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The Red Pill; or, How deep does the rabbit hole go?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:40:00 - [1] I think that the upcoming expansion is going to have a more profound effect on how we play the game we call Eve Online than anything that has come before it. CCP has a fresh canvas, they can do anything they wish; do they stay with the tried and true convention of the existing game play or do they do something wildly divergent and risky? Whichever it is, CCP had better get a move on. Less than six weeks to go until the M10 release date (no guarantee that the expansion will be done by then, just the retail box release) and nothing so far on SISI. I think that this time around SISI will be absolutely swamped with players trying to test out all the new goodies and gain an advantage over everyone else. Mistakes on SISI will be free, and players will be able and willing to venture as deep into w-space systems as possible to experience as much as they can before the release goes to TQ. On SISI players will be able to quickly refine the best practices for invading w-space: the best low footprint long duration ship combinations, the best combination of POS towers, fuel and industrials to maximize duration while minimizing transit tonnage through wormholes. Getting hard data on how wormholes perform and what rats and resources exist in the new space will be critical to success in the early days and weeks following the expansion. I hope CCP is prepared for SISI populations to be a steady 1000+ players up until and continuing on past the release date. Greedy carebears will be coming out of the woodwork to experiment risk-free with w-space and all of it's mysteries. None of the big 0.0 power blocks can afford to ignore w-space, because if some new concept is discovered that allows a significant advantage over another group is discovered it might very well tip the balance of power in 0.0 forever. What if the best w-space systems are the equivalent of one hundred of the best T2 BPOs when there was no such thing as invention? If CCP errs too much on the side of caution we'll have another mess like the drone regions: carbon copy of existing 0.0 space with alliance power blocks dominating the area with POSes and so on. If they err too far in the opposite direction we could have an alienated player base as some of them exploit the new game design and see massive personal gain while the rest suffer as a result. So my question to the rest of you is- where do you see yourself fitting into the new game? Are you going to be the first into w-space? Are you going to stick with your L4 missions? Are you going to ignore it completely and continue with your 0.0 wars? Will you wait and see how many people have to self destruct their pods to get back to k-space? I for one am looking forward to hopping in a clean clone and seeing just how many new systems I can explore in my CovOps before I get stuck or killed. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:47:00 - [2] TD;LR version missing - cannot compute. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I for one am looking forward to hopping in a clean clone and seeing just how many new systems I can explore in my CovOps before I get stuck or killed. tl;dr version. That will be 10m isk. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/01/2009 06:50:21 Originally by: Kuolematon TD;LR version missing - cannot compute. Hell, you need a TD;LR for a toilet roll He's saying that CCP needs to be careful that this doesn't turn into a new "drone regions" fiasco and asking "what are your plans for M10? Are you gonna run to wormspace, etc." My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Bellum Eternus I for one am looking forward to hopping in a clean clone and seeing just how many new systems I can explore in my CovOps before I get stuck or killed. tl;dr version. That will be 10m isk. What? He made topic about upcoming patch where he can explore new systems? Oh dear -- nubcakes today "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:52:00 - [6] From everything I've read thus far (including 30+ pages of the thread on the EvE Information Portal), it seems there will be 3 main types of people out in W-Space. 1) Big alliance types. These guys will try to put up big, permanent installations in the best systems to harvest their resources. CCP is doing their absolute best to make sure logistics is.... challenging. How challenging remains to be seen and will determine whether most W systems will eventually end up like this or if it will be limited to a few profitable but hugely-difficult to maintain systems. 2) Little corp types. These people will load up a small POS, some ships, and some supplies into an Orca and will rove W-space for a couple of weeks until they find a connection back to some suitable space they can get home from. This is the approach I plan on taking eventually, though it will likely just be me and my alt, at least at first. This is likely the method most serious pirates will take, as a mobile base is practically required if you plan on staying in W space for longer than it takes to fill your hold up, or long enough that the wormhole back collapses. 3) Individuals, who will find wormhole entrances, go through, and do whatever there is to do in W space until they're full up on loot and go back the way they came.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:37:00 - [7] the idea of a mobil base will become more imporatant. I can see the orcas being the most useful of these. 4.) those that become full time wspace residents simply popping out into empire when links align organising refuelling. As long as u have 2 scanner alts and a few combat pilots at short notice being able to pop a few peeps out, now for the downside anyone gets caught out in empire space due to wspace collapsing .... ok what then well those on the inside wil simply wait until another opening opens up if its empire or low sec said individuals will make their way to point and reenter wspace from the outside, its reverse to useing kspace as a base of operations. Presents a challange a lot of palyers might be up for
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:49:00 - [8] Couple of issues that will drastically affect the way wormholes are played: Firstly the entrances can only hold a certain amount of ships before they collapse and respawn elsewhere - so you'll need to scan out a new wormhole exit for the new systems. Did you see the Dev Blog on how many systems are going to be added? They are going to increase the total Number of Systems by 25%!! Holly Heck Batman!! Thats a lot of random systems that will be "Shifting around"! Next: the gates will open in one system (say Goon space) and once the number of ships pass through it wqill close and reopen somewhere random (say BOB space). WOW, now THATS going to increase the amount of PvP! Persomnally, I think it will be a while before a lot of T3 comes through...
