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Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1984
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 19:57:00 -
[3841] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The issue of local and AFK cloaking are tied together. I disagree. And therein lies your problem. You talk about everything like this is a given, like it's pure fact. But it's not. This in iteslf is part of the discussion.
Teckos Pech wrote:Now, if you want to continue with the non-local solutions, fine. But there is nothing to say I or anyone can't respond with why we think it is a bad idea. But 9 times out of 10 you don't. You simply ignore the entire concept of the idea and just restate what you think about local being the cause. I've met people like you at work. They are the most difficult people to work with since they refuse to think about things from various standpoints. They get a single fixed idea and they repeately try to tie everything back to that.
Teckos Pech wrote:For example, one commonly proposed solution would be to let cloaked ships be scannable. But this is not a solution to just AFK cloaking, it is a nerf to any and all use of the cloaking device. Unless it can be configured so it doesn't have any effect on non-AFK cloak uses it is a bad idea (yes, in my opinioni). Writing that is not trolling. It is pointing out a short coming with that idea. Yeah but there is literally no change possible that ONLY affects AFK cloakers is there? You say "oh no you can; change cloaks, as that nerfs cloakers" and you say "you can;t put in an AFK timer as then it affects AFK miners", yet you say "lets replace local" as if that won't have any affect on anyone outside AFK cloakers.
So explain to me this: If everyone else's ideas are bad because they affect other people, why is your idea to replace local not a bad idea to be placed in a thread dedicated to AFK cloaking?
Essentially what you are doing is automatically dismissing every idea as "affects groups x, y and z", then stating your idea, which also affects a lot of groups, yet is somehow exempt from the same rules. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2240
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 20:14:00 -
[3842] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: I disagree. And therein lies your problem. You talk about everything like this is a given, like it's pure fact. But it's not. This in iteslf is part of the discussion.
I find this absolutely fascinating. On one hand you admit removing local would solve the AFK cloaking probelm--e.g. AFK cloaking and local are inter-related. The on the other you insist they are not. I find it fascinating you hold two largely inconsistent views at the same time. Can you explain this to me?
Lucas Kell wrote:But 9 times out of 10 you don't. You simply ignore the entire concept of the idea and just restate what you think about local being the cause. I've met people like you at work. They are the most difficult people to work with since they refuse to think about things from various standpoints. They get a single fixed idea and they repeately try to tie everything back to that.
I don't think this is true. I have argued extensively against the AFK flag/timer/logoff/warp suggestion and I'm pretty sure I did not simply say, "No, it is bad because it does not address local." In fact, I've argued it is bad because it also targets people who are not AFK cloaking.
Then you claim no big deal since it is not good having AFK people in game (I disagree since alot of in game resources move around that way)...which is also curious since you yell at me and insult me for not knowing the title of this thread...which you appear to ignore or not know when you make such arguments.
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah but there is literally no change possible that ONLY affects AFK cloakers is there? You say "oh no you can; change cloaks, as that nerfs cloakers" and you say "you can;t put in an AFK timer as then it affects AFK miners", yet you say "lets replace local" as if that won't have any affect on anyone outside AFK cloakers.
YES! But I don't think you see the deeper implication here.
A simple change like scanner probes nerfs all use of cloaks. And it conveys a benefit to a subset of the player population. To use an analogy it is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Its great for Paul, but sucks for Peter.
I prefer changes to local because it effects everyone. Nobody is singled out for a nerf or a benefit (okay cloaking ships would get a benefit, but that is why they'd also get a nerf to all cloaks, for example vulnerable to scanner probes).
Lucas Kell wrote:So explain to me this: If everyone else's ideas are bad because they affect other people, why is your idea to replace local not a bad idea to be placed in a thread dedicated to AFK cloaking?
Essentially what you are doing is automatically dismissing every idea as "affects groups x, y and z", then stating your idea, which also affects a lot of groups, yet is somehow exempt from the same rules.
I am not automatically dismissing any ideas. If there is a flaw I point it out. I don't think the way to handle AFK cloaking is to nerf non-AFK cloakers. The problem with every suggestion I've seen is that they all nerf non-AFK cloakers.
You could argue the change local solution also nerfs non-AFK cloakers...and I agree! But it applies to everyone. The guy who is cloaked in a system...he can't use local either. If the solution to the intel problem is sov based, he can't even use that if he does not belong to the sov holding alliance. And it does not impact some schmoe autopiloting between Dodixie and Jita.
