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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
813
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:11:00 -
[871] - Quote
Ok, so then don't spoil your otherwise reasonable, though ridiculously and unnecessarily long, arguments with empty hyperbolic threats and doomcalling |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
266
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:23:00 -
[872] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion.
Thank you, this is quite re-assuring! :D |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:28:00 -
[873] - Quote
Tootenh'amon wrote:Maybe that's not its intended purpose, but could be a useful side efect. buffing ganking is never useful in any MMO. I believe ganking is a necessary evil, and can never really be stopped even if you wanted to.
But making it easier is not needed, and will only result in more carebears rage quiting.
Age of Conan was a great PVP game, but they promoted ganking and made ganking and spawn camping very easy to do and impossible to avoid. After all hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous play. (sound familiar) yet that game died?
EVE is a far better game than AoC ever could have been. But ganking is ganking, and carebears hate it.
Ganking needs to have a risk vs reward balance just like everything else. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:31:00 -
[874] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Ok, so then don't spoil your otherwise reasonable, though ridiculously and unnecessarily long, arguments with empty hyperbolic threats and doomcalling LOL, Yes I get your point,
And yes, my posts are often excessively long.
Sorry I try to keep them short but they almost always hit the character limit. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:33:00 -
[875] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:There's a group of people thinking we're "boiling the frog" to try and kill highsec, and there's a group of people who think we're "boiling the frog" to try and make highsec dominate the game.
True fact: no frogs will be harmed in the making of this expansion. Thank you, this is quite re-assuring! :D Yes, I am glad to see neither red frog or black frog will be hurt by this expansion.
I may need their services when I move back to null sec. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
663
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:34:00 -
[876] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Tootenh'amon wrote:Maybe that's not its intended purpose, but could be a useful side efect. buffing ganking is never useful in any MMO. I believe ganking is a necessary evil, and can never really be stopped even if you wanted to. But making it easier is not needed, and will only result in more carebears rage quiting. Age of Conan was a great PVP game, but they promoted ganking and made ganking and spawn camping very easy to do and impossible to avoid. After all hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous play. (sound familiar) yet that game died? EVE is a far better game than AoC ever could have been. But ganking is ganking, and carebears hate it. Ganking needs to have a risk vs reward balance just like everything else. ganking now, ganking tomorrow, ganking forever
the carebears are prey and are supposed to hate it and the worthless carebears, not understanding the difficulties of ganking, are unqualified to comment on their risk/reward |
Tootenh'amon
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:37:00 -
[877] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Tootenh'amon wrote:Maybe that's not its intended purpose, but could be a useful side efect. buffing ganking is never useful in any MMO. I believe ganking is a necessary evil, and can never really be stopped even if you wanted to. But making it easier is not needed, and will only result in more carebears rage quiting. Age of Conan was a great PVP game, but they promoted ganking and made ganking and spawn camping very easy to do and impossible to avoid. After all hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous play. (sound familiar) yet that game died? EVE is a far better game than AoC ever could have been. But ganking is ganking, and carebears hate it. Ganking needs to have a risk vs reward balance just like everything else.
Killing miners in 0.0 who take calculated risks for bigger rewards isn't really ganking, it's regular pvp. As for high sec nothing realy changes, warping to an anomaly isn't going to be easier than warping to a belt anyways. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:46:00 -
[878] - Quote
Tootenh'amon wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Tootenh'amon wrote:Maybe that's not its intended purpose, but could be a useful side efect. buffing ganking is never useful in any MMO. I believe ganking is a necessary evil, and can never really be stopped even if you wanted to. But making it easier is not needed, and will only result in more carebears rage quiting. Age of Conan was a great PVP game, but they promoted ganking and made ganking and spawn camping very easy to do and impossible to avoid. After all hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous play. (sound familiar) yet that game died? EVE is a far better game than AoC ever could have been. But ganking is ganking, and carebears hate it. Ganking needs to have a risk vs reward balance just like everything else. Killing miners in 0.0 who take calculated risks for bigger rewards isn't really ganking, it's regular pvp. As for high sec nothing realy changes, warping to an anomaly isn't going to be easier than warping to a belt anyways. NO SORRY,
Regular PVP is fighting other players who fight back.
