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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity Wicked Nation
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Posted - 2009.09.24 10:44:00 -
[31]
something that hasnt been brought up is that, assuming you cant tank the drone dps forever in an assault frig, if you are webbed and dont have a web of your own shooting down warriors is pretty damn hard. valks go down right quick. they do hit webbed targets hard though, so maybe it balances out. Reward small gang/solo pvp!
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 10:51:00 -
[32]
Hammerheads are better vs AB frigs, Valkyre usely come out on top vs MWD frigs and vs MWD ceptors(if they can catch the ceptor) mostly by her ability to keep up with them better and stay in range a bit longer till they fall back and need to mwd in range again...
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Roemy Schneider gallente have to admit they profited most from the speed nerf even if that may not fit into their drone whine routine *duck*
That's ok, because they were hit in the wedding vegetables by the web nerf.
Thats like saying Nano fittings profited the most from the speed nerf.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:02:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:04:03
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 05:25:58 Ed: Also, you had such fantastic information I'll forgive you for being an utter *******. :)
lol my apologies, I get defensive when I talk about math. Thanks for the info on the sig res, forgot to incorporate that.
Wait, did you just say 1 rad = 360 degrees?
because that's rather funny, seeing as it simply ISN'T TRUE.
a radial is the 'distance' travelled along the edge of a circle (arc) exactly equal to the length of the beam (beam being the length from center of circle to edge).
A circle consists of a total of 2 x PI rad, which boils down to approx. 6.28 rads. (meaning 3.14, PI, for a 180 degree half a circle) (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius for more info)
Regardless of that little mistake however, your logic is solid.
ok thank you for pointing that out, the term is radian though and it is the distance of an arc equal to the radius which you explained. The math is a little fuzzy as I found that it is equal to 180/pi and is always the same. This is actually a measurement of an angle which works out to be 57.2958 degrees. But you are right that it equals 6.28318306053 radians for a complete distance around the circumference. Sorry for that, I shouldn't have assumed. I think I just read that on a tracking guide back in the day and got it stuck in my head. But regardless the proportions work out and the tracking is better on a valkyrie even with sig res brought into consideration. But now I know, a radian equal 57.2958 degrees, so 1.44 radians per sec means that it will take 4.36 seconds for the gun on the valkyrie to make a 360 degree turn. Man, I can't believe I forgot that, it's like high school geometry. Thanks for the correction SFX Bladerunner. By the way, are you a Phillip K. **** fan? Reading "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" which is what Bladerunner is based off of.
Edit: Man, drone tracking seems to be pretty dumb as it seems they are constantly chasing keeping their transversal to nearly 0. Why is it so high and should this be nerfed or does it not really matter? -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid
Edit: Now I wonder, if 150's have 3x bonus shooting things under 30m but the valkyries track 4 times as well, does that make them still better at shooting frigs then 150s.
Sig resolution and tracking speed is essentially the same modifier in the hit chance formula. They are applied in the formula as the ratio Sig_res/tracking_speed. So a turret with the sig_res of 10 and the tracking speed of 0.01 has the same chance to hit something as a turret with the sig res of 100 and the tracking speed of 0.1, no matter the sig radius of the target.
Else one could be led to believe that a large turret never have more than 10% chance to hit something with the sig radious of 40. But f there is no angular velocity, it will always hit inside of optimal. Conversely, a small turret will still benefit from a target painter even when shooting a battleship that allready have a sig radius much larger than its sig resolution.
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Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:29:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:34:03 Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:30:50
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid
Edit: Now I wonder, if 150's have 3x bonus shooting things under 30m but the valkyries track 4 times as well, does that make them still better at shooting frigs then 150s.
Sig resolution and tracking speed is essentially the same modifier in the hit chance formula. They are applied in the formula as the ratio Sig_res/tracking_speed. So a turret with the sig_res of 10 and the tracking speed of 0.01 has the same chance to hit something as a turret with the sig res of 100 and the tracking speed of 0.1, no matter the sig radius of the target.
