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Hasiki
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Posted - 2010.06.29 00:46:00 -
[1]
Is there a training course so to speak for pvp? I am looking for one that will go through the basics and work its way up to FC training?
I am not sure if Agony Unleashed are still in operation or if they offer that complete training.
And also dont waste everyones time by posting I'll train you for x00 mill. You're not funny, and my pre-emptive strike makes any attempt less funnier. Just looking for corps that offer courses, or possible feedback from any AU trainees.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.29 01:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/06/2010 01:00:55 http://www.agony-unleashed.com/wiki/index.php?title=Agony_Empire_Classes_and_Seminars
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Tongxuemen
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Posted - 2010.06.29 01:18:00 -
[3]
Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/06/2010 01:00:55 http://www.agony-unleashed.com/wiki/index.php?title=Agony_Empire_Classes_and_Seminars
Wow, thats super helpful.
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Allyson Vannote
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.06.29 02:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tongxuemen Edited by: Tongxuemen on 29/06/2010 01:44:52
Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/06/2010 01:00:55 http://www.agony-unleashed.com/wiki/index.php?title=Agony_Empire_Classes_and_Seminars
Wow, thats super helpful.
I don't know what he's on about but really, just a link to something he already mentions?
and then goes on to say that he doesent know if they're still around or even doing such.... |
Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.29 07:33:00 -
[5]
Agony is still doing classes afaik, but they do cost money from what I heard last.
You could try EVE uni, they're free and teach most aspects of PVP
This is from what I've heard though, I've never actually used either ------------------------
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Barrak
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.06.29 14:00:00 -
[6]
Agony are still doing course and I think they have several this thursday, friday and saturday..... though at this late stage I would imagine that all places areboooked.....though, that said, I did get the impression that this is going to be a large session.
I was a memeber of their corp for around six months until my game play ceased.
They run great learning session In this life (Eve) dying is easy, its living thats hard.
Talent does not count, its what you do with it that does |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.29 14:05:00 -
[7]
Join RvB or FW and go lose some ships ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.29 14:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Raimo Join RvB or FW and go lose some ships
Qhile a good spot for quick and repeated killing/being killed, RvB doesn't do lessons/teaching. So that wouldn't really help him ------------------------
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.29 14:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Raimo Join RvB or FW and go lose some ships
Qhile a good spot for quick and repeated killing/being killed, RvB doesn't do lessons/teaching. So that wouldn't really help him
I see NC being experts at getting good at PVP ITT
I bolded the important bits, he does not need lessons.
---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.29 21:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Raimo Join RvB or FW and go lose some ships
Qhile a good spot for quick and repeated killing/being killed, RvB doesn't do lessons/teaching. So that wouldn't really help him
I see NC being experts at getting good at PVP ITT
I bolded the important bits, he does not need lessons.
I think Raimo's point bears repeating.
We may not teach PVP in RVB in an organized fashion like Agony does with classes and study material but if you join you will learn to PVP.
What we provide is far more valuable than any amount of classwork or theory and that is lots and lots of combat time.
Because all the theory in the world isn't going to do you a damned bit of good if you freeze up or panic when your ship starts being torn apart around you. And the only cure for that is repeated experience.
For instance the first few PVP engagements I was in I made all sorts of stupid mistakes because I was so adrenaline flushed that it was all I could do to hit orbit and turn on my guns. Forget about manual flying or tactical bookmarks or tactics and capabilities/weaknesses of various ships and fits.
Today I'm a fairly competent pilot. My KD ratio went from like 3 to 1 to more in the range of 10 to 1. I still suck at the solo stuff (need to practice more) but I'm giving people good fights and am actually able to process what worked and what didn't and learn from my mistakes.
Now I'd like to try the Agony course someday I've read read a lot of good stuff about it. But there really is no substitute for actually getting out and blowing up ships and having ships shot out from under you.
RVB is a very good environment to do that in. We have a good group of people on both teams who are interested in having good fights.
Our no podding rule makes it generally safer for you too keep your good implants in. Safer of course does not mean safe rules sometimes get broken we also face a pretty regular stream of 3rd party war targets who neither follow nor are protected by our rules.
You'll get advice on fitting and tactics and then get to actually go out and put that advice into practice to test it's efficacy.
Most of our combat is small gang Frig/cruiser level stuff but we do occasionally break out the big toys and do BS/BC brawls. There is also a ton of solo opportunity. One of our few rules is that we are expected to honor 1v1s so it's not uncommon for people to arrange individual matches on moons and planets (we generally advise not to hold those in high traffic area's so people passing by don't think that they're helping out a corpie and screw up a 1v1).
I've been at it a couple months now and I'm still having a blast.