Ganking is a form of PVP, but the lowest form, and not worthy of the PVP flag.
Attacking another that has zero chance of fighting back or defending themself is ganking. High sec, low sec, null sec, W-space, it does not matter. Ganking is ganking.
Not that ganking is a bad thing, but it is not a form of game play that needs any help.
I ask who is the braver pilot, The miner who goes out in null sec to mine ore at a great personal risk, Or the ganker that goes out hunting a type of ship that can not fight back?
There is no honor in ganking, it does not make you a better PVPer.
It is fun though, which is all that really matters. |
Tootenh'amon
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 17:52:00 -
[879] - Quote
So by your opinnion no miner should ever be killed in any way? |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
663
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:02:00 -
[880] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: NO SORRY,
Regular PVP is fighting other players who fight back.
Ganking is a form of PVP, but the lowest form, and not worthy of the PVP flag.
wrong
predator vs. prey is not just a better form of pvp it is the highest form of pvp, eschewing honorbattles for vicious darwinian selection |
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Skex Relbore
Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn
226
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:16:00 -
[881] - Quote
Tootenh'amon wrote:Flash Phoenix wrote:OK maybe I missed something, but what is the PURPOSE of the grav sights no longer needing to be found with probes ? Regardless of location in hi sec, low sec or null or worm holes. No skills needed to access ores or the miners in them, No effort or time needed to access ores or the miners in them. Why the lowering of effort and time to access. What happened to more effort, more reward ? Maybe it's an effort to help pvpers combat botters? Instead of having to scan the site they can just go directional-warp to the site-kill. Human miners will always have the advantage of intel channels as a warning. Bots-won't.
Actually the problem is that bots have the advantage in that situation. The bot can constantly scan local and will always boogie out of dodge if a neut shows up, There is also no reason to think that a bot can't watch intel channels for key info either (that or the botter just puts their own scouts in adjacent systems.
A player on the other hand gets distracted or spaces out or has to run take a **** and will occasionally miss that neut in local (know that's how I tend to lose ratting ships that and forgetting to turn the tank on). So if it is an effort to cause grief to botters then it is an extremely misguided and ill conceived one.
Not saying it doesn't need changing, but Ice mining was the one resource harvesting activity that put humans and bots on a more or less even footing. The low level of manual interaction required was so minimal that the bot gained less advantage from it's ability to respond instantly to change. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:42:00 -
[882] - Quote
Tootenh'amon wrote:So by your opinnion no miner should ever be killed in any way? I did not say that.
Ganking is a necessary and permanent part of every MMO, whether the developers support it or not. But Gankers do not need help ganking, there targets are generally far inferior to them, why should they need help.
I said ganking is the lowest form of PVP. it has no honor. In war who is the honorable solder, the one killing other solders? Or the one killing women and children?
Ganking can be fun. But why should CCP make it even easier to find targets to gank. There is loads of PVP available in EVE if you want it. But real PVP, unlike Ganking, puts you in a situation where you might die. Try it some time. Wining a fight that you had a chance of losing is much more rewarding than winning a fight you had no chance of losing. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
591
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:48:00 -
[883] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote: NO SORRY,
Regular PVP is fighting other players who fight back.
Ganking is a form of PVP, but the lowest form, and not worthy of the PVP flag.
wrong predator vs. prey is not just a better form of pvp it is the highest form of pvp, eschewing honorbattles for vicious darwinian selection LOL, Nice analogy, So you as a ganker are dumb predator, not a hunter?
Who is the greater hunter? The one who hunts and kills Lions, Tigers, and Bears? Or the one who hunts and kills Rabbits, Deer, and ducks?
Both take skill, but the one who hunts predators will always be considered the greater hunter.
I am not saying ganking is not fun. Or that it should be stopped. Only that there is no more honor or challenge in it than killing rabbits and deer, or women and children.