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:02:00 - [9] Well you could I suppose stay almost indefinitely in a cov ops though it might get kinda boring. To explore other areas you'd need to find more wormholes, so the number of systems would be limited by probes carried. How feasible it will be to set up POSs for mining/base purposes will depend on the specific limits. They probably will set a limit that is sub cap, so I'm figuring an Orca or Freighter will not make it through or if so very rarely. Logistics has been the largest complaint of the game for a long time. It is simply not fun to fuel POSs. Making it even harder I see only a few taking the opportunity to put up POSs etc in the new areas. Consider though that you don't have to worry about Cap ship attacks on your POS (not unless the cap ships are built in system). Thus for the most part it would be difficult to take out a POS in W-Space. Smalls would be vulnerable to roaming fleets, but larger ones could be very hard to assail depending on tonnage allowed through the wormholes. Unless there are ice fields in the system though it would be hard to fuel them. I hope the devs have included at least 1 ice belt in each system. That would still necessitate you taking trade goods there. It would be very hard to keep one fueled without an ice field in system and only sporadic wormholes. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:25:00 - [10] the way to run a pos out of wspace would be a scan probe alt and another alt with hauler. u would have a 1 in 2 chance of a w-hole popping out into low sec or empire. If its a quite system u just then quitely organise corp mates to bring supplies in. the way id like to see it work is no large poses or at least restrictions on guns available to be deployed. um medium or small poses - if poses run out of fuel and reinforced they should be scoopable by anyone else that comes along as long as they have fuel can claim them in wspace but accessing kspace from wspace presents an easier logistical challange then trying to locate from kspace. So a permanent corp or alt presense would be needed. i think a small 100 man alliance or corp could maintain 1-3 systems and use the random wormhole to empire or low sec it would mean some moving around in kspace or use of jump clones but if ccps new idea for pos pellets is implemented u would just need the pellets build em from the various ice and npc materials in empire and transport where needed would make it easier that way see development forum for that discussion

bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:30:00 - [11] There stuff out there in space what people shouldn't see. You are risking more than your ship and your pod.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:47:00 - [12] CCP has stated only highsec wormholes will be restricted to subcap size, and even then the amount you can squeeze through at once and the amount you can squeeze through overall can be different. Dominix - 97MKg Orca - 250MKg Rorqual - 1,180MKg Thanatos - 1,057MKg An Orca only has the mass of about two and a half BS, and as it's been implied on the big thread in the Info Portal that only the mass of the ship itself counts against the wormhole entrance, it seems like they will be the 'best', in terms of cost-effectiveness, platforms for a small roving gang since it seems most wormholes will admit them and they can carry a small moon mining POS (with guns), a month's worth of fuel, and 3 HACs + smaller support vessels, and still have room left over for loot, as well as the ship itself being able to stand in for a ship. maint. array at your POS. I can see where the risk comes in at though - the tentative Orca loadout I just finished coming up with clocks in at about a billion and a half ISK, if you count the ships it carries, though it should come back with many times that much if it completes a full 3 week mission and ship losses aren't too bad.
