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Lady Annastreia Kinetic Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:23:00 - [1] slow and dumb.. Right now there are several areas of high end t2 materials where people are selling their materials for loss (like the insane prices on ferrofluid few days ago - and quite lots of materials not reacting on the spiking dyspro prices at all). For quite significant loss actually. Dont you guys use spreadsheets or something like that? I mean, dont take it wrong, I love you for making my profits go through the roof - but maybe some of you should realize it.
Masque Blanc	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:33:00 - [2] quick to start another thread about how dumb people are for selling their stuff so cheap.
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:29:00 - [3] It's like with the Orca. If my calculations are correct (I am not in the Capital Ship business mind you), you can sell the components for roughly 480mil isk total. I have seen Orca's for sale at 460mil. Need I say more?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Need I say more? Only if you want a higher grade. C+ is where you are right now.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:48:00 - [5] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu It's like with the Orca. If my calculations are correct (I am not in the Capital Ship business mind you), you can sell the components for roughly 480mil isk total. I have seen Orca's for sale at 460mil. Need I say more? Nope, you're about right. Build price using parts off market is about 488m. Using buy orders you can get that down to around 450m, which oddly enough is actually faster right now than building the damn parts using bought minerals. Give it another few weeks and we'll see the corrected prices get back to around 510m
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:54:00 - [6] The problem with the stage you're talking about is that there is no way to go from Ferrogel to Ferrofluid. You can go from, say, a Thruster component to Ferrogel, but no further.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu It's like with the Orca. If my calculations are correct (I am not in the Capital Ship business mind you), you can sell the components for roughly 480mil isk total. I have seen Orca's for sale at 460mil. Need I say more? Nope, you're about right. Build price using parts off market is about 488m. Using buy orders you can get that down to around 450m, which oddly enough is actually faster right now than building the damn parts using bought minerals. Give it another few weeks and we'll see the corrected prices get back to around 510m Build from buy orders I think happens quite easily as supply outstrips demand over lengthy times. With the Orca it's obvious as everyone got on the bandwagon when the Orca first came in. Now demand is down because most of the initial purchase rush is over, but there are still lots of suppliers either with stock or still building them. You can see similar effects with rigs, to some degree. While they aren't being produced at below sell order prices, having buy orders for the parts definitely makes them worthwhile. The problem, like the Orca, is the rig market is pretty shallow. It doesn't take many producers to keep up with demand.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu It's like with the Orca. If my calculations are correct (I am not in the Capital Ship business mind you), you can sell the components for roughly 480mil isk total. I have seen Orca's for sale at 460mil. Need I say more? I have bought 3 at 450, I'm happy and I will resell them in a week or two
Pink Kiwi	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Nope, you're about right. Build price using parts off market is about 488m. Using buy orders you can get that down to around 450m, which oddly enough is actually faster right now than building the damn parts using bought minerals. Give it another few weeks and we'll see the corrected prices get back to around 510m I get a build price between 415m to 435m using sell order prices of components from the Jita market. Either my spreadsheet has a huge error in it, or your numbers are wrong.
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:32:00 - [10] Well, my calculations weren't based on Jita prices though. Selling 56mil SP PvP Char

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:35:00 - [11] Reasons are the following categories of people (in decreasing order of rage-inducing blame): * <stuff> I get myself is worthless and any sales price (above missing parts I bought using ISK) is pure profit for me so I can sell lower than my competition and still make a profit * <stuff> I react/manufacture is not linked to ingredient/component prices, since I no longer have the ingredients/components, so I will sell for whatever price the market accepts (since obviously stopping reaction/manufacture to sell the ingredients/components instead or recycling are not alternatives I would ever consider) * I am usually watching the prices/costs/whatever closely, but I never consider the prices things sell for now, but instead I use the price I paid when I got them in the first place * I am sitting on a lot of <stuff> stockpile and I need the ISK urgently, so I'll sell at whatever price I can get now _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Pink Kiwi Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Nope, you're about right. Build price using parts off market is about 488m. Using buy orders you can get that down to around 450m, which oddly enough is actually faster right now than building the damn parts using bought minerals. Give it another few weeks and we'll see the corrected prices get back to around 510m I get a build price between 415m to 435m using sell order prices of components from the Jita market. Either my spreadsheet has a huge error in it, or your numbers are wrong. Im using averages across a few different regions, but yeah if you want bottom dollar Jita has the best price on capital components at the moment.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Reasons are the following categories of people (in decreasing order of rage-inducing blame): * <stuff> I get myself is worthless and any sales price (above missing parts I bought using ISK) is pure profit for me so I can sell lower than my competition and still make a profit * <stuff> I react/manufacture is not linked to ingredient/component prices, since I no longer have the ingredients/components, so I will sell for whatever price the market accepts (since obviously stopping reaction/manufacture to sell the ingredients/components instead or recycling are not alternatives I would ever consider) * I am usually watching the prices/costs/whatever closely, but I never consider the prices things sell for now, but instead I use the price I paid when I got them in the first place * I am sitting on a lot of <stuff> stockpile and I need the ISK urgently, so I'll sell at whatever price I can get now you forgot Meh I just buy GTCs and plex or from an ISK seller to make up any losses. Meh Im just in it to produce. How can I be loseing money when Im running 2 production alts a mining alt a mission/exploration running alt a trade alt and need to start another production alt just to burn through the mound of Raw materials that is contstantly growing!!!!!!! I produce stuff for my corp but Im producing it faster than they can use it so I dump the excess at whatever price I can get
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:50:00 - [14] Edited by: nether void on 29/01/2009 18:50:33 Ah I think I'm getting the overall picture as to why the market margins can be so horrible at times. In RL there are bills. If you stop producing, you will go bankrupt. You MUST have a certain margin to continue to operate. There are obviously no such drivers in EVE. You CAN'T fail!