If you ever manage to succeed in a challenging PVP situation you will understand. Until then , you are not a PVPer, but just a common ganker. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
667
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:57:00 -
[884] - Quote
i am a space lord, and i will slaughter whomever i wish to slaughter
he who has the most skulls mewling in outrage over being forcibly separated from their body wins |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4021
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:58:00 -
[885] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:in other words, you feel entitled to success and are unhappy you may have to adapt to changing circumstances
the worlds tiniest violin is playing a funeral dirge for your accounts
I am unhappy to adapt and give CCP $90 less a month, because I really want to see EvE get its 20 years mark. I know you don't care for them (like you don't care for me), but hey, world spins round like that. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
667
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:02:00 -
[886] - Quote
well, there's three responses to that
the first is that you are probably krixtaling and we will see you post post post long after you claim to have unsubbed all of your accounts
the second is that it turns out when you ban bots, some botters unsubscribe. the overall health of the game is improved by removing your bot-aspirant behavior even if there is a temporary revenue setback
the third is the factual basis of your ragequitting got knocked out of the park by mynnna mathing it up so we can just ignore your input because it's based on obvious factual errors |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:17:00 -
[887] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:i am a space lord, and i will slaughter whomever i wish to slaughter
he who has the most skulls mewling in outrage over being forcibly separated from their body wins
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD MITTENS! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL EPEEN!
Now that we've established that Mittens screwed up when he lobotomized you and gave you crack instead of anesthetics, let's look at the actual reality of eve.
First of all, this change is exactly counter to the stated goal of making POS easier to manage. Second, it is going to do unkind things to the T2 market as the price of POS management is driven skyward. Third the proposed change undoes all the work of bring up the price of minerals, by flooding the primary market with 'free' trit.
So, devs, how is this a good thing for eve? The only thing that trying to force a play style gets is lost subs (see Incarna) but still I see this happening again. How hard is this? Forcing play styles = lost revenue. I know you want more pew pew, but you're trying to fight the in game culture that you helped create, and wondering why there is so much pushback on this. (Other than from nulltards who think they can get easy kills rather than the reality, where people just unsub).
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4021
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:23:00 -
[888] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:well, there's three responses to that
the first is that you are probably krixtaling and we will see you post post post long after you claim to have unsubbed all of your accounts
Considering this is not a mining character, why should I unsub it?
EvilweaselSA wrote: the second is that it turns out when you ban bots, some botters unsubscribe. the overall health of the game is improved by removing your bot-aspirant behavior even if there is a temporary revenue setback. some changes will make people ragequit but because they make a better game, they encourage more subs and it's a net plus
You don't seem to care so much about bots though, else you'd be with me asking for the anoms to be turned into proper grav sites, whose scanning is much harder to automate (and requires a less throwaway pilot) than the proposed idea.
EvilweaselSA wrote: the third is the factual basis of your ragequitting got knocked out of the park by mynnna mathing it up so we can just ignore your input because it's based on obvious factual errors
Don't think so much. He talks about the past and does not seem to know how many ice miners actually are around. A ton. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
623
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:25:00 -
[889] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Don't think so much. He talks about the past and does not seem to know how many ice miners actually are around. A ton.
The only people that know exactly how many ice miners are around are CCP. Look at the changes they're making. I don't think they're worried one bit. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4021
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:27:00 -
[890] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Don't think so much. He talks about the past and does not seem to know how many ice miners actually are around. A ton. The only people that know exactly how many ice miners are around are CCP. Look at the changes they're making. I don't think they're worried one bit.
They were not worried one bit when their manifesto was "GREED IS GOOD" either, nor were worried when they simply removed the whole storage system and replaced it with an incomplete and bugged one, for months.
They were not worried when they said freeware devs would have to pay them $99 for the honor of advertising and improving on their game either. Didn't end so well... most of the market sofware are still abandoned after the makers ragequit. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
668
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:29:00 -
[891] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Don't think so much. He talks about the past and does not seem to know how many ice miners actually are around. A ton.
you are (a) claiming that ice miners will unsub in droves and then (b) using the pre-patch figures and only managing to prove that he was absolutely correct and that even with pre-patch figures you were massively off about how long ice spawns will last
so you're contradicting yourself and wrong, which is impressive |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
668
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:30:00 -
[892] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: First of all, this change is exactly counter to the stated goal of making POS easier to manage.
ice costing more does not make pos harder to manage it makes them more expensive, which is completely different |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
668
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:33:00 -
[893] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Third the proposed change undoes all the work of bring up the price of minerals, by flooding the primary market with 'free' trit.
the work of whatnow |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:48:00 -
[894] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Third the proposed change undoes all the work of bring up the price of minerals, by flooding the primary market with 'free' trit.
the work of whatnow
CCP has, apparently until this, been trying to make mining viable again (in any sec) outside massive operations that strip entire systems of every last drop of every ore present. To do this, they've been releasing change after change that has slowly driven up the price of mins, particularly trit. The price of mins had dropped to a level so low that it made sniping high sec belt rats look profitable compared to mining.
