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Getting more people into lowsec and 0.0

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echohead	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:51:00 - [1] So many people complain about highsec carebear mission runners and miners. But what choice do these people have? I am in a small non-allied corp and it is almost impossible for me to get into 0.0 and do anything. Even lowsec is kinda a roll of the dice if you run into a blob on some gate or not. So these carebears do what they can to make ISK the only way they can. I know highsec is where I go after losing a few t2 ships in lowsec. A corpmate and I were talking about what would happen if they lowered the payouts for highsec missions and bounties, or nerfed highsec mining in some way. But that would not really change much because those people still wouldn't be able to do much in lowsec. I suggest making lowsec gates easier to get by. Perhaps making it so you warp to a random safespot in system instead of the offramp right in good ganking range. Then to give piracy a chance they could remove warp to zero on lowsec gates (the empire doesn't map lowsec as well after all )
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:57:00 - [2] those fixes fail... the truth is, there is no way to increase lowsec activity by carebears without changing what low sec is. You erduce highsec missions, they just keep doing them with lower payouts. Nerf mining, mine til the roids are gone then wait til respawn. As long as you can be gate ganked or belt ganked or scanned out in your mission in lowsec without the fear of concord the bears won't go. And you don't put concord in lowsec or it isn't concord. One suggestion I had that still keeps Concord out of lowsec is to keep those big bad red flashies out too. You are -10.0, no lowsec for you. -9.0, you can go .1 systems. -8.0, you can go .2 systems. In conjunstion with this, roaming faction navy ships at gates and belts for 'security' actions against ebil piwates. Not Concrd WTFPWNBBQ sauce ships, just a small fleet of faction navies that should be there pretecting their claimed soverign space from criminals. It wouldn't make things that much more appealing to bears, but would keep -10's from perma camping gates in .4 systems. Occasionally they'd have to return to null to grind some sec status back up.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:00:00 - [3] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/02/2009 21:05:38 Originally by: Sun Clausewitz One suggestion I had that still keeps Concord out of lowsec is to keep those big bad red flashies out too. You are -10.0, no lowsec for you. -9.0, you can go .1 systems. -8.0, you can go .2 systems. This "fix" turns Eve into carebears online, and I only define carebears as risk-averse players (which does not inherently include industrialists or traders.) You can get to -10 (or -9-point-something) in one day of pod killing. The only actual way to get people to go to Low Sec is to aggressively prod them to go there in the name of industrial profits, by removing most of the asteroids in 0.5+, and by removing all meta 0 mission loot. But as soon as anyone makes this suggestion people swarm in with cries of "but you can't force me to adopt that playstyle"... even though nobody is. They can still stick to High Sec and watch their production rates dwindle amidst the decline in available High Sec resources.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:04:00 - [4] ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
John Hollow Minmatar Afterisk	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:05:00 - [5] They did make a lot of the gates easier with the latest patch. Certain choke points now have larger gates, so your chances of jumping right next to an enemy are decrease. Anyway, 0.0 is a different ballgame, but anyone should be able to go through low sec without problems. Just fit some warp stabs and warp to zero. I've never been caught with warp stabs on in low sec (except the time I only had one mounted). As long as your ship can hold out until you warp align you are fine. They can't make bubbles in low sec...
ebonyivory	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:06:00 - [6] Ccp has already hinted at bringing 0.0 rats into low sec which will help abit i mean there wil be some people willing to risk their ships to getthat extra 10mil an hour or w/e
John Hollow Minmatar Afterisk	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Khemul Zula Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. My sentiments as well...but as long as new people are playing, there will be the same questions coming up. Part of the territory. Also to add, people NEED to get blown up a lot in eve. Otherwise, how would we keep selling things?