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 19:02:00 - [15] Originally by: nether void Edited by: nether void on 29/01/2009 18:50:33 Ah I think I'm getting the overall picture as to why the market margins can be so horrible at times. In RL there are bills. If you stop producing, you will go bankrupt. You MUST have a certain margin to continue to operate. There are obviously no such drivers in EVE. You CAN'T fail! Actualy you can, its just that in eve its easy to make it back and with the skill system being what it is it just gets easyer. lose your cruiser? put in the skills to fly a BC or skills to give you an extra 1-5% on that cruiser for next time. Loseing money on production runs? get the next step in mining gear or skills and be a bit more efficent getting the minerals for them. the list goes on and on to an annoying degree. the other problem is that the Developers WANT the prices low so that people will PvP more.
BruisedMoon Amarr VICTIS-HONOR	Posted - 2009.01.29 21:59:00 - [16] The reason that people seem to sell stuff at a lower cost then it can be built for, is a couple of reasons.... First off, either they just reprocess all of their useless junk (cough and don't know what kind of money reprocessing can make you cough) and use the mins they collect over time to build the stuff, thus it looks like they have no cost in it out side of the BPO that they used to purchase said item. Or, and in the case of casual capital builders... please note im using the word "casual" here in a loose sense, because we all know what kind of a pain it is to make cap ships. They mine everything, and build the capital ship then put it on market lower then everyone else, and sell it thinking ohh ill just undercut everyone so that mine sells faster. The sad thing is that most indy corps in this game have a very hard time relising that alot of what they put up on market is a waste of their time and they could make so much money else where, if they just stoppped and did a little research null
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Lady Annastreia slow and dumb.. Right now there are several areas of high end t2 materials where people are selling their materials for loss (like the insane prices on ferrofluid few days ago - and quite lots of materials not reacting on the spiking dyspro prices at all). For quite significant loss actually. Dont you guys use spreadsheets or something like that? I mean, dont take it wrong, I love you for making my profits go through the roof - but maybe some of you should realize it. so buy it all and sell for profitz!
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Lady Annastreia slow and dumb.. Right now there are several areas of high end t2 materials where people are selling their materials for loss (like the insane prices on ferrofluid few days ago - and quite lots of materials not reacting on the spiking dyspro prices at all). For quite significant loss actually. Dont you guys use spreadsheets or something like that? I mean, dont take it wrong, I love you for making my profits go through the roof - but maybe some of you should realize it. so buy it all and sell for profitz! This is not just limited to the mats but the final product as well. I'm looking at you Leowen, fix your pricing those things are worth more than that.
Loney CyberDyne R-D	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Lady Annastreia slow and dumb.. Right now there are several areas of high end t2 materials where people are selling their materials for loss (like the insane prices on ferrofluid few days ago - and quite lots of materials not reacting on the spiking dyspro prices at all). For quite significant loss actually. Dont you guys use spreadsheets or something like that? Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu It's like with the Orca. If my calculations are correct (I am not in the Capital Ship business mind you), you can sell the components for roughly 480mil isk total. I have seen Orca's for sale at 460mil. Need I say more? Not to throw a wrench in your machine here: but did it ever cross your mind they they are producing the said items above from the lowest base items possibe.. so they ARE making a profit.. and to they it don't matter the few millions isk profit cuase they are making hundres of millions!
