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What is metagaming?

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Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:47:00 - [1] I keep seeing people ask what is metagaming since the collapse of BoB. So, I figured this would help for those that keep asking, What is metagaming?.. Metagaming WIKI Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:48:00 - [2] And, in EVE, metagaming can refer to Espionage, IPO Schemes, Contract Scamming, etc..
Navtiqes Englebarna	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:51:00 - [3] The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game.
Element 22 Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Alphaeblue And, in EVE, metagaming can refer to Espionage, IPO Schemes, Contract Scamming, etc.. But those are all inside the game and encouraged. You don't need to eve step out of character to do those. Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.02.05 14:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Alphaeblue And, in EVE, metagaming can refer to Espionage, IPO Schemes, Contract Scamming, etc.. Quoting fail
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:00:00 - [6] Originally by: Navtiqes The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game. No one ever does that..
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Element 22 Originally by: Alphaeblue And, in EVE, metagaming can refer to Espionage, IPO Schemes, Contract Scamming, etc.. But those are all inside the game and encouraged. You don't need to eve step out of character to do those. LOL - you think people don't use metagaming concepts to do any of that which I listed? I guess you are a newb.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: Navtiqes The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game. No one ever does that.. wow, just wow. fail.
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: Navtiqes The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game. No one ever does that.. Sigh. But yes, it's generally when you're playing or affecting the game by doing something that isn't actually INSIDE the game. Be it forum spying, allegiance forming through means other than in game communication systems, etc etc.
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:24:00 - [10] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: Navtiqes The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game. No one ever does that.. wow, just wow. fail. yes - fail for you - it's called (SARCASM) a word that more often than not disappears from a kid's vocabulary.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: Element 22 Originally by: Alphaeblue And, in EVE, metagaming can refer to Espionage, IPO Schemes, Contract Scamming, etc.. But those are all inside the game and encouraged. You don't need to eve step out of character to do those. LOL - you think people don't use metagaming concepts to do any of that which I listed? I guess you are a newb. Of course people use metagaming methods to do those things, but that doesn't make the actions themselves metagaming.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: Navtiqes The term covers any gaming activity you're doing without actually playing the game. No one ever does that.. wow, just wow. fail. yes - fail for you - it's called (SARCASM) a word that more often than not disappears from a kid's vocabulary. oh yeah, sorry I couldn't tell by the sound of your typing I'm an "idiot" I'll "consider" your lesson "learned"
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:40:00 - [13] Its when you make a damn dirty alt to scout/haul/falcon for you! Also killboard = metagame. You are all horrible people! SHAME!
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:57:00 - [14] Originally by: bff Jill Its when you make a damn dirty alt to scout/haul/falcon for you! Also killboard = metagame. You are all horrible people! SHAME! the very nature of EVE has metagaming built-in ... most likely because it inherently lacks the full ability to meet the needs of the players without it (ie- contract scams, player run banks, etc). or simply because EVE makes it very very easy and useful to do... (ie- hauler/cyno alts). regardless of why we do such things, the devs have seemed to encouraged these sorts of things as "part of the game", especially, when you consider the API feature for 3rd party utilities and websites that are "out of game" (ie- Evemon, eve-central, etc). i believe EVE is more of a "meta-game" at least partially due to its sandbox nature. in other games, there is much more focus on the "sand" itself, rather than building sandcastles out of it. so for EVE in general, we really have to draw different boundaries on what is considered metagaming. apparently alot of these things, while compared to other MMO's are technically metagaming, in EVE they are "part of the game". for example, afk-cloaking and login traps may be considered actual EVE metagaming tactics, while hauler alts are not. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:01:00 - [15] Espionage (in eve at least) is not metagaming. An example of metagaming in eve would be: hacking a game account of another player and using it to effect in-game politics, or hacking into another entity's forums and posting the intel for everybody else to see. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Alora Venoda Originally by: bff Jill Its when you make a damn dirty alt to scout/haul/falcon for you! Also killboard = metagame. You are all horrible people! SHAME! the very nature of EVE has metagaming built-in ... most likely because it inherently lacks the full ability to meet the needs of the players without it (ie- contract scams, player run banks, etc). or simply because EVE makes it very very easy and useful to do... (ie- hauler/cyno alts). regardless of why we do such things, the devs have seemed to encouraged these sorts of things as "part of the game", especially, when you consider the API feature for 3rd party utilities and websites that are "out of game" (ie- Evemon, eve-central, etc). i believe EVE is more of a "meta-game" at least partially due to its sandbox nature. in other games, there is much more focus on the "sand" itself, rather than building sandcastles out of it. so for EVE in general, we really have to draw different boundaries on what is considered metagaming. apparently alot of these things, while compared to other MMO's are technically metagaming, in EVE they are "part of the game". for example, afk-cloaking and login traps may be considered actual EVE metagaming tactics, while hauler alts are not. This post response - I agree with. I think people in general have manipulated the word metagaming in EVE so often that everyone has a different concept about the terminology. Metagaming exists in every game. It does not have to exist "outside" the game in order for it to be metagaming. Jetcans are a metagame tactic in two forms. Mining with jetcans gives you a greater ability to store than with secure cans. Using this tactic allows you a greater return over time but it has its limitations. The same can be said where people wait for someone near a station to grab an item out of a setup can. Manipulating the game to exploit in one shape or another (while allowed by CCP) is still considered a metagaming (strategy or tactic).
Aylara	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:21:00 - [17] You can add GTC trading to the metagaming list. Use out of the game (RL cash) to modify your status in the game world.
