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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:29:00 -
[1]
The meeting minutes for the first CSM 5 summit at the CCP headquarters in Reykjavik are now available. Click here to take a look!
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:32:00 -
[2]
Thanks for the sticky, Navigator!
♥
Life In Low Sec |
Chesty McJubblies
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Posted - 2010.07.12 15:48:00 -
[3]
oO
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:01:00 -
[4]
Good and timely communication, but y'all (CCP) could have condensed it a bit. Something like...
Quote: FAO: the sad, deluded peons that constitute our customer base
We have carefully considered your suggestions, requests, and opinions, and have but one response: Go f*** yourselves.
Love, CCP
...would have conveyed exactly the same message, and you wouldn't have needed to put in anything like as much effort to produce it. Ho hum.
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Shigsy
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:14:00 -
[5]
Good job mynxee ;) _________________________________
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:17:00 -
[6]
So .. eh ...
the gist of everything is that:
1. CCP is not going to care for EVE until after Dust 514, so around end of 2011.
2. Because of a few years of, what, hard work? Incarna and Dust are going to take ALL their attention, leaving just room for a little distractions to integrate Incarna and Dust with.
3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.
4. The very instrument they advertised to be awesome feedback and work as instrument for gamedesign and customer represenation has been prenerfed by CCP because all the planning and scheduling has already been done by CCP. In other words, the CSM can now feedback until it sees blue in the face, but CCP is already under way and ain't stopping.
What am I missing? |
T'Amber
www.shipsofeve.com
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:39:00 -
[7]
Thanks to Mynxee and the CSM5 team.
-T'amber
[SoE:at8] Win the 1st Publicly available Adrestia and Utu - rare ships
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Larkonis Trassler
EMIX INC
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:47:00 -
[8]
This would be comedy gold if it weren't for the fact that it's quite serious.
Really goes to show just how out of touch the senior staff are with the players and how unwilling they are to enter into any sort of real compromise or debate.
CSM was all about putting power into the hands of the players and making CCP more accountable to them. This appears to have failed.
I'm quite glad the format of the summit was changed and this term's chair has a good set of balls and is willing to tackle the challenges.
Quote: Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
I think this just about sums up the complete disconnect that the management have.
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:51:00 -
[9]
"CSM asked about in-station fighting or aggressive behaviors. CCP would not promise either in the near term. It has to be kept in mind that the basic idea regarding Incarna is to socialize, not to have an arena. An analogy with airports has been used in the past and that vision was further reinforced in HjaltiÆs book, EVE: The Burning Life."
If that is any indication for how CCP do their research, then sit on it for years and then get to work with it, I get scared.. sure nice book, but it is quite old by now. I do hope they actually did some serious and current market studies on MMO's that have failed because of airport analogy development >.<
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 16:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler This would be comedy gold if it weren't for the fact that it's quite serious.
Really goes to show just how out of touch the senior staff are with the players and how unwilling they are to enter into any sort of real compromise or debate.
CSM was all about putting power into the hands of the players and making CCP more accountable to them. This appears to have failed.
I'm quite glad the format of the summit was changed and this term's chair has a good set of balls and is willing to tackle the challenges.
Quote: Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
I think this just about sums up the complete disconnect that the management have.
It's all a bit depressing. How can we fault CCP for reinvesting so much of their income into the game? Yet how can we praise them when the expenditure is producing so little benefit to it's customers?
Well on the bright side: at least we know where we stand now. All I can say is, Incarna had better be ****ing awesome, CCP, because if we've put up with your terrible game quality since December 09 and all we get to make up for it is talk in some stupid e-bar, then there will be hell to pay.
Start fixing **** now. Start telling us what you've fixed. Start telling us what you're going to fix next. Star Wars: The Old Republic launches soon, and those guys are gonna eat your lunch unless you shape the **** up.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Larkonis Trassler
EMIX INC
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:06:00 -
[11]
When you see it...
Quote:
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
Quote:
The CSM suggested a dedicated öpolish teamô to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCP¦s answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:22:00 -
[12]
I am here, on page 1. á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.07.12 17:50:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 17:58:17
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler When you see it...
Quote:
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
Originally by: Dragon Greg
3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.
This actually needs some refining:
CCP Explorer did come to us with code metrics - and it is clear that from a software engineering point of view, the Eve code base is better than ever. However, as we all know, this is not reflected in the game experience. Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP), and we talked to the developers who actually work on the cluster code. They do accept that there is more lag than before - both in big fleets and small gangs - and the core cluster team is working on finding out WHY (and then fixing it).
It does seem somewhat telling that CCP comes up with code metrics when we come with complaints about the user experience. The two are not related.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Master Akira
Child Head Injury and Laceration Doctors
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:02:00 -
[15]
These minutes are a joke. A joke that is not funny.
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 17:58:17
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler When you see it...
Quote:
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
I agree. There's no doubt that plenty of resources are being thrown at Eve to improve it 'upwards' just not enough (or none at all) to improve it 'sideways' (hence the other quote in my poast).
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.
We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.
Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:13:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dragon Greg on 12/07/2010 18:17:21
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Originally by: Dragon Greg
3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.
This actually needs some refining:
CCP Explorer did come to us with code metrics - and it is clear that from a software engineering point of view, the Eve code base is better than ever. However, as we all know, this is not reflected in the game experience. Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP), and we talked to the developers who actually work on the cluster code. They do accept that there is more lag than before - both in big fleets and small gangs - and the core cluster team is working on finding out WHY (and then fixing it).
It does seem somewhat telling that CCP comes up with code metrics when we come with complaints about the user experience. The two are not related, and to me it hints at either a disconnect between the devs and the game they make, or an effort to fool the CSM into thinking things are ok. However, the team that is actually responsible for 'fixing the lag' IS aware that it exists and that it is worse than before. Whether or not they can fix it any time soon is a totally different question however.
You know, all good intentions from CSM and staff aside, that just means ****, when they people making the decisions at CCP on commercial objectives, acquisition targets over retention, and resource allocations have zero clue on the state of the product, or even of its reception by customers in these days of social networking.
There's an interesting thread on SHC, yeah I know, shocking in its own right .. bitter vets constructively analysing meeting minutes, EVE, Dust, Incarna, and CCP, with surprisingly more politesse and aptitude then here. But even there, the same fundamental conclusions are being drawn. It has no importance whatsoever whether Devs want to do the right thing, when the people making the decisions actively or passively wreck the processes involved.
Look, no disrespect to what is visibly a lot of hard work of the CSM as a real team, in spite of the **** we saw here t times, nor to the hardworking staff who try to build this universe. But it is as if at some point there just is a LOT of misinformation, or even emo on the state of the product and those annoying customers who dare to want to enjoy a game respectively. But I guess, that is what you get for staying clear from proper communication and immersion, and yes, maybe as players we ourselves a even guilty of some of the roots of that, after all, for several years people chased after Devs playing the game as if it were a jihad. Sure, sometimes for good reasons in the days of corruption, but at some point that just turned into a spanish inquisition.
Maybe it's an idea to start a little reconciliation on several levels, cause with what EVE is, you can't manage development of the product or the business without living and breathing what you build.
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.
It is amazing, that it seems necessary for players to educate the people behind the brand, on the nature and state of their product, even to educate them on the risk this places on the value of both brand and IP - regardless of hard work of actual developers. These minutes really show where the structural problems are.
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.
Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that. The only way to convince them would be a drop in subscriber numbers, but most of us are still too invested in this game to unsubscribe en-masse.
Can't they see what an incredible commercial risk they are taking with this? I'm not referring to the mythical risk of mass unsubscribing - people LOVE eve, they WANT TO BELIEVE, so those who are invested in it stick around, and do come back.
But getting caught in an ever accelerating rat race of increasing resource capacity while the ratio of resource allocations required for acquisitions is not in proportion to that increase in resource capacity, that's just nuts. Besides, there are structural business development limitations to that which traditionally force enterprise forces to turn their products to legacy mode, and seek other products, typically within the same IP. But those who engage in such rat races, they nor their products survive in the end, because it creates a momentum which is always counterproductive to the original core principles and strengths of the original foundation they established for the IP. |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:37:00 -
[20]
Quote: Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnÆt committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.
The question that you need to ask Nathan is why are you measuring your development budget against other game companies? Do they have the same business Eve business model, game archictecture and vision that would make such comparisons valid? Yes or no?
At the end of the day, it's a pointless number statistic that serves little purpose. Ergo: he needs to come up with a better justification.
I think by now, he should have realized that the player/community climate is unhappy and that is being reflected by the pushing that CSM5 is giving. It also doesn't take a genius to gauge the general mood of the forum postings. Let's see how things develop from here - continual denial or some course-corrections.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:06:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Malcanis on 12/07/2010 19:07:15
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 18:10:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.
I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.
We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.
Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that. The only way to convince them would be a drop in subscriber numbers, but most of us are still too invested in this game to unsubscribe en-masse.
Aye, you're right. Maybe it might be worth pointing out to CCP that the "Used to play EVE but left because finally lost patience with gamebreaking bug #153" demographic is worth chasing, especially since fixing every such gamebreaking bug adds value to each new subscription.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Depili
Blood Works Inc. Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:08:00 -
[22]
I'm confused, first CCP says that they are committed to excellence and then they say no to every request for fixes or polish...
I knew things were bad but the minutes show even greater problems, well I hear that perpetuum is shaping up real nice...
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:14:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/07/2010 19:19:21 Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/07/2010 19:17:28
Quote: CSM firmly stated its belief that CCP is on the wrong track in directing their development power into new things that the players have no faith in while acknowledging that the old things need attention. CSM truly believes that CCP needs to pay much more attention to what players are saying. There is a growing frustration among the CSM that CCPÆs apparent refusal to tangibly address well supported player requests will never change.
