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Lanissum
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:05:00 -
[1]
This is just a straight copy from my pirate blog,http://www.yarr-yum.bogspot.com, thought you guys might be interested in it:
Many people complain about the inherent advantage older players get than newer ones, because there is basically no way for a newer char to get more skill points than an equal char.
Proponents of the current skill system claim (with a good degree of truth) that newer players can become just as proficient as any older player at doing any one thing, but that older players are just proficient at more things.
As I sit here, typing this up, I haven't really played much EvE for the past week or so. This is mainly because I'm waiting for Amarr Cruiser V to finally finish (5 days from now) and let me fly the Curse (Neuting from 30km away? Hell yah)
Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise. That way is by purchasing a character (for a large isk sum) from somebody else made. I don't really like this 'solution', namely because it requires that you literally become an older player. As I sit on 4 billion + isk, I don't really want to buy an Uber PvP char (which probably costs 10b +) because I've invested over a year into Lanissum.
Instead, I'd like to suggest a few alternatives to purchasing an entire new character. 1. Instead of transfering the purchased character, the new character's skills (and assets, etc) are merged with yours, and the new character ceases to exist.
Pros: You get your SP's, they get their ISK, CCP gets more disk space, you don't have to trash your precious main.
Cons: Can't really think of any, although if you change your mind, it's not like you can just resell the char. (Well, you could, but then you'd basically be doing the same thing I'm trying to avoid here)
2. Instead of buying a character, you buy individual skills (pay x isk to finish a currently training skill now). The exchange rate would probably have to make it more expensive than buying a new char (I think that rate is about 200mil ISK/mil SP, so maybe 250m ISK/SP?)
Pros: You get exactly what you want, right now, instant gratification.
Cons: CCP doesn't get their $14 fee (kinda lame, since all they do is a quick database manipulation -_-)
3. Instead of buying a character, you pay to increase your training rate for a certain amount of time (or SP). Similar to the current noob 'x2 training bonus until 1.6 mil SP'
Pros: You get what you want.
Cons: If you just want to finish a skill NOW, too bad. And you better have a plan for all that extra 'bonus training' if you don't want to waste it.
I most prefer #2, although #3 would do in a pinch (namely because it's 'already implemented'). I especially like the idea of being able to actually catch up to older players without becoming one of them.
What do you think?
-sig-
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:07:00 -
[2]
inb4 ****storm
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:10:00 -
[3]
Within 6 months or less you can be just as good in a single area as a player who played during the beta. Those who complain about it are not welcome here as they lack focus and patience. Wait what you say? Patience? Focus? FFS I pay to play this game for enjoyment!!!! you say. Well yes you do play for enjoyment along with the rest of us but what we consider enjoyment would cause a lesser mmo player to emorage cut himself. Yes, welcome to eve.
Originally by: Vaden Khale He's doing the moonwalk in HEE-hee-hell.
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Blastrodamus
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:11:00 -
[4]
there is a separate forum for this kind of junk... features and ideas. i suggest you check it out.
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Armoured C
Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:12:00 -
[5]
csnt stand of this BS about player not being able to catch up. There is a video of 2 brand new pilots piloting rifters killing BS and all sorts in CVA space.
the older you are just means you can fly more ships use more weapons.
everyone is constrained to level 5's
doesn't matter if you a 09 or a 05 player
you can still be ganked
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Leviathan9
Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:23:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Leviathan9 on 19/07/2009 01:25:16 People seem to forget that "older" players started off as the "newer" player.. if the "newer" players want to catch up then they'll do so by putting in the amount the hours "older" players did and skill up in the same amount of time (give or take) as the "older" players did.. People just want a game where they can be uber good and have everything from the start. ---------------------------
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Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:33:00 -
[7]
An "Old" player, can create a new char, and within a few months, be a force to be rekoned with on the field of battle.
You know how I know? I've seen it done. You'd be suprised how many people have a Pirate, or faction warfare, or other pvp char that has under 7 months in game.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:40:00 -
[8]
I have an 03 alt you can buy if you want. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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No Homo
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:40:00 -
[9]
Cry more noob
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temponita
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Posted - 2009.07.19 02:42:00 -
[10]
Ya but all the old players are just that OLD! Slow reflexes, poor eyesight, difficulties urinating etc.
Enjoy your youth!
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Lakai Balthasar
Caldari Cool Ninjas of Awesome Ownage
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Posted - 2009.07.19 03:14:00 -
[11]
Really, none of this WoW "I play a month and catch up with everyone else crap". Thank you very much. :)
__________________________________ The End Always Justifies The Means |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.07.19 03:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Wendat Huron on 19/07/2009 03:54:09 I think we've seen this topic too many times on this forum. Why don't you read them some and suffer like we do then post? Instead of coming here without reading about the last guy with the topic we strung up on a lightpole.
Delenda est achura. |
Lanissum
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 03:55:00 -
[13]
Well, I think most of the time when people complain about this, their issue isn't that they 'have to be patient' but rather this:
You start a char in '03. In 09, you're an excellent (SP wise) pvp char, who can proficiently fly any t1 ship, and most t2 ships. Some1 starts a char in '09. In '15 the newer char can also proficiently fly any t1 ship and most t2 ships. But by this time, the '03 char can also fly capitals too.
By the time the '09 char masters capitals, the '03 char has mastered yet more things. Currently, there is no way for the '09 char to ever catch up to the '03 char, short of buying said '03 char.
In my particular case, I'm getting pretty close to 'almost maxed' out pvp skills for frigs-cruisers t1 & t2. After that, I'll start the series of level V's that I'll need to *actually* be maxed out (Rapid Fire V, Surgical Strike V, Drone Interface V, etc etc) [They're all at IV right now]
You guys complain about some1 who starts EvE, and a month later has more SP than you being unfair... well, there's not much stopping that char from just buying an '03 char (except isk, but trust me, isk is easy to come by). My particular axe to grind is that I *don't* want to buy a new char, and toss Lanissum aside. I want to be able keep Lanissum, and get the benefits I otherwise would by buying a different character, namely, gaining a bunch of SP for isk.
-sig-
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.07.19 03:59:00 -
[14]
You put the time in you get the advantage. 03 pilot can't be in the command ship and carrier at the same time, he may have the luxury to choose, you go with the command ship you specced for. You in time will have to choose too as you can't be in two places at once either, what is the problem really?
From what I can see here you fail at logic.
Delenda est achura. |
Lakai Balthasar
Caldari Cool Ninjas of Awesome Ownage
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lanissum Currently, there is no way for the '09 char to ever catch up to the '03 char, short of buying said '03 char.
And you see this thing as bad because?
__________________________________ The End Always Justifies The Means |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Wendat Huron on 19/07/2009 04:10:30
Originally by: Lakai Balthasar
Originally by: Lanissum Currently, there is no way for the '09 char to ever catch up to the '03 char, short of buying said '03 char.
And you see this thing as bad because?
He is a paying customer and he demands to be treated with respect and get the full endgame service now!
Way to go btw making the text to all gay italics.
Delenda est achura. |
Lanissum
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:12:00 -
[17]
No, my logic, in it's most distilled form:
New guys can buy old guys. I want to buy an old guy, but I don't want to give up my current account. Thus, I was suggesting a few methods where you could either:
Merge old guys with new chars/buy individual skills (though, this seems rather exploitable...)/buy increased training speed(same issues as individual skill buying) -sig-
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Lakai Balthasar
Caldari Cool Ninjas of Awesome Ownage
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:16:00 -
[18]
Sorry Wendat Huron, that was totally my bad about the gay italics... *bow*
__________________________________ The End Always Justifies The Means |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:34:00 -
[19]
There is nothing to discuss or debate; to catch up to someone in EVE you need to compete better. To compete better you do not need a superior character. It certainly helps, but its not even a high priority tool.
If some nublet thinks catching up in skillpoints is important, then so be it. That's why nublets keep crying about sp, because they're too newb to know any better. When was the last time you saw a 70mil sp guy bawling over how he can't catch up to a 90mil sp guy in any serious capacity?
Skillpoints are so meaningless that a small team of experienced players in crap characters can wreck havoc with a group of high sp but inexperienced players, even if their enemy has a supreme numbers and equipment advantage on top. People have been demonstrating this as early as 2004. I still have a video of "the nubtastic nubmen" on my hdd, in which an ATUK alt corp full of 200k sp alts empire war decs one of the top megacorps in the game and schools them.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:36:00 -
[20]
Not to mention, I've actually done that several times throughout my EVE career. The first being against Techell, shortly after being inspired by said video.
Until very recently, I still had that 300k sp caldari alt on my main account ;)
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Michwich
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:02:14 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:00:14 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 04:57:07 Id agree with OP, whether you think its BS or not the perception that this is a old boys club game is very real. Allowing to buy skills which the OP is basically asking isnt any different then how it works already where you buy skills in form of monthly skill training time called a subscription fee. The difference being the time it takes to get these skills and this is where anyone interesting in getting skills in less time would pay a premium.
OP's idea is consistent with what CPP is already doing - selling skills just in a different way. And in principle I agree, but Id much rather you had to work for your skills (grind) than wait and pay for them. But dont fool yourselves, there are many a player who stay away from this game for this very reason and a good number who dont continue playing for the same reasons (including myself).
