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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Can we have a JSON payload instead of XML to make it easier for developing Android apps that prefer JSON as they only have basic SAX library and JSON is pretty much free and the preferred droid format for web services :)
Can we specify the payload response format as a parameter please? |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
Imperial Ascension
362
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
JSON output would be very nice. Personally I think XML is a pain. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:JSON output would be very nice. Personally I think XML is a pain.
I have no problem with XML as a format, the issue is that Android prefers JSON and has better support on it than XML. Not to mention across API levels on droid XML has issues on parsing.
I prefer to build a house using bricks supplied, not having to make the bricks too :) |
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
215
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cause XML is a open standard and JSON is a JAVA standard.
Why would you want to be dependent on JAVA a third party who is known for poor memory control and and lots of holes in there code.
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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Cause XML is a open standard and JSON is a JAVA standard.
Why would you want to be dependent on JAVA a third party who is known for poor memory control and and lots of holes in there code.
This isnt a thread about what is better or not, this is a thead for IF YOU WANT ANDROID EVE APPS, then make them use native protocols, JSON is native to droid so we can bring apps to you faster. I am asking for a parameter we can set so we can get JSON and you can still keep your default XML without it.
If you want me on board for droid apps, talk JSON because I don't want to reinvent the wheel that already exists (XML parsing in SAX which as i previously stated is inconsistent across droid API levels). I don't want to take dependencies on external libraries and hope to get redistribution licenses in order to sell my app on the market and have to depend on them for fixes rather than the stock API levels.
The point is to make developing for the API easier rather than harder. Ship dual payload formats, it isn't that hard, WCF services will pump out both formats using the ServiceModel attribute for the ResponseFormat for their webservice. And since CCP are an ASP house I am pretty sure they are using WCF as their webservice stack. |
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
215
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I understand your aggravation but most likely it comes down to allocating resources to a converter when there are several already out there. "just a guess"
Now that being said with the number of third party programs and support issues out there you would think there would be a forum section for third party applications.
Considering 3rd party and out of game access is something CCP is pushing for.
So CCP please create a forum section for EVE related 3rd party applications where they can be discussed.
And people can find them when they need them.
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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Put it this way, when they charge for API access, count me out if they don't talk my language. In droid's case its JSON and REST, so far they only got 50% right. Windows Phone is a no runner for app development for me because it is locked down tighter than a bunnies bottom and iOS I havn't looked at yet but currently talking droid right now for its openness and ease of development ( I also talk over bluetooth etc which WP cannot do), and am considering integrating with bluetooth devices for some "agumented" apps (audio augomentation and perhaps visual augmentation when certain devices come to market). |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Scratch what I said there is a EVE technology Forum section.
That is where this belongs
They are welcome to move it to that section but I live in General forum, don't care where they put it as long as they read it and consider it. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
Imperial Ascension
362
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm an enterprise level software developer and for me at least XML is a ballache at the best of times; node processing, in particular text nodes, is convoluted and lacks any semblance of elegance due to the extras that were added on top of it.
JSON by comparison is lighter, has a tighter binding to internal memory representation and is just generally better. I think it's now pretty much the defacto standard for AJAX which is a good thing.
First thing I do with the EvE online API is convert it to a more JSON relatable representation. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
229
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Posted - 2012.04.21 14:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:I'm an enterprise level software developer and for me at least XML is a ballache at the best of times; node processing, in particular text nodes, is convoluted and lacks any semblance of elegance due to the extras that were added on top of it.
JSON by comparison is lighter, has a tighter binding to internal memory representation and is just generally better. I think it's now pretty much the defacto standard for AJAX which is a good thing.
First thing I do with the EvE online API is convert it to a more JSON relatable representation.
Well with XML you can autovalidate against a Schema (JSON also has a draft spec on this for the future for schema autovalidation so no big difference here), XPATH and XDOM's and Linq for XML makes it easy but just is pretty much out for Anadroid.
I really want to build these "augmented" apps, not your plain bog standard boring form display apps. I am targeting ahead in the future for various wearables and that also means Bluetooth mostly which is only pretty much accessible on Droid (and probably iOS - havn't looked at their API yet), but I need droid for now.
I don't want to turn this thread into XML vs JSON and which is better or not, I just want native support for Android to make building stuff easier so I can focus more on the app and less on being a plumber.
Dual payloads to support both worlds, it is possible to do, just please do it :)
This way you can pick and choose and everybody is happy. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
230
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Posted - 2012.04.21 16:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fly me up to Iceland ill fix it for you :P |
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ISD Grossvogel
Community Communications Liaisons
71
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Posted - 2012.04.21 17:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thread moved from General Discussion.
ISD Grossvogel (ISD -ô-Ç-+-ü-ü-ä-+-¦-¦-+-î)
Captain, Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)
-Æ-+-+-+-+-é-æ-Ç -¦-Ç-â-+-+-ï -+-+ -¦-+-¦-+-+-+-¦-¦-¦-ü-é-¦-+-Ä -ü -+-¦-Ç-+-¦-¦-+-+
Interstellar Services Department |
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Desmont McCallock
164
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Posted - 2012.04.21 17:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
AFAIK EVE Devs said something about CREST and SDE dumps being in YAML in the future. I could be wrong though cause that FF DevTrack video was hard to watch. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
230
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Posted - 2012.04.21 17:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Desmont McCallock wrote:AFAIK EVE Devs said something about CREST and SDE dumps being in YAML in the future. I could be wrong though cause that FF DevTrack video was hard to watch.