Alphaeblue	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:28:00 - [18] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Espionage (in eve at least) is not metagaming. An example of metagaming in eve would be: hacking a game account of another player and using it to effect in-game politics, or hacking into another entity's forums and posting the intel for everybody else to see. Again, this is not true. You are attempting to redefine the word metagaming. Espionage in EVE uses metagame concepts (metagame tactics or strategies). If you know how to do X and that it can only be countered with Y and Z and you figure out a way to remove Y and Z from the equation - you've discovered a metagaming strategy or tactic. You CAN do this with espionage in EVE.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Alphaeblue Jetcans are a metagame tactic in two forms. Mining with jetcans gives you a greater ability to store than with secure cans. Using this tactic allows you a greater return over time but it has its limitations. The same can be said where people wait for someone near a station to grab an item out of a setup can. Manipulating the game to exploit in one shape or another (while allowed by CCP) is still considered a metagaming (strategy or tactic). since EVE encourages "creative use of game mechanics" up to a certain point that "borders on exploiting" then can we really call it metagaming rather than "part of the game"? and things like jetcan mining, station/gate camping, cloaking and aggro games, etc... while maybe not originally intended in the design, these are fully within the bounds of normal game play. they would only be considered "metagaming" in the purest technical sense. so if EVE was a 1-player game, these tactics may be considered "tricks" much like "finding the safe spot when fighting the boss" of those old NES games, which were very much metagaming in the terms you describe. but EVE is an MMO and consists of much more than purely in-game capabilities, which are constantly evolving anyway. if the devs decided such "tricks" were not a desirable use of game mechanics, they would have removed them. and since many such tricks have become ubiquitous they are very much a "part of the game" now, and may as well be in the tutorial. in fact i believe the use of jetcans is described in the CCP authored player guide... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Alphaeblue Again, this is not true. You are attempting to redefine the word metagaming. Espionage in EVE uses metagame concepts (metagame tactics or strategies). Only if espionage isn't in any way supported or allowed by the game mechanics. Metagaming is "the game surrounding the game" (by very definition of "meta") — something that exists beyond and outside the game itself. The use of espionage can be metagaming, depending on how the intel is used (eg. to uncover other meta-tactics such as the use of alts). The act of espionage can also be metagaming, depending on how it is performed (intercepting out-of-game communications). However, neither of these makes espionage metagaming in the absolute way you want to describe it: it's still entirely possible to use in-game mechnics to gain in-game intel about in-game stuff. Quote: If you know how to do X and that it can only be countered with Y and Z and you figure out a way to remove Y and Z from the equation - you've discovered a metagaming strategy or tactic. No, you've just found an enabler, or a counter-counter. By your definition, shooting logistics and ewar ships is metagaming, when it is in fact just an enabler for your DPS ships to have any effect. The problem with your description is the "remove Y and Z from the equation" bit — for it to be metagaming, you need to remove Y and Z from the game (eg. getting them both nerfed to hell, or forcing the players capable of Y and Z to log off). Quote: You CAN do this with espionage in EVE. Sure. You can do it with espionage, but that doesn't make espionage itself metagaming. If I sell a car using PR, that doesn't make the sale an act of PR — the sale is still just a sale. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Grek Forto THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 16:57:00 - [21] Meta-Gaming in EVE is to close alliances.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Alphaeblue Originally by: R3dSh1ft Espionage (in eve at least) is not metagaming. An example of metagaming in eve would be: hacking a game account of another player and using it to effect in-game politics, or hacking into another entity's forums and posting the intel for everybody else to see. Again, this is not true. You are attempting to redefine the word metagaming. Espionage in EVE uses metagame concepts (metagame tactics or strategies). If you know how to do X and that it can only be countered with Y and Z and you figure out a way to remove Y and Z from the equation - you've discovered a metagaming strategy or tactic. You CAN do this with espionage in EVE. i agree that espionage will always be metagaming at some level. even in real life it's a metagame. say for example a spy from a business has infiltrated a competitor business as an entry level clerk. well that "clerk" isn't really just a clerk, and he isn't a normal employee. he has different goals than the other clerks, and will use tactics that normal clerks don't know about. as an agent of his "real employer" he is metagaming for that business to get inside intel. it's what spies do: they "play with the system". but to other spies and counter-intel agents, it's a whole different game with it's own set of rules. so from the perspective of espionage and counter-intel, they are playing the spy game normally, but they are metagaming at business. and i think that's what R3dSh1ft was getting at. in EVE, it's all "part of the game". surely the game was not designed so that we could trust everyone at face value... oh that guy is from an NPC corp, and never been in a player corp, that means he's a newb, right? of course, using alts to hide corp affiliation is a different matter. in the pure RP sense, alts are technically metagaming. but in EVE they are part of the game just like a ship or weapon, largely because much of the playerbase uses them, but also since the devs have encouraged them and included them in the game design. in EVE the "players" are not just the character they use, but the actual person. we are building sandcastles, not collecting sand with particular characters. the community of players is as much a part of EVE as the ships, planets, asteroids, stargates, etc. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:32:00 - [23] another example for you to ponder: when playing poker, is bluffing and using tells to detect if someone else is bluffing, considered metagaming? or is that all part of the game? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Golan Cinquanteneuf Gallente Carthage.	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:19:00 - [24] Originally by: MotherMoon oh yeah, sorry I couldn't tell by the sound of your typing [:roll: I'm an "idiot" I'll "consider" your lesson "learned" Not really taking a side here, but some of us ARE capable of expressing ourselves through text WITHOUT the use of smiley's or emoticons.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Golan Cinquanteneuf Originally by: MotherMoon oh yeah, sorry I couldn't tell by the sound of your typing [:roll: I'm an "idiot" I'll "consider" your lesson "learned" Not really taking a side here, but some of us ARE capable of expressing ourselves through text WITHOUT the use of smiley's or emoticons. really? this revelation just made me sad but then, bob disbanded

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