Else one could be led to believe that a large turret never have more than 10% chance to hit something with the sig radious of 40. But f there is no angular velocity, it will always hit inside of optimal. Conversely, a small turret will still benefit from a target painter even when shooting a battleship that allready have a sig radius much larger than its sig resolution.
Man, what would be the unit on that proportion for sig rad/tracking speed? m/(rad/s) I don't even know what to do with that number. I wonder if that ratio is right and if it is what does that number mean in term of if i can hit it. Say I have 40 m sig rad with .35 rad/s tracking. that would give me a number of 114.28 m/(rad/s). What does that even mean? Something is fishy here.
Edit: CCP needs to speak up on this and help us understand this relationship because after this thread, I am more confused about tracking then ever in terms of having a numerical value to represent my chance to hit something. How do I reach a percentage? I know I would have to incorporate range, tracking speed and sig radius but how do these values affect each other and how do I reach that final percentage without collecting a ****load of data and comparing them on a graph? -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:30:50
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid
Edit: Now I wonder, if 150's have 3x bonus shooting things under 30m but the valkyries track 4 times as well, does that make them still better at shooting frigs then 150s.
Sig resolution and tracking speed is essentially the same modifier in the hit chance formula. They are applied in the formula as the ratio Sig_res/tracking_speed. So a turret with the sig_res of 10 and the tracking speed of 0.01 has the same chance to hit something as a turret with the sig res of 100 and the tracking speed of 0.1, no matter the sig radius of the target.
Else one could be led to believe that a large turret never have more than 10% chance to hit something with the sig radious of 40. But f there is no angular velocity, it will always hit inside of optimal. Conversely, a small turret will still benefit from a target painter even when shooting a battleship that allready have a sig radius much larger than its sig resolution.
Man, what would be the unit on that proportion for sig rad/tracking speed? m/(rad/s) I don't even know what to do with that number. I wonder if that ratio is right and if it is what does that number mean in term of if i can hit it. Say I have 40 m sig rad with .35 rad/s tracking. that would give me a number of 114.28 m/(rad/s). What does that even mean? Something is fishy here.
Your interpretation of what he's saying is all wrong, HE is right though.
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Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:35:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:35:36 Marko Riva Your interpretation of what he's saying is all wrong, HE is right though.
Then help me understand. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Man, what would be the unit on that proportion for sig rad/tracking speed? m/(rad/s) I don't even know what to do with that number. I wonder if that ratio is right and if it is what does that number mean in term of if i can hit it. Say I have 40 m sig rad with .35 rad/s tracking. that would give me a number of 114.28 m/(rad/s). What does that even mean? Something is fishy here.
Well, it's only a partial modifier. You need to look at the bigger picture of the tracking formula to understand how it's used.
Chance to hit = 0.5^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
Setting the range modifier aside for a moment, because we assume that everything happens at below optimal, what we're looking at is the size- and movement modifier (here coloured in red). What you have is two ratios: on the one hand the targets angular velocity compared to the turret's tracking speed, on the other hand, the turret's signature resolution compared to the target's signature radius. What you end up with is a dimensionless number (rad/s / rad/s + m/m).
It's also worth noting that exactly matching the guns' capabilities with the attributes of the target only means that you have a 50% chance of hitting — to get more than that, your guns need to perform better than the target currently does (most commonly by having a very low angular velocity). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tippia most commonly by having a very low angular velocity.
Or by attacking an oversized target as it equates to the same thing.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.24 12:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Marko Riva
Originally by: Tippia most commonly by having a very low angular velocity.
Or by attacking an oversized target as it equates to the same thing.
Weeell… yes, it does mostly the same thing, but there's a critical difference: angular velocity can be zero, giving you a 100% hit chance (inside optimal), whereas signature resolution cannot. So if you really want to bump up your chances to hit, reducing transversal will get you a lot farther than fitting small guns ever can or will.
The best you can do with the sig res/sig rad part of the formula is use a small turret (40m sig res) against a Leviathan (16,590m sig rad), but that still leaves you with a factor of .0024, which menas a 0.2% chance of a miss… against a titan.