There has to be some sort of boosting or shortcuts for new players to get ahead or at least give them the perception they can get ahead because when youre hit with a 20+ day skill to train as a new player , purely as a gamer and from a entertainment standpoint, it just doesnt make any sense to be waiting 30 days to be able to progress and expect a player to stay interested... hardly what id call a cliff hanger. This is where the new shortcuts and better boosters come in to help the new player keep up. Not all of us are interested in watching paint dry and many of us are willing to pay for the privilege not to, but you and I both know know that the divide between young and old will eventually grow to a point of ridiculousness that not even the most dishonest of you would defend.
The alternative would be to follow natures model and have the old farts die and rot to fertilize the soil for those that come after them. Server reset could also be in order, you grind your whole existence to collect shiny pieces of matter only to have the matter result back into its original chatoic form including yourself. Nothings forever, niether should your character be.
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Michwich
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Posted - 2009.07.19 04:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 04:59:43 ...
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Esamir
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Michwich there are many a player who stay away from this game for this very reason and a good number who dont continue playing for the same reasons (including myself).
Imaginary reasons.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:08:00 -
[24]
The problem with making changes based on perceptions, is that the perception doesn't necessarily change. Perception is how people see things, not necessarily how things are. Not necessarily based on reality.
The idea that someone playing longer is going to be superior will always be there. No way to dislodge it. I mean hey, this is a game with a 5 level cap on skills, and people still stick to the "I can't catch up!" belief.
Also, GTCs are bad enough. You should not be able to buy your way through this game. Buying ISK and time would just be rediculous. It would create a new perception, that people without money can never catch up with those with money (sort of like people feel about real life ).
"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lanissum
Pros: You get exactly what you want, right now, instant gratification.
Bold portion pretty much sums up the op's desires. Eve != instant gratification. Plain and simple. Now as for...
Quote: What do you think?
I think you should gb2wow.
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Michwich
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:33:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:35:12 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:34:21
Originally by: Khemul Zula The problem with making changes based on perceptions, is that the perception doesn't necessarily change. Perception is how people see things, not necessarily how things are. Not necessarily based on reality.
The idea that someone playing longer is going to be superior will always be there. No way to dislodge it. I mean hey, this is a game with a 5 level cap on skills, and people still stick to the "I can't catch up!" belief.
Also, GTCs are bad enough. You should not be able to buy your way through this game. Buying ISK and time would just be rediculous. It would create a new perception, that people without money can never catch up with those with money (sort of like people feel about real life ).
In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
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TekNikk
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:37:00 -
[27]
The amount of stupid in this thread has reached critical mass many times over.
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Maria Kalista
Amarr Emerald Forest Securities
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:53:00 -
[28]
Threads like this make me sad. "Instant gratification". Jukk. 'Me, me, me! Gimme, gimmme, gimme now, now niouw!!
Stop trying to change one of the core mechanics of this great game by turning it into a copy of all the other dumbed down MMO's out there. No one is forcing you to play. If you don't like it stop playing it.
Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
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Serpensis
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.19 05:57:00 -
[29]
Merging skills huh?
As an older player, I have to say : what is to stop me from buying and merging 7 other chars for 20B each? I think that would leave the OP with even less chance of catching up.
OP; you fail. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty." |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.07.19 06:02:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Khemul Zula on 19/07/2009 06:03:27
Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:35:12 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:34:21
Originally by: Khemul Zula The problem with making changes based on perceptions, is that the perception doesn't necessarily change. Perception is how people see things, not necessarily how things are. Not necessarily based on reality.
The idea that someone playing longer is going to be superior will always be there. No way to dislodge it. I mean hey, this is a game with a 5 level cap on skills, and people still stick to the "I can't catch up!" belief.
Also, GTCs are bad enough. You should not be able to buy your way through this game. Buying ISK and time would just be rediculous. It would create a new perception, that people without money can never catch up with those with money (sort of like people feel about real life ).
In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
Oooooooooo***ay.
I can't argue with that logic. I'd try, but by the time I dig a point out of that rambling and figure out what thought process connected A, B, and C together into what appears to be some type of parallelogram (which is quite a feat with 3 parts) of confusion I'd probsably be insane. Atleast more so then usual.
<3 the language filters
"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 06:05:00 -
[31]
wait for skills to train like everyone else b.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:24:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lanissum
As I sit here, typing this up, I haven't really played much EvE for the past week or so. This is mainly because I'm waiting for Amarr Cruiser V to finally finish (5 days from now) and let me fly the Curse (Neuting from 30km away? Hell yah)
Well it's your time and money to waste, so you can do that if you like.
But I'd advise fitting out a bunch of arbitrators with neuts in the highslots and going out and having some fun with them.
I'll readily concede that having lots of SP sure is nice, but it's an incontestable fact that, outside of L4 missions, once you have about 5-6M SP in PvP skills, player skill completely dominates character skill. And, as mentioned above, at only a few hundred thousand SP, sufficient player skill can still outweigh lack of skill plus an arbitrary level of SP. All you're really asking for is to end up like those sad individuals who abuse their parents' credit cards to buy a 70M SP "toon" and then come whining to the forums about how unfair it is that "veterans dont get any advantage over new players". I'm serious - there was one in this forum a couple of days ago.
I'm quite serious with my advice above, by the way. A week or two spent losing a dozen arbitrators (one of the best T1 cruisers, btw) will make you a far more effective Curse pilot than any number of skills.
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Galan Amarias
Amarr The Drekla Consortium Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.19 08:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:35:12 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:34:21 In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
Wow,
Where to begin, 1. RL comparisons fail. This is a game. 2. If this god you speak of designed EVE like his RL "game" we'd have had to wait billions of years for there to be players. 3. You admit you are quitting, your opinion ceases to count. 4. You admit you are quitting can I have your stuff?
5. It is possible to surpass the powers that be in EVE with less skill points than they have.
To the OP. Yes in principle buying an old character is like buying said old character's skills. The problem is it can not be balanced. With the old char you buy only the skills they have trained, you also get their reputation and sec status. What you want would provide an out to corp thieves who could erase their rep with a few mouse clicks and a fraction of the loot. This is EVE and actions have consequences. At most I'd agree to let you buy the entire package and change the name with a tab on your show info proclaiming who you used to be and an eve-mail sent to everyone who has you as a buddy when you change your name. No piecemeal skill hunt and peck, all or nothing.
-Galan
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Drykor
Minmatar Reform-Revolt
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Posted - 2009.07.19 09:01:00 -
[34]
Buying chars was a bad thing in the first place and I sincerely hope CCP only implemented it to kill the black market (but I'm guessing they like the 20$ too) Let's not take it further.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.07.19 10:35:00 -
[35]
Just about hitting 8m SP at the moment after 5 months. At this point I'm already of use in a gang, maybe not a 'full' person but definitely more than a half in either an Arbitrator or a Harbie. ( no T2 medium lasers or advanced Weapon Disruption Skills ).
But give it another 4m SP and 2 and a half months and then I should be able to do 80+% of what any other character can do in those ships with all the trimmings ( T2, overheating etc. )
Getting that far within 7 and a half months of joining the game seems pretty fair to me, and allows me plenty of satisfying options.
I do find it interesting that your station spinning while you wait for your ship to train, how come you don't have other stuff that's worth doing?
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Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.07.19 11:04:00 -
[36]
As has been posted and pointed out, i have 63 level 5 skills yes that's bad for my age so sue me :P
In any given ship only so many of those level 5's actually do anything, sure i have advanced spaceship command 5 does that help me fly an omen, i have mining 5 does that help me fly a rifter?
The answer is no it doesn't all it does is give me more options in what i fly, i can fly more ships than you but if you max skills for a specific race or ship you'll do just as well as any vet in the game because only so many skills can help you in any given situation :)
So stop whining about not being able to catch up because its a piece of **** to do mate, also don't even think about whining that you can't do anything in PvP because all you need is a frig an MWD and a web to help in PvP and i'm sure you can train those in short order ;)
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Nemiron
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.19 11:23:00 -
[37]
If you don't have the patience to skill up your own char, CCP gives you the opportunity to buy one from another player. Drawback is, that you lose the experience of skilling up your own char and not having the bond one has to a char when he raises the char itself.
All you want is to have all the good stuff without the bad - which will not happen.
As for buying skills with isk: since you can buy isk, you could essentially buy skill with RL money, which would simply kill the game. Just like SWG was killed by NGE.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2009.07.19 11:55:00 -
[38]
so let me get this straight, you want to get more SP faster than everyone else who patiently have been training their skills to whatever number.... ok, thats very fair :) _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.07.19 12:04:00 -
[39]
Go post in feature and development forum where we can all ignore crap posts like this.
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Suey Syder
Alpha Lima Tango INC.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 13:15:00 -
[40]
I totally agree, you really should stop playing a game that doesnt cater to your taste in insta gratification.
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Skalet
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Posted - 2009.07.19 13:23:00 -
[41]
dear OP
evidentally your brain mass is too small to play a game such as eve, as the most anyone can train a thing for is level 5.
i would go on but if you dont understand that, then your too dim to understand what i would say either.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.19 13:32:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lanissum Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise.
This is the rub of the issue, and why your ideas aren't really useful: they fix a problem that doesn't exist. Total SP is irrelevant, and not something that needs to be "caught up" to. The solution to your perceived problems is simple: change the incorrect perception.
