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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
618
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:12:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I can see your thinking but still think this would increase the separation between the empires and benefit only the larger groups. It would be too easy for large corps to choke the trade routes to all but themselves (and allies). This would not encourage people to leave hi-sec at all but further entrench them I feel.
Hi-sec serves a purpose and needs to be freely navigable to do so, as you say greater profits are available from low/null but individuals must choose to make that jump, not be forced to do so.
Enticements and inducements to run into low would be better than creating low-sec buffer zones. I regularly jump into low and have great fun running through in a crappy nereus. Is it nerve-wracking? Hell yes...Is it fun? Damn right...Do I care if I lose a crappy loot fitted t1 hauler? nope. We need ways to show people that it's fun to do things differently, but even then if manufacturing in hi-sec is their thing good luck to them. It should always be a choice to enter low-sec space.
All I could see happening would be blockade runners hauling goods the 2 jumps from area to area, pretty much limiting the inter-regional trade ti high isk density goods or bulk goods carried by corps big enough to mount a defensible convoy
A different take on this... Hi-Sec folks tend to include the PvE people who would be interested in better storyline development etc. Some kind of storyline development that drew them into low-sec by jumping in through empire dropped cynos and such would be more likely to draw them in to run missions. If the mission site was effectively safe until completion, but you were on your own to make your way out afterwards then I think this would likely draw more people in and provide better hunting opportunities for the low-sec folks too.
The higher level the mission, the further into low you are dropped so a lvl II mission would drop you 2 jumps in, lvl II 3 jumps in, lvl IV 4 jumps in. You want all the loot and salvage? Better bring a corpmate to help carry it. You'd also better be ready to fight your way out...
These kind of missions could easily be linked to story developments in futre and even live events setup.
You say you think this and feel that. I understand the feelings but in truth improvements to human society don't happen through thoughts and feelings, they happen through rigorous examination of the facts and the testing of hypotheses (thoughts) against experimental data (facts). I am of course thinking of such things and the eradication of Polio, Smallpox, malnutrition and so on..
So lets look at some facts.
We do have storyline missions that draw you into lowsec. We do have level 5 missions, which are exclusively in lowsec. These things exist. They may be a bit rubbish and in need of improvement, I'll grant you that. But they are there.
Another fact is that lowsec dwellers don't need to be given opportunities - they are the kind of people who find them. This trait is common to successful people in real life. While some accept the staus-quo and/or moan about their weight, poverty, race, gender or whatever; others get off their bums and make stuff happen. Behold the lowsec priate/explorer/FW pilot.
My view is that hisec is full of people who would like some adventure, but need a reason. This is how you get otherwise intelligent young men to fight in a bloody dangerous war - you give them a cause.
At the moment, there is no cause. Hisec is full of people not realising their potential. Trolling around from jita to Osmon, earning isk to bling up ships which hisec pirates then blow up for fun, profit and tears!
I have to be completely honest with you - I have lost more ships in hisec than in low, null and w-space put together. Hisec makes you lazy and passive, but it's actually very dangerous if you are carrying anything of value, or even just meet someone who likes ganking people. You cannot take preemptive action against pirates - you are entirely at their mercy.
It might be surprising to read this, but this is how the pirates, griefers and trolls see it. In lowsec they really have to work hard for their kills - because people shoot back first!
There is another theme to your post - this idea of "big corps" gate-camping choke points. First of all, "big corps" have better things to do than hunting low value targets for more than a short time. They have plex's to buy and pvp ships to replace. They need to make money. You only make money by going after high value targets. High value targets make money by avoiding trouble. The OP is proposing multiple lowsec routes between regions - i.e. no choke points. There will always be a way round.
I have further proposed that there could be one, long highsec route between regions. Something quite boringly long like 20 or 30 jumps. Then if you really, really want to avoid lowsec you can do it, but the extra money will be made by managing risks through the lowsec routes. This then does give what we agree people need - incentive. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1104
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 18:22:00 -
[1202] - Quote
A real dev post would be nice... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
DSpite Culhach
284
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 19:37:00 -
[1203] - Quote
The kind of issues I see with these changes is that the game has been running 10 years. All the "tricks" that can be extracted from the mechanics have been already found, and are been milked non stop.