Reduce angular velocity to zero, on the other hand, and suddenly, nothing else matters. Tracking, signature resolution, signature radius — it all becomes irrelevant. Your chance to hit is 100%. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.09.24 12:11:00 -
[41]
If someone's doing an empirical test on this, it would be interesting to see the results of a painter vs a web for these Valkyries. Makes me wonder if the addition of painter(s) would skew the anti-frigate (non-inty) weapon of choice from Warrior to Valkyries. |
SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 12:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:14:57 Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:04:03
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 05:25:58 Ed: Also, you had such fantastic information I'll forgive you for being an utter *******. :)
lol my apologies, I get defensive when I talk about math. Thanks for the info on the sig res, forgot to incorporate that.
Wait, did you just say 1 rad = 360 degrees?
because that's rather funny, seeing as it simply ISN'T TRUE.
a radial is the 'distance' travelled along the edge of a circle (arc) exactly equal to the length of the beam (beam being the length from center of circle to edge).
A circle consists of a total of 2 x PI rad, which boils down to approx. 6.28 rads. (meaning 3.14, PI, for a 180 degree half a circle) (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius for more info)
Regardless of that little mistake however, your logic is solid.
ok thank you for pointing that out, the term is radian though and it is the distance of an arc equal to the radius which you explained. The math is a little fuzzy as I found that it is equal to 180/pi and is always the same. This is actually a measurement of an angle which works out to be 57.2958 degrees. But you are right that it equals 6.28318306053 radians for a complete distance around the circumference. Sorry for that, I shouldn't have assumed. I think I just read that on a tracking guide back in the day and got it stuck in my head. But regardless the proportions work out and the tracking is better on a valkyrie even with sig res brought into consideration. But now I know, a radian equal 57.2958 degrees, so 1.44 radians per sec means that it will take 4.36 seconds for the gun on the valkyrie to make a 360 degree turn. Man, I can't believe I forgot that, it's like high school geometry. Thanks for the correction SFX Bladerunner. By the way, are you a Phillip K. **** fan? Reading "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" which is what Bladerunner is based off of.
Edit: Man, drone tracking seems to be pretty dumb as it seems they are constantly chasing keeping their transversal to nearly 0. Why is it so high and should this be nerfed or does it not really matter?
I love Edits: Why did CCP do this to us?
Funny you should ask,
I actually STUDY Artificial Intelligence at university __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:19:00 -
[43]
lol I can't believe the forums censored D ick in Phillip K. D ick. I understand its in a database that the software for the forum automatically censors but it's just funny. What if my name was D ick. Plus just censoring his name is funny because he was a very critical man of the government due to his crippling paranoia. Great writer though, wouldn't have a Scanner Darkly or Minority Report if it wasn't for him. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:31:00 -
[44]
Well, it's only a partial modifier. You need to look at the bigger picture of the tracking formula to understand how it's used.
Chance to hit = 0.5^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
Setting the range modifier aside for a moment, because we assume that everything happens at below optimal, what we're looking at is the size- and movement modifier (here coloured in red). What you have is two ratios: on the one hand the targets angular velocity compared to the turret's tracking speed, on the other hand, the turret's signature resolution compared to the target's signature radius. What you end up with is a dimensionless number (rad/s / rad/s + m/m).
It's also worth noting that exactly matching the guns' capabilities with the attributes of the target only means that you have a 50% chance of hitting ù to get more than that, your guns need to perform better than the target currently does (most commonly by having a very low angular velocity).
yeah that makes perfect sense, thanks for the formula. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:16:00 -
[45]
Edited by: BiggestT on 24/09/2009 14:17:01
Originally by: Tippia
Chance to hit = 0.5^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
Hmm so concerning the: ^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
part, is it possible to achieve a negative result? or a zero result?
negative or zero result wld = 100% (or higher) chance! (Is this possible?)