I do suggest bringing plenty of ISK. A good combat frig is going to run you about 6-8 million isk and a cruiser 30 or so. Because it won't take you long to figure out the value of rigs.
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.30 03:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 30/06/2010 03:28:16
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Raimo
I see NC being experts at getting good at PVP ITT
I bolded the important bits, he does not need lessons.
I see HYDRA being experts at reading the OP ITT
I bolded the important bits, he asked about lessons.
Quote: Is there a training course so to speak for pvp? I am looking for one that will go through the basics and work its way up to FC training?
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Scorpionidae
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Posted - 2010.06.30 06:31:00 -
[12]
I've got an idea go to low sec find someone to fight and fight them. Then keep doing that.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.30 07:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shade Millith
I see HYDRA being experts at reading the OP ITT
I bolded the important bits, he asked about lessons.
And I told him that he is misguided. The nature of EVE PVP means that a few lessons won't do jack ****, the only way to learn to be any good is to PVP a ton, risk a lot of cheap ships and read all the stuff you will find on different forums, blogs et al. (which is the bit they'd teach at those lessons but infinitely more useful after you've started asking the right questions)
Also, Agony or EVE university are not exactly the pr0 tier PVPrs around either...
(Actually, a few Genos guys have been giving soloing lessons, 1v1's with fitting and tactics advice for ISK but you might probably want to lose a hundred rifters first for those to be of any use either - also with all the Utu money pouring out of their ears I'm not sure if they CBA anymore :D ) ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.30 07:54:00 -
[14]
If you dont find the guides satisfactory, I do offer classes that don't require you to change corps or even attend for more than one day. Agony does the same. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 07:55:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 30/06/2010 07:58:30 Personally, I'd recommend the agony courses.
They won't tie you down by forcing you to join a new corp (EVE Uni, RvB and FW)
They lead real fleets with intelligent FCs from what I've heard that actually use good tactics, rather than fly around in an unorganized rabble throwing bodies ships at the enemy (FW and RvB)
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.30 08:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: FeralShadow If you dont find the guides satisfactory, I do offer classes that don't require you to change corps or even attend for more than one day. Agony does the same.
FeralShadow's Combat Record - Ranked #24,112 ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.30 09:17:00 -
[17]
So the OP wants stuff for free and after he leeched the info he'll leave. Give us a good reason why people should invest time and effort into you if they know beforehand they won't gain anything from it?
----------- Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.30 09:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hasiki
And also dont waste everyones time by posting I'll train you for x00 mill. You're not funny, and my pre-emptive strike makes any attempt less funnier. Just looking for corps that offer courses, or possible feedback from any AU trainees.
Oh sorry didn't see this - well I wasn't offering any anyway. Just pointing it out that some of the very best PVPers in the game might actually be willing to do stuff like that to non- ******s, where it will definitely be worth every penny unlike the bad troll/ bad PVPer above. We're talking about a whole different league to Agony courses as well btw. Unless something like that I wouldn't worry about getting "lectured", so many bad PVPers in the game, so many ways to learn wrong.
Originally by: Marko Riva So the OP wants stuff for free and after he leeched the info he'll leave. Give us a good reason why people should invest time and effort into you if they know beforehand they won't gain anything from it?
To get more targets in to the game? ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Hasiki
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Posted - 2010.06.30 11:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Marko Riva So the OP wants stuff for free and after he leeched the info he'll leave. Give us a good reason why people should invest time and effort into you if they know beforehand they won't gain anything from it?
Where'd I say I wanted anything free? I just don't want any one on one with randomers cos lets face it, 99% are scams. I have ISK, this is an alt, and read the OP before posting.
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ROXGenghis
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Posted - 2010.06.30 13:34:00 -
[20]
I see that the OP had a handful of kills and losses (7 and 10, respectively) on Battleclinic back in 2007. Just curious: have you been playing that long without PVPing or are you inexperienced (account was inactive for 3 years or recently bought)?
I ask because your experience level matters. Agony's PVP-BASIC class is perfect for a PvP newbie and should be taken before you go out to practice on your own by soloing in lowsec or joining RvB. Later on you can get more value out of Agony's other classes, like PVP-WOLFPACKS, PVP-ADVANCED, and PVP-COVOPS.
My point being there's no substitute for actual PvP, but you can accelerate your learning curve by getting pointers as well.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.06.30 16:29:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Othran on 30/06/2010 16:29:37
Originally by: Raimo
And I told him that he is misguided. The nature of EVE PVP means that a few lessons won't do jack ****, the only way to learn to be any good is to PVP a ton, risk a lot of cheap ships and read all the stuff you will find on different forums, blogs et al. (which is the bit they'd teach at those lessons but infinitely more useful after you've started asking the right questions)
Up to a point you're right and I really don't think anyone can teach people to solo. Yeah you can do the fits etc but lots of people simply don't like going out on their own, regardless of what you show them. They need people around them to feel confident about fighting - everyone is different. I don't particularly like big gangs as I find them mainly boring but I appreciate others feel differently.