If you did this, it would have zero effect on the large established organizations, that are already making a ton of money in null, and usually just come to hisec to suicide gank blingy ships and overloaded freighters. With this move, they will start making even more isk, and now with no ships lost to CONCORD.
I only see Red/Black Frog gaining a ton more freighter and escort pilots and making a killing in the new economy, doing all the heavy lifting for everyone.
It's not that I mind the general idea, but unless CCP brings out an expansion called Scorched Universe, I don't see it happening. ~ |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
205
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Posted - 2014.02.19 19:46:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: You say you think this and feel that. I understand the feelings but in truth improvements to human society don't happen through thoughts and feelings, they happen through rigorous examination of the facts and the testing of hypotheses (thoughts) against experimental data (facts). I am of course thinking of such things and the eradication of Polio, Smallpox, malnutrition and so on..
OK 'Thoughts and feelings' aside lets go with facts. Sunai's previous post sums it up. Those with no wish to leave hi-sec never will and no amount of space between hisec will make them do so, if anything no or only a very long hi-sec route would just push them from the game lowering the player base. Also this is assuming that a hisec playing style of manufacture/trade/PI is in some way invalid or less than a low-sec PvP choice. I entirely disagree here, each style takes a particular and distinct set of skills in character terms and in player terms.
As you say low sec missions do exist as do level V's but if you want more people coming into low you need to entice them in. Those who are averse do to the potential gate-camps on the way into low-sec need the initial impetus to make that jump...a new kind of mission landing someone in low-sec to avoid the initial barrier to them would persuade more to do so, and once they've been in they'll be back for more.
Those of us in hi-sec who want aome adventure already do go and find it, otherwise where would the new players in low/nu/WH's come from? The problem is to pursuade those wavering on the edge to make the jump. As for those who want to stay hi-sec and live a trading/manufacturing etc lifestyle? That's their choice, it's a perfectly valid choice and shouldn't b looked down upon in any way. In the same way that they would have no chance in PvP a PvP specialist is unlikely to stand a chance against them in business.
I like eve because of the distinct career possibilities and will always be opposed to anything that forces unnecessary change on any play style without very good reason. So far I haven't seen that good reason for this proposal. |
Kerblar Erzma
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.19 20:36:00 -
[1205] - Quote
Thinly veiled "i dont want my ship to be destroyed while suicide ganking freightes" thread. It already is zero risk game, you want everything to be handed to you on a plate? |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
618
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Posted - 2014.02.19 20:46:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Kerblar Erzma wrote:Thinly veiled "i dont want my ship to be destroyed while suicide ganking freightes" thread. It already is zero risk game, you want everything to be handed to you on a plate?
I have never suicide ganked anyone, and never will. I still support the motion.
It's actually a thread about how scarcity of supply makes a market.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 07:26:00 -
[1207] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:The kind of issues I see with these changes is that the game has been running 10 years. All the "tricks" that can be extracted from the mechanics have been already found, and are been milked non stop.
If you did this, it would have zero effect on the large established organizations, that are already making a ton of money in null, and usually just come to hisec to suicide gank blingy ships and overloaded freighters. With this move, they will start making even more isk, and now with no ships lost to CONCORD.
I only see Red/Black Frog gaining a ton more freighter and escort pilots and making a killing in the new economy, doing all the heavy lifting for everyone.
It's not that I mind the general idea, but unless CCP brings out an expansion called Scorched Universe, I don't see it happening. First of all, the points you are making are based on the way traffic moves in empire right now. Sure if they put lowsec between the empires and traffic moves like it does today with all high sec in between empires, then yeah i could see this catastrophe you guys are imagining. But that's not what would happen. Traffic would change. Each empire would have it's own local traffic of moving things from the edge of the empire to the trade hub and back. But this won't dump a ton of targets into the lap of everyone in null and low sec. This will only change the dynamic between low and high sec. Suicide ganking may or may not change it will definitely not get any worse because of this change. If you fly a freighter into lowsec, whether it's now or it's in a future with this change then you're putting it at significant risk.