Freyya GeoCorp. Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:56:00 - [13] Edited by: Freyya on 29/01/2009 09:02:43 Well i think there's something people are missing or are overspeculating on stuff that needs to be confirmed 1st; There will be aprox or exactly 2500 new systems. Wormholes will be completely random and the only thing they'll probably display once you find them is the max timer before it collapses and the max mass they can carry before collapsing. There will be no system names etc. so even if you do get a pos up and running there's a slim chance you'll find a window that leads to your exact pos system in time. Even if you do find a W-space (I like the name btw ^^, can't figure out what K-space should stand for though..[N]ormal space or [R]egular space would seem more logical) next to your pos system there's absolutely NO garuantee that if you find a wormhole, it will lead you next door to your pos. Remember; there are no gates, jumpbridges and cynos don't work and every wormhole probably is a completely random phenomenon. Now this is just another guess but it seems more logical than being able to find a wormhole to your pos so easily as people portray it. [EDIT:] Hmm i personally forgot the option that a wormhole will stay open long enough from W-space to Empire/0.0 so that a single hauler can go through and come back with fuel etc. That might be the only feasable way you're going to be able to supply posses and maintain a presence. I'm going to have to guess that once you do get a pos up and running there will be some means of supporting said pos inside W-space although i imagine it will be alot harder than regular pos operations. We'll just have to await the devblogs/SISI. (START POASTING DEVBLOGS DEVS )
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Freyya Edited by: Freyya on 29/01/2009 09:02:43 Well i think there's something people are missing or are overspeculating on stuff that needs to be confirmed 1st; There will be aprox or exactly 2500 new systems. Wormholes will be completely random and the only thing they'll probably display once you find them is the max timer before it collapses and the max mass they can carry before collapsing. There will be no system names etc. so even if you do get a pos up and running there's a slim chance you'll find a window that leads to your exact pos system in time. Even if you do find a W-space (I like the name btw ^^, can't figure out what K-space should stand for though..[N]ormal space or [R]egular space would seem more logical) next to your pos system there's absolutely NO garuantee that if you find a wormhole, it will lead you next door to your pos. Remember; there are no gates, jumpbridges and cynos don't work and every wormhole probably is a completely random phenomenon. Now this is just another guess but it seems more logical than being able to find a wormhole to your pos so easily as people portray it. [EDIT:] Hmm i personally forgot the option that a wormhole will stay open long enough from W-space to Empire/0.0 so that a single hauler can go through and come back with fuel etc. That might be the only feasable way you're going to be able to supply posses and maintain a presence. I'm going to have to guess that once you do get a pos up and running there will be some means of supporting said pos inside W-space although i imagine it will be alot harder than regular pos operations. We'll just have to await the devblogs/SISI. (START POASTING DEVBLOGS DEVS ) actually my way of thinking is a mid sized corp will maintain at least scanning alt or cov ops ship which at least 3 people can use - a hauler and a combat ship and a pos with corp , ship and perhaps refining array restrictions id like to see is max medium pos with restrictions on the amount of total guns u can put up. Now if we are talking w-k space and an active wormhole in every w system at once so lets say 1 in 2 holes are to k space 45% of the k space is either low sec or high sec 55% is 0.0 so 1 in 4 holes will lead u to station systems add another 10% for 0.0 npc regions I think a 100-200 man alliance could maintain 3 such bmed warp systems perhaps a cooperative could form. if ccp pushes thro the new fuel pellet systems that could be easier. Work the logistics from a central wspace system rather than a ksystem would make it easier u just gotta think in reverse.
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.29 11:17:00 - [15] Edited by: Lt Angus on 29/01/2009 11:17:20 Im thinking being -10 has just become a lot less desirable if the exit happens to be high sec please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
gpfault Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2009.01.29 11:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 29/01/2009 11:17:20 Im thinking being -10 has just become a lot less desirable if the exit happens to be high sec I doubt wormholes will have gate cops so you'll have ample time to GTFO.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.01.29 11:38:00 - [17] Originally by: gpfault Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 29/01/2009 11:17:20 Im thinking being -10 has just become a lot less desirable if the exit happens to be high sec I doubt wormholes will have gate cops so you'll have ample time to GTFO. New variation on Orca Pirates, Wormhole Pirates. basically stay in your system and build up stuff and then raid into hi sec systems when the wormhole opens. Would take a lot of patience and of course the willingness to die to concord, but what weight is a pod? Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 11:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Originally by: gpfault Originally by: Lt Angus Edited by: Lt Angus on 29/01/2009 11:17:20 Im thinking being -10 has just become a lot less desirable if the exit happens to be high sec I doubt wormholes will have gate cops so you'll have ample time to GTFO. New variation on Orca Pirates, Wormhole Pirates. basically stay in your system and build up stuff and then raid into hi sec systems when the wormhole opens. Would take a lot of patience and of course the willingness to die to concord, but what weight is a pod? This is unlikely in the extreme. Imagine all the different variables that would have to align in order to make this practical. If you're going to go to all of that effort, why not just kill stuff in w-space or lowsec anyway?
WishBlade Caldari Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/01/2009 06:50:21 Originally by: Kuolematon TD;LR version missing - cannot compute. Hell, you need a TD;LR for a toilet roll That'd be TL;DU for too long; didn't use Aweseomenessness
Kehmor Caldari Malevolent Emo Herders	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:03:00 - [20] I'm gonna be the guy that kills other people's cov ops, and then charges them extortionate prices to use mine to get home. - Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.