The Agony classes pass on stuff that you'd consider basic - positional stuff like off-grid tacs etc which the average player has no clue about. There's a load of decent stuff on overview tabs etc, ECM, bubbles and so on. I'm certain that material which conveys the same info is available elsewhere but its nicely collated and presented in the Agony wiki - and there is a ton of stuff.
Horses for courses - by the time you get into Genos then you know plenty anyway and it is sometimes hard to remember that there's a vertical wall of info to be decent at PvP. Or at least that's how it appears to someone starting out.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who gets more people into PvP has my support.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.02 13:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 30/06/2010 08:03:00
Personally, I'd recommend the agony courses.
They won't tie you down by forcing you to join a new corp (EVE Uni, RvB and FW)
They lead real fleets with intelligent FCs from what I've heard, rather than fly around in an unorganized rabble throwing bodies ships at the enemy (FW and RvB)
Gotta love it when someone with 39 more kills than deaths mostly in blobs talks **** about someone else being rabble who just throw ships at the enemy.
Like I said earlier I personally have heard good things about the Agony courses and some day I'd like to check them out.
But all that theory is going to fly right out the window when you first engage an enemy. Admittedly they do some actual roaming in their training but then what you're going to learn beyond the basics is going to be a matter of luck. Further one evening of flying around isn't going to get you a lot of combat experience unless you are real lucky.
I am a booster and recruiter for RVB I'm not pretending I'm not. But you definitely don't know what the hell you're talking about if you think we don't have intelligent FC's who lead real fleets who use actual tactics and strategy.
Yes we do a fair amount of more contrived organized fights where we make efforts to make things even. But we also do our fair share of more traditional gankage and more normalized PVP.
You'll see pretty much everything other than capitals fielded. Just because most people fly T1 frigs and cruisers doesn't mean that people don't break out the Macherials and Dramiels now and then.
You'll also see a wide variety of hulls in use and gain familiarity with their capabilities and weaknesses. Which is probably one of the most valuable bits of experience you can get since 90% of PVP is knowing what to engage and when.
The sheer volume of combat you get into assures that you will improve (or you will go broke). I got more kills yesterday than you did in the last 7 and I that was what I consider a very slow night.
Our fights also have a tendency to be more in the vein of 10 v 10 or 15 v 15 rather than 15 v 1, So pilot skill (including fitting) comes more into play than in most of the gankfests I see on the BC killboards.
One of the things I always like to point out as an advantage we have is that if you want to try something new you can just go out and do it and if it doesn't work make adjustments and go test it again instead of having to hope you might be able to find another similar target again.
You can see real effects of various fitting options in short order. For example a month or so back we reds were getting our asses handed to us rather handily by blues for a few days. When we analysed the killboards the cause turned out to be a lot of new pilots who weren't fitting their ships well and flying without rigs or with empty slots. We pushed them to start rigging their ships in one case I even put the trimarks on a guys punisher myself since he didn't have the skill trained. After the battle flew immediately over to channace and bought his rigging books because he had first hand immediate feedback in a similar situation to show him the difference.
You can get solo 1 on 1 skills too. I'm still working on that my self as I kind of suck at soloing atm. One of the great things about RVB though is that people do honor 1v1s and there are almost always people around willing to fight you. And after they dispatch you they will chat with you about what you did wrong and right and give you advise for the future. Then you can turn around refit and find someone else to test those lessons on it short order.
Yeah it's kind of controlled but real milataries don't hand you a rifle, drop you off in a combat zone and expect you to just pick it up. You train in a controlled environment so that you will learn the skills you need in real combat.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:13:00 -
[23]
Exactly the reasons why I recommended RvB (Though haven't seen it first hand for a while) ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Mopsy Six
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Posted - 2010.07.02 14:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mopsy Six on 02/07/2010 14:59:53 Short an simple: Read a good piracy guide, there's one on the forums. It'll teach you about timers, overview setups, directional scanner, all that basic, but very important jazz. Then you buy 20 or more Rifters. Fit them with T1/named modules, cookie cutter setups (you'll have alot of time to figure what's good for you, for now just learn the ropes). Go into low security space and attack antything. That's how i did it (playing about a year ago).
You'll learn quickly how to scan ships down, to never warp anywhere without spamming the directional. What ships can track you, what can kite you, what is good against what in general. You'll warp on a gate with GCC and remember not to do it ever again. You'll get blobed 100 times, so you'll remember to watch local and your directional etc. etc. It's not as much about the love of killing, it's about the hatred of dying constantly.