Quote: The CSM stressed that their criticisms are done made because they love EVE and would like to see it go on for many more years. They are worried about the health of EVE; the excellence of the game and the concerns of its community is the CSMÆs top priority. CSM stated that they believe the CSM is at a critical point in time now. Despite their touted stakeholder status, it is clear even formerly supportive players are losing faith in the CSM process due to nothing changing about the way CCP treats CSM-raised issues. If the CSM is to have any credibility with players, it must be able to demonstrate positive outcomes from its activities.
Good stuff.
Reading through it is amasing how determined CCP staff are to ignore the advice the CSM gives, their defensiveness comes across as downright unprofessional and discourteous as well. Getting the idea that they no longer respect their players.
At least this time around the CSM are forcing CCP to admit that they're letting the game rot in favour of their pet projects which allows us as consumers to decide how much effort we want to dedicate to the future of a game which the management is too tight to alot resources to fix.
Edit: Apologies to developers, not your decision as to what you are allowed to do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:28:00 -
[24]
I just don't understand, because at one point in time, you had fixed lag to a degree that made everyone jump up and down and praise you, CCP. We were all saying "finally, this game is going somewhere now." And then you introduced a new patch, with new features, and we went back to worse than ever amounts of lag. Maybe the people you're putting on this issue aren't competent, or maybe you really just don't care, but that's all we really want. You don't have to give us tons of new game content every 6 months, we make the game content ourselves, that's the whole point of Eve. Just give us a lag free experience. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:32:00 -
[25]
the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:39:00 -
[26]
Considering the minutes, the Primae makes perfect sense as a gift, reflecting the stance of CCP (management): Here, have something for free from us, it looks totally cool and is unique and especially made for this new feature and you better be happy about it because it took us much work to do and despite that, we're not going to charge you for it extra. Yet, it is pretty much useless. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
Well said.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
I kinda think the DEVS do realize that...it's MANAGEMENT that seems to need to "corify" this message. But well said, Mazz.
Life In Low Sec |
Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
Very well put.
J'ai violT votre vaisseau spatial. C'Ttait amusant.
≡v≡ |
Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:23:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 12/07/2010 20:29:25
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
Well put, just...
What if that target group and their "market research team" is seen by CCP - probably at high management level - as not so important after all ? As it seems it is the only explanation to me...
All I can say, these minutes have really shaken my trust in CCP (already dented, but just a bit before).
After all, who and how can assure that fate of FOTY Incarna will be better than rest of EVE. Once we are clearly told to stfu, all what's left is forum graphomania... I have a topic for speculation then, what new shiny will doom Incarna to be left in hald-made state forever.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Di Mulle Edited by: Di Mulle on 12/07/2010 20:31:00 Edited by: Di Mulle on 12/07/2010 20:29:25
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
Well put, just...
What if that target group and their "market research team" is seen by CCP - probably at high management level - as not so important after all ? As it seems it is the only explanation to me...
All I can say, these minutes have really shaken my trust in CCP (already dented, but just a bit before).
After all, who and how can assure that fate of FOTY Incarna will be better than rest of EVE. Once we are clearly told to stfu, all what's left is forum graphomania... I have a topic for speculation then, what new shiny will doom Incarna to be left in half-finished state forever.
It already is clear from these minutes, that there are severe and structural bottlenecks in communication inside CCP.
What surprised me, even shocked me, is that while players often think that there is a big gap between players and Devs, the gap between Execs and Devs is much, much bigger.
A second observation, is that these minutes make shockingly clear that on the executive level, and probably also on a business/product owner decision point, there is something really, really wrong. They either do not get the correct information on state of affairs, events and products, or they discard it (maybe indeed based on old trauma, too much work taken over the fun or growing into their version of bitter vet facing screaming hordes), or the people who control the information flow have either such issues, or suffer from cubicle / little kingdom syndromes.
A third observation, is that ultimately, where they could with less work but more vision establish CCP as something truly awesome, and the sci fi mmo as their default IP and market, without competing with anyone else anywhere, they insist on basing commercial decisions on incorrect definitions, engaging in ventures while step by step they take away parts of the core company and product values that made this epic ride possible.
And as a fourth observation, as much as I hate to make the analogy, there is something very unsettling about their approach on customer acquisition over customer retention. We've seen this before, in damage control efforts in SWG. As long as the product is not legacy, build upon customers wanting to make it work, and recycle subscriber groups as you proceed to legacy status.
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Jodie Amille
Kill Death Ratio
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:48:00 -
[32]
Heh, if this is the attitude that ccp is taking towards their product for the next 18 months minimum then I think it may just be time to unsub.
At least sc 2 will be out soon to occupy some of my time. --------
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:05:00 -
[33]
WHAT WE HAVE HERE... is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:39:00 -
[34]
Looks like I now have some light after-dinner reading. ______________________________
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Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:53:00 -
[35]
Quote: 13:30-14:30 Winter 2010 CCP Attendees: Kristoffer û CCP Soundwave, Guilhem û CCP Ytterbium, Kristjan Blondal û CCP Bettik This session discussed an as-yet undisclosed new feature to be included in the Winter 2010 expansion. In general, the CSM was skeptical about the necessity and potential success of this expansion. A number of concerns were raised, potential impacts identified, and alternate ideas suggested. The inclusion of such an expansion appears to conflict with what was said in the previous session regarding the focus of the Winter Expansion.
So they are adding a brand-new feature that you guys aren't fond of and is going to impact the game in a new way as opposed to the goal stated, which is refining PI, polishing, and prepping for future expansions?
Without going into details on what it is...should we worry?
Oh, and good job guys. Thanks especially for mentioning new players barrier to getting into 0.0. Did CCP respond with anything to that?
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:06:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Camios on 12/07/2010 23:05:58
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP)
This is pretty sad. When we are told that Devs play the game, well, then probably it means that they don't play in nullsec, and that explains all. As Trebor stated, and as anyone know, with the current gameplay mechanics lag will never be defeated. That means the sov warfare will always have problems, and personally I think that this is one of the main reason why comquerable 0.0 is empty: you have to fight for your territory, but the fight is the most frustrating thing to do in EVE, and many people would give away their sov for fun. After all, this is a game. In the end, lag in sov warfare will never be solved, and non masochist pilots in the long run will avoid fleet battles like hell (like I do).
And assigning a permanent scrum team to monitor, balance and work out a new life for nullsec would be the solution..
The fact is that nullsec is the most important part of EVE. It's the only source of many materials, the main drain of ships and capitals, it's the highest and biggest of aims, and it's the place where the stories, the politics, the power dynamics, the player organization the biggest of every time and virtual world ever existed. EVE's nullsec is the biggest monument of MMO gaming.
But with this policy, it will never reach its full potential, and decline.
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Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:14:00 -
[37]
Good to see what lots of us have been saying - the CSM is a complete waste of time and effort and the Summit Meeting minutes proves it categorically. It is there only for the small "uber-l33t" player base who seem to think they control the game . "Whaaa" we here you all cry "1% of the player base has a problem with lag - fix it now!!". "Whaaa" you cry again "our life in low-sec is pointless - fix it now!!". Seriously, it must of been like kindergarten for the CCP attendees listening to you all whine away (tear-streaked PowerPoint presentations and all) .
Seriously, there are issues here that were raised in CSM1 (in fact most of the points covered in this document are just rehashes of issues that have been there since inception). Each year you guys seem to find more issues to have a sook over but it still seems to escape your attention - you are all irrelevant to the game and to the majority of the player base.
And it's funny to see that instead of 3 days in Iceland, you now want more!! As CCP rightly point out, even a month of yakking amongst yourselves would still no accomplish anything (at least someone has their feet firmly planted on the ground)!! Just reiterates the fact that this is nothing more than a pointless waste of time and effort - a sop to the "cool kids" to make them feel good about themselves .
The funniest thing though about this whole exercise is that the CSM now has yet another pointless document to wave around to prove their relevancy.
Give yourselves a golf clap for a job well done.
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Shuckstar
Gallente Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:19:00 -
[38]
CCP: We don't care what players think, as long as the money keeps rolling in everything is peachy. We prefer to work on Incarna and Dust.
That's what i get from reading them minutes.
When in reality they should be fixing bugs that been around for years, broken sov mechanics and releasing expansions (if you can call them that) that are full of bugs and released in beta state. Also your customer service is pure ****, cccp get your act together.
You are going to fast! Wait five minutes and try again.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Loi Shaini bawww
So the CSM isn't very good at getting under management's skin, and making them work at fixing all the old holes in Eve. That sucks, we can agree on that. But if we do as you say and disband the CSM, what exactly do you propose as a solution? Let CCP management live in the land of deceptive stats and "Ooh, shiny!" until someone makes a space MMO competently and Eve collapses? Let them get their inspiration for what Eve should become from forum trolls? Or are you just going to poke at them with pins in a voodoo doll until they get a clue?
Seriously, the CSM is not perfect, but what you propose is stupid.
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Ab Tallen
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:15:00 -
[40]
That's actually a great document to have, because I can look at it every time I ask myself if something is coming up in EVE that I actually care for... Like spaceships and things that happen in space. Obviously not. Good riddance.
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Minchurra
Caldari Feudum Chalybis The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:18:00 -
[41]
The minutes were a nice read, although I found this a little dissapointing:
Quote: Erlendur says that there will never be a complete UI overhaul due to scheduling reasons but rather a gradual UI improvement. Rewriting would take an unreasonable amount of time since the UI codebase consists of some 200,000 lines of code. The CSM has been waiting for an UI overhaul for 2 years but concedes that even a series of small fixes would go a long way towards addressing player complaints, especially if that involved extending the current good functionalities to as many other UI elements as possible.