Quote: 1. Instead of transfering the purchased character, the new character's skills (and assets, etc) are merged with yours, and the new character ceases to exist.
Pros: You get your SP's, they get their ISK, CCP gets more disk space, you don't have to trash your precious main.
Cons: You don't get what you pay for due to overlap. Older players will do the same, and to a larger extent since they have to means to do so. Creates radical differences between the haves the the have-nots (new players, by very definition, being have-nots). You will now never catch up.
Quote: 2. Instead of buying a character, you buy individual skills (pay x isk to finish a currently training skill now).[…]
Pros: You get exactly what you want, right now, instant gratification.
Cons: Instant gratification. Older players will do the same, and to a larger extent since they've already decided that they like the game enough to sink money into it. Creates radical differences between the haves the the have-nots (new players, by very definition, being have-nots). You will now never catch up.
Quote: 3. Instead of buying a character, you pay to increase your training rate for a certain amount of time (or SP). Similar to the current noob 'x2 training bonus until 1.6 mil SP'
Pros: You get what you want.
Cons: Older players will do the same, and to a larger extent since they've already decided that they like the game enough to sink money into it. Creates radical differences between the haves the the have-nots (new players, by very definition, being have-nots). You will now never catch up.
All your proposed solutions are to a problem that doesn't exist, and actually only serve to worsen that problem even if it were to exist. If you want to change the skill system (for whatever reason) you need to provide a good argument as to why — "don't wanna!" isn't an adequate reason. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.19 14:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 14:32:45 Reminds me a bit of when I played WOW. Many players used to cry for better gear not realising all they had to do was play better. They failed in the game as they were bad but the first thing they used as an excuse is not being able to get better gear. When they got it they still failed of course so then they cried for more gear...and so on, never ending.
Of course at the same time they moaned content was too hard for whatever silly excuse they could bring up (all of which failed on cursory examination, like 'having a life' or 'I want fun not a job')
The fact players where doing content in inferior gear did not seem to factor into their heads as a big hint they were simply bad and needed to learn the game better.
There is considerable evidence in EVE that a low SP player can do a lot, more than most games actually.
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Pater Peccavi
Minmatar Cadre Assault Force
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Posted - 2009.07.19 14:33:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Pater Peccavi on 19/07/2009 14:35:02
Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 19/07/2009 06:03:27
Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:35:12 Edited by: Michwich on 19/07/2009 05:34:21
Originally by: Khemul Zula The problem with making changes based on perceptions, is that the perception doesn't necessarily change. Perception is how people see things, not necessarily how things are. Not necessarily based on reality.
The idea that someone playing longer is going to be superior will always be there. No way to dislodge it. I mean hey, this is a game with a 5 level cap on skills, and people still stick to the "I can't catch up!" belief.
Also, GTCs are bad enough. You should not be able to buy your way through this game. Buying ISK and time would just be rediculous. It would create a new perception, that people without money can never catch up with those with money (sort of like people feel about real life ).
In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
Oooooooooo***ay.
I can't argue with that logic. I'd try, but by the time I dig a point out of that rambling and figure out what thought process connected A, B, and C together into what appears to be some type of parallelogram (which is quite a feat with 3 parts) of confusion I'd probsably be insane. Atleast more so then usual.
<3 the language filters
I think he's saying he wants implants that allow you to train skills faster. It's about time CCP implemented some of those.
Edit: Khemul left an unclosed Edit tag, messed up my whole post. ______ Why has the number of players online dropped from 50k to 25k? BECAUSE OF SWINE FLU |
Pepsicor
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:27:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Pepsicor on 19/07/2009 16:29:08 As much as I would love to see some of the OP's ideas happen. Sadly they won't unless there is a big change at CCP.
It's obvious that the game company running EVE wants to make more money. Look at all the ads they have. But still subscriptions have been pretty flat. So instead they nickle & dime the current players base.
If CCP really wants to make money and improve the subscription base they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships. There are plenty of great gamers in the MMO community who would love to participate in EVE who aren't going to invest years of their life to compete at the highest level.
Eve is a great game with the potential for some great PVP in regular game play and tournaments. But it shouldn't take years for a player to build skill points simply to fly a ship and compete with others. Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.)
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Pepsicor But still subscriptions have been pretty flat.
Eh… Sure, if by "flat" you mean "continuously rising for the last 6 years".
Quote: they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships.
What "level" is that? Which are the "best ships"? The beauty of EVE is that neither of those two things exist, unlike the mindless bog-standard level-based MMOs out there. There are specific ships that are better for a particular purpose, but they are universally crap at everything outside of that role.
Quote: Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.)
It won't make them angry — it will just make them laugh as they proceed to create a new alt and blow you to bits with their starting frigs… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
LiquidSteele
Terminal Impact
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:41:00 -
[47]
TBH they should get rid of the skill point system and let everyone be able to use any mod/ship they want. Also remove isk as some people have more of it than others so obviously unfair, just have everything for free.
Seriously though, I'll always have more skill points than the OP and that makes me happy. |
Taedrin
Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:47:00 -
[48]
To be frank, the distance between new and old players is a LOT closer than you think. Due to the geometric increase of skill training time, you can train most skills to level 3 within a day or two for what is usually a 15% increase in effectiveness. Level 4 takes anywhere from a few days to a week or so to boost that up to 20%. Level 5 takes anywhere from a week to over a month to train for that final 5%.
What this means is that the longer you train skills, the less advantage you gain from training said skills. The only exceptions to this rule are the level 5 skills needed to pilot or use various T2 ships/modules. And capital ships too, I suppose. I dare say that 6 month old character who focuses his/her training can become 90% as proficient as a 4 year old veteran.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:53:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 16:53:59 One problem is many see skilling as levelling, when its very different from that. You can blame most other MMORPG's for this.
Its easy to grasp, you can do a lot with few skill points. There is NO end game. You can be involved in any activity you want in a few months.
If players are really sitting in a station waiting for a skill to finish for most of their time they are in the wrong game as they have a very limited understanding of what they could be doing as viable and fun alternatives.
If you cant fly a ship for a while, so what? Pick one you can and get on with playing.
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Killer Gandry
Caldari Red Horizon Inc
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:53:00 -
[50]
For the dumbasses out there.
When you fly a HaC, howmany of your skillpoints are related to said HaC? Same for any other ship, howmany of the total skillpoints are related to that special ship.
A 80 mill SP char might have 80 mill SP total, but someone who specially trained for 1 ship doesn't need 80 mill skillpoints to fly it at the best range.
The only benefit the 80 mill skillpoint guy has is that he might be able to fly more ships with max skills. But in the end you can only fly one ship at a time.
So for those comming with stupid suggestions like buying skillpoints or mergin skillpoints with your current character with a character you bought, go play some kiddie game.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2009.07.19 16:55:00 -
[51]
As a person that has trained MANY characters in this game, let me tell you.. it's not really that true. I've tried to train a character to do "everything" and that character would get pwned by any one of the characters with a fraction of the skillpoints that are specialized.
Your statement might hold true if the total trained skill times of two characters were laid out side-by-side, but that's not even close to an accurate comparison of skills if you want to determine character worthiness.
I could have one character trained to fly dreads and interceptors and the other character trained to only fly hacs. Most of the situations I could match these characters up in would never put one ahead of the other in abilities.
what the crap just happened? |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.07.19 17:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Pepsicor Edited by: Pepsicor on 19/07/2009 16:29:08 As much as I would love to see some of the OP's ideas happen. Sadly they won't unless there is a big change at CCP.
It's obvious that the game company running EVE wants to make more money. Look at all the ads they have. But still subscriptions have been pretty flat. So instead they nickle & dime the current players base.
If CCP really wants to make money and improve the subscription base they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships. There are plenty of great gamers in the MMO community who would love to participate in EVE who aren't going to invest years of their life to compete at the highest level.
Eve is a great game with the potential for some great PVP in regular game play and tournaments. But it shouldn't take years for a player to build skill points simply to fly a ship and compete with others. Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.)
The "I'm also one of the new guys. Having only played for about a month." telling people who have played for years how the game works. The truth is, that the longer you play, the more you come to realise it is your knowledge about the game that makes you fail/succeed in it. When you know the game well, the little difference SP makes is of no concern to you.
What you suggest is to make this game something the current subsribers aren't willing to pay for. And for what? To attract mystical phantom subscribers, that might never materialize. Those instant gratification people have dozens of games to choose from already, the companies that have catered for them(most MMOs) have lower subscriber numbers then EVE and usually lose most of those within a year or two. Also why would new players invest their time in a game, when the developer has just screwed over their existing playerbase and completely changed the nature of the game. Who on earth would trust such a developer ever again? The truth propably is, that you like instant gratification and expect everyone to be the same, so EVE should be changed to cater to your needs and false perceptions.
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Pepsicor
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.07.19 17:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Pepsicor Edited by: Pepsicor on 19/07/2009 16:29:08 As much as I would love to see some of the OP's ideas happen. Sadly they won't unless there is a big change at CCP.
It's obvious that the game company running EVE wants to make more money. Look at all the ads they have. But still subscriptions have been pretty flat. So instead they nickle & dime the current players base.