It seems doubtful however if the (red section) was v. small, and the range was small, and the modifier high, it may be possible...(unless those brackets don't refer to double brackets, and instead the absolute value..)?
EVE Trivia EVE History
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:38:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tippia on 24/09/2009 14:39:52
Originally by: BiggestT Hmm so concerning the: ^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
part, is it possible to achieve a negative result? or a zero result?
You get a zero result if (and only if) angular velocity is zero — that is, if you're travelling parallel to the target and at the same speed, or if the target is heading directly towards or away from you along the same axis of travel as you.
You cannot get a negative result since all the involved values are positive (and even if they were, the whole term is squared at the end, so the result is the same). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 24/09/2009 14:39:52
Originally by: BiggestT Hmm so concerning the: ^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
part, is it possible to achieve a negative result? or a zero result?
You get a zero result if (and only if) angular velocity is zero ù that is, if you're travelling parallel to the target and at the same speed, or if the target is heading directly towards or away from you along the same axis of travel as you.
You cannot get a negative result since all the involved values are positive (and even if they were, the whole term is squared at the end, so the result is the same).
There isn;t a power affecting the last part tho..[range-modifier]
So the [range-modifier] is an absolute value then? Else if angular velocity was zero, and range was say 2, and modifier was 4 (<-possible?)then ur hit chance wld most likley be over 100% e.g. 0.5^-2 = 4 (400% lol)
Unless modifier is always a decimal..However if it was a decimal, then u cld never get 100% chance to hit..(wld always be a positive result, unless under ranges less than 1km)
Wait, what excactly does modifier represent again? xD EVE Trivia EVE History
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2009.09.24 17:15:00 -
[48]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 24/09/2009 14:39:52
Originally by: BiggestT Hmm so concerning the: ^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
part, is it possible to achieve a negative result? or a zero result?
You get a zero result if (and only if) angular velocity is zero ù that is, if you're travelling parallel to the target and at the same speed, or if the target is heading directly towards or away from you along the same axis of travel as you.
You cannot get a negative result since all the involved values are positive (and even if they were, the whole term is squared at the end, so the result is the same).
There isn;t a power affecting the last part tho..[range-modifier]
So the [range-modifier] is an absolute value then? Else if angular velocity was zero, and range was say 2, and modifier was 4 (<-possible?)then ur hit chance wld most likley be over 100% e.g. 0.5^-2 = 4 (400% lol)
Unless modifier is always a decimal..However if it was a decimal, then u cld never get 100% chance to hit..(wld always be a positive result, unless under ranges less than 1km)
Wait, what excactly does modifier represent again? xD
range modifier = ((max(0, range - optimal))/falloff)^2
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.24 18:30:00 -
[49]
Well i can only say mediums vs frigs are crap. I was engaging typhoon in my hound solo. He had full rack of t2 valks in space (dunno skills) i had AB (around 900m/s, was rigged) and MSE. It took him my whole arbalest launcher clip till he brought me to ~15% shield. So thats around 3 minutes.
My other combat with hobgoblins (same setup) lasted around 20-30 seconds after which i popped ;p Considering damage types i guess warriors t2 would kill me in 1 minute tops. So yeah mediums vs bomber (and guess frigs) are just useless.
Whats funnier i had similiar effectiveness vs frigs while using zerkers like when using valks (thats for pve perspective but should be similiar to non-AB frig). effective time to kill frig was more-less same.
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NxN
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Posted - 2009.09.24 19:02:00 -
[50]
Hmm.. so could anyone advice on when to web or not when using drones?
I guess, it depends on target size (sig size?) and type of drones I use?
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.24 19:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: NxN Hmm.. so could anyone advice on when to web or not when using drones?
I guess, it depends on target size (sig size?) and type of drones I use?
I tend to web, but I tend to be shooting them too.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
NxN
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Posted - 2009.09.24 19:12:00 -
[52]
Makes sense |
Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 19:15:00 -
[53]
Originally by: NxN Hmm.. so could anyone advice on when to web or not when using drones?