This change doesn't make high sec less safe. This change doesn't make low sec more dangerous. This change doesn't force anyone to go into lowsec or engage in any non-consensual pvp. All this change does is create a boarder between the empires. A neutral zone where the systems are contested. This could be the future site of FW and this could create a great area to have Roleplay events.
Red/Black Frog seem to already be working at their maximum capacity. I don't know if they'd be able to support the entirety of EVE. And on another point, Logistics is very effort heavy. I'm not sure if you've done any living outside of high sec but getting stuff you need there and stuff you need to sell out is not as easy as auto-piloting to (insert local trade hub here). Doing logistics can be extremely profitable in those hard to reach areas. However such profitability doesn't exist in high sec because of the lack of effort required to auto pilot a freighter. By separating the empires with low sec, we will add back that effort to hauling and once again make it profitable.
Another point about the JF logistics is that they require Fuel. And the more JF's there are hauling things between empires the more fuel they're going to use. And the more Fuel they use, the more demand there will be on fuel. And when you have a high demand and a limited resource you end up with an increase in price. And as that price increases the cost to jump stuff will increase and the amount of isk you have to make to profit from JF hauling increases too. This will happen until an equilibrium is found between the cost and profit of JF hauling and this will leave a window of unforeseeable profitability for hauling gate to gate. Adding PoSs and such to the overhead will affect this too. (Remember Jump and PoS fuel are not free!!!)
Now about those escort pilots making some money. How about that, creating an entire new profession in EVE. This would be one of the greatest results that could come of a change like this. This is one of, if not the reason for this thread. To create a new dynamic where something like that is possible. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
104
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Posted - 2014.02.20 07:30:00 -
[1208] - Quote
double post~~ |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 08:07:00 -
[1209] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: OK 'Thoughts and feelings' aside lets go with facts. Sunai's previous post sums it up. Those with no wish to leave hi-sec never will and no amount of space between hisec will make them do so, if anything no or only a very long hi-sec route would just push them from the game lowering the player base.
Since facts is a theme. People don't unsub because of (insert mechanic change here). They unsub because mechanics DON'T change.
The argument that players will unsub because of some game change is invalid. http://jestertrek.com/eve/blog/2013/eve-players-exp-2013-2.png As you can see here, after every major content expansion there is a rise in player subscription activity. However after a while that will start to decrease again until the next major content expansion. So, as you can see, when things change player subs increase. When changes are not made (especially after a major content-void expansion) then player subs decrease. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
206
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 08:57:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: OK 'Thoughts and feelings' aside lets go with facts. Sunai's previous post sums it up. Those with no wish to leave hi-sec never will and no amount of space between hisec will make them do so, if anything no or only a very long hi-sec route would just push them from the game lowering the player base.
Since facts is a theme. People don't unsub because of (insert mechanic change here). They unsub because mechanics DON'T change. The argument that players will unsub because of some game change is invalid. http://jestertrek.com/eve/blog/2013/eve-players-exp-2013-2.pngAs you can see here, after every major content expansion there is a rise in player subscription activity. However after a while that will start to decrease again until the next major content expansion. So, as you can see, when things change player subs increase. When changes are not made (especially after a major content-void expansion) then player subs decrease.
My point is that this idea would force a change on a large section of the player base that they absolutely would not want for seemingly no reason. If those players wanted to go into lowsec they already would be. There is no change you could make that would make the hisec types who only want to live in hisec even consider jumping to low in a freighter. Making the trips much longer for them to navigate hisec would heavily impact their profits and pretty much directly transfer it to those low sec groups who are prepared to run freighters through. I'm pretty sure this would alienate those hisec folks that just got mugged.