I guess i can live with small fixes.
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Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Insert slurping, sucking noises here
It's their game and they can do whatever they please. End game for them is that whatever brings the $$ through the door is a win for them. TBQH, if they wish to make it Pretty Ponies in Space, and it brings in the punters in droves - who are we to stop them?
Don't know what "deceptive stats" you are talking about - they wouldn't be the ones that reflect revenue coming into CCP would it? I mean, how deceptive can money in the bank be . Or do you want them to do it all for free to satisfy the "in crowd".
You know that if you try really hard, the cool kids might let you into 0.0 to play with them. A couple more suck up posts may do it
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.13 00:29:00 -
[43]
tee hee hee
"CCP stated that it decided not to react hastily once the issue was discovered because it deemed that the potential damage was limited enough to warrant waiting for a full and well-thought-out solution."
the solution was "nothing"
that was their full and well-thought-out solution
goes to show
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Rok Qhang'Rawl
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.13 01:08:00 -
[44]
Quote: The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence [...] There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
Quote: [CCP Oveur] pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies.
<<All emphasis mine>>
Seriously? He offered a purely hypothetical conjecture (and a non-sequitur at that) in reply? Meeting notes can never capture the nuance of such a charged discussion.
I understand pride in one's work, and that dissonance may occur when confronted with strong criticism, but it is an important part of a leader's job to listen well. Here's to hoping that some reflection follows, even if it wasn't obvious in the moment.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 01:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Loi Shaini It's their game and they can do whatever they please. End game for them is that whatever brings the $$ through the door is a win for them. TBQH, if they wish to make it Pretty Ponies in Space, and it brings in the punters in droves - who are we to stop them?
Don't know what "deceptive stats" you are talking about - they wouldn't be the ones that reflect revenue coming into CCP would it? I mean, how deceptive can money in the bank be . Or do you want them to do it all for free to satisfy the "in crowd".
You know that if you try really hard, the cool kids might let you into 0.0 to play with them. A couple more suck up posts may do it
Well of course they can do what they want. It's their game. But that doesn't mean that you need to encourage them to do stupid things. Yeah, they can make it into a unicorn simulator, but they shouldn't and they won't. It's going to be a spaceship game featuring non-consensual PvP forever - whatever changes, it'll still be Eve. I want this game to be the best Eve it can be, and for that matter I think and hope that CCP does too. So while they could sabotage it, let's just ignore that as the silly rhetorical ploy that we both know it to be.
Regarding deceptive stats: I'm not CCP's accountant, I don't know their cash flows. But I do know that bragging about how much money you spend on game development is a hollow and meaningless number when you don't get anything for the money. It's an old maxim that anyone who can't measure output will measure input instead, and it seems to be as true of CCP management as it is of a government employees union at contract time. And let's not even get into how deceptive the "New shiny sells better than bug fixes" stat is - neglecting reputation effects seems like a brilliant strategy for a product whose long-term health is essential to your company's continued existence, doesn't it?
And please, I've already done more than enough sucking up. I have it on good authority that Dierdra Vaal's alliance will take me any time I want to join, and I already have an alt in Ankhesentapemkah's corp.
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Ifly Uwalk
Caldari Empire Tax Collection Agency
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Posted - 2010.07.13 02:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Loi Shaini stuff
bitter CCP Exec alt is bitter...
Ifly
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EyeCeeYou
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Posted - 2010.07.13 02:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
I kinda think the DEVS do realize that...it's MANAGEMENT that seems to need to "corify" this message. But well said, Mazz.
Then I'd suggest your job, should you be interested in getting things done, is to figure out what information source MANAGEMENT is relying on, since its apparently not the CSM and/or their own DEVS.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 02:39:00 -
[48]
Honestly, I reported the OP for trolling. This is so depressing I barely have words for it. I'd love to see CCP and Eve succeed - I've certainly put enough effort into making the game a better place. But CCP execs/devs (I'm not sure which honestly, and the minutes aren't descriptive enough for me to know which) seem hell bound determined to drive Eve into the ground.
Its very simple: we pay for INTERNET SPACESHIPS - and CCP should feel free to devote resources to making other games and bringing other cool visions to pass. But dammit there are an enormous number of small things which could be done to massively improve the game. I'm so tempted to offer to work for free if they'll just let me fix the **** they're leaving to rot.
Low sec - broken content. #fail Fleet lag - broken content. #fail COSMOS - broken content. #fail Faction Warfare - broken content. #fail The UI - broken content. #fail
CCP - broken company. #fail
Dammit. So much invested.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:07:00 -
[49]
Originally by: EyeCeeYou
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: mazzilliu the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.
I kinda think the DEVS do realize that...it's MANAGEMENT that seems to need to "corify" this message. But well said, Mazz.
Then I'd suggest your job, should you be interested in getting things done, is to figure out what information source MANAGEMENT is relying on, since its apparently not the CSM and/or their own DEVS.
this is something i'd be interested in finding out- who does the strategizing at ccp that decided that it would be a good idea to essentially loot the eve brand by extracting money from it without reinvesting in the game? putting all the resources into two other games that don't have nearly the proven solid, reliable, and most of all existing customer base that EVE has? the amount of total accounts created nowadays increases somewhat exponentially while the amount of active subscribers increases at a linear pace, and with CCP owning half the advertising real estate on the internet currently, this can't be a good sign for the long term future of EVE. And this is only from public information gleamed from various sources (and nothing to do with my CSM alt status, they don't tell the alts **** anyways)- god knows what the private information would tell us.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:09:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 13/07/2010 03:17:19
Originally by: csm notes It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish.
What that says to me is: according to their 'data' new customers income due to flashy expansions can make them more money than retention of current customers through promised "Commitment to Excellence"tm. Even if i try to play devil's advocate, it's hard to take anything else away from that.
Originally by: csm notes CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
Resources committed != results. You know you're on shaky ground when someone is quick to tell you how hard they've worked, but not so quick to share their tangible results.
Originally by: csm notes CCP warned that care has to be taken regarding expectation management for the players. Issues chosen for production often have to be cut, which may be harder to explain to players than to stakeholders. CSM commented that the CSM can aid in managing player expectations with regard to shifting priorities of backlogged items.
I don't include this because the reality of a business needing to please shareholders and turn a profit eludes me. However this in conjunction with the other two paint a picture I don't think truly serves either CCP nor the players long term interests.
Management habits as companies grow larger can become frightful. The more successful and older a company gets the more you get people coming in offering the world, gambling big and failing. They focus on maximum profit and if the ship sinks, they move on.
If the powers that be at CCP abandon their past ways of showing a commitment to excellence and trade that in for a "Commitment to Excellence"tm, well you'll find quickly that empty promises and continued guarantees for "it's going to get better we promise!" is all you'll receive. Regardless of best intentions by Devs.
While new product and new customers may show quicker immediate returns, doing this at the cost of a strong will to retain customers, scraping quality for quantity and a WORKING ability to make good on promises to customers is comparable to trying to build a structure ever faster, ever taller, and ignoring the crumbling foundation.
I really do care about eve but you'd have to be blind to see the cognitive dissonance between their game development assurances/promises/intentions and their blatant and self admitted 'full steam ahead new product' business direction.
-- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game. |
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EyeCeeYou
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: mazzilliu god knows what the private information would tell us.
It would probably tell you something like ...
The average MMO gamer, including EVE, plays any 1 game for between 19 and 22 months before they burn out and leave, regardless of how "polished" the game is.
Every $100 spent on new features will attract 10 new or returning players, of which 2 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on advertising will attract 20 new players, of which 5 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on "polish" will attract 2 new players, neither of whom will stay (statistically) and will have a negligible effect on extending the 19-22 month cycle, which is set by "burn out" factors unrelated to game polish or features.
That'd be my guess ....
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:36:00 -
[52]
Well... reading all that was a gigantic waste of time.
CCP, Incarna better be off the chain since everything gets put on the back burner for it.
Orca Pilot Sale |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: EyeCeeYou
Originally by: mazzilliu god knows what the private information would tell us.
It would probably tell you something like ...
The average MMO gamer, including EVE, plays any 1 game for between 19 and 22 months before they burn out and leave, regardless of how "polished" the game is.
Every $100 spent on new features will attract 10 new or returning players, of which 2 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on advertising will attract 20 new players, of which 5 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on "polish" will attract 2 new players, neither of whom will stay (statistically) and will have a negligible effect on extending the 19-22 month cycle, which is set by "burn out" factors unrelated to game polish or features.
That'd be my guess ....
Those statistics seem very flawed and presume a functioning game with a non-toxic player community to start with. MMO history is littered with the corpses of MMOs that lived by this mantra. STO, WHO, SWG, etc.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Myrkala
Minmatar Interstellar Empire Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:45:00 -
[54]
:'( -
Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Minmatar? More like Winmatar.
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EyeCeeYou
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Posted - 2010.07.13 03:53:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Those statistics seem very flawed and presume a functioning game with a non-toxic player community to start with. MMO history is littered with the corpses of MMOs that lived by this mantra. STO, WHO, SWG, etc.
-Liang
I obviously made up the specifics, but I think that's the general belief prevailing in MMO management at this time.
