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Kane Tabor
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Posted - 2009.02.15 19:39:00 -
[1]
I have a tool I use to run the numbers on my T2 BPCs so I know what materials I need to have in stock to produce them, and it's always estimating a bit low for Nanoelectrical Microprocessors for the T2 remote armor reps. It started happening a while back (forget when), so I've always just thrown in a few extra of those items into the hanger. Today I sat down to figure out why.
Here's what I came up with: all the other items that the waste calculations apply to are in category 4, ie. the basic materials (trit, mex, etc.). No other items involved in the production of the T2 modules I'm working with have waste applied to them, except for the Nanoelectrical Microprocessors (at least as far as I can tell).
Now, I can work around this, but it seems odd to me that this one T2 component uses waste and no others (as far as I can tell) -- not even the other materials in group 334 (Construction Components).
Is this a bug, or are Nanoelectrical Microprocessors special in some way? |
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.02.15 20:54:00 -
[2]
I've noticed this on other T2 module BPC's except that it appears to be across the board for all materials except the, additional mins that are calculated to the correct ME level.
Could be a bug, or working as intended, but im not sure.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 04:01:00 -
[3]
It has to do with rounding. Your qty isn't high enough to matter.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark It has to do with rounding. Your qty isn't high enough to matter.
No, there are inputs into T2 building that are simply not subject to wastage, coincidentally, if you refine those items, they're the same ones you don't get back.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.16 13:25:00 -
[5]
The only two things waste is not applied to, as far as I know, are RAMs and the T1 item. There might be more, but... no idea.
Also, rounding is to nearest. So in order to have a base 1 something needed become a 2, you need at least 50.0[...]01% waste.
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:59:00 -
[6]
I do think that the calcs are broken for the BPC. Here is one example
Mag field Stab II, BPO (ME0)
Photon Micro (5) Mechanical Parts (5) Minature Electronics (2)
Mag field Stab II, BPC (ME-4) 50% waste on a BPO. The build requirements per run show as
Photon Micro (5) Mechanical Parts (5) Minature Electronics (2)
When they Should really be
Photon Micro (8) Mechanical Parts (8) Minature Electronics (3)
The Trit, Pyer, Morph, and Nocx calcs are all correctly calculated with a 50% Waste factor.
I've raised a bug report with CCP to make sure this isnt a bug, it also affects other mods as well, these include MAR II's, and LAR II's.
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew
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Posted - 2009.02.19 10:31:00 -
[7]
Being subject to waste isn't an attribute of the material, it is a property of each entry on the blueprint. Each blueprint has 2 categories of materials, raw materials and extra materials. It shows you these two categories in the summary screen when you go to build something.
Anything in the raw materials category is subject to waste, anything in the extra materials category is not. It's that simple. As a general rule Tech II materials for modules are usually considered extra, while for ships they are considered raw. This came as quite a surprise to me as someone who invented and built T2 modules before I got around to ships. I was used to no T2 waste mats and thought it was the norm. My initial vagabond build cost projections were a tad low to say the least .
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.19 13:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Akita T on 19/02/2009 13:43:11
So where exactly in the database dump DO you find the attribute that says wether a material is "raw" or "extra" ?
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
So where exactly in the database dump DO you find the attribute that says wether a material is "raw" or "extra" for each specific blueprint (or item) ? I only ask because I can't find it... or see it but don't realize it's that.
An attribute does not exist but you can determine whether a material is raw or extra by examining table typeActivityMaterials in the data dump.
The data we need to look at is activityID 1 for the blueprintTypeID and activity 6 for the productTypeID that the blueprint in question produces.
A material is raw if the activity 6 qty is greater than or equal to the activty 1 qty.
A material is extra if activity 6 does not exist for the activity 1 typeID.
Ignore any activity 6 typeIDs that don't have an activity 1 counterpart.
Now for the fun part....