My main point is that you need to give people more reasons to go into lowsec *by choice*. Eve should always be about choice, and this suggestion removes one of those choices to all practical purposes (In my opinion of course). Hence my trying to make constructive suggestions as to how people could be attracted into low for the benefit of all.
I still don't buy into the idea that the hisec players 'should get out more' either. It is their choice to play in hisec and engage in business PvP. They enjoy that, they are pretty brutal at it, and they will not change what they do to give losec folks more targets. If the changes proposed stopped them from playing Eve the way they like to then there has to be a real risk that they would simply stop caring and therefore stop playing.
I acknowledge that the OP states a very long route around hisec would be available but that simply cripples starter players wishing to explore without running through losec initially and would make the start SoE Epic Arc mindnumbingly dull purely through the travel Obviously a huge increase in travel time would just decimate profit margins on many business activities too.
I still haven't seen anything that would persuade me this is a good idea but certainly hope the discussion gets people to think of other ways to encourage those interested to make the jump into losec now and again.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
50
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Posted - 2014.02.20 15:00:00 -
[1211] - Quote
I'll start with this incredible load of bullcrap.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:First of all, the points you are making are based on the way traffic moves in empire right now. Sure if they put lowsec between the empires and traffic moves like it does today with all high sec in between empires, then yeah i could see this catastrophe you guys are imagining. But that's not what would happen. Traffic would change. Each empire would have it's own local traffic of moving things from the edge of the empire to the trade hub and back. But this won't dump a ton of targets into the lap of everyone in null and low sec. This will only change the dynamic between low and high sec. Suicide ganking may or may not change it will definitely not get any worse because of this change. If you fly a freighter into lowsec, whether it's now or it's in a future with this change then you're putting it at significant risk. Flying a freighter in lowsec is no risk. Certain death is called certain because it leaves nothing to chance, and there is no room for risky gambles, because nothing is a gamble. It's suicide, it always were, and it always would be.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:This change doesn't make high sec less safe. This change doesn't make low sec more dangerous. This change doesn't force anyone to go into lowsec or engage in any non-consensual pvp. All this change does is create a boarder between the empires. A neutral zone where the systems are contested. This could be the future site of FW and this could create a great area to have Roleplay events. This change doesn't make hisec less unsafe, it just destroys it completely and replaces it with 4 little unsafe hisecs. The lowsec is not a risk because it can be avoided. If it cannot be avoided, it's certain death. It lowers the risk and destroy the reward, along with hisec. "We don't force you to go to lowsec, just stay in your little pocket and lose 90% of your profits, NOBODY IS FORCING YOU!" (c) You. "Let's do the future FW! We can start by obliterating hisec." (c) You.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Red/Black Frog seem to already be working at their maximum capacity. I don't know if they'd be able to support the entirety of EVE. And on another point, Logistics is very effort heavy. I'm not sure if you've done any living outside of high sec but getting stuff you need there and stuff you need to sell out is not as easy as auto-piloting to (insert local trade hub here). Doing logistics can be extremely profitable in those hard to reach areas. However such profitability doesn't exist in high sec because of the lack of effort required to auto pilot a freighter. By separating the empires with low sec, we will add back that effort to hauling and once again make it profitable. Cyno to station, pick up stuff, jump bridge, jump bridge, cyno to blue-camped lowsec near designated trade hub, done. Time: 7 minutes. EFFORT. You have to spend twice more time pushing 7 gates in empire to the hub. And you can be actually ganked there, a possibility unimaginable for low/null jump drive LOLogistics. And nope, profitability is just about as much as doing anything else, because if it were profitable, anyone would be doing it, considering how ridiculously little effort and risk it is.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Another point about the JF logistics is that they require Fuel. And the more JF's there are hauling things between empires the more fuel they're going to use. And the more Fuel they use, the more demand there will be on fuel. And when you have a high demand and a limited resource you end up with an increase in price. And as that price increases the cost to jump stuff will increase and the amount of isk you have to make to profit from JF hauling increases too. This will happen until an equilibrium is found between the cost and profit of JF hauling and this will leave a window of unforeseeable profitability for hauling gate to gate. Adding PoSs and such to the overhead will affect this too. (Remember Jump and PoS fuel are not free!!!) Done some calculations, and found that current Red Frog costs more than jump fuel over the same distances, but that doesn't matter. What does matter, however, is that power blocks will monopolize cross-empire bridges from nearest null entries quicker than goons taking back their words about non-aggression once moon rebalance hit Tranquility.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Now about those escort pilots making some money. How about that, creating an entire new profession in EVE. This would be one of the greatest results that could come of a change like this. This is one of, if not the reason for this thread. To create a new dynamic where something like that is possible. Blobbers will easily break any escort. Mercs can only harass nullsec blobbers from hisec, entering low is as suicidal for them as it is for a freighter.