Take a look at this year old interview with the directors of bohemoth Bioware as an example .... http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=219608
Quote: "They're looking for a differentiated product. Look at Team Fortress 2... You have to keep bringing out content, or the game disappears after the first weeks." [said Bioware's co-director Gordon Walton] ... " He argues that new MMOs need to create their own template. "I thought Age of Conan would be more differentiated. We were betting that both Age of Conan and WAR would have been bigger than they are, but that's down to their execution, not the market... Age of Conan would have really had something if they've maintained that great experience beyond the first 20 levels... What happened to that? When you get past the first 20 levels that experience went away. You can't do that, not in this climate. The market is ready for differentiation. There's a lot of WoW fatigue. It doesn't matter how good that game is, you're going to get tired of it."
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 04:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: EyeCeeYou
Originally by: Liang Nuren Those statistics seem very flawed and presume a functioning game with a non-toxic player community to start with. MMO history is littered with the corpses of MMOs that lived by this mantra. STO, WHO, SWG, etc.
-Liang
I obviously made up the specifics, but I think that's the general belief prevailing in MMO management at this time.
Take a look at this year old interview with the directors of bohemoth Bioware as an example .... http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=219608
Quote: "They're looking for a differentiated product. Look at Team Fortress 2... You have to keep bringing out content, or the game disappears after the first weeks." [said Bioware's co-director Gordon Walton] ... " He argues that new MMOs need to create their own template. "I thought Age of Conan would be more differentiated. We were betting that both Age of Conan and WAR would have been bigger than they are, but that's down to their execution, not the market... Age of Conan would have really had something if they've maintained that great experience beyond the first 20 levels... What happened to that? When you get past the first 20 levels that experience went away. You can't do that, not in this climate. The market is ready for differentiation. There's a lot of WoW fatigue. It doesn't matter how good that game is, you're going to get tired of it."
The take away there doesn't support the comment though. It supports the comment that polish is the most important thing in an MMO.
And CCP is sacrificing that.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Loi Shaini
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.07.13 04:06:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Originally by: Loi Shaini stuff
bitter CCP Exec alt is bitter...
Ifly
Yep and I'm looking at your account with my finger poised over the ban button
Stupid poaster is stupid
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.13 04:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Loi Shaini Edited by: Loi Shaini on 13/07/2010 04:10:12
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Originally by: Loi Shaini stuff
bitter CCP Exec alt is bitter...
Ifly
Yep and I'm looking at your account with my finger poised over the ban button
Stupid poaster is stupid
Oh and shiney stuff FTW!!!! No one cares about the 0.0 denizens, they contribute a small percentage to the game costs, a small percentage to the game environment (out of sight and out of mind to 95% of the player base), yet they make up the majority of the whining and forum wastage.
Look at the ongoing disaster of the majority 0.0 run CSM - irrelevance is their motto, self-indulgence is their rationale and failure is their aim.
the latent psychological issues in this guy are just straight comedy. thank you.
so you are a high sec carebear that gets owned during hulkageddon but you applied for CSM and were promptly denied for your lack of intelligence, tact, wit, ingenuity, or communicability.
explained, much is. i actually fly amarr |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 04:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: EyeCeeYou I obviously made up the specifics, but I think that's the general belief prevailing in MMO management at this time.
The problem is, MMO managers are reliant on statistics that only represent the short term, and are making assumptions that simply aren't justifiable. I mean, seriously, does anyone think that WoW has had ten million subscribers for the last three years because they advertise better? That doesn't even pass the laugh test. It's the most popular, because a) Blizzard polishes their games until they sparkle, and b) Blizzard has a reputation for polishing their games until they sparkle. It's the same as every other MMO, but better, and it has thirty times their subscriber counts because of its quality.
CCP on the other hand makes code that most garage programmers wouldn't pass through QA, and has made it to #2 based on a unique user experience. That's great, of course, and it's why I play, but it is just a completely different entrant into the market. And yet, they try to market themselves like any other MMO, they try to run the game like any other MMO, and they plan for customer retention like any other MMO. Then they wonder why they have a lower retention rate than most flash games. If you're going to be unique - and that's what CCP was founded on - then you have to act it. You don't advertise to the WoW players of the world, because they won't put up with your crap. Anyone who plays WoW for the quality of design won't finish their trial period. Anyone who plays WoW for a nice stress-free grindfest will quit the first time they lose a ship to Hulkageddon. You find the players who want what you make, and you cherish them, because they're not a common resource. If you **** off the PvP-lovers once, you have no fallback market. WoW can churn users but Eve can't, which is really ironic given their respective attitudes towards ****ing on their existing customers.
I don't deny that the conventional wisdom at CCP is an accurate representation of the short-run state of affairs. But reputation and word of mouth matter, and they're just ignoring that in favour of their first-approximation data on user acquisition from new features. I have nothing against new features, but I do have something against CCP's near-pathological aversion to fixing past broken content. Dominion sov and some balance changes aren't nearly enough to fix the state of this game, and until that changes, Eve will have a reputation for being buggy, incomplete, and not living up to anything like its potential. CCP needs to spend less effort trying to attract more people who will never play Eve for any length of time, and more effort trying to get those of us who want to like it to keep playing. We'll advertise for you, if you give us something we can tell our friends about without shame.
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Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.13 05:24:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: EyeCeeYou
Originally by: mazzilliu god knows what the private information would tell us.
It would probably tell you something like ...
The average MMO gamer, including EVE, plays any 1 game for between 19 and 22 months before they burn out and leave, regardless of how "polished" the game is.
Every $100 spent on new features will attract 10 new or returning players, of which 2 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on advertising will attract 20 new players, of which 5 will hang around past 4 weeks for a full 19-22 month cycle. Every $100 spent on "polish" will attract 2 new players, neither of whom will stay (statistically) and will have a negligible effect on extending the 19-22 month cycle, which is set by "burn out" factors unrelated to game polish or features.
That'd be my guess ....
Those statistics seem very flawed and presume a functioning game with a non-toxic player community to start with. MMO history is littered with the corpses of MMOs that lived by this mantra. STO, WHO, SWG, etc.
-Liang
They probably are worse for EVE. Everyone is annoyed about them adding new stuff, but the player community needs to realize that EVE specifically drives more people off than comparable games. Part of it is the poor UI and learning curve, part of it is the community being toxic, and part of it is the PVP focus.
I think if the community had a better attitude and stopped focusing so much on HTFU and tears you might see a lot more player retention. The other two can't change, but a lot of EVE's bad rep is due to us too. The best way to keep people in is to invest in them. I mean, this has to be one of the only games I've played where the community delights in running certain types of players out of the game rather than try and integrate them and help them deal with the PvP focus.
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Starfinder Smith
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Posted - 2010.07.13 06:35:00 -
[61]
Nice try CSM! I fully understand how much thought and effort you have put into this attempt. Now all we have to do,as players, is get them to listen to what you have to say.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:11:00 -
[62]
I'd love to know where the management is getting their statistical data from and how they verified that it was applicable to a persistent MMO like EVE. I sure hope they don't use data from single release games, because those are not comparable.
Single games are throw away products, fire and forget, release on the market and make a new one, if popular make sequel or expansion. But a MMO like EVE does not forget the old releases, they're still around and pile up. And if they're less than excellent, they form a huge junkyard of not quite finished features where the lone new content is slapped on.
Every expansion and every new feature for a persistent MMO needs to fit in seamlessly into the whole game and form a new or expanded single game with many features. Every intended game style needs to be deep enough that a player can fully immerse oneself in it. Failure to do so will result in people hopping from feature to feature only to realize how quickly they get bored of them, burn out, quit and never come back.
Think of all the old classics people still play after 10 or more years. These are games that have reached a level of excellence that makes people replay it even if the technology in them is old. The game design isn't.
Keeping players playing is essential for a healthy and reliable player base, resulting in a high resistance to revenue loss at the appearance of rival products and a low risk environment for investments. With the design strategy CCP is currently running they are increasing the risk of a total product failure. The MMO market is no place to become complacent. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 08:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ori Blake They probably are worse for EVE. Everyone is annoyed about them adding new stuff, but the player community needs to realize that EVE specifically drives more people off than comparable games. Part of it is the poor UI and learning curve, part of it is the community being toxic, and part of it is the PVP focus.
I think if the community had a better attitude and stopped focusing so much on HTFU and tears you might see a lot more player retention. The other two can't change, but a lot of EVE's bad rep is due to us too. The best way to keep people in is to invest in them. I mean, this has to be one of the only games I've played where the community delights in running certain types of players out of the game rather than try and integrate them and help them deal with the PvP focus.
Thing is, this game was literally created for the purpose of harvesting tears. A bunch of dudes from Iceland got annoyed that they couldn't grief in Ultima Online, and decided to make their own game where griefing was encouraged. If Eve loses that, all it'd be left with is a decent market simulator and a third-rate PvE experience, run through the worst UI in a major release this decade. Eve has to acquire and retain new players with that as a constraint, it's not something that can be set aside.
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Xiomaraa
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Posted - 2010.07.13 08:46:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Xiomaraa on 13/07/2010 08:47:38 To the CSM members, have you consider resigning? (Thank for the hard work BTW, Too bad 90% not heard by CCP for the 5th time)
Old playerÆs use Plex, Plex comes from new players who want ISK. Hence CCP needs new players.
With that said, it still a joke at how they just say well we "won't" fix anything cause we are busy with other "cool broken" stuff.
I saw we all take our spaceships to eve gate and mass destruct to show our disappointment.
at the moment I feel like CCP saying you don't pay for expansion so STFU and deal with the bugs they bring.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.13 10:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP), and we talked to the developers who actually work on the cluster code.
Is this video available to the public?