Ticondrius	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:54:00 - [21] I agree that it seems like CCP is going to be cutting a fine wire. March 10th is not far away at all, and Apocrypha (Yes, I CAN spell it) is not on Singularity yet. Personally, I think this is going to be an IDEAL time to train Capital Ships V or perhaps Adv. Spaceship Command V if you don't already have them. See you after the patch to fix the patch to fix the patch to fix the patch to fix the..............the patch to fix the expansion.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:58:00 - [22] i took both pills and now i am part of a crack team of elite forum *****s, if you are in trouble and no one here is to help than maybe you can hire AC team This week EvE Life: Fleet fighting blog is now available
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:49:00 - [23] Seems to me that a lot of what you can do with w-space will depend on just how much mass those gates will allow through and how long they'll stick around, and also how numerous they are to some degree. If the wormholes are not numerous, I expect the w-space side of the wormholes to get hole-camped ;) as corporations try and secure the pocket for their own uses as quickly as possible. If the gates are really numerous, and don't last long, there may not be enough time to set up elaborate plans for the use of the systems, so you may end up with a more disorganized roaming gang type of thing going on until the system closes. I'm looking forward to the exploration and mining aspects of such systems, but I also expect that sort of thing to be as risky as doing it in lowsec.
libertarian cole	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Ana Vyr Seems to me that a lot of what you can do with w-space will depend on just how much mass those gates will allow through and how long they'll stick around, and also how numerous they are to some degree. If the wormholes are not numerous, I expect the w-space side of the wormholes to get hole-camped ;) as corporations try and secure the pocket for their own uses as quickly as possible. If the gates are really numerous, and don't last long, there may not be enough time to set up elaborate plans for the use of the systems, so you may end up with a more disorganized roaming gang type of thing going on until the system closes. I'm looking forward to the exploration and mining aspects of such systems, but I also expect that sort of thing to be as risky as doing it in lowsec. If its as risky as low-sec but with T3 stuff as the reward then I'm betting a lot of people will still go for it.
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.01.30 01:55:00 - [25] Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 30/01/2009 01:56:45 If there is pvp to be had there its all good the only thing that bugs me about the wormholes is if they are accessible from high sec will this "unknown" space have security ratings? IE if someone accesses a wormhole from a 0.5 or higher system will the unknown space be 0.5 or higher or will it be rated as low sec or nullsec? The game doesn't need even more ways of risk free wealth accumulation besides the fluffy aspect of unexplored space suddenly being patrolled by concord.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.01.30 02:23:00 - [26] Morpheus, this ** is just LSD! -- Originally by:** CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Soporo Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.30 03:59:00 - [27] I'm pretty sure they said will all be 0.0 type mechanics. Even the ones going from High Sec Empire systems. I think there will be a lot of mass destruction in these things at least till people start getting organized. Every bear in Emp is gonna wanna try em out, every prat in LowSuck will want to gank them and rat in them, and every o.o allaince flunkie with a scanner and some time will be looking for riches/pvp/rats too. At least some of these people will stay in there strictly to gank. It'll be crazy I reckon. I really wish small POS was the only thing allowed though, properly set up meds can be tough for a med/small BS gang and larges ... ... just forget it.
Cadaemon Return To Sender	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:15:00 - [28] Edited by: Cadaemon on 30/01/2009 04:16:44 Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran if someone accesses a wormhole from a 0.5 or higher system will the unknown space be 0.5 or higher or will it be rated as low sec or nullsec? It was said in the dev-blog or by one of the dev's in the thread about it that even if a worm hole is entered from 0.5 to 1.0 security space the worm hole system itself will always be 0.0 just a lesser quality one than a worm hole system entered from low-sec or nullsec.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.01.30 04:23:00 - [29] Honestly, the less time a new build spends on SiSi (if any) the better. We wouldn't get a chance to start at the same point, because you are bound to get somebody hellbent on figuring out every aspect of it on SiSi. How exactly does "true" exploration work if the powergamers of EVE figure it out before it goes live. The less "OMFG EVE is dying" posts the better, as well. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Jen Takhesis Vanguard Venture	Posted - 2009.01.30 05:26:00 - [30] Originally by: gpfault I doubt wormholes will have gate cops so you'll have ample time to GTFO. If the new "smart" sleeper npcs are really smart, they'll be gate camping all the wormholes.



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