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Insa Rexion on 10/02/2009 21:11:42 Originally by: Sun Clausewitz those fixes fail... the truth is, there is no way to increase lowsec activity by carebears without changing what low sec is. You erduce highsec missions, they just keep doing them with lower payouts. Nerf mining, mine til the roids are gone then wait til respawn. As long as you can be gate ganked or belt ganked or scanned out in your mission in lowsec without the fear of concord the bears won't go. And you don't put concord in lowsec or it isn't concord. One suggestion I had that still keeps Concord out of lowsec is to keep those big bad red flashies out too. You are -10.0, no lowsec for you. -9.0, you can go .1 systems. -8.0, you can go .2 systems. In conjunstion with this, roaming faction navy ships at gates and belts for 'security' actions against ebil piwates. Not Concrd WTFPWNBBQ sauce ships, just a small fleet of faction navies that should be there pretecting their claimed soverign space from criminals. It wouldn't make things that much more appealing to bears, but would keep -10's from perma camping gates in .4 systems. Occasionally they'd have to return to null to grind some sec status back up. A serious nerf of mining and missions (ie limit the number of level 4s given per day and make missioners bid for the jobs) would foster competition between corps in hisec and actually make hisec wars be about something other than easy kills for pvpers/pirates. The concord mechanics would still protect noob corps, but the resulting conflicts would bring the two extreme playstyles of EvE (bears and pvp) much closer together, most likely encouraging a greater amount of movement between hi/low/null sec. In conjunction with your sec status suggestions I could see a much greater habitation of losec (bears with survival pvp experience would fear losec much less) and far less isk grinding corps in hisec. of course it could all go horribly wrong and 95% of all hisec bears would run to NPC corps
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:08:00 - [9] Edited by: Liz Laser on 10/02/2009 21:13:09 Face it, the vast majority of players feel that NPCs and even asteroids are generally more enjoyable as opponents than having other players as opponents. Certainly one gets fairer fights versus NPCs. At least NPCs don't sit cloaked waiting for a fight they can't possibly lose before uncloaking. :-) Convincing people to come out to low sec is an uphill battle because the average player would hope for something approximating a fair fight. Instead, they find cloaked cowards and blobs. Then they go back to high sec.
Nemisis Strife	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:13:00 - [10] Originally by: John Hollow anyone should be able to go through low sec without problems. Just fit some warp stabs and warp to zero. I've never been caught with warp stabs on in low sec (except the time I only had one mounted). As long as your ship can hold out until you warp align you are fine. They can't make bubbles in low sec... Yeah, you're totally safe while aligning... unless they have a heavy interdictor with a sensor booster, right?
Alowishus the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:16:00 - [11] Originally by: ebonyivory Ccp has already hinted at bringing 0.0 rats into low sec which will help abit Something to do with my alt whilst I gatecamp.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: ebonyivory Ccp has already hinted at bringing 0.0 rats into low sec which will help abit Something to do with my alt whilst I gatecamp. This
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:20:00 - [13] there are ways to get carebears into low-sec but they'll always be unpopular. as others have said, you can nerf mission payouts/mining/<insert idea> in Empire and people will still stay there, as they are flat-out scared of being attacked by pirates at gates before they even get anywhere, regardless of if that's the truth about low-sec or not. i think adding faction BS's to low-sec is definitely a step in the right direction, but i think a LOT more people would go there if - and this'll be shouted down in seconds - CONCORD provided protection AT the gates to prevent gatecamps. no matter what any pirate wants to say about it, being caught in a gatecamp in low-sec turns people off instantly. if people could get into low-sec without issue and have a reason to go there - higher end L4 missions (not L5 missions), better asteroids to mine, better rats to kill - i think they'd be more willing to put up with taking the risks of pirates scanning them down and chasing them. \|+ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ +\|
echohead	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:20:00 - [14] "Just fit some warp stabs and warp to zero. I've never been caught" Johnny meet your nemesis the sensor boosted onyx. I think gate camps are the single worst thing about eve. They take zero skill to conduct and really give to much power to the larger corps. I think gatecamps should be able to keep a massive mixed fleet of subcaps from invading alliance space. Not for small blobs to keep individuals out. Several people have said that you cannot really get players to go into lowsec, and that my fixes were fail. But seriously if you could get by gate camps easier I would be in lowsec all the time.
Clever Drake Minmatar The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:22:00 - [15] There was an idea a while ago (and this is not mine, but I am too lazy to look up the thread) where someone suggested lowering taxes on sold items in low sec. Since Concord isn't there, why do you still have to pay them? Again not my idea, but one I support 100%.