If CCP really wants to make money and improve the subscription base they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships. There are plenty of great gamers in the MMO community who would love to participate in EVE who aren't going to invest years of their life to compete at the highest level.
Eve is a great game with the potential for some great PVP in regular game play and tournaments. But it shouldn't take years for a player to build skill points simply to fly a ship and compete with others. Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.)
The "I'm also one of the new guys. Having only played for about a month." telling people who have played for years how the game works. The truth is, that the longer you play, the more you come to realise it is your knowledge about the game that makes you fail/succeed in it. When you know the game well, the little difference SP makes is of no concern to you.
What you suggest is to make this game something the current subsribers aren't willing to pay for. And for what? To attract mystical phantom subscribers, that might never materialize. Those instant gratification people have dozens of games to choose from already, the companies that have catered for them(most MMOs) have lower subscriber numbers then EVE and usually lose most of those within a year or two. Also why would new players invest their time in a game, when the developer has just screwed over their existing playerbase and completely changed the nature of the game. Who on earth would trust such a developer ever again? The truth propably is, that you like instant gratification and expect everyone to be the same, so EVE should be changed to cater to your needs and false perceptions.
Finally we have someone who is honest. This is the post I've been waiting for.
So it's not about the new players, screw the new players. It's about the old players and keeping the old player base happy.
I do appreciate your honesty.
It had to be said.
Maybe there is a way to make everyone happy.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.19 17:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Pepsicor So it's not about the new players, screw the new players. It's about the old players and keeping the old player base happy.
Way to not read the post.
What he said was: screw the non-existing players — keep the actual players happy. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
ThrashPower
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.19 17:15:00 -
[55]
Without jumping on the flame bandwagon. Wouldn't these ideas just increase the gap, older players are more likely to have more isk, thus they are the ones who will use your suggested services and gain more sp.
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Lanissum
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 18:51:00 -
[56]
WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely:
1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's)
So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales). -sig-
Check this out! Get Free Mods! |
Miss MaxxJaxX
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Posted - 2009.07.19 19:17:00 -
[57]
The math behind it is realy very simple. The reason the old chars have more skills is because the started paying for it 5 years earlier....
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N'tek alar
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Posted - 2009.07.19 19:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lanissum *snip*
Ok, you want a downside to this idea of yours? i'll give you a big one.
Old character with loads of sp does something that trashes his reputation and possibly his sec status as well, leaving him hunted by people, not trusted by just about anyone due to multiple large scams/corp thefts etc and a -10 sec status.
Old character makes a new alt, then "sells" his char to new alt, Thereby effectively resetting his sec status and reputation.
rinse, repeat.
Oh and ofc he will be able to do so for a small fee instead of spending obscene amounts of isk to replace his awesome char, After all, if this service isn't cheap (rl cost that is, it'll obviously be free for him iskwise as he owns both selling and buying char), it's not like CCP could charge a lot for it since noone would use it if they did.
Your idea isn't "a bit exploitable", it's a bad idea because it's nothing more than a way to cheat your way out of taking responsibility for your actions (and yes, i would definitely prefer if char sales were entirely impossible, but at least to buy a competent pvp char you'll have to pay up a large sum of isk instead of a tiny sum of rl money, the way you're suggesting.) |
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.19 19:41:00 -
[59]
Originally by: ThrashPower Without jumping on the flame bandwagon. Wouldn't these ideas just increase the gap, older players are more likely to have more isk, thus they are the ones who will use your suggested services and gain more sp.
This.
FREE! jumpclone service: Forum thread|Podlog |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:33:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lanissum WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely:
1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's)
So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales).
I'd suggest that most of us dont like character sales as such, but that, as with GTC-for-ISK, it's a question of being the least worst option, with the additional benefit of providing a useful amount of revenue to CCP (thereby averting the evil day when they raise their prices).
And... it does at least provide a genuine, game-legal alternative for a new player who believes he has the personal skill to match an old character's skills.
At the end of the day, I'd say most of us dont worry about it that much because when we say things like "player skill beats skillpoints", we actually mean it. So if some day-1 noob wants to drop ú400 on GTCs to buy a 35M SP character, more power to him; he's still only a day-1 noob. It's just not really a problem. The biggest drawback to character sales is in my opinion that corp thieves &c can recycle their ISK. But even if character sales were outlawed, they would happen anyway (check eBay).
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:34:00 -
[61]
i agree, its bloody unfair that i wont ever catch up to those 100mill sp chars
i think ill manage though
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:41:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 20:43:46
Originally by: Lanissum WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely:
1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's)
So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales).
I'm sorry to tell you that if you keep insisting what has been proven to be incorrect you will fail badly in this game. You have no workable idea and the single most important skill you have is your brain, all else does not make you a better player. I know this is irrelevant in most MMORPG's but in EVE its the key to being the best.
And the reason why so many reply to you is this total crap your spouting affects potential new players who believe it.
This is not WOW or any other clone so get over yourself and stop thinking you will revolutionise something that's worked very well for many years.
In other games you have to level to get to end game and a level 80 can thrash a level 75 with ease. There is only the end game.
In EVE you do not have to 'level' to beat another player and there IS NO ENDGAME.
You would be better off in a game where you can power level in a week or two and then spend the rest of your time being terrible at the game play as you never bothered to learn your class. For class read ship.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Keisen Trade League
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:47:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Pepsicor Maybe there is a way to make everyone happy.
Nope.
Seriously, nope.
Can't make everyone happy. Make the world a bright sunny paradise where all a person's wishes are granted instantly, and you'll still have people complaining that it is too damned bright out. Or that the wish wasn't granted fast enough. Or that wishes granted today just arn't what they used to be. Back in the day you had to travel miles in the snow (which is odd in a bright sunny paradise) to have a wish granted, and the person doing it was senile so half the time you'd get the complete opposite. But you were happy with it, because if you complained you would probably be turned into a duck.
Can't make everyone happy.
"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."
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The PitBoss
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:48:00 -
[64]
I wanna catch up with people who signed up for BETA
Thank-You,
The Pitboss (Space between The & Pitboss)
Signatures by: Kalen Vox |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:59:00 -
[65]
A 100 mil sp char is no better at flying a retribution than me when I was at 16 mil sp and that is all that counts.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.19 20:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Lanissum After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely:
1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's)
1. The problem you think you're seeing doesn't exist.
What you're describing is simply a symptom of an assumption or uninformed belief that EVE works like the class/level-based systems so commonly used in other MMOs, where higher/larger/more = better. The solution to this problem is simple: stop believing that the game works that way. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.07.19 21:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Lanissum
Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise. That way is by purchasing a character (for a large isk sum) from somebody else made. I don't really like this 'solution', namely because it requires that you literally become an older player. As I sit on 4 billion + isk, I don't really want to buy an Uber PvP char (which probably costs 10b +) because I've invested over a year into Lanissum.
Wrong, I caught up to quite a few old players, right before scrambling and webbing. _ |
Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.19 21:04:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/07/2009 21:04:46 It would be wrong for the game too, Its a bit like someone telling the Times newspaper they should put **** on page 3 as The Sun does and it has more readers. Eve is intentionally not competing with WOW the same as The Times is not competing with The Sun, it appeals to different players..intentionally.
If it did try and compete it will crash and burn like all the other MMORPG's that tried. So anything that dumbs the game down must be handled with great care.
I actually do think training could be reduced but everytime I see the reason for it is to make it easier I'm put off the whole idea.
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nahtoh
Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.07.19 21:38:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Pepsicor Edited by: Pepsicor on 19/07/2009 16:29:08 As much as I would love to see some of the OP's ideas happen. Sadly they won't unless there is a big change at CCP.
It's obvious that the game company running EVE wants to make more money. Look at all the ads they have. But still subscriptions have been pretty flat. So instead they nickle & dime the current players base.
If CCP really wants to make money and improve the subscription base they will have to make it so in 6 months a player can compete at the highest level with the best ships. There are plenty of great gamers in the MMO community who would love to participate in EVE who aren't going to invest years of their life to compete at the highest level.
Eve is a great game with the potential for some great PVP in regular game play and tournaments. But it shouldn't take years for a player to build skill points simply to fly a ship and compete with others. Right now it has nothing to do with player skill, it's all about skill points. (I know that will make the Eve Elite angry, but it's true.)
And the change would be a mass lobotimy, but you seem to have got in there first.
I know I have been killed by older players, same age players and younger players and...ah bugger it why try and argue this yet again with a ! it never works. I miss when i started looked all the things to train and thought "cool I got all this stuff to look forward to!!!!!". ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.19 22:02:00 -
[70]
New players will be able to catch up to where older players were, by playing as long as they did. Over time, as more and more older players take breaks from the game, you will eventually catch up to most.
This game is going to be around for years to come. You need to think on that scale, not just of the moment.
Some older players will never quit, so they will be nearly un-catchable, but their MedClones will eventually cost far more than yours, and they will have little advantage, if any, over you.
If you allow a way for new players to catch up to older players, you will have to do this at ever increasing rates in the future? Where does it end? Essentially, you are bringing power-leveling into a game that has no need or purpose for it.
And you dramatically shorten the possbile lifespan of this game in the process.
Its not about the SP you have, its the isk and friends you have. Of course you need the base entry sp amounts in the proper fields, but that just means you "should have" learned the basics of the game by then.