In the case of bombs we have minerals that qualify as both raw and extra. Lets look at the Electron Bomb. blueprintTypeID=27921 productTypeID=27920.
typeID=27921 activityID=1 requiredTypeactivityquantity Tritanium 1 1362069 Pyerite 1 623994 Mexallon 1 60231 Isogen 1 9381 Nocxium 1 2370 Zydrine 1 1419 Megacyte 1 365
typeID=27920 activityID=6 requiredTypeactivityquantity Tritanium 6 10000 Pyerite 6 100 Mexallon 6 10 Isogen 6 10 Nocxium 6 10 Zydrine 6 10 Megacyte 6 10 The activity 6 quantities are smaller than the activity 1 quantities. So the activity 6 quantity is classified as raw and the activity 1 quantity minus the activity 6 quantity is classifed as extra. For example...
requireType Quantity Mineral Type Waste Applied? Tritanium 10000 Raw 1 Tritanium 1352069 Extra 0 Pyerite 100 Raw 1 Pyerite 623894 Extra 0 Mexallon 10 Raw 1 Mexallon 60221 Extra 0 Isogen 10 Raw 1 Isogen 9371 Extra 0 Nocxium 10 Raw 1 Nocxium 2360 Extra 0 Zydrine 10 Raw 1 Zydrine 1409 Extra 0 Megacyte 10 Raw 1 Megacyte 355 Extra 0 And in case you don't want to compile your own data here is mine. Fubars_Manufacturing_Data.csv
Hope this helps.
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pwett on 20/02/2009 14:45:58 Back to the original mag stab II problem, there is no activityID 6
select * from typeActivityMaterials where typeID = 10191 and ( activityID = 1 OR activityID = 6) order by activityID
10191134227510 1019113535210 10191138210 1019113380500 1019113689510 1019119842210 1019119944111 10191111399310 10191111452100 10191111453100 1019111148310.150 10191111540510
_______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony Item Database
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Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pwett Edited by: Pwett on 20/02/2009 14:45:58 Back to the original mag stab II problem, there is no activityID 6
Sure there is no activityID 6 for id 10191 (the blueprint) but there is for id 10190 (the finished product).
select * from typeActivityMaterials where (typeID = 10191 or typeID = 10190) and ( activityID = 1 OR activityID = 6) order by activityID
10191134227510 1019113535210 10191138210 1019113380500 1019113689510 1019119842210 1019119944111 10191111399310 10191111452100 10191111453100 1019111148310.150 10191111540510 10190634952010 10190635166510 10190638210 And then how about the Large Remote Armor Repair System II. bpID=26915 product=26914
select * from typeActivityMaterials where (typeID = 26915 or typeID = 26914) and ( activityID = 1 OR activityID = 6) order by activityID 2691513456610 2691513511510 2691513624410 269151373010 2691513380500 2691519848810 26915111359111 26915111399510 26915111442100 26915111452100 2691511147510.20 26915111539410 26914634445210 26914635304510 2691463624510 269146373010 26914611399510 26914611539410 Nanoelectrical Microprocessors are typeID 11539
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pwett on 20/02/2009 15:23:01
hrm, interesting. so for every item we need to look at manufacturing from the blueprint and the duplicating values from the actual product? Which of course you said; it just didn't kick in before my coffee. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony Item Database
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Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.02.20 20:42:00 -
[13]
To to clarify, I did raise a petition, with regard the Mag Field Stab II, and MAR/LAR II issue, and the response i got was that it was working as intended.
Which means, I've been under estimating my profit margins on most things except ships.
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Meha Mott
Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency
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Posted - 2009.02.21 02:01:00 -
[14]
Try 100MN MWD. No wast on that module saves a lot of money if you invent it. Sorry for my bad english. |
Kiay Stryx
Gallente Phoenix Mandate
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Posted - 2009.02.21 03:35:00 -
[15]
Urgh.
~Stryx
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.21 03:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Avalon Champion Which means, I've been under estimating my profit margins on most things except ships.
Not by very much, though
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.02.21 12:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Avalon Champion Which means, I've been under estimating my profit margins on most things except ships.
Not by very much, though
True, 10-20K per item on most mods is probably a good estimate.
Stupid question, i know, but where do i find information on the data dumps and API calls, as im planning on putting together a Db that loads all material costs, and keeps a history so i can track changes and spot trends.