CREST, SDE, YAML, why would I care about those? Android doesn't support those letters. |
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ISD Eshtir
Community Communications Liaisons
85
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Posted - 2012.04.21 18:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thread cleaned, be nice and stay on topic!
ISD Eshtir
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
231
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Posted - 2012.04.21 18:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CREST_Documentation
Seems they WILL be supporting JSON in future.
"Representations are formatted as JSON objects containing name/value pairs and nested objects and arrays. Some name/value pairs are optional, meaning that they may be omitted by senders when not applicable. Some name/value pairs have default values which will be used when a value is not provided. "
Problem solved. XML going bye bye too? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
364
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Cause XML is a open standard and JSON is a JAVA standard.
Why would you want to be dependent on JAVA a third party who is known for poor memory control and and lots of holes in there code.
Just as a minor note, JSON is /Javascript/ not Java. JavaScript Object Notation.
They're not significantly related.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript
It's a reasonable format. XML has advantages for error detection, as you can have everything defined in a DTD or XSD, allowing for off the shelf parsing. Also allows for XSLT for direct display. But JSON is /simple/. And these days, most languages have a built in parser. Including Javascript (only an idiot evals JSON)
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
364
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Posted - 2012.04.21 21:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Miilla wrote:Now, what is SDE?
Static Data Extract
It's the database dump that gets updated every major release (then converted by people into alternate formats)
As for YAML:
SnakeYaml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4054083/is-there-a-good-yaml-library-for-android
total of 5 seconds of search on google.
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Dragonaire
Corax.
The Big Dirty
39
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Posted - 2012.04.22 03:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
You might also try looking at some of the other ways to parser XML as SAX just sucks IMHO 
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/x-android/
It has a section or two on the pull parser which is much easier to work with and is similar to XMLReader from PHP it looks like.
Finds camping stations from the inside much easier.
Designer of Yapeal for Eve API.
Check out the Yapeal PHP API library thread for more information. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1294
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Posted - 2012.04.22 03:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yeah, +1 for JSON API info. I write most of my code in Python and JSON is amazingly simple to use while XML is amazingly complicated. I would love to be able to do stuff in JSON instead of XML. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 10:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yes I know about it, thing is, I want to use platform libraries or a library I can redistribute with no issues in the license for paid apps and good support.
But they are using JSON so that isnt an issue now. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 10:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
I wont be using XML and SAX for the very reason you state, it sucks and an even bigger problem is that it is INCONSISTENT across some API levels for example, XPath is buggy across API levels.
Again , taking a dependency on external giblets (libraries) is a risk in both support and licensing issues when redistributing.
Great thing about JSON is it takes less code to process so I have less "plumbing" and more "app" in my app :) |
Khorkrak
War Tribe
2
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Posted - 2012.04.22 20:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
JSON is a subset of YAML.
XML is preferable when you can use xpath to avoid having to iterate through things to find what you need otherwise JSON is much easier to read and deal with both as a human and in code. Seems odd that XML processing is as borked as Miilla claims it is across android platform versions since they are using Java and in Javaland XML is heavily used for everything possible despite it being a particularly awful format for humans to have to deal with. For example, config files - lets use XML - bleah - that's where YAML comes into its own.
JSON is nice because its 98% Python - just fix the lower case true / false and convert null to None and voila.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
237
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Posted - 2012.04.22 20:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Khorkrak wrote:JSON is a subset of YAML. XML is preferable when you can use xpath to avoid having to iterate through things to find what you need otherwise JSON is much easier to read and deal with both as a human and in code. Seems odd that XML processing is as borked as Miilla claims it is across android platform versions since they are using Java and in Javaland XML is heavily used for everything possible despite it being a particularly awful format for humans to have to deal with. For example, config files - lets use XML - bleah - that's where YAML comes into its own. JSON is nice because its 98% Python - just fix the lower case true / false and convert null to None and voila.
Android prefers JSON over XML, it is by design. XMl is there via a basic SAX library but does that even have Schema validation which is where XML gains benefit? I don't think it does (correct me if I am wrong, I dont use the SAX lib), JSON hasn't schema validation ether (there is a spec on that though) but not in the JSON library.
Lets not forget this is a mobile device and you want to keep your stuff lightweight. That is why REST and JSON is favoured on it, only an idiot is gona run SOAP and RPC based mechanisms over the air on them.
JSON maybe a subset of YAML but unless there is a native library or something CCP ships that we can redistribute, they may aswell be talking Swahilli.
yes XML is used on droid, for their form designer etc. but there has been reports of XPath being buggy and anyway JSON is so much easier to parse on droid, so why not use it, not to mention the previous comment about traffic usage.
They COULD talk both payload formats easily without extra business logic behind it, just have dual interfaces on the Service contracts in WCF or base it on the parameter passed to change the ResponseFormat back to JSON from XML depending on the call.
But anyway that is all moot as they are going JSON, thank goodness.
The thing with droid development is you have to pick your minimum API level carefully, or you could cut out a huge part of your customer base (unless you control the "package" you can sell then you can supply whatever meets the feature bar).
The minimum API level u want is level 7 or 8, nothing lower, it is at API 15 publically currently (4.0.3) and even then that is narrow % out there. Most new devices are API 14 (unpatched to 4.0.3). 2.2/2.3 is more widespread cheap chineese tablets are 2.0 for some reason, most tablets are 3.0 minimum (fragment support) and new handhelds are 4.0).
I just want to build a house, not make the bricks too. |
Etil DeLaFuente
New Eclipse
Initiative Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2012.04.23 07:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
+1 for a JSON API, the actual xml version is crap and non consistent.
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