So, in short: 1) blue donut, major buff - a new market easily exploitable with blobs. 2) haulers, traders - unsubbing or paying for cyno rights to blobbers and hauling for marginal profit, if any. 3) industrials - forced to join blue donut and work for free, or just work for free. I think they choose unsub. 4) mercs - screwed with hisec destruction. 5) hisec - destroyed.
Good job. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
105
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Posted - 2014.02.20 16:37:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Stupid stuff
Obviously you don't recall the era before the great gate redirect as well as new regions (hello dronelands, W-space and black rise).
At one point there were at least half the number of 0.0 entrances that there are now and you could go from amarr to rens through high sec in something like 6 jumps. Low Sec itself was more pockets than contiguous areas like it is now. I think the gate redirect was in 2005 and also added were new 00 entrances to allow for easier access by small gang forces seeking to infiltrate.
The state of the game in terms of high-sec/low-sec transportation routes is in actuality fairly in balance with now trying to go from Rens > Jita taking far longer than it used to and incentivising at least the small cargo runners to take a chance at running through rancer or through amamake to get to amarr.
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
What is actually a good idea is to incentivize the use of low sec...or you can be a smart cookie and probe for direct High->High wormholes or even take a chance at going through a C5 WH chain to another high sec if you find it.
There are many options available to the intelligent pilot. |
Amanda Rosewater
Wolfger's Retreat
1
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Posted - 2014.02.20 17:41:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
This doesn't force anyone to do anything. If you don't want to go into low sec, then you don't go to another empire's space. You aren't FORCED to go there.
If you are going to knock this idea because it forces people to go into low sec, then you should also be getting rid of high sec missions that force you to low sec to complete. Or high sec pockets you can't get to without going through low sec. Or hell, keep going. I want to go to ORE controlled space, but don't want to be forced into 0.0. I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to do lvl 5's, so put them in high sec. I don't want to be forced into 0.0 to mine high value ores, so put them in high sec. I want to see the eve gate, but I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to see it. Etc. etc. etc.
Nothing in this idea FORCES a player to do anything. The player always has a choice, and they can simply choose to stay within the confines of a single empire if they choose to never enter low sec. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1108
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 20:07:00 -
[1214] - Quote
what is with all the locked topics. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
58
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Posted - 2014.02.20 20:51:00 -
[1215] - Quote
How would the neutral zone between each empire be built? Would there be a security loss involved if you engage a player from another race?
How about if you engage a player from your own race? Shouldn't such an engagement lead to a severe security loss where you would have to remain in the neutral zone for a certain amount of time until the security loss was revoked and your security status returned to status that it was before you engaged the opposite race player or a permanent security loss for engaging a player from your own race?
