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Kary Savage	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:51:00 - [1] soo....with t3 coming out t2 aint gonna be the good thing so why not re-introduce the t2 BPO system to make t2 cheaper? t3 will bee veeery expensive when it first comes out so when they introduce that t2 would be considerably cheaper thus more people will use it and stopping t3 becoming the FOTM and thus the ballance issue is not such a pain in the bum.
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:56:00 - [2] Edited by: Amerilia on 07/02/2009 14:55:47 Where is the problem with T2? Last time I checked I used T2 quite a lot...
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:56:00 - [3] T3 isn't a replacement for T2. Also T2 doesn't need to get cheaper. Also we don't need another roll of T2 BPOs given out at random by a arbitrary lottery system that was flawed to begin with. Also troll. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.07 14:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Kary Savage soo....with t3 coming out t2 aint gonna be the good thing Really? Why? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Elysarian Minmatar dudetruck corp	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:04:00 - [5] Should just lose T1 loot IMO... and remove any NPC-manufactured T1 stuff too - give the Industrialists a break for once! ===================================== It smells of spoon! =====================================
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:10:00 - [6] You're comparing apples with broomsticks. T3 is a completely different beast then T2. Originally by: AkRoYeR ...the beauty of EvE. You have to live on the edge all the time. If you don't stay frosty, you will die! Best game ever!
Nimminnas Vibeke Minmatar Zarena Family Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:15:00 - [7] ramblerambleramble Start invention->produce->sell-profit
D'wayne	Posted - 2009.02.07 15:50:00 - [8] Edited by: D''wayne on 07/02/2009 15:51:56 Originally by: Kary Savage why not re-introduce the t2 BPO system to make t2 cheaper? It wont do much to make t2 cheaper. The high prices aren't because people dont have access to blueprints (invention has fixed that), it's the high prices of moon minerals.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.07 17:12:00 - [9] maybe, just maybe , if you have no idea wtf you are talking bout do not post. t2 is OK, t3 will add onto it, and theres always a place for t1. Please, jump into traffic
Shevar Minmatar Target Practice incorporated	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:51:00 - [10] Edited by: Shevar on 07/02/2009 18:53:12 ... Replied to the wrong thread --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Kary Savage soo....with t3 coming out t2 aint gonna be the good thing so why not re-introduce the t2 BPO system to make t2 cheaper? t3 will bee veeery expensive when it first comes out so when they introduce that t2 would be considerably cheaper thus more people will use it and stopping t3 becoming the FOTM and thus the ballance issue is not such a pain in the bum. Nope, because the lottery sistem was a broken sistem.. a completly broken sistem that still affects the economy today, and it will continue to do so untill the whole invention sistem is overhauled(replaced by something else maybe!?). If there was a decent/acceptable way to remove all t2 bpo's from game it would have hapened the second invention kicked in high gear.. but there isn't one, and t2 bpo's(some of them atleast) still give an undeserved edge to the owners. Invention as it stands now is also a broken sistem and it will be changed sooner or later. If you wanna change something with the t2 production process design, work with the actual invention sistem, or beter think of a superior one and put it on the table for discussion.. but don't ask for broken game mechanics to be reintroduced.
Kusum Fawn	Posted - 2009.02.08 03:35:00 - [12] 1) RL blueprints do not break or disappear once the object is made. 2) Every Blueprint is an "origional" If placed in a digital format, copy time for a digital Blueprint = seconds (maybe starchips are a bit bigger, but wouldnt computers have gotten faster too?) 3) Inventing an blueprint, see 1 and 2 Now for eve, Releasing a new set of t2 bpos, would A) make some people happy, B) make some people very very angry, both are justified, but set B has a stronger arguement and, well, are right. Set A- we wants them cause the invention process is expensive, hard, and fails a lot. Congratulations! you are right, but why should it be easy, cheap and simple? Set B- We took the time and spent the Isk to train the damn skills and buy the bpo's t copy and waited for the inventions, why should they get a free ride? Congratulations, You are also correct, there is no reason to make a new set of t2 bpos except to make the market crazy. people crazy, and waste the lives of people who are inventing. Current t2 Bpo's- yes they make it easier for those people, but they still get sold bought and traded, they are valuable things, and as such are hoarded carefully (as they should) the numbers that they exist in arent so great as to make inventions unprofitable for everyone else so save your isk and by one. or just invent like the rest of us. While they are an upset to the market, and make loads of isk for the owners, the owners also need terrific loads of isk to build and maintain other things so i think it evens out a bit, like nosec POS's and Outposts, or even the simple production of the items themselves, while it is true that inventors have nosec pos's, builders face the same issues that they do in terms of logistics for materials. Also t2 bpos of things like mining crystals means that i dont have to invent them myself and can buy cheap ones, thus freeing me up to spend more isk on ships, ship bpos, and ship inventions for self, friends, and corp.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.08 03:44:00 - [13] unless they allowed bpos to be inventable then no I dont think they should be hand me outs at all. You also cant invent tech 3 ships atm, and not sure about tech 3 modules. ============= Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.02.08 03:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Kary Savage ...make t2 cheaper... This one actually made me laugh. <insert nostalgic story about rediculous T2 prices before invention>
Lady Aja Caldari Hannibals Pirates Damnation of Souls	Posted - 2009.02.08 04:57:00 - [15] Edited by: Lady Aja on 08/02/2009 04:57:08 Originally by: Kusum Fawn I am a moron who has no idea what i am talking about as far as invention/t2 bpo's are concerned... t2 bpo = can only make 1 item per cycle.. Invention = can make as many t2 items as they have bpc's which if done by invention can be a serious amount. so in many ways invention has a superior hand... so what if a bpo can research thier bpo.. it aint producing anythign while they do.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.02.08 05:01:00 - [16] They should just remove all the t2 BPOs and let invention be used for t2.
