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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Merkal Aubauch
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
11
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:05:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:Daneel Trevize wrote:Hmm, doesn't this missile/TE change mean TEs really need considering for a nerf/reduction of the last buff they got? -Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit) ^_^ means heavy missiles will have even less damage.lets compare this right now a drake has about 450 dps`ish with fury and 5 t2 drones compared to a hurricane that has well over 800 dps with t2 drones :D gg ccp
ham drake up to 599dps vs AC cane 633 up to around 700
hml drake around 495 dps vs ARTY cane around 361 dps |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
331
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:06:00 -
[1232] - Quote
BTW, they didn't nerf the Missile range. If you wanna hit out to 70+ in your Drake, Fit a TC II and add the Range script. Thats Plus 30% range right there. Thats 5% MORE then they took off the base range.
They didn't nerf the range. Just moved longer range to a fitting option. Add two and well, Drakes can't target that far so don't worry about it. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
36
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:07:00 -
[1233] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. There will ALWAYS be trade-offs, now missile boats will have to deal with having to make a choice, too.
EDIT: I just read the drone DPS bit. Aside from the fact that you can't even control drones past 59 kilometers, they won't even be applying any sensible amount of damage since they'd be spending 90% of their uptime trying to reach a target instead.
The cerberus has a max effective weapon range of 170ish km The cerberus has a max targeting range of 100ish km
As a Long Range sniper, if CANNOT apply webifier affects, or warp disruption affects To get its maximum range it requires either a local Sensor Booster sacrificing a tanking/AB slot, or a remote boost sacrificing another dps ship in fleet
re:Drone Control Range Base range -- +20km Scout Drone Op -- +25km ECM drone op -- +21km
Drone Link II -- +24km each (normaly 1, occasionally 2) 66km without links 90km with 1 link 114km with 2 links
as targets are usually grouped in clumps, applying that dps isnt really much of an issue after the initial travel delay.
infact drones have a lot in common with missiles Travel time to target Can be shot at en route Can be smart bombed
So yeah ok, go ahead and nerf my 400dps Cerberus to oblivion. Dont come crying to me, when your 800dps Ishtar is crippled back into the stoneage. |
Beachura
Perkone Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:07:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:Signal11th wrote:feihcsiM wrote:Seranova Farreach wrote:Beachura wrote:Unfortunately I fear that the nighthawk has been caught up in this and will suffer horribly because of this. s some eft warriors already crunshed numbers its normal dps of like 450 to 550 will drop off to like low 300s. How does this compare with Rail Astarte, Arty Sleipnir, Beam Absolution? It seem you can get 700dps from an Arty Sleipnir using T2 Arty, a tad more than the nighthawks 300 it looks like. (obviously you have to factor in drone dps as well). Range? Hit quality? Why are you ignoring the other two command ships? Is it because you've got nothing sensible to say? Long range damage platforms are supposed to be weak, in favor of a larger range to produce the damage in. Artilleries have a longer range, but a lot of it is fall-off, which means the quality and accuracy of the damage will quickly drop to a point where you'll be wishing you'd brought heavy missiles instead. You can't have your cake and eat it. There will ALWAYS be trade-offs, now missile boats will have to deal with having to make a choice, too. EDIT: I just read the drone DPS bit. Aside from the fact that you can't even control drones past 59 kilometers, they won't even be applying any sensible amount of damage since they'd be spending 90% of their uptime trying to reach a target instead.
Aside from the fact insulting others in a thread gets you nowhere, a command ship is a long term skill plan that costs a considerable volume of cash. A drake can be trained in a few weeks, such can the tengu although it's price is also high. A command ship is a ship that with support skills is commonly only flown well by characters with 30 million + skillpoints and consists of years of prior training to get close to maximizing it's ability.
Heavy missiles worked because they dealt less damage than their turret counter parts, the range reduction is somewhat justified as it brings the missile into line and reduces the considered overpowered nature of the drake. I support the reduction of the drake and tengu, but the damage reduction severely damages other class of ship which were not on any imaginable level overpowered to begin with such as the command ship and hac.
Heavy missiles now do much reduced damage per second when it was already low to begin with (understandably low to keep balance). Heavy missiles are also affected by smartbombs, bombs, tracking disruption and defender missiles (ignoring neuting and ECM which affect everything arguably)
Heavy missiles also have a time to target whereas turrets hit instantly.
I do not believe it is justified to spend 400 million isk and spend two years training a ship class which is classed as a 'field' ship, a frontline command ship with a weapon system which can be disrupted by all means barring neutralizing at a mediocre 50 something kilometers dealing 300 damage per second. I do not care for a second that command ships have an extremely good tank, it is something I expect for that price and kind of commitment. |
Anah Karah
Origin. Black Legion.
9
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:07:00 -
[1235] - Quote
To get a word in before another 10 pages of s***posting, I like the idea of some of these changes but not all.
I love the idea of Tracking disruptors affecting missiles, despite people complaining that the word 'tracking' is somehow breaking immersion, but that's an easy fix. This will bring on a whole new realm of solo PVP iterating on the Ancillary shield boosters etc which has been needed for too long. This may cause the module to be too widely used as 'the new ECM' but i'd be willing to make the mistake and see what happens.