Those who are fixated on the total sp amount are trying to apply rules of other games to this one and are ignorant of the reality of the game mechanics for this game.
Sometimes I wish we could apply filters to these forums. To ignore all from accounts that are less than 1 year old. Might filter out a lot of the noise.
But sometimes new players do really bring up a fresh angle on the game. But not in this case.
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Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2009.07.19 22:40:00 -
[71]
10 Pod them. 20 Go to 10.
Eventually they will forget to update their clone, and start losing SP. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
Lord Haur
Amarr Cursed Souls
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Posted - 2009.07.19 22:54:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Lord Haur on 19/07/2009 22:54:31
Originally by: Michwich In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
The example given is shown ingame by finding an Estamel's Modified Invuln in a wreck abandoned on a gate. Highly unlikely, but possible.
Are you suggesting we should be able to learn to drive, swim, fly a plane and learn particle physics instantly? Somehow, that doesn't happen in RL. v0v
Edit: Fixed space.
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Lanissum
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 23:23:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Lanissum
Currently, there is only one way of 'catching up' with the older players SP wise. That way is by purchasing a character (for a large isk sum) from somebody else made. I don't really like this 'solution', namely because it requires that you literally become an older player. As I sit on 4 billion + isk, I don't really want to buy an Uber PvP char (which probably costs 10b +) because I've invested over a year into Lanissum.
Wrong, I caught up to quite a few old players, right before scrambling and webbing.
^Lol, this -sig-
Check this out! Get Free Mods! |
Soren
PAK
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Posted - 2009.07.20 00:22:00 -
[74]
Current skills: 185 (skill points: 108,796,511)
You'll never beat me!!
P.S. I haven't undocked in ages and everyone scares me |
Akiba Penrose
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Posted - 2009.07.20 00:25:00 -
[75]
[ 2009.07.19 00:22:01 ] Soren > I"M UNDOCKING!! |
Radoslav Pirs
Cult of Negerbun
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Posted - 2009.07.20 00:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Akiba Penrose [ 2009.07.19 00:22:01 ] Soren > I"M UNDOCKING!!
hehe nice one Akiba
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2009.07.20 02:22:00 -
[77]
When you buy a character you don't have to put it on the same account as your current main, obtain a new account with a throwaway alt and get the character you want.
Yes you'll be responsible for two accounts, but you'll have two characters then you'll see why the skill training isn't actually that imbalanced as it seems to be when people say they have 60M skill points.
What is messed up is that one person could be controlling three characters at a time simply because they can, but that's a different arguement and really I've long since got over any hangups from my earlier percieved notion that there were actually only ten people playing eve due to the number of alt accounts there are.
Anyway, thankfully not all are active, just like the skill points when you're flying one ship or another.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Taedrin
Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.07.20 02:55:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Lord Haur Edited by: Lord Haur on 19/07/2009 22:54:31
Originally by: Michwich In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage. Now you take a look at CPP's rendition of a perfect game (life) and you can plainly see how it differs and why it would be a problem. If God designed our game this way, why isnt CCP doing it the same way? Is it even fair to hold CCP to such a high standard of design? I think so. In the meantime while CPP figures out how to make the perfect game, they can put in some stop gaps like mods that let you grind for skill training time, or better boosters that speed up that process, or just open up the market and let us buy them.
The example given is shown ingame by finding an Estamel's Modified Invuln in a wreck abandoned on a gate. Highly unlikely, but possible.
Are you suggesting we should be able to learn to drive, swim, fly a plane and learn particle physics instantly? Somehow, that doesn't happen in RL. v0v
Edit: Fixed space.
More like finding an Estamel's Modified Invul inside a shuttle that you smartbombed on a gate in low sec. Has happened on several occasions, IIRC.
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Karo Manir
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Posted - 2009.07.20 06:01:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Lanissum WoW, I wasn't expecting this post to be so... 'popular'. After skimming through the inevitable flames, I did glean some decent counter arguments... namely:
1. Old players can also do anything that I've suggested, and they'll probably have more resources to do so. 2. Some of my ideas are a bit exploitable (especially the skill merging one) 3. You can get to 90% (I would say more like 80%, but w/e) effectiveness within a few weeks in any particular field (except for mandated level V's)
So, I guess I'd like to know what you guys think of the current system (CCP sanctioned character sales).
Most players think about it the same way the devs think about it. It is going to happen inevitably, lets make it contribute to the game. If there wasn't a formal system for trading characters, they wold be sold on e-bay and by toon farmers just like every other MMO.
As for the older characters always having more SP, in almost every social system experience or age has benefits. SP are Eve's rudimentary form of hazing (which is not necessarily bad). We had to get along with only a handful of ship options and learn to adapt before our options widened, you must do the same before you can really be our equal.
In a school setting, it is thought you should be a fish before you are a sophomore, a sophomore before a junior, and a junior before a senior. Within fraternities, ROTCs, or other college groups, those distinctions come with benefits not necessarily tied to organizational rank (the hall president may be a sophomore but at a hall dinner he will bus a senior's tray).
In Eve, the benefit of seniority is a diversity of capabilities represented by your skill point count. In order to properly appreciate being an 80 million sp player you must know what it is lie to be a 40 million sp character and to properly appreciate being a 40 million sp player you must know what it is like to be a 20 million sp character, etc.
I realize my analogy is poorly worded but bive me a break, it is 1am and I am more that a little drunk. ----------------------- Note, this is an alt. It is used when I say stupid things. It is also used when I troll. It does not get used often. |
m3rb3aSt
Minmatar Advanced Component Research Enterprise GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.20 06:24:00 -
[80]
you know i had the same thought when i first started playing but i stuck with it and now I have almost 40m sp
however it doesn't take long to catch up. just a few skills to V for a certain ship and you will be as good as an '03
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.20 06:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: No Homo Cry more noob
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Jacinta Worth
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:33:00 -
[82]
You know, considering how many people make the argument that skill points mean very little I'm surprised there aren't more in favour of some other method to gain them.
My personal major argument against it would be that it takes some time to get used to the mechanics of the game. Having the ability to fly the biggest and most expensive ships in the game within the first week would lead to a lot of unhappy people when said ship got blown up. However since the ability to buy old characters is already in existence this happens fairly often anyway.
I suspect much of the reason for the length of training time is that CCP like to dangle a carrot in front of us (that is the general population who don't buy old characters) to keep us playing for longer than we would have originally planned. I have no issues with this since I have felt effective enough in a fight since about six months into the game and thoroughly enjoyed my time previous to that in any case.
Regardless, I feel like the system works as it is. I like to try and keep an open mind about changes to the skill-point mechanic and certainly don't think getting riled up because someone thinks changing it might be a good idea accomplishes anything but currently, it takes what, three months, to become really excellent at flying interceptors, at which point you can effectively participate in 'end-game' politics. And you can participate in anycase well before then. I don't see how this is worse than any other MMO out there in all honesty. How long does it take your average WoW player to be able to participate in the end game there? Two months? More? Dunno, never played it but my impression is it'll take around that long to hit max level playing an average amount a week. And even if it's less, I don't believe you could be useful in the same way a week or two week old character in EVE could be useful after the same period of time.
If you're really that desperate to, I don't know, get into a capital ship or something one month into the game then buy a character that can do that. Your main doesn't necessarily need to get in to a capital ship at all and you can continue training that up while you're in the capital pounding POSes or in your Golem doing missions. And seriously, don't sweat the 'never catching up to the old guys' thing. After a year it doesn't matter much anyway and after six months you'll have enough options to feel like you're pretty handy in more than a few situations.
Hmmm, that became a lot longer than I expected.
TL:DR? I think things are fine the way they are but I don't think it'd do any harm to have a rethink about the old mechanics every once in a while.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:35:00 -
[83]
No need to catch up to older players, we'll wait for you at the end.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Dapto
Minmatar Dissolution Of Eternity
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Posted - 2009.07.20 08:04:00 -
[84]
What people forget is NOOBS dont have a fricken clue and will waist many days-weeks training skills that arent necessary to the specialised ship they end up wanting.
Now I'm at a stage too (very very angry) if new players got a supper start that reduced their training more than now.
I do however agree in principle to the op but think there is no solution to this looking inside the box. Outside the box you could do this CCP.
CCP could charge equal to one year subscription upfront as a one off per character which will give the player 25mil SP. This will give you no game time and could be introduced and be available to all players new and old. Still doesnt rebalance Skill Points but I'd say this would be taken up buy many players. If it was done like this older players wont be able to whinge because they'd have the option to take this up too.
But watch the NOOBS whinge as they'd put most, if not all in useless skills. Dapto |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.20 09:40:00 -
[85]
ah yes the age old "you have a bigger e-peen than I. I want that too" debacle.
hint: player skill > SP
disregard that and you'll be blown'd up in your npc'ing CNR raven with heavy launchers and a tach with large shield booster in the mids, a med repper in the lows and 2 WCS the first time you hit low-sec, and then you will cry that, since the people that blew you up were playing longer than you, they had more SP than you, but you fail to say that they were just 3-month old players armed with drakes that decided on the get-go to pirate and learn the ropes of it. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Princess Misha
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.20 09:44:00 -
[86]
THE original post makes me think of HIGHLANDER:
There can be ONLY one!!!