That's how i did it and i'm constantly learning, what matters is that you go into fight with the will to learn something and not FOTM l33t pwn n00bz.
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Skallebank
Minmatar Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.07.02 20:04:00 -
[25]
If i were starting out in pvp , and know what I know now, I'd do a few agony courses then join eve uni for 6 months or so while pvping in cheap stuff over and over and over and over ect. By then u should be 10-15m sp and can join a pvp corp.
Mind you , you can learn it all yourself if you have the time and patience , courses just speed up your learning and thus are pretty cool.
Oh and to the hydra troll, numbers on bc honestly mean jack **** , did u ever consider the guy might have a real life ? hmm then again that would be a higher though process .
vote institiute for csm. He will do sexy things to you. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:49:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Raimo on 03/07/2010 05:54:30
Originally by: Skallebank If i were starting out in pvp , and know what I know now, I'd do a few agony courses then join eve uni for 6 months or so while pvping in cheap stuff over and over and over and over ect. By then u should be 10-15m sp and can join a pvp corp.
Mind you , you can learn it all yourself if you have the time and patience , courses just speed up your learning and thus are pretty cool.
Oh and to the hydra troll, numbers on bc honestly mean jack **** , did u ever consider the guy might have a real life ? hmm then again that would be a higher though process .
I was not trolling you asshat (to me it seems like you are but I'll bite), just merely pointing out that paying for PVP classes where the instructor is obviously severely mediocre at PVP might not be the best of ideas. You might think that BC rank has no meaning but it is still an indication, as a rule of thumb if you have not made it in to the top 10.000 and have more than a few hundred kills you have to be really, really bad at this game, a horrible blobber, or both...
Also BC rank and real life need not be mutually exclusive (remember BC does not reward kill amounts, scoring a few "hard" kills is much more valuable there than getting 50 ganks), x father of 2 small kids and business owner, BC Rank #119 as of this writing ;) ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.07.03 07:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Raimo remember BC does not reward kill amounts, scoring a few "hard" kills is much more valuable there than getting 50 ganks
I dont know, I havent seen a killboard with a decent scoring system yet.
I actually tend to get the most points for complete ganks, in particular I remember getting a ridiculous amount of points for killing a Rokh in a Claw, while the most difficult thing in that fight was convincing the guy he wouldnt get insurance if he self-destructs. Besides having enough ammo that is.
On the other hand, in a recent engagement fighting 24 battlecruisers with 6 HACs/Recons the killboard apparently decided we blobbed the individual targets and I didnt get many points, despite it being a pretty difficult fight.
Sure rankings are some kind of indication, but I've met people in the bc top 100 that honestly couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and at the same time some extremely resourceful pilots that barely had 300 kills and a 10k+ ranking.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:01:00 -
[28]
Ofc it is all relative, and the killmail system severally limits the accuracy of killboards showing what really happened.
However, as for your 1st example, everyone who is decent at frigs get to kill a ****fit BC/ BS that has no frig defenses or is caught at a wrong place at a wrong time alone. If it was a bait fit or even a "serious" solo PVP fit you would have been in a much different situation, no? Also you need to account for the risk of him getting help as it takes a while etc.
And things like your 2nd example happen ofc all the time as well *to most people* so it tends to even out.
Also I'd say most of the pilots in the top 100 do deserve to be there skillwise, but of course there are capable pilots with lesser rankings as well. I said *indication*, and it's good at that IMHO. ---------- www.eve-arena.com
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Final Agony B A N E
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 03/07/2010 11:34:44
I think my point was it is a lot easier to farm killboard rank by hunting weak targets solo than to do so in evenly matched gang fights or even outnumbered.
Personally I dont give much about killboard stats anyway for that reason and the simple fact that there are so many alts, mains get sold sometimes, then there are the players that scored a ton of points early in the game but didnt really manage to adapt to recent changes and so on.
As far as pvp lessons go, its not a bad idea in itself since not everything can be learned on the battlefield, or rather is much easier being told by someone who already knows.
The bad thing about organized lessons though is the fact that many new players tend to get dragged along with the veterans, and as such never learn to fight on their own.
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Skallebank
Minmatar Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:34:00 -
[30]
You are right to a degree. Many people I've talked to say bc is the most accurate indicator of prowess , and perhaps it is. All I know is if you rank up to the top 10k for instance and then you become barely active , mayby playing alt toons more often then your main or simply have so much going on in rl you have no time to pvp .
your ranking does over time subside. For instance my rank was around 13-14 k a few weeks or so ago now it is 17k . I just don't have the time or energy for pvp atm. And havn't been fully active in pvp since well before christmas .
But to clarify my point on joining a pvp class or training corp, is to advise the op to learn the basics before he goes on to more advanced solo pvp ect.
vote institiute for csm. He will do sexy things to you. |
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