And are you really suggesting that if I don't see a flaw in a proposed idea I NOT point it out? If that is the case why even have a DISCUSSION forum?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
43
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 21:00:00 -
[3843] - Quote
Unfortunetly Lucas I firmly believe you will never be rid of AFK'ers in any form in this game, the only thing you can possibly do at this point is divert the eye from it, out of sight out of mind so to speak, replace local chat with regional chat as I suggested. Now no one knows who is where without being active and on the hunt. And if that cloaker drops a cyno on your head, well guess what, he wasn't AFK after all Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 21:01:00 -
[3844] - Quote
Interesting...
Even more interesting....
One suggestion to replace the intel local provides. (Note, I am offering no opinions on that one.)
Funny....and true....
Informative.... Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
338
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 21:08:00 -
[3845] - Quote
Local... That isn't where the problem is at - it is simply 1 way to spot a problem. Sorry but removal doesn't float as "the fix" - that's just a gankers wet dream which would back-fire very quickly as people stopped operating in that space.
It's not being a coward to avoid a bubble gate camp in your battleship and it's not being a coward to avoid space where they can spot your activity from across the entire universe with ease while you can't see hostiles coming after you.
If they cannot earn more than it costs, they will stop trying and "can't see" means they will lose more than they can earn meaning they will not be able to do those activities in that space.
1) You can't bring up the map and view usage statistics for the last x-amount of time on a wormhole. You can with k-space systems. (who's ratting in which systems? There's my target base)
2) You don't have belts nor ratters in wormholes. You do in k-space and all such belts are easily navigated to in k-space systems. (anyone can navigate to a belt. Finding an exploration site in w-space takes a bit more and can be seen via D-Scan when you try to probe them down)
3) You can't bring up a map and right-click to go to a wormhole. You need to find an entrance to it but K-space you can. (so it's *VERY* easy to find an active "target rich" system to go with little effort, vs trying to hunt in w-space)
These are all known (albeit it usually ignored) differences between the 2 types of space and removal of local *WILL NOT* bring about balancing nor correcting these issues - it will only drastically reduce to eliminate ratting activities in nullsec which is the primary source of the resident's income.
The cloak needs a bit to fix it but how to do so is a problem.
"fuel" - this is a common idea but it has problems.
This cripples cloak use for deep exploration of dangerous space. Not a good solution if someone wants to spend a few days or weeks logging in and out while going through w-space or the like and going deep into nullsec with a cloaked ship, to not have the fuel to get back out using a cloak... Not good.
Any kind of "fix" for this needs to leave the use of the ship intact while limiting it more to actual use purposes and not "Parked AFK" from server startup to downtime.
The best solution I've seen is via adding a cycle timer to the cloaking device (60s per cycle) and have it use 1% more cap than the ship can generate (so you can't stack it up with cap rechargers to get back the perma-cloaked ability).
So you could leave it AFK for up to a maximum of 1hr 40min before the cloak would drop (longer with skills) - less if the cap isn't at full when you start the cloak up.
Adjust the cloaking skill to give 10% longer duration per cycle, adjust the meta variations on the duration and you can add value them, etc. In other words with cloaking 5, you could last for 2.5 hours maximum.
It still has some issues but it would open up a lot of other potential areas of enhancement for cloaking - such things as potentially allowing some modules to be used while cloaked because they would have steep usage penalties (like using an MWD or AB while cloaked. No cap recharging means your cloak life is being burned up much faster).
Again, that is about the best one I've seen but all this chatter about just getting rid of local in k-space with no mention of replacement? ... Sure; a brilliant solution for removal of most other activities from that space.
You *MUST* be able to earn more than it costs or you won't find people trying to earn in such locations and highsec has a large enough population without that many additional immigrants from null who need to earn so they can afford to PvP. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 21:10:00 -
[3846] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Local... That isn't where the problem is at - it is simply 1 way to spot a problem. Sorry but removal doesn't float as "the fix" - that's just a gankers wet dream which would back-fire very quickly as people stopped operating in that space.
It's not being a coward to avoid a bubble gate camp in your battleship and it's not being a coward to avoid space where they can spot your activity from across the entire universe with ease while you can't see hostiles coming after you.
If they cannot earn more than it costs, they will stop trying and "can't see" means they will lose more than they can earn meaning they will not be able to do those activities in that space.
