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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:24:00 -
[31]
mhh but you cant use mwd as shield tanker + this cap charges are pretty huge, you can never a apoc in a raven.
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:24:00 -
[32]
mhh but you cant use mwd as shield tanker + this cap charges are pretty huge, you can never a apoc in a raven.
Wanna fly with me?
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:40:00 -
[33]
Armor tanking is superior to shield tanking, because of the CPR nerf, period.
The example of the cap booster for shield tanks cannot count as an armor tanking Apoc could use one too (and even hold 4 or 5 more charges at the same time compared to the Raven) and has thus left 3 medium + 2 low slots.
A Raven with an XL+3Hardener hast 1 medium slot left free, uses two lowslots for a RCU+PDU or three PDUs, leaving it with 2 free lowslots left.
Armor tanking is more cap efficient and allows you to fit cap recharging modules.
At the same time it repairs more hp/s unless the shield tanker uses an amplifier which leaves him with zero free medslots if he uses a cap injector while an apoc has 3 free medslots with a cap injector and armor tanking while restoring the same HP/s.
So, balanced? Don't make me laugh. It would be if CPRs would have 1/3 of their current penalty. But now it's definately not.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:40:00 -
[34]
Armor tanking is superior to shield tanking, because of the CPR nerf, period.
The example of the cap booster for shield tanks cannot count as an armor tanking Apoc could use one too (and even hold 4 or 5 more charges at the same time compared to the Raven) and has thus left 3 medium + 2 low slots.
A Raven with an XL+3Hardener hast 1 medium slot left free, uses two lowslots for a RCU+PDU or three PDUs, leaving it with 2 free lowslots left.
Armor tanking is more cap efficient and allows you to fit cap recharging modules.
At the same time it repairs more hp/s unless the shield tanker uses an amplifier which leaves him with zero free medslots if he uses a cap injector while an apoc has 3 free medslots with a cap injector and armor tanking while restoring the same HP/s.
So, balanced? Don't make me laugh. It would be if CPRs would have 1/3 of their current penalty. But now it's definately not.
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Jodax
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:43:00 -
[35]
I just skimmed this post, so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but as a typhoon pilot (coming from a tempest) I have both shield tanked and armor tanked.
From this perspective, I have seen that it is somewhat easier to armor tank (however the large use's 2000MW powergrid! nowhere near what a shield booster needs), and the only think between your armor and death is your hull. And lets face it, if you're into hull, you're cutting it DAMN close.
I would have to say there is generally more risk armor tanking, as the line is so much finer. At least with shield tanking, you know once your shields are gone, it's time to warp out and recharge.
Just my 2 isk.
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Jodax
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:43:00 -
[36]
I just skimmed this post, so I don't know if it's been mentioned, but as a typhoon pilot (coming from a tempest) I have both shield tanked and armor tanked.
From this perspective, I have seen that it is somewhat easier to armor tank (however the large use's 2000MW powergrid! nowhere near what a shield booster needs), and the only think between your armor and death is your hull. And lets face it, if you're into hull, you're cutting it DAMN close.
I would have to say there is generally more risk armor tanking, as the line is so much finer. At least with shield tanking, you know once your shields are gone, it's time to warp out and recharge.
Just my 2 isk.
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Lameth
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:48:00 -
[37]
And you can't Armor transfer to a Apoc, or fit Armor Repair flux coils that speeds up the Regeneration it should have.
Learn and adapt
or
Whine and grow bored
Everyones choice
"reallife.dll not found"
http://www.killboard.net/signature/<Lameth>.jpg |
Lameth
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Posted - 2004.08.03 11:48:00 -
[38]
And you can't Armor transfer to a Apoc, or fit Armor Repair flux coils that speeds up the Regeneration it should have.
Learn and adapt
or
Whine and grow bored
Everyones choice
"reallife.dll not found"
http://www.killboard.net/signature/<Lameth>.jpg |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.08.03 12:04:00 -
[39]
Yes, or get a ******* clue.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.08.03 12:04:00 -
[40]
Yes, or get a ******* clue.