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Kane Tabor
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Posted - 2009.03.27 03:47:00 -
[18]
Assuming Fubar's post (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=999934&page=1#9) was correct at the time, I think the formula may have changed in Apocrypha, or else I'm just not getting it. Let's look at Trit usage for the Electron Bomb: blueprintTypeID=27921 productTypeID=27920 (Trit is typeID=34)
From the Apocrypha data export: select * from typeActivityMaterials where typeID=27921 and activityID=1 and requiredTypeID=34 select * from typeActivityMaterials where typeID=27920 and activityID=6 and requiredTypeID=34
Input Trit is 1362069, recycle amount is 10000. By Fubar's formula, there should be waste on 10000 of it, and no waste on the other 1352069. At ME 0 (10% waste: 1000), that should yield a construction amount of 1363069. However, the real construction amount is 1498276, which is exactly the amount predicted if the waste applies to the entire input amount (ME 0: 10% waste: 136207).
So, here's the question: am I misunderstanding Fubar's formula, was it always wrong, or did Apocrypha change it?
Here's a quick list of some of the affected blueprints and the material types on them affected: Many T2 Missiles: Rocket Fuel Depleted Uranium XL: Trit/Pyer Discovery/Gaze Probes: Trit/Pyerite/Mex ECCM Projector II: Morphite Gas Cloud Harvester I: Trit/Pyer/Mex Gyrostabilizer II: Morphite Heat Sink II: Morphite Mercoxit Mining Crystal II: Nocx Tracking Computer II: Morphite Tracking Link I: Trit/Pyer/Mex/Iso Warp Core Stabilizer II: Morphite |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.27 07:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kane Tabor So, here's the question: am I misunderstanding Fubar's formula, was it always wrong, or did Apocrypha change it?
To be honest, that's what I'd like to know too _ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Fubar on 27/03/2009 15:26:59
Originally by: Kane Tabor So, here's the question: am I misunderstanding Fubar's formula, was it always wrong, or did Apocrypha change it?
Basically it comes down to you can't trust the show info bill of materials.
See Linkage. The picture shows the show info window next to the quote window.
The bp does still requires 1363069 (1352069+10000+1000) of trit per batch on a ML0 bp.
Edit: Corrected the last line.
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.03.27 16:23:00 -
[21]
Aye Fubar's formula is indeed still correct. Ignore show info for specific values. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database |
Kane Tabor
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Posted - 2009.03.27 17:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fubar Basically it comes down to you can't trust the show info bill of materials.
Odd. Though I can't say I'm surprised the algorithm in one place in the game is wrong -- it's quite a bit more complicated than one would think it should be.
Thanks for the confirmation Fubar -- I had just been relying on the show info window -- I never thought to see if the quote window matched it. |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.04.25 00:47:00 -
[23]
Nice one dude, I think you just saved my upcoming spreadsheet.
Gonna use this to make my own sensible build table.
DROP TABLE IF EXISTS myTam; CREATE TABLE myTam ( typeID smallint(6) NOT NULL, requiredTypeID smallint(6) NOT NULL, quantity int(11) NOT NULL, damagePerJob double NOT NULL, recycle tinyint(1) NOT NULL, extra int(11) NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY (typeID,requiredTypeID), KEY requiredTypeID (requiredTypeID) ) ENGINE=MyISAM DEFAULT CHARSET=utf8;
INSERT INTO myTam SELECT t.typeID, t.requiredTypeID, t.quantity, t.damagePerJob, t.recycle , 0 FROM typeactivitymaterials t WHERE t.activityID = 1 AND t.damagePerJob > 0;
UPDATE myTam m , invblueprinttypes b set m.extra = m.quantity, m.quantity = 0 where b.blueprinttypeid = m.typeid and NOT EXISTS (select * from typeactivitymaterials where typeactivitymaterials.typeid = b.producttypeid and typeactivitymaterials.activityid = 6 );
UPDATE myTam m , invblueprinttypes b, typeactivitymaterials t set m.extra = m.quantity - t.quantity, m.quantity = t.quantity where b.blueprinttypeid = m.typeid and t.typeid = b.producttypeid and t.activityid = 6 and t.requiredtypeid = m.requiredtypeid and t.quantity < m.quantity;
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Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.28 04:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Fubar ...you can determine whether a material is raw or extra by examining table typeActivityMaterials in the data dump.
The data we need to look at is activityID 1 for the blueprintTypeID and activity 6 for the productTypeID that the blueprint in question produces.
How do you square this with types such as the Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate (typeID 11545, blueprintTypeID 17323)? 11545 has no entries in the typeActivityMaterials table, but I can confirm that both of the types required to build it are affected by waste. Kane Tabor's idea of basing it on category 4 is good, and perhaps better than what I was doing (individually assigning all the composites to be base instead of extra), but I'm a little bit uncomfortable with just mangling the data like that.