1) You can't bring up the map and view usage statistics for the last x-amount of time on a wormhole. You can with k-space systems. (who's ratting in which systems? There's my target base)
2) You don't have belts nor ratters in wormholes. You do in k-space and all such belts are easily navigated to in k-space systems. (anyone can navigate to a belt. Finding an exploration site in w-space takes a bit more and can be seen via D-Scan when you try to probe them down)
3) You can't bring up a map and right-click to go to a wormhole. You need to find an entrance to it but K-space you can. (so it's *VERY* easy to find an active "target rich" system to go with little effort, vs trying to hunt in w-space)
These are all known (albeit it usually ignored) differences between the 2 types of space and removal of local *WILL NOT* bring about balancing nor correcting these issues - it will only drastically reduce to eliminate ratting activities in nullsec which is the primary source of the resident's income.
The cloak needs a bit to fix it but how to do so is a problem.
"fuel" - this is a common idea but it has problems.
This cripples cloak use for deep exploration of dangerous space. Not a good solution if someone wants to spend a few days or weeks logging in and out while going through w-space or the like and going deep into nullsec with a cloaked ship, to not have the fuel to get back out using a cloak... Not good.
Any kind of "fix" for this needs to leave the use of the ship intact while limiting it more to actual use purposes and not "Parked AFK" from server startup to downtime.
The best solution I've seen is via adding a cycle timer to the cloaking device (60s per cycle) and have it use 1% more cap than the ship can generate (so you can't stack it up with cap rechargers to get back the perma-cloaked ability).
So you could leave it AFK for up to a maximum of 1hr 40min before the cloak would drop (longer with skills) - less if the cap isn't at full when you start the cloak up.
Adjust the cloaking skill to give 10% longer duration per cycle, adjust the meta variations on the duration and you can add value them, etc. In other words with cloaking 5, you could last for 2.5 hours maximum.
It still has some issues but it would open up a lot of other potential areas of enhancement for cloaking - such things as potentially allowing some modules to be used while cloaked because they would have steep usage penalties (like using an MWD or AB while cloaked. No cap recharging means your cloak life is being burned up much faster).
Again, that is about the best one I've seen but all this chatter about just getting rid of local in k-space with no mention of replacement? ... Sure; a brilliant solution for removal of most other activities from that space.
You *MUST* be able to earn more than it costs or you won't find people trying to earn in such locations and highsec has a large enough population without that many additional immigrants from null who need to earn so they can afford to PvP.
Nobody has suggested just removing local. And you are arguing against quite a few straw men there too. Nobody has suggested avoiding a gank is "cowardly".
I know the thread is long, but reading some posts might be a good idea.
Quote:The best solution I've seen is via adding a cycle timer to the cloaking device (60s per cycle) and have it use 1% more cap than the ship can generate (so you can't stack it up with cap rechargers to get back the perma-cloaked ability).
Already been discussed, bad idea. One it nerfs all cloaks...again. Right there this idea should be dropped. An active cloaker should NOT have his game nerfed.
And good God...the formatting of your posts..... Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1984
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 21:50:00 -
[3847] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I find this absolutely fascinating. On one hand you admit removing local would solve the AFK cloaking probelm--i.e. AFK cloaking and local are inter-related. Then on the other you insist they are not. I find it fascinating you hold two largely inconsistent views at the same time. Can you explain this to me? I've explained this easily 100 times now. Just because 2 things can affect each other does not mean that they have to go hand in hand. Just because removing local would cause AFK cloaking to be pointelss does NOT mean they must be dealt with together. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand. It's a really REALLY basic concept.
Teckos Pech wrote:YES! But I don't think you see the deeper implication here.
A simple change like scanner probes nerfs all use of cloaks. And it conveys a benefit to a subset of the player population. To use an analogy it is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Its great for Paul, but sucks for Peter.
I prefer changes to local because it effects everyone. Nobody is singled out for a nerf or a benefit (okay cloaking ships would get a benefit, but that is why they'd also get a nerf to all cloaks, for example vulnerable to scanner probes). Except changing local does not affect everyone negatively. Cloakers would benefit greatly from it. Why do you think so many cloakers want it to happen? With your idea you are still buffing a group and nerfing everyone else. Don't bother listing the reasons you've convinced yourself your idea is different, I'm really past the point of listening.