Mara Alexys Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:24:00 - [16] Edited by: Mara Alexys on 10/02/2009 21:26:05 as a newbie and according to my gamestyle: 1.Little I can do starting fresh... mission run or mining ; given that running missions I need to train salvage anyway, I could as well to "2" 2.Set up an alt on the same account (yes I am aware that I lose time on my "main"), and spend the time training straight for mining barge aka Retriever while mining . Reason is to have a somewhat "decent starting" money to train main. Although it might not be the "vet optimal" way of doing things, it is my choice as a way of making money to fund a future PvP char, since I am not THAT dellusional to think that I can PvP with crap skills and no money given that I WILL get blown up plenty of times ; I could apply to a Corporation but seeing the Forums full of "bait newbies" Corps I will have to "prove myself" to a more known and established Corp. All is well and dandy for the ones that don`t need to make money, but for me every little I can make gets me closer to what I want which is PvP ; nerfing high sec would prolongue my time "carebearing" to acheive my goal. Only my subjective point of view
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Sun Clausewitz One suggestion I had that still keeps Concord out of lowsec is to keep those big bad red flashies out too. You are -10.0, no lowsec for you. -9.0, you can go .1 systems. -8.0, you can go .2 systems. This "fix" turns Eve into carebears online, and I only define carebears as risk-averse players (which does not inherently include industrialists or traders.) Why do the empires drop these huge stations and gates but then let killers and pirates sit at them all day and night? Theres a bank in a town. All day every day there a half dozen or so muggers that just stand around the exit waiting for people to walk out or in and mug them. No one calls the cops the bank does nothing to protect their buisness. Guess what happens? People stop coming to that bank. Some roaming faction navy patrols would be nice down there. But they only save people they like. If your sec status is to low they will shoot you at will. Boo hoo if your ganker cant enter those systems because youve neglacted your rep. If I want to run missions in a different area or get any respect from the different factions I gotta make sure Im keeping my rep up so why should it be any different for you?Youve been killing their citizens and employees so why shouldnt it be different? Pirates always bring the risk vs reward argument to the table and love to talk about how your choices in EVE have some sort of effect yet the faction can absolutly hate you and still let you roam free in their space? Why shouldnt you be forced to do a little work? Youll still have your alts to run you ships from safer space. Put some roaming faction navies out there (not concord) If they dont like either of the parties involved they leave you alone. If they like the both of you they leave you alone. Rework it so pirates can set up bubbles in warplanes to catch people off guard but not around celestial objects. Maybe even able to catch some NPC convoys that have some decent loot depending on the sec status. Make it so people can point in a direction and warp off (why are we so limited to where we can go) Put some kind of loiter mechanic in so the evil people cant just sit and camp the entrances so newbs can feel safer coming in. A noob is still going to get caught and thats who you guys love to hunt. The experianced player is unlikely to get caught now a days at a low sec gate camp or in system while their doing their business. I live in low sec and maybe just maybe I loose 1 ship a week. Thats 1 ship I dont want to lose. I get plenty of other ships blown up but thats when I am out looking for fights. Let people hire some NPC mercs to give them the illusion of safety but at the same time try to add in a way that a pirate can hire pirate mercs from the pirate factions. Id like to see more people in low sec and add some realism to it. As its stands my company down there is mostly mouth breathing pirates foaming at the mouth looking for the easy kill mail and they have little to no risk. Ya I freaking said it your only risk comes from your own type of player. Maybe their not all good ideas maybe none at all. But damn its pretty easy to be a killer and to get away with it down there. If you want to live outside the empires laws then you should be punished by those same faction you've some to **** off.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:34:00 - [18] Originally by: echohead I am in a small non-allied corp and it is almost impossible for me to get into 0.0 and do anything. This is a common perception that simply isn't true. I am with a small (8 member) corp that is unaffiliated with any alliance. We operate primarily in deep 0.0 and often within territory that some NBSI alliance or another claims as thier own. It's a matter of know-how, good scouting, good teamwork, and a bit of experience. Don't believe the big alliances when they say you can't operate out here. It's a myth that allows them maintain near monopolies on space and keeps the "system renting" business running strong. 0.0 space is free space! Power to the independents! ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Taylor timenenzi Why do the empires drop these huge stations and gates but then let killers and pirates sit at them all day and night? Theres a bank in a town. All day every day there a half dozen or so muggers that just stand around the exit waiting for people to walk out or in and mug them. No one calls the cops the bank does nothing to protect their buisness. Guess what happens? People stop coming to that bank. And banks out in middle of nowhere towns in the real world also have insufficient security to keep out the type of thieves unable or unwilling to take on banks in cities. That insufficient security in Eve's case are gate and station guns. They keep the riffraff out but can only inconvenience the big dogs.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar pSyChOTIC CareBears BrightSpark Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:35:00 - [20] Just make gate guns fire on anyone that has a lower than -2.5 security rating by default without needing anyone to engage in criminal activities.