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THE CHOSEN1
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Posted - 2004.08.03 12:10:00 -
[41]
i think keep things the same. Sure apoc can tank forever, it doesnt dish out alot of dmg compared to other ships so things are even.
and for a 1 vs 1 and apoc will probably fitted with
lows - 2 large named armor rep, 3 hardeners , 2 radar backup array 2's
meds - 3 x cap 2's and 1 warp disruptor/scrambler
now that setup with everything running wont be able to keep both armor reps going forever even with lvl5 skills. which puts it in the same shoes as the raven :)
raven = dish out more dmg doesnt last long
apoc = doesnt dish out much dmg but lasts longer
now if shield tank was the same as armor tank. Apoc wouldnt kill the raven and the raven would smoke the apoc.
i think ppl just use the raven wrong. Man fit siege launchers, use mwd and warp stabs and do hit and run >:]
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THE CHOSEN1
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Posted - 2004.08.03 12:10:00 -
[42]
i think keep things the same. Sure apoc can tank forever, it doesnt dish out alot of dmg compared to other ships so things are even.
and for a 1 vs 1 and apoc will probably fitted with
lows - 2 large named armor rep, 3 hardeners , 2 radar backup array 2's
meds - 3 x cap 2's and 1 warp disruptor/scrambler
now that setup with everything running wont be able to keep both armor reps going forever even with lvl5 skills. which puts it in the same shoes as the raven :)
raven = dish out more dmg doesnt last long
apoc = doesnt dish out much dmg but lasts longer
now if shield tank was the same as armor tank. Apoc wouldnt kill the raven and the raven would smoke the apoc.
i think ppl just use the raven wrong. Man fit siege launchers, use mwd and warp stabs and do hit and run >:]
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1FSTCAT
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Posted - 2004.08.03 13:29:00 -
[43]
But don't sheilds regenerate by themselves where armour dosen't
also once thy are through your armour they are into structure
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1FSTCAT
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Posted - 2004.08.03 13:29:00 -
[44]
But don't sheilds regenerate by themselves where armour dosen't
also once thy are through your armour they are into structure
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:24:00 -
[45]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 14:43:06
 Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: YuuKnow
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 05:15:39
Not only that, but shield tanking is gimped because they are stuck with power diags and can't get the uber fast recharge rates that a armor tank with cap relays anc rechargers can get (an apoc/mega can turn on 2 repairers and never have to turn them off)
And if you think for 2 minutes, you'll realise that an armor tanked ship can't take a lot of cap power relays, because most of it's low slots are already used, and that a shield tank has more med slots to put cap rechargers II. Overall I don't think there's much differences in capacitor recharge time between them.
Wrong.
A shield tank has less med slots than a armor tank has low slots.
Meds/Apocc/Typhoons = 7 slot slots, Geddon = 8 low slots
Raven = 6 med slots, Temp = 5 med slots.
A temp will have *0* med slots left after 3 hardeners and 1 med slot left if it ditches a hardener. A raven will have *1* med slot left after 3 hardeners and 2 med slot lefts if it ditches a harderner. Thus, its *less* cap mods than a apoc/mega would have if it has 3 hardeners (not forgetting that armor has intrinsically higher resistants anyway).
Additionally, the low slots of a shield tank can't fit cap relays, so it will only get 5% cap recharge from its 5 low slots (roughly 25% recharge), whereas armor tanks will get 20%(80% recharge). The 5% max cap boost from a pds is inferior to the 20% recharge boost of a cap relay. Raven's recharge will be 500-600s, apocs will be like 180-200.
so again, very, very, Wrong.
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:24:00 -
[46]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 14:43:06
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: YuuKnow
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 05:15:39
Not only that, but shield tanking is gimped because they are stuck with power diags and can't get the uber fast recharge rates that a armor tank with cap relays anc rechargers can get (an apoc/mega can turn on 2 repairers and never have to turn them off)
And if you think for 2 minutes, you'll realise that an armor tanked ship can't take a lot of cap power relays, because most of it's low slots are already used, and that a shield tank has more med slots to put cap rechargers II. Overall I don't think there's much differences in capacitor recharge time between them.