Teckos Pech wrote:I am not automatically dismissing any ideas. If there is a flaw I point it out. I don't think the way to handle AFK cloaking is to nerf non-AFK cloakers. The problem with every suggestion I've seen is that they all nerf non-AFK cloakers.
You could argue the change local solution also nerfs non-AFK cloakers...and I agree! But it applies to everyone. The guy who is cloaked in a system...he can't use local either. If the solution to the intel problem is sov based, he can't even use that if he does not belong to the sov holding alliance. And it does not impact some schmoe autopiloting between Dodixie and Jita.
And are you really suggesting that if I don't see a flaw in a proposed idea I NOT point it out? If that is the case why even have a DISCUSSION forum? No, you are dismissing any idea that doesn't start with local. Where you can find any hole in either the idea or even the language used to convey it, you will pick away at it. If you can;t, you'll simply ignore it and go off in a different direction. Yet you don't look at the obvious imbalances in your own idea. And you have no interest in it. Right from post 1, this whole thread was a giant troll thread design to take the **** out of any ideas that aren't yours.
But seriously guy, I'm done discussing this with you. In your mind you are right, I am wrong, and nothing I say will change that. No matter what I say you will have an issue with it before you've even read it, so it's completely pointless discussing it with you. I really can't be bothered to get dragged around in circle over and over again listening to you go on and on and on about local. As far as I am concerned local should NOT be changed to correct AFK cloaking, and ALL AFK play should be nerfed. When CCP post more info, I'll discuss it in their thread, not in your troll thread here. End of disucssion. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
339
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 22:42:00 -
[3848] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nobody has suggested just removing local. And you are arguing against quite a few straw men there too. Nobody has suggested avoiding a gank is "cowardly". I know the thread is long, but reading some posts might be a good idea. Quote:The best solution I've seen is via adding a cycle timer to the cloaking device (60s per cycle) and have it use 1% more cap than the ship can generate (so you can't stack it up with cap rechargers to get back the perma-cloaked ability). Already been discussed, bad idea. One it nerfs all cloaks...again. Right there this idea should be dropped. An active cloaker should NOT have his game nerfed. And good God...the formatting of your posts.....
"nobody has suggested just removing local" - man... That is just... uph! Seriously - read a bit; you really are in denial if you can't find where that is constantly harped on as *THE* solution even with CCP saying it's not a good idea.
I'm all for removal of how local works but only when other changes keep the detail available or you will destroy non-cloaked, non-PvP centric activities in other space. It will require a HUGE revamp of a lot of different areas of the game.
"Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
If at your keyboard, no issue at all. If not at your keyboard, it can be an issue.
"Warping cloaked..." turn it off while in warp, back on when exiting and you'll both enter and exit warp cloaked but regen cap while warping (already in game - you do regen cap while in warp. They just need to make the "on" and "off" start and stop instantly for the cloak - enabling and disabling systems depending on if it's on.)
Yes I read those posts - no I don't see their validity for the bulk of the arguments being as most would simply boil down to resource management issues and not preventing use/play styles - change them a bit is all. There would be more scramble type management involved for cloaking pilots - i.e. more actual hands-on skill needed.
PS: Yeah the formatting and length sucked but it was too much to cover in "twits on twitter" fashion and I just typed it out. Sorry but you did get the gist of it. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
680
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 23:06:00 -
[3849] - Quote
Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 23:13:00 -
[3850] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes. Ahh, so it's bad when that would ruin wormholes, but not bad at all when Teckos / Nikk's ideas ruins the whole game?
HAHA, says enough really. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
|
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
339
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 23:34:00 -
[3851] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes.
How?
Honestly I don't see how. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
680
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:06:00 -
[3852] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Astroniomix wrote:Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes. How? Honestly I don't see how. Being able to remain cloaked for extended periods of time is vital, I realize they don't teach this stuff in E-uni, but it's not at all uncommon to have to spend hours (or sometimes days) in hostile systems. This is especially true if you have a highsec connection that leads through a system that someone has been seen prowling around in, you want to keep eyes on the system to see when he goes away, but you don't want to show up on d-scan so as to not get his attention (and possibly keep him around longer).
