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.' 'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.' I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...EVE, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, EVE can become your MMO, as well." My whole point is CCP is adding content that is biased again the "little guy." If it was balanced, I wouldn't complain. They have done this before and consistently. Read in the blog that they were thinking of having a Concord presence and decided against it. From CCP Prism: "They're all treated as nullsec. Even the ones you enter from empire. There was a big discussion on this during the initial sprint but the team was quite adamant on the whole 'exploration' feeling vanishing if CONCORD was going to enforce any of it's rules out there. On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are." Note "the team", thats CCP. You don't have to have Concord, that is a red herring. There are other ways to achieve the same thing. I am sure anyone else reading could supply ideas and a fast backstory to achieve, say, weapopns malfunctions, npc abandoned but neutral stations, etc., etc., etc.
Makko Gray Gallente Nexus Aerospace Corporation Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Li SanCei My whole point is CCP is adding content that is biased again the "little guy." I disagree completely. If anything I think it actually offers more to the little guys and the smaller groups with wormholes having mass restrictions. Sure the fact that all wormhole space is null sec doesn't favour the high sec empire hugger but thats something different entirely. If you want the rewards you're going to have to take on the risk.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Makko Gray Originally by: Li SanCei My whole point is CCP is adding content that is biased again the "little guy." I disagree completely. If anything I think it actually offers more to the little guys and the smaller groups with wormholes having mass restrictions. Sure the fact that all wormhole space is null sec doesn't favour the high sec empire hugger but thats something different entirely. If you want the rewards you're going to have to take on the risk. I agree completely - mass limitations and inability to cyno or claim sov make it VERY interesting for the little guy.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:51:00 - [21] One last thought: Everyone knows that this is going to be a goldmine and I believe that the tilt that I see towards large 0.0 corporations it th replace the t2 blueprints exculsivity which was damaged a bit with invention. Personally I was there when wrecks were first introduced and I remember running those Gallente missions to get the trit bars which had a bunch of buy orders @ 1.5 mill each. This is what I mean by stuff for the little guy. That first week I made a lot of isk with just a few trips to Jita to sell the stuff. If this new exploration was like that then I'd be all for it as it is.
Typecell	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:46:00 - [22] Think of it like this: You want to build a car from scratch. Sure, you can mine the metals, melt them down into the pieces that you want for your car, collect your own textiles to build the seats, put together the engine, and do every single nitty gritty piece of constructing it. It's going to be a long, tedious process and the overall quality will likely be extremely low because you've decided to do it all yourself with limited skills. When you go on to sell that car you will have troubles because the quality is low, and it will have taken you terribly long to build it. The alternative is, you can join a company that pulls it's collective resources together to quickly and efficiently build cars using a supply chain and assembly line. Each person that works on the car is designated specific tasks instead of each individual person building their own car. This way, every person contributes with what they can do in order to build a better product. The average profit per hour per person will be larger than if you just decided to do it all yourself. It is much more efficient. What you are asking for in this scenario is for you, using a "jack of all trades" approach to be as successful as a group of people that have decided to work together. You are in charge of the security, logistics, mining and recon work of your operation. They are subdivided into a well oiled machine with cooperation and communication between those roles. Rebalancing using your logic simply doesn't work, because if you alone could do the work of ten people then 10 people could do the work of one hundred people. Nobody is forcing you to join a corp, but they have more manpower and resources at their disposal, and will outperform you.
Shade Millith International House of PWNCakes B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Typecell *Awesomness* Doesn't get put much clearer or better stated than this Basicly, if an alliance can put 50 man hours to your 1, which would be more successful?
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2009.01.30 07:51:00 - [24] What I find failarious in much of the opinions concerning the new expansion is- It Ain't Out Yet! Christ, give it a chance. I personally think it's going to accomodate all styles of play. What's not to like about 2500 new star sytems? A huge boost to Exploration? A change in that crappy scanner and a different probe mechanic? New stuff! The unkown- I mean many of us in this thread are explorers- seems like our prayers have been answered. Plus- you get to do the old exploration style if you want- sans old probe and scanner of course.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.30 17:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher What I find failarious in much of the opinions concerning the new expansion is- It Ain't Out Yet!... What's not to like about 2500 new star sytems?... True, but when it is out then there will be little than can be changed. To be excited about something should not blind one to reality; it should exhance one's perception of it. From the current thread : link bit down the page -- "First you have to find a W-system that contains a valuable moon. You bring in a pos, fuel and ships of different sizes...." Really sounds like people are thinking about solo or small corps here, doesn't it?