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:46:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 13/07/2010 11:47:18 I dont know if its public. It was a Morsus Mihi video on how to deal with lag. It doesnt really contain anything shocking or super secret, which is why its surprising that CCP didnt seem to be aware of all of it.
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ori Blake
Quote: 13:30-14:30 Winter 2010 CCP Attendees: Kristoffer û CCP Soundwave, Guilhem û CCP Ytterbium, Kristjan Blondal û CCP Bettik This session discussed an as-yet undisclosed new feature to be included in the Winter 2010 expansion. In general, the CSM was skeptical about the necessity and potential success of this expansion. A number of concerns were raised, potential impacts identified, and alternate ideas suggested. The inclusion of such an expansion appears to conflict with what was said in the previous session regarding the focus of the Winter Expansion.
So they are adding a brand-new feature that you guys aren't fond of and is going to impact the game in a new way as opposed to the goal stated, which is refining PI, polishing, and prepping for future expansions?
Without going into details on what it is...should we worry?
Hmmm, could this be the arena stuff that was rejected by the cluster before? If so I need more popcorn. Waaay more popcorn.
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Gardaz
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal I dont know if its public. It was a Morsus Mihi video on how to deal with lag. It doesnt really contain anything shocking or super secret, which is why its surprising that CCP didnt seem to be aware of all of it.
Uploaded it here.
Originally by: Vuk Lau [...]dev A-team being stunned by Blazde's "How to cycle guns in lag" video. Quote Dev X: Can we keep the video, we heard there is something called "stucked modules" but were never able to actually see it. You dont want to hear my reply
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.13 13:21:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gardaz
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal I dont know if its public. It was a Morsus Mihi video on how to deal with lag. It doesnt really contain anything shocking or super secret, which is why its surprising that CCP didnt seem to be aware of all of it.
Uploaded it here.
Originally by: Vuk Lau [...]dev A-team being stunned by Blazde's "How to cycle guns in lag" video. Quote Dev X: Can we keep the video, we heard there is something called "stucked modules" but were never able to actually see it. You dont want to hear my reply
Thanks! May I suggest eve-files.com as well? No nag-screens/stupid popups and automatic torrent! :)
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Hussain
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.07.13 15:52:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Hussain on 13/07/2010 15:52:05 After reading the report and seeing CCP plans about:
- No changes on the actual FW mechanics for at least one and a half year. - Generally not changing any of the other broken/unbalancing issues. - Incarna - No I dont need another glorified chat window, I like spaceship games. - Dust - Why should I support a game in which I wont play but affects the game I do play on is really beyond me.
Its obvious to me the CCP just want my money to do things I am not really intrested on. I decided to stop my alt accounts, my main will remain for the time been as I do have personal friends in the game. But even that might not last long.
Great work by the CSM as they did show us how "player friendly" CCP is really like.
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Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:00:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Ori Blake They probably are worse for EVE. Everyone is annoyed about them adding new stuff, but the player community needs to realize that EVE specifically drives more people off than comparable games. Part of it is the poor UI and learning curve, part of it is the community being toxic, and part of it is the PVP focus.
I think if the community had a better attitude and stopped focusing so much on HTFU and tears you might see a lot more player retention. The other two can't change, but a lot of EVE's bad rep is due to us too. The best way to keep people in is to invest in them. I mean, this has to be one of the only games I've played where the community delights in running certain types of players out of the game rather than try and integrate them and help them deal with the PvP focus.
Thing is, this game was literally created for the purpose of harvesting tears. A bunch of dudes from Iceland got annoyed that they couldn't grief in Ultima Online, and decided to make their own game where griefing was encouraged. If Eve loses that, all it'd be left with is a decent market simulator and a third-rate PvE experience, run through the worst UI in a major release this decade. Eve has to acquire and retain new players with that as a constraint, it's not something that can be set aside.
I'm not saying for the gameplay to change focus or strip the PvP elements from the game. It's more that players can make it a lot worse and drive people from the game, by their attitudes towards others. You can still have PvP without a griefing mindset, even open world PvP.
If you don't want them to add fluff instead of meaningful changes, help retain people. You are not going to do that by acting like a tool each time someone dies in a barge in Hulkageddon, or constantly HTFUing.
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DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:20:00 -
[72]
Edited by: DogSlime on 13/07/2010 16:22:12 I just re-activated my account on the 5 day offer. Won't be subscribing beyond that, though. I'm not going to bother downloading the new client.
Looking at the forums, it seems that my reasons for originally unsubscribing my two accounts are vindicated.
I started my first account in 2006, then added a second in 2007. I lapsed both of them at the end of 2008 when it seemed clear that CCP had abandoned many of the things I was enthusiastic about.
In the time between early 2006 and late 2008, I had spent around ú450 on EVE. Was it worth that much money? Well, no - there were some big Quality Of Service issues and the new features like Faction Warfare had been released half-baked and then never followed up. Lag was terrible even in relatively small fights. I kept paying because I had faith that CCP would sort it out.
Essentially, I was paying because I was investing in what EVE was going to be. There were problems, but they would eventually be sorted out.
I lost faith. I thought that CCP were just using EVE as a cash generator to finance other projects. They also re-wrote history to suit their changing policies. Faction Warfare was supposed to be an ongoing development - a bit pointless to begin with, but later things would be epic. That changed to "faction warfare is just for newbies to get their feet wet before joining a 0.0 alliance. Working as intended. No more development in the pipeline."
Crippling lag was always on the verge of being conquered for good (We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia...)
Now I see that there will be very little development on EVE until 2011... but they're always late.
So, with all the problems that caused me to lose faith in the first place still very much in evidence, why would I pay another ú350+ on a very vague promise that all will eventually be well?
If I hadn't unsubscribed in 2008, I would have spent around ú700 by now. I can buy a LOT of games for ú700.
How many of you have kept the faith and kept paying because, whilst you might have been less than happy with EVE as it is now, you trusted that EVE would be something EPIC soon? How much have you invested?
The infuriating part for me is that EVE could be great. EVE could be so good that I'd be prepared to sign up for ten years... but with CCP at the helm, it won't be. It won't be. EVER.
You're paying a lot of money for a sub-par product. It won't change until at least 2011, and realistically it won't change at all.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:00:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Ori Blake I'm not saying for the gameplay to change focus or strip the PvP elements from the game. It's more that players can make it a lot worse and drive people from the game, by their attitudes towards others. You can still have PvP without a griefing mindset, even open world PvP.
If you don't want them to add fluff instead of meaningful changes, help retain people. You are not going to do that by acting like a tool each time someone dies in a barge in Hulkageddon, or constantly HTFUing.
I don't think we really disagree. I'm just saying, that between the brutality inherent in the game's design, and the level of community decay inherent in any large group of gamers, I don't expect better. I try not to be a jerk towards people who are new to the game and don't "get" Eve, but expecting the entire forum community to be decent, reasonable folks is like expecting world peace to break out after Woodstock.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:12:00 -
[74]
PVP in Eve is generally good. Better than any other game out there. The problem is that the giant battles, the crowning moments of glory, fall flat on their face currently.
PVE in Eve is... not so good. Better than it used to be, but still lacking. Honestly, I think part of what it is lacking is real boss fights. There aren't any true boss characters in PVE. A boss always does something different than the other NPCs. It isn't just another character with more tank and more DPS, it uses different weapons, has special weapons, and has a higher functioning AI so it responds to the character more than the charge-n-shoot of the rest of the NPCs.
Sov, both 0.0 and faction, is less painful than the POS warfare of old, but still is lacking.
PI just sucks.
CCP is able to float by on these things, but not for terribly long. Definitely not another year without showing some interest in fixing things.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: DogSlime Edited by: DogSlime on 13/07/2010 16:22:12 I just re-activated my account on the 5 day offer. Won't be subscribing beyond that, though. I'm not going to bother downloading the new client.
Looking at the forums, it seems that my reasons for originally unsubscribing my two accounts are vindicated.
I started my first account in 2006, then added a second in 2007. I lapsed both of them at the end of 2008 when it seemed clear that CCP had abandoned many of the things I was enthusiastic about.
In the time between early 2006 and late 2008, I had spent around ú450 on EVE. Was it worth that much money? Well, no - there were some big Quality Of Service issues and the new features like Faction Warfare had been released half-baked and then never followed up. Lag was terrible even in relatively small fights. I kept paying because I had faith that CCP would sort it out.
Essentially, I was paying because I was investing in what EVE was going to be. There were problems, but they would eventually be sorted out.
I lost faith. I thought that CCP were just using EVE as a cash generator to finance other projects. They also re-wrote history to suit their changing policies. Faction Warfare was supposed to be an ongoing development - a bit pointless to begin with, but later things would be epic. That changed to "faction warfare is just for newbies to get their feet wet before joining a 0.0 alliance. Working as intended. No more development in the pipeline."
Crippling lag was always on the verge of being conquered for good (We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia...)
Now I see that there will be very little development on EVE until 2011... but they're always late.
So, with all the problems that caused me to lose faith in the first place still very much in evidence, why would I pay another ú350+ on a very vague promise that all will eventually be well?
If I hadn't unsubscribed in 2008, I would have spent around ú700 by now. I can buy a LOT of games for ú700.
How many of you have kept the faith and kept paying because, whilst you might have been less than happy with EVE as it is now, you trusted that EVE would be something EPIC soon? How much have you invested?
The infuriating part for me is that EVE could be great. EVE could be so good that I'd be prepared to sign up for ten years... but with CCP at the helm, it won't be. It won't be. EVER.
You're paying a lot of money for a sub-par product. It won't change until at least 2011, and realistically it won't change at all.