Wrong.
A shield tank has less med slots than a armor tank has low slots.
Meds/Apocc/Typhoons = 7 slot slots, Geddon = 8 low slots
Raven = 6 med slots, Temp = 5 med slots.
A temp will have *0* med slots left after 3 hardeners and 1 med slot left if it ditches a hardener. A raven will have *1* med slot left after 3 hardeners and 2 med slot lefts if it ditches a harderner. Thus, its *less* cap mods than a apoc/mega would have if it has 3 hardeners (not forgetting that armor has intrinsically higher resistants anyway).
Additionally, the low slots of a shield tank can't fit cap relays, so it will only get 5% cap recharge from its 5 low slots (roughly 25% recharge), whereas armor tanks will get 20%(80% recharge). The 5% max cap boost from a pds is inferior to the 20% recharge boost of a cap relay. Raven's recharge will be 500-600s, apocs will be like 180-200.
so again, very, very, Wrong.
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:37:00 -
[47]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 14:38:23
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Sield tanking > armor tanking
Now this is a bold statemtent I'm going to get some heat for. And no, I'm not entirely serious.
But you guys forget the bigger picture of the total setup.
A shieltanked Raven for example could use shieldtanking + heavy cap injector for cap. It's low would now be free to fit with pdu's for grid and maybe some ballisctic control.
Now look at an armortanked Dominix (same amount of lows as the Raven has meds). It will use 5 lowslots for armotanking (large, med II, 3 hardeners. Leaving only one low to increase grid with or fit a damage mod in.
Grid and damage mods are key to doing damage, a shieldtank has the opportunity to make much more use of their lowslots to genenrate damage, while an armortank spends its grid on tanking, leaving not enough to do comparable damage.
So in the end:
shieltank > armortank in possible damage dealing.
armotank > shieldtank in defense.
Did you forget the fact that a Raven only has 11875 base grid after engineering 5, while a apoc has 24375 and a mega 19375.
That's 12500 more grid on an apoc, 7500 more grid on a mega, than a raven.
Even with 5 PDS a raven will have OVER 10,000 less grid than a apoc has intrinstically.
The increased dps of a raven won't make any difference if the armor tank can absorb it all. (not to mention armor resistance are greater than shield resistances).
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:37:00 -
[48]
Edited by: YuuKnow on 03/08/2004 14:38:23
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Sield tanking > armor tanking
Now this is a bold statemtent I'm going to get some heat for. And no, I'm not entirely serious.
But you guys forget the bigger picture of the total setup.
A shieltanked Raven for example could use shieldtanking + heavy cap injector for cap. It's low would now be free to fit with pdu's for grid and maybe some ballisctic control.
Now look at an armortanked Dominix (same amount of lows as the Raven has meds). It will use 5 lowslots for armotanking (large, med II, 3 hardeners. Leaving only one low to increase grid with or fit a damage mod in.
Grid and damage mods are key to doing damage, a shieldtank has the opportunity to make much more use of their lowslots to genenrate damage, while an armortank spends its grid on tanking, leaving not enough to do comparable damage.
So in the end:
shieltank > armortank in possible damage dealing.
armotank > shieldtank in defense.
Did you forget the fact that a Raven only has 11875 base grid after engineering 5, while a apoc has 24375 and a mega 19375.
That's 12500 more grid on an apoc, 7500 more grid on a mega, than a raven.
Even with 5 PDS a raven will have OVER 10,000 less grid than a apoc has intrinstically.
The increased dps of a raven won't make any difference if the armor tank can absorb it all. (not to mention armor resistance are greater than shield resistances).