I also would like to hear how you think that decloaking while in warp is somehow not a terrible idea. (seriously do they teach you guys ANYTHING in there?) |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:15:00 -
[3853] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Nobody has suggested just removing local. And you are arguing against quite a few straw men there too. Nobody has suggested avoiding a gank is "cowardly". I know the thread is long, but reading some posts might be a good idea. Quote:The best solution I've seen is via adding a cycle timer to the cloaking device (60s per cycle) and have it use 1% more cap than the ship can generate (so you can't stack it up with cap rechargers to get back the perma-cloaked ability). Already been discussed, bad idea. One it nerfs all cloaks...again. Right there this idea should be dropped. An active cloaker should NOT have his game nerfed. And good God...the formatting of your posts..... "nobody has suggested just removing local" - man... That is just... uph! Seriously - read a bit; you really are in denial if you can't find where that is constantly harped on as *THE* solution even with CCP saying it's not a good idea.
Dude you look really foolish coming in this late into a thread, not reading anything and making these kinds of statements. CCP will not simply remove local, they have said so. I do not advocate for it, Nikk does not. Neither does Mag's. Virtually everyone who thinks local is the root problem with AFK cloaking does not want to simply remove local.
But that does not meant one cannot change local so it is no longer an intel tool. CCP would like to do this.
Really, read back over some of the posts. Not all of them that would be silly. About as silly as coming in here and spouting off after having read none of them. The conversation here has moved beyond simply, "Remove local." Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:17:00 -
[3854] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes.
And it is not even close to even an acceptable solution.
That you like it does not make it best. As I said, it nerfs all cloaks. Have you thought of your suggested change and its impact on fleet combat? Scouting? Exploration? No? Then do so and come back. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:18:00 -
[3855] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Astroniomix wrote:Mocam wrote: "Already been discussed..." but that *IS* the best solution so far and has the least impact on the actual use of cloaked ships. It doesn't let you "find them cloaked" nor other such bad ideas that would gut use.
This change would ruin wormholes. Ahh, so it's bad when that would ruin wormholes, but not bad at all when Teckos / Nikk's ideas ruins the whole game? HAHA, says enough really.
Too bad for you CCP has now come out in favor of wanting to decouple Local and intel.
Do try to keep up.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:22:00 -
[3856] - Quote
Reposting this for the late comers....
Here is the interview.
Here is a direct quote, again since you apparently didn't read the first one.
Quote:Will there ever be a way to avoid showing up in local?
Potentially. It's not something that is going to be an easy solution, but I can say that we don't like the fact that local chat is so powerful as an intelligence tool as well as a chat but replacing it is something that's going to be a pretty large project because it is such a valuable way of gaining intelligence right now. We don't want to take it away without providing some other way to find out with some other act of gameplay who is in the system with you -- or at least some of the people that are in the system with you. So, we don't think it'd be a good thing to just tear it out and not put anything back in to replace it but we also aren't fully happy with the way it is right now. It is something that we would definitely like to change.--CCP Fozzie
Yes, that is CCP saying:
Local: Too powerful an intel tool. Local: We'd like to change it. Local: We will change it if we can find a suitable mechanism to replace the intel aspect of it.
Now, go up several posts and read the links under:
Interesting....
Even more interesting....
They are by Malcanis...from the CSM. I'm wondering if in a few weeks CCP will reveal more about possible changes to local.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:25:00 -
[3857] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I find this absolutely fascinating. On one hand you admit removing local would solve the AFK cloaking probelm--i.e. AFK cloaking and local are inter-related. Then on the other you insist they are not. I find it fascinating you hold two largely inconsistent views at the same time. Can you explain this to me? I've explained this easily 100 times now. Just because 2 things can affect each other does not mean that they have to go hand in hand. Just because removing local would cause AFK cloaking to be pointelss does NOT mean they must be dealt with together. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand. It's a really REALLY basic concept.
That explains nothing. I was wondering how you can write one minute, "Okay, yeah removing local would solve the AFK cloaking problem, but it would be bad...." Then in the next minute write, "AFK cloaking has nothing to do with local!"
It is like saying, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people.....But Guns really do kill people."
It is...well...contradicting yourself. How can you do that? Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2242
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 00:28:00 -
[3858] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:YES! But I don't think you see the deeper implication here.
A simple change like scanner probes nerfs all use of cloaks. And it conveys a benefit to a subset of the player population. To use an analogy it is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Its great for Paul, but sucks for Peter.