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Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Epitrope How do you square this with types such as the Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate (typeID 11545, blueprintTypeID 17323)? 11545 has no entries in the typeActivityMaterials table, but I can confirm that both of the types required to build it are affected by waste. Kane Tabor's idea of basing it on category 4 is good, and perhaps better than what I was doing (individually assigning all the composites to be base instead of extra), but I'm a little bit uncomfortable with just mangling the data like that.
Good point.
After you use the previous method you run an update query that updates the waste on the Construction Components and Advanced Capital Construction Components blueprints.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:33:00 -
[26]
I found that applying the rule of fubar works. But only apply it if there exists at least one T.a.m.6 for the product being considered.
This stops component items becoming all extra material. |
Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.29 10:03:00 -
[27]
I looked at a few more items on the test server, and have refined the rule somewhat.
First, what I'm talking about here are blueprints whose products have no activityID=6 entries in the typeActivityMaterials table. This is to try to figure out which of the materials for these blueprints are affected by waste, because the data seems not to be in the database export.
The category=4 rule does not always work: the new T3 component blueprints require materials, but they are not affected by waste. See, for example, Electromechanical Interface Nexus
Also, it's not only composites that are left out, minerals seem to occasionally be affected too: Mobile Medium Warp Disruptor I
Based on this, I'm going to say that if a blueprint's product has no activity 6 data, all the composites (groupID=429) and all the minerals (groupID=18) are affected by waste. However, this may still be inaccurate. I'm only spot checking likely candidates, so I might have missed something, and I'm checking these on sisi (build 87385), which might have different data. Corrections welcome...
How does this look?
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Shawn Gallentino
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Posted - 2009.05.15 00:49:00 -
[28]
Wow, All of this complexity and I still have questions. This one is simple though. At which point in the madness does the Assembly's material modifier take effect? Does it take effect prior to the material mat (i.e. Base Material * Assembly Mod) or is it after (Final Material * Assembly Mod).
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Qoi
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Posted - 2009.05.15 21:10:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Qoi on 15/05/2009 21:10:00
Originally by: Shawn Gallentino Wow, All of this complexity and I still have questions. This one is simple though. At which point in the madness does the Assembly's material modifier take effect? Does it take effect prior to the material mat (i.e. Base Material * Assembly Mod) or is it after (Final Material * Assembly Mod).
It doesn't matter? Linkage
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Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.16 01:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Qoi Edited by: Qoi on 15/05/2009 21:10:00 It doesn't matter? Linkage
It does matter slightly, because at the end you have to round to the nearest unit. If you round to an int before multiplying by the assembly line's bonus you'll get subtly wrong amounts. You need to include the assembly line multiplier at the same time as skill waste and ML waste:
Quote: if (ML >= 0){ return runs * int(0.5 + qty * (1.0 + (.25 - .05 * PE) + (curItemWasteFactor/100.0) / (1.0 + ML) + (lineMaterialBonus - 1.0) )); }else{ return runs * int(0.5 + qty * (1.0 + (.25 - .05 * PE) + (curItemWasteFactor/100.0) * (1.0 - ML) + (lineMaterialBonus - 1.0) )); }
(sorry for the appearance of that, it's all lined up prettily but there seems not to be a <pre> or equivalent for me to wrap it in)
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Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.17 22:03:00 -
[31]
I have created a set queries to use in the program Microsoft SQL Server Management Studio Express to create a manufacturing build requirements table that properly identifies which materials require waste calculations.
The table is accurate as far as I know. Comments, corrections, and suggestions are welcome.
Apocrypha_1.1.0.86756_db_CreateBuildReqs.zip
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Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.17 22:07:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shawn Gallentino Wow, All of this complexity and I still have questions. This one is simple though. At which point in the madness does the Assembly's material modifier take effect? Does it take effect prior to the material mat (i.e. Base Material * Assembly Mod) or is it after (Final Material * Assembly Mod).
I use the following logic to determine waste per run. If bpMaterialLevel >= 0 Then wasteMod = ((wasteFactor/100) / (bpMaterialLevel + 1)) Else wasteMod = (-bpMaterialLevel + 1) / 10 End If SkillBonus = 1.25 - (0.05 * CharSkillLevel) StationBonus = StationMaterialModifier - 1 BPMLWaste = BaseMaterialReq * wasteMod SkillWaste = BaseMaterialReq * (SkillBonus - 1) StationWaste = BaseMaterialReq * (SkillBonus * StationBonus) Waste = Round(BPMLWaste + SkillWaste + StationWaste, 0)
You should make sure you are not using bankers rounding(ie Round-to-even method).