Neutral Zone would be rather different from low sector and null space because you wouldn't even be allowed to go into low or null let alone high sector space if you have been tagged as having a neutral zone violation. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
106
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Posted - 2014.02.21 10:04:00 -
[1216] - Quote
Amanda Rosewater wrote:Justin Cody wrote:
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
This doesn't force anyone to do anything. If you don't want to go into low sec, then you don't go to another empire's space. You aren't FORCED to go there. If you are going to knock this idea because it forces people to go into low sec, then you should also be getting rid of high sec missions that force you to low sec to complete. Or high sec pockets you can't get to without going through low sec. Or hell, keep going. I want to go to ORE controlled space, but don't want to be forced into 0.0. I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to do lvl 5's, so put them in high sec. I don't want to be forced into 0.0 to mine high value ores, so put them in high sec. I want to see the eve gate, but I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to see it. Etc. etc. etc. Nothing in this idea FORCES a player to do anything. The player always has a choice, and they can simply choose to stay within the confines of a single empire if they choose to never enter low sec. Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Commander Ted wrote:what is with all the locked topics. what?
DrysonBennington wrote:I have never been to low sec. also what? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
210
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Posted - 2014.02.21 11:02:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Amanda Rosewater wrote:Justin Cody wrote:
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
This doesn't force anyone to do anything. If you don't want to go into low sec, then you don't go to another empire's space. You aren't FORCED to go there. If you are going to knock this idea because it forces people to go into low sec, then you should also be getting rid of high sec missions that force you to low sec to complete. Or high sec pockets you can't get to without going through low sec. Or hell, keep going. I want to go to ORE controlled space, but don't want to be forced into 0.0. I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to do lvl 5's, so put them in high sec. I don't want to be forced into 0.0 to mine high value ores, so put them in high sec. I want to see the eve gate, but I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to see it. Etc. etc. etc. Nothing in this idea FORCES a player to do anything. The player always has a choice, and they can simply choose to stay within the confines of a single empire if they choose to never enter low sec.
It doesn't force players to do anything but it does arbitrarily take away large chunks of profit from those in hi-sec who's business relies on stability and hand it straight to the larger lo-sec groups who would monopolize and control the trade routes. The idea that there is still a long route around hisec would still destroy profit margins. It is *effectively* forcing players to use losec routes to maintain profitability whilst providing the losec folks with more big juicy targets for free.
Saying a business player can choose between very real risk of massive loss from freighter destruction or guaranteed huge loss from tripling the hauling route is really no choice at all. To get more players to go to losec means giving them reason to go and the means to do so in a way that they believe they can have a fair chance with. I know that it isn't as scary getting into losec as many believe but that is the problem. Large numbers of players probably avoid going into losec due to the perception that you get bounced at the first gate (which can of course happen)
That is the reasoning behind my suggestion for a new set of missions that cyno the player into the mission site in deep space. It would get people past the initial fear of jumping into low and still leave them having to navigate their own way out safely. Once players get used to operating in lo and losing ships more often they will begin to go back to losec by choice. In fact when they crave a combat fix hisec simply wouldn't cut it anymore most likely.
The key is getting players past the initial block to jumping in and effectively forcing them to do so by separating hisec into enclaves. Marginalizing new players and eisting indy players would do nothing to help the game overall.
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Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
106
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Posted - 2014.02.22 06:42:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: It doesn't force players to do anything but it does arbitrarily take away large chunks of profit from those in hi-sec who's business relies on stability
Please give an example of this. |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
63
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 08:26:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Amanda Rosewater wrote:Justin Cody wrote:
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
This doesn't force anyone to do anything. If you don't want to go into low sec, then you don't go to another empire's space. You aren't FORCED to go there. If you are going to knock this idea because it forces people to go into low sec, then you should also be getting rid of high sec missions that force you to low sec to complete. Or high sec pockets you can't get to without going through low sec. Or hell, keep going. I want to go to ORE controlled space, but don't want to be forced into 0.0. I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to do lvl 5's, so put them in high sec. I don't want to be forced into 0.0 to mine high value ores, so put them in high sec. I want to see the eve gate, but I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to see it. Etc. etc. etc. Nothing in this idea FORCES a player to do anything. The player always has a choice, and they can simply choose to stay within the confines of a single empire if they choose to never enter low sec. Yes it does. They would no longer be able to fly from point A to point B as they do now without entering lowsec; A and B being in different empires.