The sad thing is, you missed the ~6 month interval last year when lag was pretty much fixed, and things were generally awesome. Look at the forums this time last year - we were much happier
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
DogSlime
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 17:37:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Malcanis
The sad thing is, you missed the ~6 month interval last year when lag was pretty much fixed, and things were generally awesome. Look at the forums this time last year - we were much happier
Indeed
If CCP get EVE sorted out, I'll be delighted to play again. I just can't bring myself to financially contribute to CCP if they're not properly committed to their product.
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:22:00 -
[77]
2-3 years ago i used to rave about this game to anyone who would listen, now i dont even mention it.
CCP remember a happy customer tells 3-5 people about a good experience an unhappy customer tells 100's about their bad experience.
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:34:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Terrigal on 13/07/2010 18:38:46 "Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system. CCP will probably continue to provide the paid service of remaking avatars. CSM requested that CCP take measures to compensate charges imposed for ôold styleö portrait swaps that occur within a reasonable time-frame prior to the release of the new character creator, as it didnÆt seem fair to charge people for something that would be negated by the new avatar requirements."
THIS IS WHEN I QUIT - I dont care about a new avatar how does it help me in the game, it doesnt do anything of any benifit to anyone - Will new subscriptions when this is introduced pay for their character creation or is a money making excersice to fleece more money out of an already disgruntled existing player base?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:53:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Terrigal Edited by: Terrigal on 13/07/2010 18:38:46 "Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system. CCP will probably continue to provide the paid service of remaking avatars. CSM requested that CCP take measures to compensate charges imposed for ôold styleö portrait swaps that occur within a reasonable time-frame prior to the release of the new character creator, as it didnÆt seem fair to charge people for something that would be negated by the new avatar requirements."
THIS IS WHEN I QUIT - I dont care about a new avatar how does it help me in the game, it doesnt do anything of any benifit to anyone - Will new subscriptions when this is introduced pay for their character creation or is a money making excersice to fleece more money out of an already disgruntled existing player base?
Uh, OK look there's plenty to be discontented about but this really does seem a pretty trivial thing to get worked up about.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Terrigal Edited by: Terrigal on 13/07/2010 18:38:46 "Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system. CCP will probably continue to provide the paid service of remaking avatars. CSM requested that CCP take measures to compensate charges imposed for ôold styleö portrait swaps that occur within a reasonable time-frame prior to the release of the new character creator, as it didnÆt seem fair to charge people for something that would be negated by the new avatar requirements."
THIS IS WHEN I QUIT - I dont care about a new avatar how does it help me in the game, it doesnt do anything of any benifit to anyone - Will new subscriptions when this is introduced pay for their character creation or is a money making excersice to fleece more money out of an already disgruntled existing player base?
I don't think you have anything to worry about.
To me it looks like this is a precursor to Incarna. You are asked to redesign your avatar because they'll be redesigning it for that system, and possibly generating it from your EVE avatar rather than having you make it completely from scratch.
The charging thing is just saying they wont be charging people within a short timeframe when this change goes live, in case they miss the update notes and pay to change it when they could just wait a day or two.
There's no charge to remake it when the update goes live I think, so you are probably misreading what this means.
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:48:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Malcanis
It's all a bit depressing. How can we fault CCP for reinvesting so much of their income into the game? Yet how can we praise them when the expenditure is producing so little benefit to it's customers?
Well on the bright side: at least we know where we stand now. All I can say is, Incarna had better be ****ing awesome, CCP, because if we've put up with your terrible game quality since December 09 and all we get to make up for it is talk in some stupid e-bar, then there will be hell to pay.
Start fixing **** now. Start telling us what you've fixed. Start telling us what you're going to fix next. Star Wars: The Old Republic launches soon, and those guys are gonna eat your lunch unless you shape the **** up.
Man... I hate to be able tell you I told you so . . . . Remember when everyone was saying "its a different group of devs..." "CCP isn't using all their resources on Incarna/Dust - Those are different dev groups..."
I *love* internet spaceships/drama/freeform game style... But not this crap.
This just feels like:
CSM: "We would like to look at features X, Y and Z, and see where you stand on fixing or iterating them as you told us you would do when you released them to us..." CCP: "LOL!" CSM: "What?" CCP: "LOL! STFU n00bs! HTFU!" CSM: "!?!"
To CCP: This is the best internet spaceships game going (at the moment). There is no guarantee that it will continue to be, especially with your attitude. I (don't) hate to break it to you, but Incarna and Dust are *not* relevant to your core subscriber base...
(Personally, without any player interaction planned more than what 2nd Life would deliver, why the f88k would anyone bother?).
To quote Malcanis again...
Originally by: Malcanis Start fixing **** now. Start telling us what you've fixed. Start telling us what you're going to fix next.
Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist NO! |
Heroldyn Yhamad
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:10:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 21:10:50 Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 21:10:08 Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 21:09:58
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes Man... I hate to be able tell you I told you so . . . . Remember when everyone was saying "its a different group of devs..." "CCP isn't using all their resources on Incarna/Dust - Those are different dev groups..."
You are confusing things a bit. Dust and Incarna are very seperate entities. Dust is a product outside of Eve Online and being developed from a seperate developer group in China. Incarna is a future Eve Online Feature and is being developed by the EVE developers for that reason. As far as I remember (and I might aswell be wrong), CCP never claimed that the Dev-Team working on the Incarna feature were outside of the EVE development team. |
d4shing
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:38:00 -
[83]
As DV said, it's pretty obvious that players can't credibly threaten to quit en masse.
It might be credible, though, for people to boycott for a single month. Say something like December, when people have holidays/exams/general RL stuff. I like the game, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm gonna quit immediately over their broken content development strategy, tho my interest is waning.
But I've got three accounts, and if I thought cancelling them all for a month along with a suitable number of other people would get them to listen, I'd do it. I'd think of it as training Excellence to level 5 (it's a rank 7 skill).
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.07.13 21:46:00 -
[84]
I just want to go on record with a bet that CCP will continue to clean up PI in order for it to function properly and in a way that goes well with Dust. CCP will then say "see we fix old content expansion".
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:21:00 -
[85]
Quote: Even though CCP would like to change Low Sec it will not happen in the next eighteen months.
WTF is that? I mean, how is it justified!? ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Shuckstar
Gallente Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2010.07.14 00:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Terrigal 2-3 years ago i used to rave about this game to anyone who would listen, now i dont even mention it.
CCP remember a happy customer tells 3-5 people about a good experience an unhappy customer tells 100's about their bad experience.
Yep was same as you, boasting how awesome EvE is. Now if a friend asked me about it or anyone i would tell them not to bother. I mean there Vids are good for the expansions but i point out to friends that game would crash, and you be lucky to get into game if involved in big fleet fights. Hell it pointless trying to fight with 100 in system these days.
You are going to fast! Wait five minutes and try again.
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Chiana Torrou
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:36:00 -
[87]
I've been playing eve since 2003/4 and I can honestly say that if I was still having to pay real money, instead of being able to buy PLEXes with isk, I would have cut my losses some time ago.
The only thing that keeps me here now is the fact that the game is - in effect - only costing my time. Time spent chatting to friends while making my 80mil a week target.
The things that originally attracted me to the game have been left to wither on the vine and the new stuff always comes in broken and gets forgotten after 6 - 8 months.
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.14 05:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Terrigal Edited by: Terrigal on 13/07/2010 18:38:46 "Players will be required, when the new character creator will be released, to recreate all avatars in the new system. CCP will probably continue to provide the paid service of remaking avatars. CSM requested that CCP take measures to compensate charges imposed for ôold styleö portrait swaps that occur within a reasonable time-frame prior to the release of the new character creator, as it didnÆt seem fair to charge people for something that would be negated by the new avatar requirements."
From what i'm reading from the minutes it means CCP intends to charge all players $15 to change their face and if this is the case a further $X amount will be charged to create a full body once Incarnaa is launched. I actually pay to play and have been for 3 years on 2 accounts, this is my preferance as id rather spend the isk i make on more PVP ships. CCP will there be a standard face and body I wont have to pay for? or will we all be forced to participate whether we like it or not?
ISO 9000 family The ISO 9000 family addresses "Quality management". This means what the organization does to fulfil: the customer's quality requirements, and applicable regulatory requirements, while aiming to enhance customer satisfaction, and achieve continual improvement of its performance in pursuit of these objectives
I guess theyll never try for this hahaha
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Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.07.14 06:23:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Kenpachi Viktor on 14/07/2010 06:24:41
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We have always spent ~20-30% of our development time on bugs and hardening. As history should show there is always a typically a slew of improvements and fixes alongside each major expansion which matter to many players if not necessarily yourself personally always.
-Chronotis
From reading the minutes; best I understand; what the CSM were(are) asking for, is to do just bugs/hardening/spit 'n polish development, for a release cycle.
Personally, I would be happy with 1 "expansion" per year going to polishing older content. Even if it was 1 every other year.
Edit: Quote is from this post
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TriIIian
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Posted - 2010.07.14 10:35:00 -
[90]
Edited by: TriIIian on 14/07/2010 10:35:43 I dont understand why it is CCP think they need to wait for expansions before they can fix stuff. Why not have a seperate team working on making small fixes. A small patch every couple of weeks to fix probelms. Just show us your doing something about the existing problems. 18 months before any real fixes. How can they even think it's alright to say that.
Eve is a great game. I have never played one game for so long. It does seem like broken things never get looked at or fixed. After 12 months without sound I'm just glad my sound is working again.