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:41:00 -
[49]
Originally by: THE CHOSEN1
i think keep things the same. Sure apoc can tank forever, it doesnt dish out alot of dmg compared to other ships so things are even.
and for a 1 vs 1 and apoc will probably fitted with
lows - 2 large named armor rep, 3 hardeners , 2 radar backup array 2's
meds - 3 x cap 2's and 1 warp disruptor/scrambler
now that setup with everything running wont be able to keep both armor reps going forever even with lvl5 skills. which puts it in the same shoes as the raven :)
raven = dish out more dmg doesnt last long
apoc = doesnt dish out much dmg but lasts longer
now if shield tank was the same as armor tank. Apoc wouldnt kill the raven and the raven would smoke the apoc.
i think ppl just use the raven wrong. Man fit siege launchers, use mwd and warp stabs and do hit and run >:]
A equipvalent setup in a raven would be:
low: 2 grav backup array II's, 3 pds
Med: shield booster, shield amp, 3 hardeners, and warp disruptor/scramblers.
Its cap recharge will be over 10 min!! and it won't even last as long as the apoc.
yk
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YuuKnow
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Posted - 2004.08.03 14:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: THE CHOSEN1
i think keep things the same. Sure apoc can tank forever, it doesnt dish out alot of dmg compared to other ships so things are even.
and for a 1 vs 1 and apoc will probably fitted with
lows - 2 large named armor rep, 3 hardeners , 2 radar backup array 2's
meds - 3 x cap 2's and 1 warp disruptor/scrambler
now that setup with everything running wont be able to keep both armor reps going forever even with lvl5 skills. which puts it in the same shoes as the raven :)
raven = dish out more dmg doesnt last long
apoc = doesnt dish out much dmg but lasts longer
now if shield tank was the same as armor tank. Apoc wouldnt kill the raven and the raven would smoke the apoc.
i think ppl just use the raven wrong. Man fit siege launchers, use mwd and warp stabs and do hit and run >:]
A equipvalent setup in a raven would be:
low: 2 grav backup array II's, 3 pds
Med: shield booster, shield amp, 3 hardeners, and warp disruptor/scramblers.
Its cap recharge will be over 10 min!! and it won't even last as long as the apoc.
yk
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Roxy
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:19:00 -
[51]
YuuKnow you just said all i feel is wrong with shield tanking atm. I thank Yuu cause i wont have to say it now 
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Roxy
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:19:00 -
[52]
YuuKnow you just said all i feel is wrong with shield tanking atm. I thank Yuu cause i wont have to say it now
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:27:00 -
[53]
Shield tanking:
pro: you have armor left after shield is gone
Armor Tanking:
pro: more cap efficient
you can use mwd
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
you get higher resistances
you dont need to fill your whole cargo with some 800er chargers for the cap booster (which takes 1/9 of the ravens PG)
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:27:00 -
[54]
Shield tanking:
pro: you have armor left after shield is gone
Armor Tanking:
pro: more cap efficient
you can use mwd
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
you get higher resistances
you dont need to fill your whole cargo with some 800er chargers for the cap booster (which takes 1/9 of the ravens PG)
Wanna fly with me?
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Ara Lamari
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Nafri
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
Having a higher cap recharge rate is a bad thing not a good thing. A lower cap recharge rate is better.
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Ara Lamari
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Nafri
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
Having a higher cap recharge rate is a bad thing not a good thing. A lower cap recharge rate is better.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:34:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ara Lamari
Originally by: Nafri
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
Having a higher cap recharge rate is a bad thing not a good thing. A lower cap recharge rate is better.
ahh well sorry, that may happen when you think and write in different languages 
of couse the lower refresh rate is better, and amarr have them
Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ara Lamari
Originally by: Nafri
you have much higher cap recharge (caldari have about
700 seconds standard)
Having a higher cap recharge rate is a bad thing not a good thing. A lower cap recharge rate is better.
ahh well sorry, that may happen when you think and write in different languages
of couse the lower refresh rate is better, and amarr have them
Wanna fly with me?
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:38:00 -
[59]
who cares, if you dont like shields use armour.
if you dont like your ship train another one.
bah
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.08.03 15:38:00 -
[60]
who cares, if you dont like shields use armour.
if you dont like your ship train another one.
bah
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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