Illiya Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.02.08 05:58:00 - [17] It's already been said, but at the moment blueprints aren't the bottleneck causing prices to be high, it's the availability of t2 materials (moon products). Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Illiya It's already been said, but at the moment blueprints aren't the bottleneck causing prices to be high, it's the availability of t2 materials (moon products). Tell me about it, BoB implodes and antimatter reactor units go up 30k each overnight. Also in my opinion the best option would be to have a controlled amount of invention jobs accidentally produce originals. A tiny, minuscule chance with each job based on how many already exist or some other relevant factor. Also nthing the fact that removing all T2 BPOs would pretty much destroy the T2 market for everything but a few high demand items.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:10:00 - [19] I would like to see T1 loot pulled from all NPC drop tables. That is what is needed, you do that and we will have something great. Imagine a market that is filled with items sold by players, made by players and bought by players. That would be great!
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:13:00 - [20] I disagree it would level the playing field. Even before the fall of BoB (who really have just reformed and what you see now is speculation on the market....keep in mind none of there moon miners that I know of have been lost yet) it was impossible to invent bpcs and then buy the moon materials to build them. The waste is so high on invented bpcs you can't compete against those with BPOs especially when the majority of them are also the ones running the moon miners. So basically you have a maintained monopoly by a few to which no one else can break into the market. Invention can never compete under current game conditions. You could fix both areas, neither of which would be popular to the current powers. Fixing Moon Minerals 1. You redo how moon mining works. First you reseed the galaxy such that every moon minerals will appear at least once per constellation. You can still weight them from there but they need to all appear in all constellations. and 2. Next you introduce a timed factor when the moons minerals run out and you have to move shop. Probably something like 3-6 months given time and dedication to setting it up. (Note that just because a mineral vein disappears does not mean that the moon will never have it again, it may respawn or something new may spawn on the moon. T2 BPO/BPCs 1. Either eliminate all t2 BPOs and any BPCs made from them. Invention would take the place of these, this would at least in the short term see a rise in t2 prices, but would stabilize probably in a few months as more folks move into research. or 2. Seed new t2 BPOs on the NPC market and allow anyone with enough isk to buy them. This might could be put in faction stores rather than the normal market at the research stations of factions that would have invented them. In this case invention would need to have a new purpose or replaced to help get t3 items.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 08/02/2009 07:19:34 Goddamnit, why do I always read these threads, it's always the same goddamned arguments, usually by the same goddamn people month after month year after year. Bah, may as well. Originally by: Mecinia Lua 2. Seed new t2 BPOs on the NPC market and allow anyone with enough isk to buy them. This might could be put in faction stores rather than the normal market at the research stations of factions that would have invented them. In this case invention would need to have a new purpose or replaced to help get t3 items. Aside from the rest of your post which I won't even begin to discuss, this would completly destroy invention and CCP would have to rebalance a HUGE amount of stuff to compensate. Throwing T2 BPOs on the open market would be the death cry of any inventor, as well as ruining the margins of every T2 producer. The only reason T2 stuff still makes good margins is because of the barriers to entry, and throwing BPOs on the market does away with the barriers. Not to mention T3 already has a path and I'm sure invention has no part in it.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Gamer4liff Goddamnit, why do I always read these threads, it's always the same goddamned arguments, usually by the same goddamn people month after month year after year. Bah, may as well. Originally by: Mecinia Lua 2. Seed new t2 BPOs on the NPC market and allow anyone with enough isk to buy them. This might could be put in faction stores rather than the normal market at the research stations of factions that would have invented them. In this case invention would need to have a new purpose or replaced to help get t3 items. Aside from the rest of your post which I won't even begin to discuss, this would completly destroy invention and CCP would have to rebalance a HUGE amount of stuff to compensate. Throwing T2 BPOs on the open market would be the death cry of any inventor. Not to mention T3 already has a path and I'm sure invention has no part in it. As an inventor it doesn't matter. You can't invent BPCs of t2 items except ammo and actually make money unless you also run your own POS reaction chain. The waste is to high on the invented BPCs especially for ships for you to ever make money. Yeah you can make some isk if you ignore the market cost of datacores, the number of times you fail but still have to pay the cost, and then ignore the market price of moon materials, oh wait....you really can't ignore all that and actually make isk. So basically its just a passtime with a monopoly held by those who held it before invention was released. They just sell their product for less accepting a lesser return per item just to make sure no one can compete with them.