Ana Vyr DB - LJ Industries	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:38:00 - [21] I've lost a couple ships to gatecamps into lowsec areas by my own foolishness. I have zero reason to go back there until I have so much ISK that losing ships is meaningless. Pirates say they want more carebears in lowsec...then they sit on the gates and blow you away when you come in. Have you guys ever read the fable Never Cry Wolf? After a while all the pleas to get more participation start to sound really hollow.
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Taylor timenenzi on 10/02/2009 21:41:37 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Taylor timenenzi Why do the empires drop these huge stations and gates but then let killers and pirates sit at them all day and night? Theres a bank in a town. All day every day there a half dozen or so muggers that just stand around the exit waiting for people to walk out or in and mug them. No one calls the cops the bank does nothing to protect their buisness. Guess what happens? People stop coming to that bank. And banks out in middle of nowhere towns in the real world also have insufficient security to keep out the type of thieves unable or unwilling to take on banks in cities. That insufficient security in Eve's case are gate and station guns. They keep the riffraff out but can only inconvenience the big dogs. Odd becaus I live far out in the country and the cops still come a running if a bank is robbed. Its not the same response some big city bank would get but THERE IS A RESPONSE. Not some stationary minor inconvenience. Even out there the criminals need to run to avoid the consequences of their choice (another thing I see so many pirates preach about carebears need but they themselves dont want to deal with). Im not preaching for a 23/7 super guard force like concord is in high sec but something a little more random.
Alowishus the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:42:00 - [23] I find it highly unlikely that anything could be done to increase the population of lowsec. If you reduce risk then you're making highsec bigger, not populating lowsec. If you increase reward and/or add new and unique content to lowsec then the 0.0 powerhouses will just expand into lowsec. Thankfully, stupid and lazy people will still load their entire hangar into a Badger Mk II and roll it through lowsec AFK. /makes fart noise
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:43:00 - [24] Having level four mission agents in high sec is so counter intuitive to me now. I have been playing another MMO ever since I was given a copy of its latest expansion as an ironic Christmas present. And now it seems obvious to me, you put the best stuff in the most dangerous places. Move the level 4s to NPC claimed 0.0 space and the level 3s to low sec. If Blizzard can get this right, I am sure CCP can.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:47:00 - [25] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/02/2009 21:49:13 Originally by: Ana Vyr I've lost a couple ships to gatecamps into lowsec areas by my own foolishness. I have zero reason to go back there until I have so much ISK that losing ships is meaningless. Pirates say they want more carebears in lowsec...then they sit on the gates and blow you away when you come in. Have you guys ever read the fable Never Cry Wolf? After a while all the pleas to get more participation start to sound really hollow. It's true that some people only want more people in Low Sec for easy gankage, but that's a separate position from what I was taking. I want more risk for more people of every player type, be it through out and out PvP, or station hugging trade wars. Gutting the ISK faucets in High Sec, without removing them completely, and moving most of them to Low accomplishes the following: more ships of all types in Low Sec, meaning 1. more nonconsensual PvP 2. more pirate vs. hired security PvP 3. more pirate vs. angry industrialist PvP more resource wars in High Sec, meaning 1. more declared High Sec wars 2. equal or near-equal access to ISK becomes contested access 3. prices of everything increase, meaning loss means more to everyone, meaning that the current so-called standard of T2 drops down very firmly into the realm of T1, just like old school Eve more profit for the more ruthless members of every profession, and the relegation of the weak to destitution. Tell me this wasn't (and should still be) the most unique feature of Eve since day one, but that the last two years or so the addition of ever increasing CONCORD power and mission profitability put the breaks on this philosophy.