By merging / absorbing other players power / skill points, you become better.
hmmmm.. i wanna absorb Dr caymus...
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Okonaa
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Posted - 2009.07.20 10:49:00 -
[87]
Even though im a noob (3,5m) i like it. that way you dont see l33t kids like in other games, who think they are so uber with their 1337 skills. the more i think about it, the better i like the CCP way of gaining experience in this game.
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Gareshor
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Posted - 2009.07.20 10:55:00 -
[88]
I've been playing this game for less than a month, and your idea sucks. I'm sorry, but just having messed around and done a lot of math...I can see myself being proficient in what I WANT to be proficient in in 6 months. I like the idea of an MMO where an individual can keep progressing without hitting a hard cap. I also like the Eve does have certain "hard caps" in specific areas, but once you master those you can expand into another area. This isn't WoW. I played WoW. I raided.(It was my first MMO, so gimme a break), and after experiencing all there was...that game is flawed. It's basically made for mass appeal while lacking substance and nuance. It's boring. Eve can be difficult at times, and it may not be fair, but just looking at some of the things CCP has done to fix problems, and the way it's designed...it works. It works a hell of a lot better than WoW did, or any of the other MMOs I've tried. Give it a rest. The skill system works.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:48:00 -
[89]
Tell it to the 2year old elite miner in his T2 kitted Hulk, who got owned by a 2 week old in a T1 frig.
Older players just have more skills in MORE areas. specialize and u can match or even outperform them with ease.
NOW STOP WHINING!!! ________________________________________________
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Chantilly Layce
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:50:00 -
[90]
While I sympathize with many players who join the game and feel overwhelmed to some degree by the learning curve this game requires, and the time one must invest in that learning curve, the whole proposal of "catching up" is flawed right from the get-go.
The game universe is not meant to have a population of homogenously skilled and experienced players. Indeed that diversity is key to so much of the day-to-day adventure in this game that any attempt, including some sort of "catching up" scheme for skills fueled by copious amounts of ISK, would ruin the game to such a catastrophic degree that players probably wouldn't want to play anymore. It simply would not be the same game.
So, yes, I believe a [relatively] new player's only option to "catch up" should be to purchase an older toon and "jump in at the top" with that 2 or 3 year old character.
Your Mileage May Vary.
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gfldex
Kabelkopp
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:02:00 -
[91]
When I joined the game there where players up to 1+ Years ahead of me. They served me quite well.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:51:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 20/07/2009 13:51:44 Tbh one will never catch up to the old players in all thier fields.
Much like in RL. a 30 year old guys simply got more life expereince then a 15 year old. And he will always have that 15 year advantage.
But in EVE we got SP, and even if you got less SP then a player do not mean that he is better then you. I kill players older then me often enough in PvP.
EVE also places a lot of effort on the 'player skill'. More so then any other MMORPG that I have botherd to take a closer look at.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.20 14:01:00 -
[93]
I AGREE, NERF L4'S!
Uh, I mean...CCP STOP SELLING ISK!!
No, wait, that's not right...
...whine?
(Let newbs train uber fast to catch up to vets..)
Oh, right, right...OLD CHARS ARE OP NERF PL0X!!!
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Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.07.20 14:57:00 -
[94]
to the op.
1 give me your stuff 2 biomass your characters 3 ask ccp if they can delete your accaunt 4 play wow. 5 gind yourself to max levels 6 be happy~
everyone who plays this game started out the same , actually the older characters started out worse as it is today. They playd the game longer and that gave them more options = SP . Newer players are perfectly capable of killing older players. _______________ Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Kaptain Kruncher
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Posted - 2009.07.20 15:09:00 -
[95]
I'm a year and some months into the game and have about 20mil SP on both my Chars. I play pretty regularly. I have never thought for a second that my experience has been diminished by the fact that I don't have SP equal to an older player. This game is a blast, no matter how long you have been playing it. Another thing, the older characters in my corp have saved me tons of time by giving me good training, tactical and isk earning advice. This is how it should be.
I hope CCP never changes this.
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R'onen
Minmatar Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2009.07.20 17:19:00 -
[96]
I hate "not being able to catch up", so I just say in 0.5 or above. I'll get out to 0.0 with those older players soon enough. I do like the buy the x2 bonus for ISK thing though.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.07.20 17:20:00 -
[97]
Just use two webs and any noob in a frigate should be able to catch up with any veteran.
No, wait... what was this thread about? -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.20 18:00:00 -
[98]
Just did an experiment — it will take exactly 8 days and 7 hours (and, admittedly, 6mil ISK, which might be hard to come by) for a newly created character to not only catch up but surpass my 30:ish mil SP toon…
So yeah, it's completely impossible. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Ohhh Matron
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:18:00 -
[99]
Kids today!
They just expect it all with no effort. Plus for some reason young people seem to think that you are born with a quota of respect that must be...well..respected.
I've seen it at work. 17-18 year old new entrants that think its beneath them to do the filing and the post. No, they want to be project managing or running a dept!!
Its the same the world over. So few want to put the graft in or have any patience.
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supr3m3justic3
Caldari GANK STARZ
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:26:00 -
[100]
Quit whinning noob, we all had to start out with the same amount of SP, xcpt now all you noob's get 2x skill training till what ever, So you can train cruiser 5 in like 15 days right outta the gate. I didnt cry about it when i started a year and a half ago, and i didnt get my hand held by CCP like i was a lost child either, suck it up, poor baby
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed resolution of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. -Weatherman |
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Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:31:00 -
[101]
What sux is when I go to lowsec looking to get blown up and offer myself up for a 1v1 or whatever, everytime someone looks at my info they decide better of it and don't bother blowing me up. Honestly, some of us really are pvp n00bs even after a couple years and can be taken down by 3 month old players. I was in Mara I think it was the other day and a couple people came and warped to the planet I was sitting at after announcing it and warped away immediately when I started approaching them...made me sad in the pants :(
I usually end up fighting against some HAC or BS in my rupture of lolfit and get blown up in 3 seconds :(
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Phat Hauler
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:51:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Junko Togawa I AGREE, NERF L4'S!
Uh, I mean...CCP STOP SELLING ISK!!
No, wait, that's not right...
...whine?
(Let newbs train uber fast to catch up to vets..)
Oh, right, right...OLD CHARS ARE OP NERF PL0X!!!
This post: best post.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:56:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 21/07/2009 16:56:46
Originally by: Barakkus What sux is when I go to lowsec looking to get blown up and offer myself up for a 1v1 or whatever, everytime someone looks at my info they decide better of it and don't bother blowing me up. Honestly, some of us really are pvp n00bs even after a couple years and can be taken down by 3 month old players. I was in Mara I think it was the other day and a couple people came and warped to the planet I was sitting at after announcing it and warped away immediately when I started approaching them...made me sad in the pants :(
I usually end up fighting against some HAC or BS in my rupture of lolfit and get blown up in 3 seconds :(
This is why you shouldn't be able to draw up a pilots personal files from browsing local. If you want intel on the guy go through your sources with the megacorporations.
We were handed too much intel back in the day, the map, the pilots, the belts, the works really. Getting handed too much without a corresponding effort put in leaves people jaded and many times defeatist, as they can see they're probably up against poor odds.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Corozan Aspinall
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Posted - 2009.07.21 23:29:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Lanissum
Instead, I'd like to suggest a few alternatives to purchasing an entire new character. 1. Instead of transfering the purchased character, the new character's skills (and assets, etc) are merged with yours, and the new character ceases to exist.
Pros: You get your SP's, they get their ISK, CCP gets more disk space, you don't have to trash your precious main.
Cons: Can't really think of any, although if you change your mind, it's not like you can just resell the char. (Well, you could, but then you'd basically be doing the same thing I'm trying to avoid here)
I think 'there can be only one' would become a new stock catchphrase for a whole new generation of vampiric serial liquidators if this was implemented. ;)
#2 is a great idea though.
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Darkeen
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.21 23:37:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Darkeen on 21/07/2009 23:37:35
Originally by: Leviathan9 Edited by: Leviathan9 on 19/07/2009 01:25:16 People seem to forget that "older" players started off as the "newer" player.. if the "newer" players want to catch up then they'll do so by putting in the amount the hours "older" players did and skill up in the same amount of time (give or take) as the "older" players did.. People just want a game where they can be uber good and have everything from the start.
Yes. This.
Generation Y should just go that way -> (WOW is here!)
UNfortunately I am not being humourous.
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Darkeen
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.21 23:47:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ohhh Matron Kids today!
They just expect it all with no effort. Plus for some reason young people seem to think that you are born with a quota of respect that must be...well..respected.
I've seen it at work. 17-18 year old new entrants that think its beneath them to do the filing and the post. No, they want to be project managing or running a dept!!
Its the same the world over. So few want to put the graft in or have any patience.
EXACTLY!
When I started studying to be a Computer programmer in 1989 we all thought - yeah in 3 years we'll be writing the next Doom (alas it was called Quake!) or wirint code to support a nuclear generator.
Alas real world kicks in and you find out you now qualified to be the janitor and occasinally the gopher for a group of computer programmers who still have their punch cards fomr all their previous projects......