The required materials would then be (BaseMaterialReq + Waste) * Runs
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.18 15:48:00 -
[33]
How do you know if Excel is using Bankers rounding and how do you stop it doing so?
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.18 17:32:00 -
[34]
Can anyone provide the access version of the SQL needed to create a cross table view that has activity 1 items then activity 6 items running across the top line?
Why does it have to be so darn complicated?
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Fubar
Eagle Eye Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.19 12:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush How do you know if Excel is using Bankers rounding and how do you stop it doing so?
The round function in Excel workbooks uses the proper rounding method (Asymmetric Arithmetic Rounding or Round-Half-Up).
The round function in Excel and Access VBA uses bankers rounding.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.19 13:45:00 -
[36]
Just got the numbers but they're reporting differently to what they should be presented as, I'm currently downloading the 1.2 apoc access datadump version to see if they've changed it again, if so and the numbers are correct as reported then I'll be able to figure out the formulaes for calculating waste.
I've never added in a station modifier at all, and that'll be just a cell you enter 1 or 0 into, annoying though, as people may be building items at multiple stations with and without the bonus modifier.
Thankfully it won't take too long to update the data I already have on the spreadsheet, at least I hope it won't.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:32:00 -
[37]
Select Distinct helped.
It would be very very useful if it could be turned into a crosstable query with the activity 1 and 6 materials side by side
That way the formulae becomes activity 1+(activity 6+waste), where all the waste requirements are calculated by activity 6 amount.
But I'm sure that's not right? EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:29:00 -
[38]
Yeah!! done it in a crosstable query.
Just so that I know, the waste calculation is applied to the activity 6 numbers if they're the same or below the Activity 1 numbers, if activity 6 is higher than what do we do?
Should I assume that activity 6 is present in all cases?
What a pita.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Knitted Character
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Posted - 2009.05.21 16:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Yeah!! done it in a crosstable query.
Just so that I know, the waste calculation is applied to the activity 6 numbers if they're the same or below the Activity 1 numbers, if activity 6 is higher than what do we do?
Should I assume that activity 6 is present in all cases?
What a pita.
I don't think you need to do anything. Activity 6 will be greater than activity 1 for Tech 2 items most of the time, since you need to factor in the tech 1 item materials that go into the Tech 2 item as a component.
EG - it takes 194 Tritanium to make a Gyrostabilizer II (with 0 waste). If you reprocess a Gyrostabilizer II you'll get 194 Tritanium PLUS the 696 Tritanium from the Gyrostabilizer I used in it's creation. For the Gyro II, the activity 1 value for material 34 (Trit) is 194, but the activity 6 value is 890 (194+696).
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Shawn Gallentino
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Posted - 2009.05.24 15:05:00 -
[40]
Than you fubar
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.25 07:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Knitted Character
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Yeah!! done it in a crosstable query.
Just so that I know, the waste calculation is applied to the activity 6 numbers if they're the same or below the Activity 1 numbers, if activity 6 is higher than what do we do?
Should I assume that activity 6 is present in all cases?
What a pita.
I don't think you need to do anything. Activity 6 will be greater than activity 1 for Tech 2 items most of the time, since you need to factor in the tech 1 item materials that go into the Tech 2 item as a component.
EG - it takes 194 Tritanium to make a Gyrostabilizer II (with 0 waste). If you reprocess a Gyrostabilizer II you'll get 194 Tritanium PLUS the 696 Tritanium from the Gyrostabilizer I used in it's creation. For the Gyro II, the activity 1 value for material 34 (Trit) is 194, but the activity 6 value is 890 (194+696).
When it comes to manufacturing however, it's only applied IF activity6<=activity 1,(equal to or less than) otherwise, it's the normal calculation for waste (where waste is applied of course) - not on t1 items as part of the t2 ingredient.
What I'm wondering though is what do you do with negative activity 1 numbers, ahhh but of course, that would be the units required to make the T1 ingredient right, and NOT what you get out of the t2 item when refining (activity 6).
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
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