Ana Vyr DB - LJ Industries	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Banana Torres Having level four mission agents in high sec is so counter intuitive to me now. I have been playing another MMO ever since I was given a copy of its latest expansion as an ironic Christmas present. And now it seems obvious to me, you put the best stuff in the most dangerous places. Move the level 4s to NPC claimed 0.0 space and the level 3s to low sec. If Blizzard can get this right, I am sure CCP can. There are no consequences for dying in WoW. I think you have a funny idea of what dangerous means. In WoW, they put the best stuff in places that require a group to get to. Imagine how many folks would go there if you lost all your gear when you got killed?
Rowdy Yates Caldari Redneck Rangers	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:54:00 - [27] Suicide haulers packed with explosives. That'll clear them out of Empire.
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 10/02/2009 21:49:13 Originally by: Ana Vyr I've lost a couple ships to gatecamps into lowsec areas by my own foolishness. I have zero reason to go back there until I have so much ISK that losing ships is meaningless. Pirates say they want more carebears in lowsec...then they sit on the gates and blow you away when you come in. Have you guys ever read the fable Never Cry Wolf? After a while all the pleas to get more participation start to sound really hollow. It's true that some people only want more people in Low Sec for easy gankage, but that's a separate position from what I was taking. I want more risk for more people of every player type, be it through out and out PvP, or station hugging trade wars. Gutting the ISK faucets in High Sec, without removing them completely, and moving most of them to Low accomplishes the following: more ships of all types in Low Sec, meaning 1. more nonconsensual PvP 2. more pirate vs. hired security PvP 3. more pirate vs. angry industrialist PvP more resource wars in High Sec, meaning 1. more declared High Sec wars 2. equal or near-equal access to ISK becomes contested access 3. prices of everything increase, meaning loss means more to everyone, meaning that the current so-called standard of T2 drops down very firmly into the realm of T1, just like old school Eve more profit for the more ruthless members of every profession, and the relegation of the weak to destitution. Tell me this wasn't (and should still be) the most unique feature of Eve since day one, but that the last two years or so the addition of ever increasing CONCORD power and mission profitability put the breaks on this philosophy. I do agree but my biggest worry is if you gut high sec then low sec will become more like 0.0 where large power blocs start to form and it kills it for the smaller corps you cant fight a larger force. I dunno honsetly at this point of the day im to damned tired to be doing anything thinking.
Alowishus the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Banana Torres Move the level 4s to NPC claimed 0.0 space and the level 3s to low sec. Here are the consequences of this: 1) High Sec L4 mission runners would join 0.0 alliances, figure out how to maximize ISK/HR of L2 missions, mine instead or quit. 2) Nobody would do L3 missions.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.10 22:04:00 - [30] Originally by: John Hollow Originally by: Khemul Zula Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. My sentiments as well...but as long as new people are playing, there will be the same questions coming up. Part of the territory. I concur. But CCP really created this rod for their own backs from the start. Now, any wholesale nerfing of highsec gains would spark a mass exodus of many carebears from Eve altogether. I notice certain things have been done in small stages to no avail, (ice, WTZ, bigger regional gates and such), still lowsec remains unpopulated save for the player pirates. Quote: Also to add, people NEED to get blown up a lot in eve. Otherwise, how would we keep selling things? Wars in highsec and existing combat in lowsec and nullsec account for a lot of sales. Players lose ships all the time one way or another, even if it's during mission running. Supply already outweighs demand but not because too few ships are being lost. Most is to do with too many players not feeling confident enough to enter lowsec and NBSI policies which prevent them entering nullsec. What else can they do but manufacture in highsec? This is evident from the lack of market supply in lowsec regions, nobody is willing to risk a 100 million isk ship to try to put it on the market in lowsec. Supplies in lowsec are bad and often this requires players to run the gauntlet in both directions to buy in highsec. When you're talking about a ship purchase, who wants to fly out to highsec and buy it only to have it ganked on the way back home befre you've even had the chance to fit it properly? Nobody is willing to fly to highsec with a cargo of expensive mods to fit it before flying back, the risk is just too great. The only solution really is to allow goods to be assigned to a specific station for sale. People can then manufacture in highsec but market it remotely to a station in lowsec rather than transporting it there first. Not sure how this could be done without the obvious abuse it would create but a viable market needs to be created in lowsec to allow people to replace losses without the problems associated with it. The only other solution is the Interbus idea which has been going around for years now.

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