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 08:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Mecinia Lua The waste is so high on invented bpcs you can't compete against those with BPOs especially when the majority of them are also the ones running the moon miners. I see you have never really looked your waste materials, especially for modules. For the great majority of modules the waste material is only some base mineral. similarly even a researched BPO gain a reduction for some of the basic minerals. Total difference is often insignificant. For ships the impact is larger as T2 materials are affected, but again the T1 ship and RAM are unaffected, so the difference is way less of what simply looking the ME level make you think.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Mecinia Lua You can't invent BPCs of t2 items except ammo and actually make money unless you also run your own POS reaction chain. The waste is to high on the invented BPCs especially for ships for you to ever make money. Yeah you can make some isk if you ignore the market cost of datacores, the number of times you fail but still have to pay the cost, and then ignore the market price of moon materials, oh wait....you really can't ignore all that and actually make isk. So basically its just a passtime with a monopoly held by those who held it before invention was released. They just sell their product for less accepting a lesser return per item just to make sure no one can compete with them. Wow, you are trying to get a IgNobel in economy? Or are you simply very incompetent? How is that I can easily find invented items that sell at 150% of my production cost (yes, I include datacore costs and price all my produced components at sell price) and you can't find something worth building?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Mecinia Lua You can't invent BPCs of t2 items except ammo and actually make money unless you also run your own POS reaction chain. The waste is to high on the invented BPCs especially for ships for you to ever make money. Yeah you can make some isk if you ignore the market cost of datacores, the number of times you fail but still have to pay the cost, and then ignore the market price of moon materials, oh wait....you really can't ignore all that and actually make isk. So basically its just a passtime with a monopoly held by those who held it before invention was released. They just sell their product for less accepting a lesser return per item just to make sure no one can compete with them. Wow, you are trying to get a IgNobel in economy? Or are you simply very incompetent? How is that I can easily find invented items that sell at 150% of my production cost (yes, I include datacore costs and price all my produced components at sell price) and you can't find something worth building? You can't do it with ships. Not a single ship I've seen you could buy the moon materials off the market and build and sell for what the market is selling them for in which a t2 bpo exists for that ship. I mentioned that you could make money with ammo, and yes a few modules, but for the vast majority of stuff inventions a joke.... It's nice how you feel you have to insult others personally to make yourself feel big. I've spent a lot of time crunching the numbers though, and there is no way ships for which a t2 bpo exists can be invented and sold for market value. (For example not counting datacores and data cryptors it cost about 140-150 million to build a Zealot, while they sell for around 110 million, same with the Purifier...costs 19-20 million to build but sell for 7-9 million). The only ships you can invent and make money on are the ones that never had BPOs....the Marauders and Black Ops, and even then it is not easy to do so because to many people count their time as nothing, such that someone doing their own POS reactions will always be able to undersell the pure researcher/builder because they treat the moon minerals as free, same with the researcher who gets his own datacores then ignores the cost of them thinking they are free...
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:34:00 - [26] let invention rmake federation megathrons please
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:35:00 - [27] Originally by: bff Jill let invention rmake federation megathrons please I'd be alright with that, allow it do faction ships. But they'd need to introduce more faction ships I think.
Hopey Gallente L.O.S.T. Industries	Posted - 2009.02.08 09:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Mecinia Lua You can't invent BPCs of t2 items except ammo and actually make money unless you also run your own POS reaction chain. sorry, but are you serious? i've made over a billion net in the last week from T2 invention/production for a relatively small amount of input. Originally by: Mecinia Lua The waste is to high on the invented BPCs especially for ships for you to ever make money. ok, this is absolutely true. i've only gone as far as inventing cruiser BPC's but it makes me significantly less than mods. \|~~~~~~~~~~~\| Hopey CEO & Founder, L.O.S.T. Industries \|~~~~\|
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.08 10:05:00 - [29] Originally by: bff Jill let invention rmake federation megathrons please Why stop there? Why not allow invention of Arby launchers for example? Can see some profit there ;0 I say this tongue in cheek as after running the numbers, I don't see myself ever being an inventor, it looks more boring than mining Veld with an alt.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:50:00 - [30] Adding any more T2 BPOs will kill invention. A profession that turns over hundreds of billions of isk weekly. I can see some people's argument for removing T2 BPOs, even though I think they are wrong. Adding more will simply be destructive for everyone and the game as a whole. Invention is competing against invention and other items, it isn't competing against T2 BPOs. If you increase the supply of the BPOs it quite possibly could be, and then all the whining might actually be true. Not to mention the more difficult something is, the more profit there is, for everyone. Make it easy, and everyone will just do it themselves. T3 is unlikely to affect the T2 market at all. Maybe the faction market, not T2.

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