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Johnny Gurkha
We Are Flaming Dragon
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Posted - 2010.07.14 10:48:00 -
[91]
a 29 page wall of text I'm not reading because I can sum it up in bullet points:
a) the game is broken b) ccp can't do anything because of a crappy console fps c) it will remain so for along time to come and theres not alot you can do about it
do i get a cookie? |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.14 11:38:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 14/07/2010 11:39:03 There's a beauty to this mess: - players keep playing eve -> eve remains profitable -> management stays the course -> players lose - players quit en masse -> eve gets into the negative -> eve gets shut down -> players lose
There's a chance that enough but not too many players quit to make management take notice, take the right actions AND get eve back on track. Pretty slim if you ask me. So, will eve go the way of 9 out of 10 MMOs?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 11:49:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Johnny Gurkha a 29 page wall of text I'm not reading because I can sum it up in bullet points:
a) the game is broken b) ccp can't do anything because of a crappy console fps c) it will remain so for along time to come and theres not alot you can do about it
do i get a cookie?
There's other things of significance in there, plus a few scattered gems of good news, but yeah, you've got the core of it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Smyrk
SRE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:51:00 -
[94]
The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:09:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
Something has broken. Instead of the PDF it is returning a HTML page about the PDF. Because the URL ends in .pdf your browser is just passing it as is to the PDF viewer which is unable to display it.
I will try to find out what has happened...
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Rage Spear
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:20:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Rage Spear on 14/07/2010 16:22:04 Really embarrassing for CCP and depressing for the rest of us.
Hopefully this debacle will force CCP to realise that a relatively small effort from them to fix the really easy and frustrating problems would pay massive dividends in terms of community relations.
EDIT: Pulling the minutes off the website probably won't help
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:25:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
It better be identical :P By all means change the shiny stuff like logos, but not any contents :P
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Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:47:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu on 14/07/2010 16:47:30
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
I might be in need of a tinfoil hat, but just a note; The original version is safely on my disk and I will be comparing the two for any ninja edits.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: CCP Navigator A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
What changed, if this is a new version?
Life In Low Sec |
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Rage Spear
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:51:00 -
[101]
Could you define "New Version" please? There were some pretty glaring spelling errors that I could understand you wanting to sort out.
Will there be a change-log and have the CSM been consulted about the changes?
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Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:53:00 -
[102]
Original version, just in case they accidentally the original and didn't save a copy :P
Btw, it lacked logos and such :/ ≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business. Now all that's left, serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna. |
Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:55:00 -
[103]
I did a cursory comparison between what's downloadable now and what is saved on my 2nd PC and saw no difference, so it seems to be the same file.
:puts the tinfoil hat away:
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:03:00 -
[104]
Wow, the drama resulting form the latest CSM minutes is better than the game itself. It has all the needed features; intrigues, lack of trust, lies, damn lies, layoffs, incompetence, extortion, threats you name it.
CCP has certainly lost the ball when it comes to customer trust.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:19:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu I did a cursory comparison between what's downloadable now and what is saved on my 2nd PC and saw no difference, so it seems to be the same file.
:puts the tinfoil hat away:
A quick diff shows 3 lines were changed and in each case it was to add to (or correct) the list of CCP who attended.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Cyndre Valryssian
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:57:00 -
[106]
Isn't it better to admit now that the CSM is a nice idea in theory but in actuality it really IS a marketing exercise to demonstrate engagement with the customer base to defuse tensions and encourage subscription retention? Ultimately CCP develop and run the game and so decisions will always reflect their interests, ambitions and vision. Players are no doubt heard from forum posts, feedback and petitions and it is unlikely CCP is not aware of what frustrates them as demonstrated in alot of the feedback from the meetings.
I'd rather see regular state of the game blogs from senior developers encompassing design vision and stated aims than continue to push the facade that is the CSM, a group that from voting figures doesn't even enjoy the full confidence and support of the player base.
The latest minutes just seem to confirm the obvious and the real influence is exercised by players and their choice over whether to subscribe or not. I for one continue to trust CCP to support their creation and unlike some companies (SOE **Cough cough**) they genuinely do seem to care about the game as more than a financial endevour.
Anyway just a thought after reading.
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Rhok Relztem
Caldari CGMA Synergist Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:58:00 -
[107]
After reading through the minutes (and some sections more than once), I'm left with mixed feelings about CCP, the actual effectiveness of the CSM, and the future of EVE in general.
I'm all for Incarna personally and have been anticipating it for a long time, but after reading the responses from the devs at the meeting, Incarna is not going to be anything like I (and probably many others) had envisioned and hoped for. Incarna is going to be nothing more than a piece of fluff that has literally no game impact and will be left floundering in a semi-finished state shortly after it is released. There will be no interaction with Dust players in the stations, no walking in your ships, and probably no walking on moons nor your PI complexes, etc. There will be no fighting or other activity other than pure socializing and playing mini games. The potential is there for Incarna to be an outstanding addition to the EVE universe, but I seriously doubt it will ever come close to that potential.
The winter expansion that is supposed to be all about fixes and polish is also going to include new character models which will force every EVE player to redo their avatars. This isn't just a shiny new feature or merely an upgrade, it is the precursor to Incarna since with Incarna, you will need full-bodied avatars and not just a head and shoulders pic. That in itself is a major undertaking and doesn't involve just graphics. So where is the time and manpower coming from for the 'fixes & polish' they say is going to be the focus of that winter expansion? I fully expect that there will be some, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that those fixes and polish won't include any of the major issues (i.e. FW, lowsec space, learning skills, bounty hunting & smuggling, lag, imbalances of weapons and ammo, useless ships, etc.).
18 months in the gaming world is a long, LONG time. There are a lot of games on the horizon, many anticipated by the same type of player that plays EVE. CCP claims that data doesn't support the assumption that polished content retains more players and sells more subs than does new features and additions. That is just ludicrous. How many games have failed due to poor maintenance and half-finished features? How many games have languished with a small player base due to broken promises of improvement and updated features while rolling out update after update of things the players care nothing about and fixing things that aren't broken (the new PLEX revision is a great example)? The data doesn't support it simply because there is no MMO developer with the gonads to attempt an entire expansion of nothing but fixes and polish. If CCP truly wants to commit to excellence as their new motto for the year states, then stall DUST 514 and Incarna for a period and commit the resources and manpower to fixing and polishing the basic EVE. My guess is that the media and the gamers would eat it up. CCP would be hailed as truly innovative and committed to excellence and I'd bet that the subs for EVE would go up as well as a higher interest in DUST 514 when it is released.
My gut feeling is that the devs and management are beginning to lose interest in EVE after all of these years. DUST 514 and WoD are becoming the focus and Incarna is just a way of placating the many players (whether a majority or a very vocal minority) who have been clamoring for it since the beginning. Many, if not most, of the devs no longer even play the game, they have lost touch with the players, CSM is nothing more than a figurehead of the players that really has no power to get anything done, and all of the major issues with the game are more or less ignored.
I'm currently only playing EVE. I happen to like most of the devs and the game is still, IMO, one of the best on the market today, but its future is beginning to worry me. I've played many MMOs and other genres in my gaming lifetime and have witnessed many go down this same path. I hope I'm wrong.
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.15 02:11:00 -
[108]
Second life in stations = Incarna
Ring a bell anyone
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.15 09:01:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 15/07/2010 09:07:40
Originally by: Cyndre Valryssian Isn't it better to admit now that the CSM is a nice idea in theory but in actuality it really IS a marketing exercise to demonstrate engagement with the customer base to defuse tensions and encourage subscription retention?
I disagree because very little more would be required for it to be more than just marketing: CCP committing some dev resources to CSM requests (as implied by "stakeholder" status). This must be reflected in CCPs resource planning. Even just 5% of the total dev resources would do wonders. I'm guestimating that would mean about half the resources of one scrum team. Seeing that many CSM requests are low hanging fruits, a lot could be done with that already.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.15 14:15:00 -
[110]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Wow CCP alt much?
Your excuses for CCP are absolutely pathetic
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.15 14:35:00 -
[111]
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Wow CCP alt much?
Your excuses for CCP are absolutely pathetic
hmmm..
how appropriate, you fight like a cow !
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.07.16 06:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.16 16:17:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Ban Doga Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
This seems to be the six dollar question. Is CSM going to give input on incarna and Dust? If not then it seems their input is not relevant. If CSM members are going to give input on incarna and dust, then they should make it clear it's just their own personal opinions and not claim its the views of the players as a whole. No players really know enough about these other games to discuss them or formulate opinions of how they should be developed.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:22:00 -
[114]
This to be fair has to be resolved CCP must invest in polishing game content for a time, personally I'm hopefull they will eventually get the message but we're already startinjg to loose long term players like flies we all know of them we've all played with them hell it might be an idea to start a forum and list all the people you know who have left the game due to frustration with this issue.
However I'd like to explain how the top level managers don't have a clue whats happening through my own experiences of corporate business, it goes something like this:
Staff/Low end managers: "GOD DAMNIT SOMETHINGS TERRIBLY WRONG HERE!"
Middle management at the board meetings: "As you can see we're doing exceptionally well in these areas here are some (Cherry picked) statistics showing our great success".
Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
Rinse repeat until company starts loosing money and low level workers get made redundant followed by asset stripping and eventual sale of the entity.
Descisions made of win
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Krans Hopeson
Hulkageddon Orphanage HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:31:00 -
[115]
Originally by: FlyingSpoonyBadger Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
This is probably true -- or would be if CCP wasn't a privately owned company owned by the execs. -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:42:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Krans Hopeson
Originally by: FlyingSpoonyBadger Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
This is probably true -- or would be if CCP wasn't a privately owned company owned by the execs.