PEOPLE, GROW UP, STOP WANTING INSTANT REWARDS (less than 30 years of HARD WORK is classed as an instant reward) AND DO THE WORK YOURSELF!
This applies to Eve. Stop whining and simply get into the damn game. Get that frigate, fit a point and kill things!
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.07.21 23:54:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Michwich In real life theres always a chance you can hit it big, catch up and even surpass the powers and families that be who have generations of wealth to their advantage.
When exploration probes and salvaging were introduced to the game, I created a new character to take advantage of it. With about 5 mil SP, he began ninja-salvaging in Motsu. One fine day, he warped into a mission he'd scanned down, and was hit by a smartbomb blast from a missioner in a Navy Issue Raven. CONCORD responded in an instant and vaporized the missioner's Raven. It dropped some phat Dread Guristas loot, and even the True Sansha smartbomb that did him in.
I was able to sell it all for nearly a billion isk.
Newbies can get a lucky break, too.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Faife
Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.22 01:50:00 -
[108]
catching up to older players: 1 - train for mwd2s 2 - train for interceptors 3 - put mwd on interceptor. chase after older player. point them. shoot them. kill them. -- Check out my EVE cartoons |
Daemonspirit
Sadistically Sinister
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Posted - 2009.07.22 03:58:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Abrazzar Just use two webs and any noob in a frigate should be able to catch up with any veteran.
No, wait... what was this thread about?
/win...
No matter what ship you fly, there is a max trainable ability with it. This ability is finite. Where the OP apparently will never catch up is skill/experience... because apparently he has a hard time trying...
/me looks at the Carrier skill plan... Yeah, I'll catch up!
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
BARF CHUNK
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Posted - 2009.07.22 04:02:00 -
[110]
SO MUCH FAIL
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.07.22 04:17:00 -
[111]
BECAUSE OF FALCON.
no, wait.
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Faife
Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.22 04:35:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Regat Kozovv BECAUSE OF FALCON.
no, wait.
BECAUSE OF RAPIER if anything -- Check out my EVE cartoons |
Harisdrop
Gallente Copia-WarRages Armaments Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2009.07.22 05:56:00 -
[113]
darn 03' players they ruin it for everyone!
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Xenophanes Colophon
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Posted - 2009.07.22 06:07:00 -
[114]
I'm a fairly new character(march). I absolutely love Eve precisely because you can't just power level. I tried many of the other mmorpgs and got bored of them within weeks(sometimes days). The learning curve in Eve is part of it's charm.
I started out thinking I needed to mine to get isk so that I could afford to pvp. Obviously I was wrong, and I wasted a fair amount of time training for something I don't use, and that's freaking great. It means that my mistake had a genuine consequence in the game. It took me training a few skills that I don't use to find what I really like. That searching and subsequent loss of training time adds to the Eve experience. Now I've found the gameplay that I prefer, 1v1 t1 frigate pvp and interceptor support in fleet pvp. The search was almost as rewarding as finding my niche. When I 1v1 I look for players with more playing time than myself. They are typically the best fights. Yes, I lose 4 out of 5 times, but that means that 1 out of 5 times I go out I kill somebody that's been playing the game typically for at least a year longer than I have.
I don't have maxed sp for my chosen play style. I can't use the best modules for my play style either. What I can do is come up with slightly different fits, play to my character's sp strengths, and work on my tactics. So yes, sp matters to a point, but it's not everything. My experience from pvping has made me far better than any amount of sp could.
This game isn't about instant gratification in the form of easy sp. Eve is, imo, the only mmorpg that really lives up to being truly multiplayer as it emphasizes player interaction over pve content. A solo player in Eve has more player interaction than a guild raid player does in WoW, even if they are primarilly mission runners and miners.
What the OP is pushing for would ruin the game. If it weren't for the black market I'd be against the sale of characters and gtc. Doing what the OP is suggeting would cause new players like myself to quit as well as a lot of older players, too. It'd end up being a game full of gtc sellers buying their way to maximizing their sp. Ofcourse they'd immediately hit the forums complaining about how a player like myself(5.5mil sp) blew up their ship.
Please, quit suggesting things that would make Eve just like every other mmorpg out there. It takes a long time and is hard for a reason.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.22 07:32:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 22/07/2009 07:33:55
Originally by: Ohhh Matron Kids today!
They just expect it all with no effort. Plus for some reason young people seem to think that you are born with a quota of respect that must be...well..respected.
I've seen it at work. 17-18 year old new entrants that think its beneath them to do the filing and the post. No, they want to be project managing or running a dept!!
Its the same the world over. So few want to put the graft in or have any patience.
I for one blame the hippies of the last generation. Their lazy ass raising techniques did not serve us well :P.
But seriously, even tho I might be considred young, I have noticed the same trend. And I belive the real root of it all lies in our currents societies focus on celeberties and popular trends. And these concepts are fed to our kids through ADs ever since they are born. "you are not compleate or happy until you own this newest phone/car/piece of cloth, or are as skinny as these anorexia modles" This is what ads really tells us, in a sometimes sublime way, and omtimes pretty straight forward. It affects our mentality.
I could write a book about the subject (I have an interest in this), but I do not really want to bother writing a book on the forums :P
Originally by: Xenophanes Colophon I'm a fairly new character(march). I absolutely love Eve precisely because you can't just power level. I tried many of the other mmorpgs and got bored of them within weeks(sometimes days). The learning curve in Eve is part of it's charm.
I started out thinking I needed to mine to get isk so that I could afford to pvp. Obviously I was wrong, and I wasted a fair amount of time training for something I don't use, and that's freaking great. It means that my mistake had a genuine consequence in the game. It took me training a few skills that I don't use to find what I really like. That searching and subsequent loss of training time adds to the Eve experience. Now I've found the gameplay that I prefer, 1v1 t1 frigate pvp and interceptor support in fleet pvp. The search was almost as rewarding as finding my niche. When I 1v1 I look for players with more playing time than myself. They are typically the best fights. Yes, I lose 4 out of 5 times, but that means that 1 out of 5 times I go out I kill somebody that's been playing the game typically for at least a year longer than I have.
I don't have maxed sp for my chosen play style. I can't use the best modules for my play style either. What I can do is come up with slightly different fits, play to my character's sp strengths, and work on my tactics. So yes, sp matters to a point, but it's not everything. My experience from pvping has made me far better than any amount of sp could.
This game isn't about instant gratification in the form of easy sp. Eve is, imo, the only mmorpg that really lives up to being truly multiplayer as it emphasizes player interaction over pve content. A solo player in Eve has more player interaction than a guild raid player does in WoW, even if they are primarilly mission runners and miners.
What the OP is pushing for would ruin the game. If it weren't for the black market I'd be against the sale of characters and gtc. Doing what the OP is suggeting would cause new players like myself to quit as well as a lot of older players, too. It'd end up being a game full of gtc sellers buying their way to maximizing their sp. Ofcourse they'd immediately hit the forums complaining about how a player like myself(5.5mil sp) blew up their ship.
Please, quit suggesting things that would make Eve just like every other mmorpg out there. It takes a long time and is hard for a reason.
Excelent attitude imo!
Same as me. I can actually fly a Hulk, and spnt time training for it. But the last year I have alost never used it :P.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.07.22 10:26:00 -
[116]
TL;DR
OFC older players cant be caught, but think of them as only being so good in any particular field.
Take a lvl basied game (lvl 70 being max), one set of abilitys one set of everything. Ever chars have the potential to be every kind of lvl 70 with enough time but as they can only fly one ship they are restricted to that particular set like the singluar lvl basied lvl 70 guy.
Hence any specialised player with lower sp will be as good as a player with every skill in game, in one specific ship.
This is what makes eve so great.
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Col Entreri
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Posted - 2009.07.22 10:38:00 -
[117]
How about this off the top of my head maybe a system of agent missions could be set up where the reward was extra points to use in your skill tree say for example an agent proficient in engineering gives you missions to complete for the bonus SP? I just thought of it as i was reading this thread so im sure you guys will point out the flaws in this but something to think about no?
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:22:00 -
[118]
The problem with that is it will lead to players feeling they have to do the missions. This game is designed deliberately to not force players to do one particular thing which is why even CCP said they regretted putting learning skill books in the game.
Really, some players miss the point of this game, its not to get the biggest and best ship, that's what WOW is about, its far more deep than that. Its why people like me say there are no levels as that's a very bad mentality to have in EVE as you will spend your whole time doing sod all.
I also see a lot where players seem to spend more time moaning about what they can't do than working out what they can do.
If a player is often stuck waiting for a skill then he is in the wrong game and needs to either stop playing or work out for himself what he likes to do and just do it. Unlike other games there are NO activates you cannot get involved in if you bother to look for it.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Col Entreri How about this off the top of my head maybe a system of agent missions could be set up where the reward was extra points to use in your skill tree say for example an agent proficient in engineering gives you missions to complete for the bonus SP?
It would encourage XP-grinding rather than actually playing the game (that's a bad thing), unless you make it a one-shot deal, in which case everyone would do it at once and we'd be back right where we started (making it a pointless addition). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Cerebus Alteri
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Posted - 2009.07.22 13:10:00 -
[120]
older player also started off with much less SP than new players these days. probably about a months less SP or so.
Older players also put points into skills that have been nerfed to hell, or changed greatly over the years.