That's what forced means. They would have to either do the activity at much greater risk, with no demostrable increase in reward,, or cease that activity. Claiming they aren't bein "forced" is semantic pedantry of the worst sort trying to catch someone in a technical linguistic error to divert attention from the real issue. That issue is that this is just a thinly veiled "I want it to be easier to blow stuff up" with no indication at all of how reward would increase for this much larger risk. Freighters and to a lesser extent T1 haulers would he of suddenly far less use.
People throw terms around like "emergent gameplay", but as usual for the playerbase that just means "bbuff my playstyle and sccrew someone else because loaded language annd ad hom fallacy." These arguments,, usually heavily referencing the ursine, ignore that much of this highsec activity is alts funding the activity of low/null.
For this idea to be viable it would need to be of clear benefit to the highsec character affected,, in proportion to risk. It isnt, and probably cannot be made so, and is thus DOA. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2207
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Posted - 2014.02.22 08:33:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Amanda Rosewater wrote:Justin Cody wrote:
To however FORCE people through low sec is a poor idea.
This doesn't force anyone to do anything. If you don't want to go into low sec, then you don't go to another empire's space. You aren't FORCED to go there. If you are going to knock this idea because it forces people to go into low sec, then you should also be getting rid of high sec missions that force you to low sec to complete. Or high sec pockets you can't get to without going through low sec. Or hell, keep going. I want to go to ORE controlled space, but don't want to be forced into 0.0. I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to do lvl 5's, so put them in high sec. I don't want to be forced into 0.0 to mine high value ores, so put them in high sec. I want to see the eve gate, but I don't want to be forced to go to low sec to see it. Etc. etc. etc. Nothing in this idea FORCES a player to do anything. The player always has a choice, and they can simply choose to stay within the confines of a single empire if they choose to never enter low sec. Yes it does. They would no longer be able to fly from point A to point B as they do now without entering lowsec; A and B being in different empires. That's what forced means. They would have to either do the activity at much greater risk, with no demostrable increase in reward,, or cease that activity. Claiming they aren't bein "forced" is semantic pedantry of the worst sort trying to catch someone in a technical linguistic error to divert attention from the real issue. That issue is that this is just a thinly veiled "I want it to be easier to blow stuff up" with no indication at all of how reward would increase for this much larger risk. Freighters and to a lesser extent T1 haulers would he of suddenly far less use. People throw terms around like "emergent gameplay", but as usual for the playerbase that just means "bbuff my playstyle and sccrew someone else because loaded language annd ad hom fallacy." These arguments,, usually heavily referencing the ursine, ignore that much of this highsec activity is alts funding the activity of low/null. For this idea to be viable it would need to be of clear benefit to the highsec character affected,, in proportion to risk. It isnt, and probably cannot be made so, and is thus DOA. What forces you to travel between empires? Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
211
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:15:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: It doesn't force players to do anything but it does arbitrarily take away large chunks of profit from those in hi-sec who's business relies on stability
Please give an example of this.
Currently for trader characters they make much of their profits by hauling goods bought cheaply where one empire has an excess to another empire where there is a dearth. They often use isk per jump as a measure of profitability and tripling the jumps basically cuts the profitability to a third since time is money. The argument here is that they can keep making that profit by going through losec to get there but suddenly requiring the very real risk of doing so to keep making the same profit? Traders simply won't bother and the market will destabilize.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
211
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Posted - 2014.02.22 11:18:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: What forces you to travel between empires?
That's most often what generates the profits. Many traders buy in dixie and sell in jita because that makes them profit. Suddenly you throw in having to traverse losec (to get there in any realistic time) and the risk to profit goes through the roof.Sure a player can choose not to go through losec and make that profit but you just arbitrarily removed their game from eve.