The double Nerf to Heavy missiles seems harsh to me at current stats especially as mentioned to such ships as the Caracal and Cerberus who sorely need love to become useful with current game mechanics. The Tengu needs a Nerf and maybe the drake needs to become less versatile but overall i've seen too many goon Drakes die in a fire over the last few months to think them overpowered. These latter two ships seem to be the root of this problem despite me being a drake lover from birth. It is all too easy to mitigate missile damage with speed, sig radius and/or smartbombs unlike turrets which have no hard fleet wide counter assuming good planning and tactics, and it has taken many years of patches for these few Caldari ships to finally become common in pvp.
Lastly i think this Minmatar artillery buff is good at heart but flawed in essence. Minmatar weaponry maybe less effective on paper than other similar sized variants but in practice alpha beats dps at range and having cap-less guns is a massive advantage and similar to missiles being able to pick 3/4 pure damage types. Making these even easier to fit seems to me like a fatal mistake.
The Hurricane falls in the same category as the Drake and Tengu in that it is too versatile, and also in the same light too good at a certain particular role ie solo Autocannons with neuts etc. Honestly i still believe this is a fault of minmatar weaponry over the ship itself being too good but lets see what happens during testing.
-Anah- |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
21
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:08:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Mr John Smith wrote:but seriously, the range nerf to HML's was warranted, they are a cruiser based weapon after all and the range on some missile boats is pretty ridiculous, but 20% damage?
They are a BC based weapon surely? Light Missiles are a Cruiser based platform.
The men waved their hats, the ladies their umbrellas. One felt they would have liked to touch the steel muscles of the most courageous champions since antiquity. Who will carry off the first prize, entering the pantheon where only supermen may go? |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:09:00 -
[1237] - Quote
A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
747
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:12:00 -
[1238] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:Signal11th wrote:feihcsiM wrote:Seranova Farreach wrote:Beachura wrote:Unfortunately I fear that the nighthawk has been caught up in this and will suffer horribly because of this. s some eft warriors already crunshed numbers its normal dps of like 450 to 550 will drop off to like low 300s. How does this compare with Rail Astarte, Arty Sleipnir, Beam Absolution? It seem you can get 700dps from an Arty Sleipnir using T2 Arty, a tad more than the nighthawks 300 it looks like. (obviously you have to factor in drone dps as well). Range? Hit quality? Why are you ignoring the other two command ships? Is it because you've got nothing sensible to say? Long range damage platforms are supposed to be weak, in favor of a larger range to produce the damage in. Artilleries have a longer range, but a lot of it is fall-off, which means the quality and accuracy of the damage will quickly drop to a point where you'll be wishing you'd brought heavy missiles instead. You can't have your cake and eat it. There will ALWAYS be trade-offs, now missile boats will have to deal with having to make a choice, too. EDIT: I just read the drone DPS bit. Aside from the fact that you can't even control drones past 59 kilometers, they won't even be applying any sensible amount of damage since they'd be spending 90% of their uptime trying to reach a target instead.
Ahh you again. Good Afternoon. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Inggroth
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
21
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:12:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. Which is exactly as it should be. Beam Harbinger, Rail Brutix and Artycane arent exactly dps monsters too.
And HAM Drake will be even better post HM nerf. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:14:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. Which is exactly as it should be. Beam Harbinger, Rail Brutix and Artycane arent exactly dps monsters too. And HAM Drake will be even better post HM nerf.
A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts. |
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Lev Arturis
Dark-Rising
9
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:14:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters.
A Rail Brutix/Beam Harbinger with perfect gunnery skills can still be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters.
Fit Heavy Assault Missiles. But wait....you need to get closer to your victims. |
Inggroth
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
21
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:17:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. And more limited range. Its called balance. |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
196
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:20:00 -
[1243] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. Which is exactly as it should be. Beam Harbinger, Rail Brutix and Artycane arent exactly dps monsters too. And HAM Drake will be even better post HM nerf. A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Heavy Missiles are not a close range, high DPS platform.
They are just like artillery/rails/beams in that they are high alpha low DPS. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:20:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Lev Arturis wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. A Rail Brutix/Beam Harbinger with perfect gunnery skills can still be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters.
Er....no it cant? |
Laura Dexx
Snuff Box
24
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:21:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. Its called balance.
What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore? |
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc Goonswarm Federation
196
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:22:00 -
[1246] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lev Arturis wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A drake with perfect HML skills can now be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. A Rail Brutix/Beam Harbinger with perfect gunnery skills can still be tanked by a single rep myrm until the myrm runs out of cap boosters. Er....no it cant?