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:07:00 - [20] the real problem is how do you value the materials lets take Isogen the "quick price" is 59.96 the Scam value is .01(and yes people do get that price for it) the current highest buyer price on my market is 58.50 the current lowest seller price is 46.90 (Blinks) YESH! LOOK AT YOUR FREAKING LOCAL MARKET YOU FREAKING IDIOTS!(brb) ok past tence on that one. and my current stock based on LILO price is 42.975

Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:14:00 - [21] ok I want to have a mini rant if your going to sell take a look at whats going on localy putting >200k units up for sale for the lowest price in the region to get it sold fast is idiotic when you can move to another station IN THE SAME SOLAR SYSTEM WITH THE SAME !@#$ NPC CORP and get ~ 25% more for it. by the same token, putting a buy order up for the highest price in the region is idiotic when you have someone selling or in the same sytem for the lowest price. dont be afraid to use range system or range 5 orders! its perfectly safe to do so most of the time.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Loney Not to throw a wrench in your machine here: but did it ever cross your mind they they are producing the said items above from the lowest base items possibe.. so they ARE making a profit.. and to they it don't matter the few millions isk profit cuase they are making hundres of millions! The profit needs to be analysed at each production stage if you want to maximize profits, not just overall. So, ok, they might be making "hundreds of millions" overall, but they would be making slightly more if they skipped the last NEGATIVE part and sold the components instead. Now, if you want to argue that they COULDN'T sell the components at all, while the finished product instantly flies off the shelves, that's a completely different story... and one that would still need tweaking, regardless. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Loney CyberDyne R-D	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T The profit needs to be analysed at each production stage if you want to maximize profits, not just overall. So, ok, they might be making "hundreds of millions" overall, but they would be making slightly more if they skipped the last NEGATIVE part and sold the components instead. Don't miss understand me... You are right they "could" be making slight more... but i was replying in referenct to the ORGINAL post saying "people are taking LOSSES" but in reality they are not.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Loney i was replying in referenct to the ORGINAL post saying "people are taking LOSSES" but in reality they are not. If you worked for 100 hours making each hour something that sells for 50$ a piece (for 5000$ total income), then you worked another 10 hours one hour each to merge bunches of 10 of those things and sell the bunch for 450$ a piece (for 4500$ total income), yeah, I WOULD say you are taking losses in your final 10 hours, precisely 500$ of it (and an additional 500$ on the time you could have used to make more of those 50$ a piece thingies) and in the real world you would call that a 1000$ loss. Let's say you could only sell 10 of those 50$ thingies before you would be forced to lower prices below ~40$ a piece, but you can sell hundreds of those 450$ thingies at that price, you are right, there's no loss. It's all a matter of perspective. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:48:00 - [25] So here is why I used to sell Megathrons at 'unprofitable' levels. I would have a pipeline of buy orders for melties which got turned into battleships. If I was suddenly undercut and sold the BS slowly I wouldn't have the ISK to put back into buy orders and all sorts of bad happened. Sourcing my materials 20% below buy order pricing and then turning around to sell the ships at slightly below mineral sell order pricing was still better than waiting for the ships to move before I could get more raw material. 20% return >>>>> 2% return. I would run my mega BPO 24x7. Not to somehow amortize the BPO, but to collect the 20% spread between reprocessed loot value and mineral sell order pricing.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2009.01.30 02:03:00 - [26] First rule of trading: cut losses short. If you don't understand this concept there is no hope for you.
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.31 00:19:00 - [27] Prices in Amarr: when buying components directly from sell orders, 527mil total build for an Orca. They sell for 470mil. Though you are kind of forced to sell the components with sell orders, as the buy orders for a lot of components are around 1mil ISK.
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.31 17:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Prices in Amarr: when buying components directly from sell orders, 527mil total build for an Orca. They sell for 470mil. Though you are kind of forced to sell the components with sell orders, as the buy orders for a lot of components are around 1mil ISK. noone is forceing you to buy from them. in fact its been some time since I bought from a buy order unless the price was under the market for that item(see my previoud post on the idiot who was selling Iso for way less than the current top buy price at a station that was literaly one moon over,) Often the higher priced orders are not their because they tend to get filled first.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2009.01.31 17:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Prices in Amarr: when buying components directly from sell orders, 527mil total build for an Orca. They sell for 470mil. Though you are kind of forced to sell the components with sell orders, as the buy orders for a lot of components are around 1mil ISK. Also, good luck selling cap components for sell order pricing in Amarr. You can use Jita sell order pricing fairly reliably. Anywhere else and you might be waiting a good long time until someone buys or undercuts.
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.31 18:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Mari Katarin Also, good luck selling cap components for sell order pricing in Amarr. You can use Jita sell order pricing fairly reliably. Anywhere else and you might be waiting a good long time until someone buys or undercuts. Well, a part of the Orca's I bought and reprocessed has been sold at Amarr prices already. I don't mind playing the 0.01 ISK game, so I am rather confident I will be able to sell the components at a good mark up. Selling 56mil SP PvP Char



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