I guess, it depends on target size (sig size?) and type of drones I use?
Target size vs drone size, drone tracking, is the target trying to run away or not and/or too fast to be left unwebbed.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.24 19:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: NxN Hmm.. so could anyone advice on when to web or not when using drones?
I guess, it depends on target size (sig size?) and type of drones I use?
Generally its better to web especially against MWDing oponents. Low speed + huge sig = pop (and in this case even med/large drones can pretty much instapop frigs). Vs AB not sure...
Might be worth vs AFs actually when you use heavies to keep its speed down to just above heavies orbit speed. When they start to catch up they tend to do 1-2 shots at range which can cripple frigs (wreck at 500? ;p).
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.09.25 01:01:00 -
[55]
In my experience properly skilled for T2 mediums tend to shred T1 AB frigates once webbed, possibly even when not, like Liang I tend to be shooting at what I'm webbing aswell. Sometimes you lose a drone, at worst maybe two.
This being said I tend to use lights anyway vs frigates, not for any scientific reason but rather just because I've always done it that way and it seems to do the trick as well as the mediums vs the non-mwd frigs.
As for how it'll look after the AB changes I dare not say since I still haven't seen any actual numbers on their speed yet. I also suspect that the difference between the various AF's will be fairly sizable and as such it may even vary which type of drone will be the most effective.
In any case, this thread was a fairly interesting read.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.25 02:02:00 -
[56]
My question is basically BC with 1 x Med Neut II (12.6km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig BS with 1x Heavy Neut II (25.2km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig How well would this combination do in detering any solo frigs from tackling? I am assuming the frig could easily escape. I am more interested in the deterrence effect - could a frig counter this defence and how.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.09.25 02:31:00 -
[57]
Either way I'm confident that the drone bonused Cruisers will do just fine still, question is how the turret and missile based ones will fare.
It's something that's made me think twice about training Minmatar Cruiser V on my alt. Amarr or Gallente may prove to be the wiser choice, at least seing how I'm a big fan of flying T1 Cruisers.
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Leather Jack
Kernite Commando
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Posted - 2009.09.25 08:06:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Leather Jack on 25/09/2009 08:09:03
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 25/09/2009 02:48:53 My question is basically Scenario 1: BC with 1 x Med Neut II (12.6km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig Scenario 2: BS with 1x Heavy Neut II (25.2km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig Assume BC/BS has a Warp Disruptor II (24km range) Would this defeat or drive off AB AFs, MWD AFs and MWD Inties equipped to tank Warriors
Equations and whatnot asides... Pre med-drone-nerf (40m sig res) Valk's was awesome against frigs and made ****loads of damage to them. Post med-drone-nerf (125m sig res) their damage agains frigs was effectively reduced by 41% due to sig res changes.
If I were to fly against valks in a frigate, I would still sure as hell stear clear of them unless I'm packing enough heat to kill them or speed to keep them at bay. They still have a good chance of being a PITA for any tackler. That said, I feel more comfy being chased by valks in my inty than being buthurt by warriors.
Edit: reading comprehension ftl (and minor edit failure)
If I were tanked against warriors in my inty, I'd just laugh and point my indexfinger to the valks.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.25 11:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 25/09/2009 02:48:53 My question is basically Scenario 1: BC with 1 x Med Neut II (12.6km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig Scenario 2: BS with 1x Heavy Neut II (25.2km range) and 5 x Valk IIs vs Solo frig Assume BC/BS has a Warp Disruptor II (24km range) Would this defeat or drive off AB AFs, MWD AFs and MWD Inties equipped to tank Warriors
No it would not. If you used warriors then maybe. Tougher AFs like ishkur/vengeance will still kill drones and then kill you. Jag can ignore drones or just passive tank them long enough to pop either you or drones.
And yes im talking about warriors coz valks are just made out of fail vs frigs and intys.
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fmercury
Club Bear
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Posted - 2009.09.25 11:39:00 -
[60]
Valks will tear webbed frigs/afs/inties to pieces.
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