I prefer changes to local because it effects everyone. Nobody is singled out for a nerf or a benefit (okay cloaking ships would get a benefit, but that is why they'd also get a nerf to all cloaks, for example vulnerable to scanner probes). Except changing local does not affect everyone negatively. Cloakers would benefit greatly from it. Why do you think so many cloakers want it to happen? With your idea you are still buffing a group and nerfing everyone else. Don't bother listing the reasons you've convinced yourself your idea is different, I'm really past the point of listening.
And apparently you are past the point of reading too. Because I specifically noted that indeed cloaks would get a buff and would thus need a nerf.
Well done Lucas. This is how this reads:
Teckos: We'll change local, decouple it from intel and nerf cloaks. Lucas: OMG YOU'D MAKE CLOAKS OP AND DESTROY THE GAME!!!! Teckos: I did say we'd have to nerf cloaks...?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Andy Landen
Sub--Zero Catastrophic Uprising
414
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Posted - 2013.12.09 00:49:00 -
[3859] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: Maybe you can't prove it, but I think you have a good idea who did the AWOX bookmark on you, or you wish you had paid attention to who the blue guy was.
My sympathies... it sounded like you did everything right except counter AWOX tactics, and I don't know how to plan ahead for something that unpredictable.
Carriers are retardedly easy to scan down. It's entirely possible the guy scanned down your ship Vas Eldryn wrote:
Umm ok... you speak for CCP now... that's not a wise stance... you have been torn a new one before for presuming to speak for CCP
Really? Everything he said can be found in a direct quote from CCP Rise. And I'd love to see what you think this "getting torn a new one" is. I know who the AWOXer was, I just have no km proof of it.
Carriers are easy to scan down, but the guy landed right next to me about the time it would take to immediately warp to me from a gate over 70 AU away. This was back when probes launched one by one and frigates warped large distances slowly because the warp acceleration and deceleration took up much of the distance/time in warp. I hit warp the instant I saw him in system, which left him with about 30s to get the probes launched, find the general area, move the probes in for the lock, and then warp to the result. No, probing was entirely out of the question for the time he had available.
Astroniomix wrote: The proof I have of it is that people did it before cynos were a thing. Nullbears are even more risk averse than people in highsec, and cloaked ships are the only thing that present anything remotely close to a credible threat to 90% of them.
This whole thing just screams of you being upset over losing (what are we up to like..... 3 of them by now?) carriers to hotdrops.
I am upset by that loss, but now I am wondering how you were able to turn 1 AWOX loss into 3. Show me how you duplicated the carrier losses that so I can learn how to duplicate the carriers themselves.
As for the proof, show us the evidence "that people did it before cynos were a thing." I'd like to see how you came to believe that. And by "did it" I assume that we are talking about people complaining about Buzzards AFK camping. Even if it was so back in the beginning of Eve, I would not be surprised given the lack of population and thus lack of intel networks out in null sec. When null was largely empty, it was much easier for people to roam without getting reported. Even still, a handful of players should be able to dispatch a Buzzard within seconds, so I am interested in seeing what their issue was. Link your source on that so that we can examine it closer.
Teckos Pech wrote: Yes, sounds like the AWOXer had a bit of good dumb luck, landing so close to you.
Still, if you were doing that testing at that time on the test server you'd have not been ganked. For any and all testing use the test server as much as possible, IMO. It reduces your exposure to hostile action...which reduces your chances of loss. That is about the only thing that could have been done, "better".
The AWOXer probably just took his time slow boating while cloaked over to my carrier while the system was free of reds. Or he could have warped in and out cloak a couple of times using strategic bookmarks. The point is that anyone stationary can have an AWOXer slow boat while cloaked to near their position for acquisition of the AWOX bookmark. No stationary ship is safe against the AWOXer because you never have to see them except in local, especially with supercaps and cynos. Even moving ships can have a cloaked AWOXer keeping at 30 km in line with a celestial or gate and leading a little for the warp-in time. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:11:00 -
[3860] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Too bad for you CCP has now come out in favor of wanting to decouple Local and intel. Do try to keep up. Did i say anywhere in that statement that i'm against removing local if another system takes over it that doesn't makes EVE more of a hassle to play?
No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE.
Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
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Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
680
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:20:00 -
[3861] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:
No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE.
Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way.
You clearly do not want a discussion as you and lucas have both convinced yourselves that we just want to break the game. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
415
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:29:00 -
[3862] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:NightmareX wrote:
No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE.
Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way.