Board members are always incentivised by share options its a way to actually try and force them to do well (By linking their own personal economic gain through company growth, this also explains a lot behind why CEO's want immediate growth as they're generally only with a company for a limited period before they cash in), either way however someone is making the cash and basing their descisions on what middle management (Or whoever is pulling the figures out of their hat at the time) are reporting. Problem is the middle management barrier which is generally based upon the fact that no one wants to say "We need to improve in areas X & Z" because that means either a solid questioning on why there is a problem in the firstplace or an increased workload whilst the changes are being made and hell who wants that eh?
Anyhoo this is just a theory on my behalf so please don't take it seriously I could well be and probably am wrong most of the time
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Philderbeast
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Posted - 2010.07.17 10:27:00 -
[117]
well i just got around to reading these and i must say it's disappointing...
there was a lot of wait 18months fr bug fixes, and no real commitments to fix the issues.
I hope that the CSM will be able to post the list of issues in the backlog publicly will be good to see whats going on and be able to see its progress to being delivered.
but my biggest disappointment is that CCP cant spare a small team of devs to work on the polish of the game, I'm sure even a team of 3 - 5 could make a huge impact working on the little things.... surely they can spare that many to keep people subscribed to the game?
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Darveses
DAEDALUS X The Final Stand.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 12:25:00 -
[118]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
how appropriate, you fight like a cow !
Monkey Island = Best Game ---
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 19:44:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ban Doga Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
This seems to be the six dollar question. Is CSM going to give input on incarna and Dust? If not then it seems their input is not relevant. If CSM members are going to give input on incarna and dust, then they should make it clear it's just their own personal opinions and not claim its the views of the players as a whole. No players really know enough about these other games to discuss them or formulate opinions of how they should be developed.
I suspect that the upper management of EVE would sell their daughters to a renegade Klan biker gang before they let the CSM get within 30 meters of anything to do with Dust. or Incarna.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.18 11:27:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Malcanis I suspect that the upper management of EVE would sell their daughters to a renegade Klan biker gang before they let the CSM get within 30 meters of anything to do with Dust. or Incarna.
According to CCP Zulu(park)'s dev blog CCP are including Incarna teams when talking about the number of dev's working on Eve.
Thus if Incarna is Eve then the CSM would in theory have the same input as they do with flying in space (I'll leave that open for a joke about the CSM having no real input ).
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.07.18 14:10:00 -
[121]
Originally by: TeaDaze
Thus if Incarna is Eve then the CSM would in theory have the same input as they do with flying in space (I'll leave that open for a joke about the CSM having no real input ).
Well, the influence of the CSM seems to be quite limited...
Better than no influence at all though and I apreciate the hours you guys put in. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Burning Furry
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Posted - 2010.07.27 07:10:00 -
[122]
Confirming both my accounts are now cancelled. Will not be re-suscribing.
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Louanne Barros
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.28 19:34:00 -
[123]
Quote: It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features.
Dear CCP,
We built a multi billion dollar company based on exactly the opposite of what you just said.
Sincerely,
Steve Jobs
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SickSeven
Nova Aquilae
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:55:00 -
[124]
Edited by: SickSeven on 13/08/2010 23:56:42 I read most of it, enought to be... well mad. I agree with a lot of other paying customers here: The thing that was stated over and over from CCP in this meeting was: We are doing "this" for the next 18months, no matter how well you try to convince us otherwise, we may start to consider your concerns a year and a half from now.
Wow, W T F is the CSM for? I absolutely commend this iteration of the CSM for putting it to CCP and representing the concerns of the player base very well. Unfortunately for all of us CCP just gave them the finger. I can promise you that players canceled their subscriptions after reading those minutes. This meeting proved that CCP is going to do what they want regardless of outside influence.
And I'm still waiting to hear what is going to make Incarna worth 3 years of development, and degraded game quality/polish for the next 18 months...... You can't do anything meaningful outside of your ship, so why has this 'feature' taken up so much time and resources? Especially at the cost of previous expansions that have been abandoned in unfinished states? You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue |
rantuket
Caldari SPORADIC MOVEMENT The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.19 01:21:00 -
[125]
Quote: pg 4. In time for the 5th CSM December Summit, CCP will tag all CSM-raised issues currently in the backlog and have a list of them made available to the CSM.
Will be interesting to see if this gets done and what is in it.
Quote: pg 6. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
Fixing lag is only 1 element of a very big picture, the amount of promised changes for small elements (rockets, AF's for example) should be a solid focus point as much as giving me a ****ty incarna mini game that I will never use.
Quote: pg 20. Although CCP has no room for Low Sec changes for a minimum of 18 months
A minimum of 18 months... that is before they will even look into the issues let alone develop fixes or roll out changes. It is a shame that such a large portion of the game will not see any love for 2 years.
Quote: pg 26. CSM will provide a list of key balance issues to CCP. CCP will review the list and respond with a benefit analysis and proposed actions. CSM will then submit a prioritized list of balance items.
So these issues will be looked at in 18 months along with everything not related to walking in stations?
Overall very much a let down, PI brought a new set of industry which is no fun and anything but exciting. How they will make people fight over such pitiful planet side income is certainly a mystery.
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Cromo Effect
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.21 08:17:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: TeaDaze
Thus if Incarna is Eve then the CSM would in theory have the same input as they do with flying in space (I'll leave that open for a joke about the CSM having no real input ).
Well, the influence of the CSM seems to be quite limited...
Better than no influence at all though and I apreciate the seconds you guys put in.
FYP
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.13 10:41:00 -
[127]
CSM,
Sorry to say but I will come back in 18 months to get the CSM5 information feedback.
Enjoy your meeting pontifications but players except information.
Not just reading you meeting planing agenda.
At least just the facts but I see nothing except that you will give them to us...sounds like CCP. thnen as CCP player will expect results in 18 moths.
Yeay
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Yeay Fritg CSM,
Sorry to say but I will come back in 18 months to get the CSM5 information feedback.
Enjoy your meeting pontifications but players except information.
Not just reading you meeting planing agenda.
At least just the facts but I see nothing except that you will give them to us...sounds like CCP. thnen as CCP player will expect results in 18 moths.
Yeay
I'm slightly unsure what your complaint is here. We publish our meeting discussions and we make available information from CCP when we get it (providing they are not under NDA).
We have something in progress which will provide some additional information, watch this space.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.13 13:05:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 13/09/2010 13:06:52 Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 13/09/2010 13:05:51 Hello,
I'm complaining about a clear answers, a list of point where can see rapidly what's on the table between CSM and CCP. Who hold the point and who needs to act in a list ?
CSM not publishing cause CSM does not agree internally ? CSM not publishing cause CCP does not allow to ? CCP does not answer you but engaged to do it ? Why does it take so long just to have a clear view about dates ? Who needs to act ? Does the CSM have answer of CCP ? Which subject CCP does not give you date/answers on ? For an issue where can I have a date of resolution ? Where can I see a list ?
State which point is under NDA ?
NDA means no information from us, please state them too !
I find some elements but please make a list link on the forum about the relevant wikipage. May be a thread just for us to follow ?
Thank you for publishing the Log but do you think we can follow you by reading a discussion we aren't aware of the exact details just by the Logs ?
CSM is too much a black box concerning what's on the table with CCP. I'm sure you have the information but make it clearly on a page where we can go and clearly see what's on the table please.
Yeay
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.13 14:19:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Yeay Fritg I'm complaining about a clear answers, a list of point where can see rapidly what's on the table between CSM and CCP. Who hold the point and who needs to act in a list ?
I don't have time to respond in detail but these two wiki categories are a good place to start.
Issues raised by CSM waiting responses from CCP
CSM Issues resolved by CCP - Not 100% accurate because tracking of CSM issues by CCP won't be in place till the next summit meeting in December.
Originally by: Yeay Fritg CSM not publishing cause CSM does not agree internally ?
CSM publishes all meeting logs except sections where there is discussion of NDA items (this doesn't happen very often, maybe 5 times in the last year). Also CSM maintains the wiki. What else are you expecting?
Originally by: Yeay Fritg CSM not publishing cause CCP does not allow to?
Only items under NDA are not published.
Originally by: Yeay Fritg
CCP does not answer you but engaged to do it ? Why does it take so long just to have a clear view about dates ? Who needs to act ? Does the CSM have answer of CCP ? Which subject CCP does not give you date/answers on ? For an issue where can I have a date of resolution ? Where can I see a list ?
Most of this would come under CCP's development schedules which are decided after considering all the issues raised by the Eve stakeholders (which the CSM is one of). CSM can request information from CCP and frequently does. See the other business sections of most meetings where status updates are discussed.
Originally by: Yeay Fritg State which point is under NDA ?
NDA means no information from us, please state them too !
I can't tell you what items are under NDA, sorry. All I can say there is very little under NDA right now and one thing should be published this week.
Originally by: Yeay Fritg Thank you for publishing the Log but do you think we can follow you by reading a discussion we aren't aware of the exact details just by the Logs ?
Yes. The exact details of issues under discussion are in the wiki and in the meeting logs. The logs and voting results are public and the issues are on the wiki which links to the original assembly hall threads. It is all there.
Originally by: Yeay Fritg CSM is too much a black box concerning what's on the table with CCP. I'm sure you have the information but make it clearly on a page where we can go and clearly see what's on the table please.
Incorrect. All player issues raised by CSM to CCP are clearly displayed on the wiki.
If you want to know the date when things are going to be resolved then I have to say that nobody, not even CCP, can say that for the majority of the issues.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
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Yeay Fritg
Caldari Confrerie de Kaedri Cluster Of Rebirth
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Posted - 2010.09.13 15:16:00 -
[131]
Thank you
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