Terminus Vindictus	Posted - 2009.01.30 18:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Li SanCei What about me using my labor for my gain. What's wrong with corps (small or large) who control territory using THEIR labor for THEIR gain by either providing you protection for a price, or by hunting you down to get your goodies? Or are you the only one in the entire game entitled to the fruits of your labor without interference by others? Seems a bit hypocritical to ask to keep the fruits of your labor while preventing others from theirs... Regardless, there are PLENTY of opportunities for an independent pilot to profit greatly from the game, and to explore all that EVE has to offer. You just need to be more creative when you step into the realm of player-controlled territories. So yes, I'm personally happy with how things are right now.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.31 06:13:00 - [27] All of this is from the Bridge to the Stars discussion linked above. P 13 CCP Whisper: ôOriginally by: Rex Lashar If, as you say ships as big as motherships can go through you're talking about a dozen bs or a hundred hac/recon pilots. So even without 2-way travel, a decently sized corp / alliance fleet can roll through together. That in my opinion is another mistake.ö (answer) .... While I think the idea of having a wormhole that can let a mothership through is definitely cool, I do not think that these sorts of wormholes should be as common as sand on the beach. ... ... Even with the peek-a-boo-and-close tactic you mentioned, that's a lot of work to do in the hopes of getting a better connection to spawn. Sure, a big alliance can do it, ...I take my hat off to anyone who is willing to coordinate that amount of work through a tangle of shifting connections, gambling the potential rewards versus the amount of manhours going in. (comment)Is ôI take my hat offö a nod to ôI hope this happens?ö p 14 CCP Whisper: You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. (answer) Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. (comment)It would also allow nul sec to border hi sec space. Think the ganking is bad in Jita now, wait unitl ôwormholes.ö A pirates wet dream. P 24 CCP Greyscale ôOriginally by: Kile Kitmoore Any thoughts about giving corps. the ability to build some sort of gate/wormhole amplifier? Providing either a permanent (until someone blows it up or corp. does not maintain it) or expands the time/mass allowed for the wormhole to remain open.ö (answer) not for Apocrypha, but this is something that we've discussed and are... intrigued by (comment) note we've discussed (in the pipeline) and are intrigued (like a lot) by. And you wormhole into a system with more than just npcs? P 24 CCP Greyscale ôI'm a pirate with a covops alt. While waiting for targets, I have a set of exploration probes out on my alt, giving me free profit as well as scanning down any targets that happen to show up. From your description, it sounds like this is going to change... will I no longer be able to scan for both deadspace sites (and wormholes?) and ships at the same time?ö (answer) Not only can you scan for both with the "big" launcher, it'll be easier in certain important aspects. More details when we do a blog on probing specifically. (comment) Pirates 2, Me 0 P 24 CCP Greyscale ô Originally by: croxis Will this, someday, allow player built stargates to be made?ö (answer) Maybe. (comment) Look for it in the future. P 24 CCP Greyscale ô if its possible to take an orca through a wormhole to this new space but a BS was restricted (mass/class etc) is/will there be a system in place to stop the orca taking a packaged BS (50km) inside its cargo bay, passing through the wormhole, then jettisoning the ships directly into space. IIRC ships jettisoned from cargo auto assemble in space. ergo completely bypassing ship size restrictionö (answer) This is recommended behavior - if you can use maintenance bays to maximize the capacity of wormholes, you should definitely do so! (comment) What happened to that ômass restrictionö that was supposed to govern behavior thru the gates? How many BS fit in an orca? Also note ôrecommended behavior.ö Please note that in all of the above there is no mention of what a solo person or small corps can do that would be profitable on a long term basis. And read the mind set of the devs, the concern is with the expansion and territoriality of this new space, the idea of exploration is almost a by product. I am not saying that they did this intentionally but that I fear this will be the result as there are no protections against this. My last point is that at present any 0.0 can pod travel anywhere and investigate (spy, check for exploits, etc ) anywhere in hi & lo sec Empire space. We cannot do the same to 0.0 space (spy, check for exploits, etc) as the mechanics say we can easily be pod killed. Did this have a bearing on certain practices as in that ad that states ôWhat happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas?ö Is this ôexplorationö just another ôLas Vegasö in disguise, by design or in effect. I ask where are the mechanics to prevent this?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.31 09:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Li SanCei Please note that in all of the above there is no mention of what a solo person or small corps can do that would be profitable on a long term basis. Why would there be? The mechanisms for making money don't change just because you get a new stretch of space. If you didn't know how to do it before, you won't be able to do it now either; if you did know how to before, you will still be able to do it. Quote: And read the mind set of the devs, the concern is with the expansion and territoriality of this new space, the idea of exploration is almost a by product. I am not saying that they did this intentionally but that I fear this will be the result as there are no protections against this So? Why is that a problem and why does it need "protecting" against? Quote: My last point is that at present any 0.0 can pod travel anywhere and investigate (spy, check for exploits, etc ) anywhere in hi & lo sec Empire space. We cannot do the same to 0.0 space (spy, check for exploits, etc) as the mechanics say we can easily be pod killed. No. It's the same for both parties: if you want to investigate high- and lowsec, you'll have just as easy a time as the 0.0-dweller. If he wants to investigate nullsec, he'll have just as hard a time as empire-dwellers, because any worth-while investigation means travelling to where he isn't welcome — same as for your forays into nullsec.
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2009.01.31 11:43:00 - [29] I would relax and wait untill the expansion is out. There is a lot of wild "what if's" conversations going in that thread. Mostly about how POS's can be set up and maintained. I can understand why some players are worried that it will become locked down by large Corps and alliances, because that is what those factions want to do. Hell, most people would like a little ho,estead system to call thier own. So here is just a couple of reasons why I don't think this will happen: 2500 systems with constantly shifting entrances and exits. And constantly shifting entrances and exits with constantly shifting entry and exit requirements x2. Mass and time. No bookmarks to lead you back. No system names. No map to show where you are in the 2500 system region. No cynos in, out or within. So, with the above factors being in place- You might be able to set up shop in a system, but how are you going to get back there should you get podded, or run a hauler out to bring goods to market? What happens when you run out of ammo or POS fuel. There won't be any stations to seel you goods, they will have to be hauled out by someone. Anyway- you can see where I am going. I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist. I really think that CCP has made some excellent balancing mechanics where this expansion is concerned. I don't bother reading many of the player posts, just the Dev responses because that is where the facts are. The glint from tinfoil hats is almost blinding in that thread.
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.01.31 14:54:00 - [30] Seems like there's a pretty big opportunity for griefing to me. 1. Pirate scans wormhole. 2. Goes through wormhole. 3. Directional Scan for players. 4. If you find a player, close the wormhole. 5. Kill the player. 6. Ransom the pod (because you closed the wormhole they can't get back on their own.) I hope that it's harder than it sounds, especially with the npc rats webifying and warp inhibiting.

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