You clearly do not want a discussion as you and lucas have both convinced yourselves that we just want to break the game. The fact that we have given you tons of arguments on why it would destroy EVE is telling enough that it WILL.
You, Teckos and Nikk are so horny after getting the free pass to kill npc'ers easier with your ideas that you flat out aren't capable of seeing your own flaws. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Vas Eldryn
59
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Posted - 2013.12.09 03:12:00 -
[3863] - Quote
sorry dont know how i missed that interview from 3 days ago on a 3rd party website... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2243
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Posted - 2013.12.09 04:14:00 -
[3864] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Too bad for you CCP has now come out in favor of wanting to decouple Local and intel. Do try to keep up. Did i say anywhere in that statement that i'm against removing local if another system takes over it that doesn't makes EVE more of a hassle to play? No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE. Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way.
Which makes me ask, WTF Dude?!!?
Seriously I never advocated simply removing local. Ever. I always advocated replacing it with something and a nerf to cloaks. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2243
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Posted - 2013.12.09 04:16:00 -
[3865] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:sorry dont know how i missed that interview from 3 days ago on a 3rd party website...
Which I posted and then quoted....you didn't think something was curious about any of that?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2243
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Posted - 2013.12.09 04:21:00 -
[3866] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Astroniomix wrote:NightmareX wrote:
No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE.
Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way.
You clearly do not want a discussion as you and lucas have both convinced yourselves that we just want to break the game. The fact that we have given you tons of arguments on why it would destroy EVE is telling enough that it WILL. You, Teckos and Nikk are so horny after getting the free pass to kill npc'ers easier with your ideas that you flat out aren't capable of seeing your own flaws.
I think this should be added to all dictionaries for cognitive dissonance....
"We never said you wanted to destroy the game, we just said you wanted to destroy the game."
Okay then.
Jesus H. Christ of a ****ing pogo stick.... Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
681
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Posted - 2013.12.09 04:46:00 -
[3867] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Astroniomix wrote:NightmareX wrote:
No i didn't. I said that YOUR ideas was going to destroy the whole EVE.
Learning to read what we are saying is a nice way to keep a discussion going in a good way.
You clearly do not want a discussion as you and lucas have both convinced yourselves that we just want to break the game. The fact that we have given you tons of arguments on why it would destroy EVE is telling enough that it WILL. You, Teckos and Nikk are so horny after getting the free pass to kill npc'ers easier with your ideas that you flat out aren't capable of seeing your own flaws. The only thing you have done in this entire thread is shiptoast about "hur dur, you want to break the game". Even Lucas has been more constructive than you, which takes some serious ******* effort. |
Vas Eldryn
60
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Posted - 2013.12.09 05:25:00 -
[3868] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:sorry dont know how i missed that interview from 3 days ago on a 3rd party website... Which I posted and then quoted....you didn't think something was curious about any of that? Now, 3 times and has been posted in other threads. And you didn't think to double check to make sure I didn't actually have something to back up my claims. Good work.
yeah i gave up reading your posts a long time ago... they tend to be very negative and demeaning to every one that doesn't agree with you, I'm sorry. But when this is posted on the EVE website and not an obscure american website I've never heard of and no other site on the net, I'll take it seriously. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
681
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 05:47:00 -
[3869] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:sorry dont know how i missed that interview from 3 days ago on a 3rd party website... Which I posted and then quoted....you didn't think something was curious about any of that? Now, 3 times and has been posted in other threads. And you didn't think to double check to make sure I didn't actually have something to back up my claims. Good work. yeah i gave up reading your posts a long time ago... they tend to be very negative and demeaning to every one that doesn't agree with you, I'm sorry. But when this is posted on the EVE website and not an obscure american website I've never heard of and no other site on the net, I'll take it seriously. This is called "moving the goalpoasts". |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2243
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Posted - 2013.12.09 06:01:00 -
[3870] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:sorry dont know how i missed that interview from 3 days ago on a 3rd party website... Which I posted and then quoted....you didn't think something was curious about any of that? Now, 3 times and has been posted in other threads. And you didn't think to double check to make sure I didn't actually have something to back up my claims. Good work. yeah i gave up reading your posts a long time ago... they tend to be very negative and demeaning to every one that doesn't agree with you, I'm sorry. But when this is posted on the EVE website and not an obscure american website I've never heard of and no other site on the net, I'll take it seriously.
Sure....but you read that one.
Whatever dude. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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