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Oblivion King
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.02.22 12:33:00 -
[1223] - Quote
A good idea would be the FW system in low in the route between empires, CCP should change them to 0.4-0.5 and introduce something new for players, CITIZENSHIP, what this does is each player/civilian can choose who his citizenship belongs to (can be without fighting in factionwarfare) and it provides safe haven in those systems, meaning there is a small presence of NPC militia/faction ships to "guard" that system, they are unlike Concord though and only attack enemies of the milita on sight, they can be tanked and destroyed though,
Only citizens and FW fighters ( associated with the conquering faction) can benefit from the protection of NPC militia, neutrals/reds (non fw/citizens) do not get shot on sight but also do not benefit from help from the NPC militia.
And Only citizens and FW participants (to the conquering faction) are allowed to dock in the system, furthermore any neutral entering the system can be shot freely by players (turns suspect) because it is a militia ground. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
548
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 13:07:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Only in uncatchable frigs, inties and covert ops ships. Which would be completely pointless. You would end up with 95% of people hanging around Jita and the rest a complete wasteland.
Solitude is only reachable through Syndicate or a long roundabout path through Aridia and is heavily populated. It has a small local tradehub. It basically acts as a proof of concept for this idea, and show that local trade hubs would strengthen. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
211
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Posted - 2014.02.22 15:28:00 -
[1225] - Quote
I don't think they would strengthen if the routes between the major hubs were effectively cut. You would end up with many more local people chasing the same diminishing profits and the main profitable trade routes being monopolized.
There must be better ways to get people to fly to losec by choice rather than by forcing them. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1403
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:54:00 -
[1226] - Quote
I like this idea. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Vartan Sarkisian
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
138
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 12:49:00 -
[1227] - Quote
+1
I like this idea. I think I put something similar not eh forums a long time ago, currently there is no real difference where you are, if you are in galente space you have caldari and Amarr stations/npc corps etc which seems nuts, maybe a couple of stations in a diplomatic type function but nothing more.
I am sure that there would be a massive amount of work involved but as the basis of an idea I would like to see this or something like it. It would certainly make things more interesting. And will probably get rid of the bottle neck that is Jita with each faction having their own busy hub,
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die. |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
46
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Posted - 2014.02.25 13:30:00 -
[1228] - Quote
+1.
DO IT |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
217
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 13:41:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Vartan Sarkisian wrote:+1
I like this idea. I think I put something similar not eh forums a long time ago, currently there is no real difference where you are, if you are in galente space you have caldari and Amarr stations/npc corps etc which seems nuts, maybe a couple of stations in a diplomatic type function but nothing more.
I am sure that there would be a massive amount of work involved but as the basis of an idea I would like to see this or something like it. It would certainly make things more interesting. And will probably get rid of the bottle neck that is Jita with each faction having their own busy hub,
It would make a big difference to traders since they buy cheap at one hub and sell for profit at another, this would at bets severly cut the profit margins for such players for nothing in return. If you want lo/null sec regions around hi sec I prefer the ideas in the DEEEEEEP space thread, where anything outside a defined CONCORD patrol range becomes null.
In all honesty this idea would improve my profits for the goods I produce, but I can't support something that would cripple others for no good reason. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
675
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Posted - 2014.02.25 15:30:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Vartan Sarkisian wrote:+1
I like this idea. I think I put something similar not eh forums a long time ago, currently there is no real difference where you are, if you are in galente space you have caldari and Amarr stations/npc corps etc which seems nuts, maybe a couple of stations in a diplomatic type function but nothing more.
I am sure that there would be a massive amount of work involved but as the basis of an idea I would like to see this or something like it. It would certainly make things more interesting. And will probably get rid of the bottle neck that is Jita with each faction having their own busy hub,
It would make a big difference to traders since they buy cheap at one hub and sell for profit at another, this would at bets severly cut the profit margins for such players for nothing in return. If you want lo/null sec regions around hi sec I prefer the ideas in the DEEEEEEP space thread, where anything outside a defined CONCORD patrol range becomes null. In all honesty this idea would improve my profits for the goods I produce, but I can't support something that would cripple others for no good reason.
With fewer people making the lowsec runs, wouldn't that increase your profits for doing them? Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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