Could you provide sources? My EFT's with 3x gyro/mag/bcu/heat sink show that all the platforms do similar or less damage than HML's and certainly don't have the same ranges with high DPS ammo. |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
62
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:23:00 -
[1247] - Quote
When did arty canes have zero tank? |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
7
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:23:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Merkal Aubauch wrote:Recoil IV wrote:Daneel Trevize wrote:Hmm, doesn't this missile/TE change mean TEs really need considering for a nerf/reduction of the last buff they got? -Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit) ^_^ means heavy missiles will have even less damage.lets compare this right now a drake has about 450 dps`ish with fury and 5 t2 drones compared to a hurricane that has well over 800 dps with t2 drones :D gg ccp ham drake up to 599dps vs AC cane 633 up to around 700 hml drake around 495 dps vs ARTY cane around 361 dps
not much differance |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
207
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:23:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore?
Of course you can.
For the next three months at least.
|
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:23:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. Its called balance. What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore?
Artycanes have 91% of the total ehp of a podla drake, along with more speed and like 60% the signature radius. |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1178
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:25:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:War Kitten wrote:
I'm not suggesting that at all.
I'm suggesting you make comparisons that are meaningful. Yes, scourge missiles project farther than their counterpart in damage for turrets. But those graphs cherry pick some of the worst DPS turret ammo and compare them to the 2nd best HML ammo, simply to try and compare range projections.
Compare Tech II long range ammo across the board. Compare Faction DPS ammo across the board. Compare Tech II high DPS "tracking" ammo across the board.
Then compare the results of each of those graphs to find the balance. Don't cherry pick your data.
You keep saying this but I think you're confused. There is no T2 long range ammo for HMLs. You're thinking of Javelin missiles which are only usable in HAMs. The T2 missiles for HMLs are: Precision Heavy Missile for taking down frigates. Fury Heavy Missile for taking down battlecruisers and up. Both have lower range than their T1 equivalent. Fury HMs are not far behind and actually have an even better dps/range ratio than CN Scourge HMs. So no, there is no cherry picking going on. The discrepancy really is that large.
Aww crap, you're right. I was thinking of T2 HAM ammo.
I guess if we're supposed to think of HMLs as railguns, the nerfs make sense... and they'll still be better than railguns.
But then, wouldn't it make sense for HAMs to require *less* powergrid than HMLs now too? Every other weapon system has the short range/DPS platform require less powergrid. But HAMs require more than HMLs.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:26:00 -
[1252] - Quote
hey ccp,can i get back all my caldari spaceshit and missile skills reimbursed into skillpoints so i can invest them in something usefull after the nerf.thanks :D |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:27:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Laura Dexx wrote:Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. Its called balance. What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore? Artycanes have 91% of the total ehp of a podla drake, along with more speed and like 60% the signature radius.
Also, thats not to say the artycane isnt a wholly outdated platform nowadays, with the autocannon nado taking its place. |
Laura Dexx
Snuff Box
24
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:28:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Laura Dexx wrote:Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. Its called balance. What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore? Artycanes have 91% of the total ehp of a podla drake, along with more speed and like 60% the signature radius.
The drake has better range and more efficiently applies its damage, and it has a lot of bonus slots for E-War (in the PODLA set-up, at least). Anyways, with MWD active, your signature radius blooms past anything that would be considered obstructive to battleship or dreadnought-sized weaponry anyways, so that's hardly a point. |
Shokre O'Corwi
The Squid Squad Slumdogs
5
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:28:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Looks like I'm still the only person who took the time to read the whole first post... |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
7
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:28:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:hey ccp,can i get back all my caldari spaceshit and missile skills reimbursed into skillpoints so i can invest them in something usefull after the nerf.thanks :D
invest in ishtar and drones thats still 800+ atm untill drones get a nerfbat too |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
747
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:30:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:Inggroth wrote:Michael Harari wrote: A myrm cant tank an artycane on a single rep. Artycanes outdamage drakes as they are now AND are faster AND have a larger drone bay AND still have small neuts.
Artycanes also have zero tank. Its called balance. What do you mean I have to make choices? I can't have tank, range, sustained damage and alpha damage in one ship anymore?
And they you go, in one ship...so nerf the ships not the missiles. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:32:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:Recoil IV wrote:hey ccp,can i get back all my caldari spaceshit and missile skills reimbursed into skillpoints so i can invest them in something usefull after the nerf.thanks :D invest in ishtar and drones thats still 800+ atm untill drones get a nerfbat too
sad,but true.i can already smell riots in jita just like when cq was introduced :D |
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
0
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Posted - 2012.09.19 12:32:00 -
[1259] - Quote
The tears in this thread are so ******* delicious.
"bawwww this game is LITERALLY ruined because i might have to change my drake/hurricane fit"
People like you are the main danger to EVE. Shaking op the status quo of ship fitting is an objectively good thing to do for the game. It means that, for a short while, the creative, innovative, intelligent players come up with new fits and new strategies and they're successful. At the same time, the people who just look up the FOTM fit on battleclinic and copy/paste it are lost for a while as they try to fit a square peg into a round hole by using their old fits even though those old fits aren't good anymore.
So, if you're an intelligent player, you should love this, because you have an opportunity to innovate and create new strategies. And if you're not, well i guess you're going to wait until someone smarter than you posts a fit on battleclinc for you to copy. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 12:32:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Laura Dexx wrote:
The drake has better range and more efficiently applies its damage.
Against some things, sure.
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