Older player had much less info to rely on or a idea of what the future of eve would be unlike players now days. you can get info on what skills to max and when, how to balance your training, all you need to do is read a bit and ask question and have a general idea of what you want to do.
want to chatch up to older players? specialize in a ship class and work core skills for t2 modules and support. t2 mods and ships in general are much much cheaper now days to boot then when the older players were skilling up.
so newer player start off with more skill points, have a ton of info and tools to help them along, and everything is cheaper. sounds like they have it much better these days then most of us did a few years back. stop worrying about "catching up" that extra level in a few skills is not the difference in wow of say a warrior in greens and a warrior in t2 purples, and chances are older player are just purely more versatile then pwn you l33t.
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Col Entreri
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:30:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Col Entreri How about this off the top of my head maybe a system of agent missions could be set up where the reward was extra points to use in your skill tree say for example an agent proficient in engineering gives you missions to complete for the bonus SP?
It would encourage XP-grinding rather than actually playing the game (that's a bad thing), unless you make it a one-shot deal, in which case everyone would do it at once and we'd be back right where we started (making it a pointless addition).
not sure i agree with that, the idea in making it a mission based system makes it necessary to play the game as you would have to play the game to complete the missions and as for forcing people to do something they dont want well thats just wrong they can do it if they WANT to move the skills on faster but they dont have to its their decision just like i dont do agent mission for the rewards cos i dont want to same basic premise
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:31:00 -
[122]
You know why I like this game? It's because it takes so long to train stuff. It takes a while to fly T2 frigs (Interceptors/AF) well. It takes a while to fly T2 cruisers (Recons/HACS) well. It takes a while to fly T2 Battlecruisers (Command ships) well. Including the support skills, gunnery skills, missile skills.
If I had been told I could do all the about within 3 months of playing this game I would have canceled my subscription back in November of '06.
1. I would never buy someone elses character because I did not have a hand in the shaping of that character. It would not really be "mine". 2. I hate instant gratification when it comes to a game like Eve. Why not just play an FPS? 3. Sounds like #2 but slower.
Also, what makes people think that just because a player was created in '03, '04, or '05 that it makes that character uber? The person behind the keyboard may be totally clueless when it comes to playing the game. Having the skills and knowing how to use the skills are two different things. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Col Entreri
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:50:00 -
[123]
Im not trying to suggest that getting the bonus points should be easy in fact it should be bloody hard but as this thread is about ways to find ways to satisfy the new players coming into the game cos with out them the game will die eventually and no one wants that, but it will happen if new players are getting so frustrated they quit after first month. and im not a low skill player maoning about this subject I have a couple of very decent characters.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:57:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Col Entreri Im not trying to suggest that getting the bonus points should be easy in fact it should be bloody hard but as this thread is about ways to find ways to satisfy the new players coming into the game cos with out them the game will die eventually and no one wants that, but it will happen if new players are getting so frustrated they quit after first month. and im not a low skill player maoning about this subject I have a couple of very decent characters.
EvE is not a game for impatient people. There are dozens of other games which cater to the "hit level 80 in 6 weeks" crowd. There is only EvE for people who like to surmount a challenge. Rather than make EvE just like those other games, they can just go play those.
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Col Entreri
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:11:00 -
[125]
what i have suggested here will have no effect on the high level, high skill point people who play this game so i can only assume they just dont like the idea of not being the biggest and best which is a bit selfish. and to say this game is only for patient people is ridiculous
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Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:20:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Col Entreri what i have suggested here will have no effect on the high level, high skill point people who play this game so i can only assume they just dont like the idea of not being the biggest and best which is a bit selfish. and to say this game is only for patient people is ridiculous
Look at this guy, he thinks having the most SP makes you the best player.
Point and laugh. _______________
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:22:00 -
[127]
I've said this many times before and I think it warrants being said again.
The amount of SPs you need to catch up to older players is however many you have when you realize you're asking the wrong question.
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Timdog93
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:29:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Col Entreri Im not trying to suggest that getting the bonus points should be easy in fact it should be bloody hard but as this thread is about ways to find ways to satisfy the new players coming into the game cos with out them the game will die eventually and no one wants that, but it will happen if new players are getting so frustrated they quit after first month. and im not a low skill player maoning about this subject I have a couple of very decent characters.
So why is EVE GROWING in subscription numbers? Why does Tranquility always have more and more players online every year?
EVE is not dying, it is growing. Slowly, but it has seen consistent growth since its start.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:59:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Col Entreri not sure i agree with that, the idea in making it a mission based system makes it necessary to play the game as you would have to play the game to complete the missions
Yes, and that's where the idea fails. Grinding is not "playing the game" — it's doing tedious and irrelevant stuff because you need to.
Quote: they can do it if they WANT to move the skills on faster
And everyone would like that, but your implementation serves no other purpose than itself—it's a grind mechanism that is just there to make you grind. It detracts from the game that is EVE.
That's the beauty of the current skill system: it lets you progress as you play the actual game — it doesn't make the game into a struggle for progression. No matter what you do and enjoy, you keep learning your skills. You don't have to care about them in the slightest. All you have to care about is having fun.
Quote: Im not trying to suggest that getting the bonus points should be easy in fact it should be bloody hard
…and that just makes it even worse a grind and even more a choice between "do I want to have fun or do I want to grind."
Quote: this thread is about ways to find ways to satisfy the new players coming into the game
The best way of doing that is to teach them from the get-go that this is not a level based game. It has no classes. You cannot "max out". That "levelling up" (or its closest equivalent) has no purpose of its own. The thing that makes new players frustrated is the lack of information and guidance, which among other things makes them not realise these things. Education is the solution to that problem — not feeding their incorrect impressions.
Quote: what i have suggested here will have no effect on the high level, high skill point people who play this game
For one, there are no high level people in this game. For the other, a high number of skill points tells you nothing. For the third, you're quite incorrect: it will affect them since they will want to start grinding as well (and they'll be far more proficient at it than the newcomers), which only serves to reinforce the perceived differences and which will dillute the gameplay.
Again, I can take myself as an example: I have roughly 30mil SP at this point. It will take a new player just over a week to surpass me in terms of the classic "power level". After that week, I will have a hard time catching up to him (not that I need to, since his being a "higher level" doesn't make it any more difficult for me to blow him up).
The only problem here is perception and false assumptions about the game system. The only solution that is required is education. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:01:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Col Entreri what i have suggested here will have no effect on the high level, high skill point people who play this game so i can only assume they just dont like the idea of not being the biggest and best which is a bit selfish. and to say this game is only for patient people is ridiculous
simply put eve isn't a munchkin based game. if that's a problem for you perhaps you should consider moving on to a game you like.
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Blackfyre 001
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:44:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Blackfyre 001 on 22/07/2009 16:45:44 I recently posted a topic similar to this which I simply asked if I was doomed to always live in the shadows of older players. After honestly looking at all of the responses I came to the conclusion that I did not understand 'leveling' in EVE.
I had been thinking of leveling in EVE like this: Level 1 ----- Level 2 ----- Level 3 1 mil SP => 2 mil SP => 3 mil SP
What I did not understand was that leveling in EVE is more like this:
Leadership x5 => Wing Command x5 => Fleet Command x5
Leadership x1 => Armored Warefare x5 => Armored Warefare Specialist x5
I then realized that the only difference between me and an older player is the number of areas in which we are proficient. I could master all of my leadership skills to provide the same gang bonuses as someone who had been playing for a long time.
Since I wish to have options similar to the older players I have also started another account. This allows me to be on the same level (edit: have as many options) as someone 2x my character's age. As my characters grow in age this means that I am effectively catching up to the older players.
Essentially my 2 characters will have equivelant options as any single 2003 character by 2012 and this includes them continually advancing their character.
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Mors Magne
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:04:00 -
[132]
I have 88 million SP.
I'm really looking forward to having maxed Vagabond skills in a few months. It will not noticeably improve my performance to have completely maxed skills, I look forward to it because I'm slightly obsessional and perfectionist. The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:21:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Blackfyre 001 Edited by: Blackfyre 001 on 22/07/2009 16:45:44 I recently posted a topic similar to this which I simply asked if I was doomed to always live in the shadows of older players. After honestly looking at all of the responses I came to the conclusion that I did not understand 'leveling' in EVE.
I had been thinking of leveling in EVE like this: Level 1 ----- Level 2 ----- Level 3 1 mil SP => 2 mil SP => 3 mil SP
What I did not understand was that leveling in EVE is more like this:
Leadership x5 => Wing Command x5 => Fleet Command x5
Leadership x1 => Armored Warefare x5 => Armored Warefare Specialist x5
I then realized that the only difference between me and an older player is the number of areas in which we are proficient. I could master all of my leadership skills to provide the same gang bonuses as someone who had been playing for a long time.
Since I wish to have options similar to the older players I have also started another account. This allows me to be on the same level (edit: have as many options) as someone 2x my character's age. As my characters grow in age this means that I am effectively catching up to the older players.
Essentially my 2 characters will have equivelant options as any single 2003 character by 2012 and this includes them continually advancing their character.
May I advise that you train your 2nd account with a cyno alt and a trade/hauler alt.
Your "2nd main" should be skilled in roles that complement your primary main. Dont have 2 guys that do the same thing.
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