This undoes that by flooding the major market for trit, in particular (nullsec), with 'free' trit that is being added to the mins that most nullbears mine anyway. This is bad, as it does away with the trade dynamic between high sec and nullsec, and concentrates ever more wealth in the hands of a few players.
While this is good for goonswarm et al in the short term, in the long run it leads to stagnation in the eve o economy which leads to unsubs, etc. When people talk about unsubs from these changes, they're not just talking about ice miners. There's a domino effect in play here that could, potentially, lead to massive inflation (bad for eve) and a corresponding drop in pvp. (Because you only fly what you can afford to lose). Once the major produces of goods stop subbing, the goods they previously produced rise in price due to demand as PvPers burn through ships and ammo, etc.
Do you see where this is going?
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:50:00 -
[895] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Care to expand on about how much ice do ships consumed, facing the behemoth of POSes consumption? Well really old diagoras stats tell us that something like 7.4b isotopes were harvested last march, and from a similar era, that there were 20.4k active POS. Assuming each and every one of those active POS was a large tower without any sort of fuel bonus, that's a maximum of 5.3 billion isotopes per month. If the entire difference is used up by capital ships, that means capital ships account for 28% of isotope consumption. Assuming, of course, that those respective ratios are still accurate a year later, but it's the best I've got.
Of course that maximum is actually rather too high, because some of those towers are medium, and a lot of them - the vast majority, in fact, if Fozzie's comment about how highsec only uses 15% of the ice is accurate - aren't actually in highsec. So if you start trying to account for that, the volume consumed by capital ships versus by towers slants even more towards caps.
If you need more clues, some of those same tweets give us a hint that POS and actual fuel mined don't quite line up. Compare the ratios from this one:
Quote:Online towers: 8,725 Caldari, 5,493 Amarr, 3,760 Minmatar, 2,387 Gallente.
To this one:
Quote:Isotopes harvested in March? 2.67bn Nitrogen, 1.73bn Helium, 1.70bn Oxygen, 1.18bn Hydrogen.
Caldari are rather wildly overrepresented in the POS use department, with 3.6 times more caldari POS than the least used (gallente), yet despite the popularity of Caldari ice (due to proximity to Jita) only 2.2x more of it is mined than the least mined ice. A reflection of the relative popularity of each race's capital ships? I think so.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:mynnna wrote: And as long as we're attacking your hyperbolic claims with facts and numbers, lets take on the idea that the caldari belts will be cleared in "a few minutes" shall we? Let's say a few minutes is four. Conveniently, I already know that it takes 62.5 fully boosted all V skills mackinaws to clear an ice belt in 40 minutes, so I can reasonably conclude that it would take 625 fully boosted all V skills mackinaws to do it in four.
There are from 90 to 150 ships in the systems I know, mining all the time. Reduce this "all the time" to a burst "log in" they have to do in order to catch the ice before is out. So imagine 200 ships per belt, trying to sgnatch the ice before's gone. It won't be 4 minutes but out of 4 hours, it's still a small window of opportunity. So you're agreeing that your claims of are rather hyperbolic and probably not at all unrealistic. Great! Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
671
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:50:00 -
[896] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: CCP has, apparently until this, been trying to make mining viable again (in any sec) outside massive operations that strip entire systems of every last drop of every ore present. To do this, they've been releasing change after change that has slowly driven up the price of mins, particularly trit. The price of mins had dropped to a level so low that it made sniping high sec belt rats look profitable compared to mining.
ccp has:
(1) tried to restore mining as a profession by eliminating gunmining and (2) tried to boost the value of mining in nullsec as it's badly out of whack thanks to highends being horrid
mining in highsec is disproportionately profitable and it should be lowered. ccp has never had some mineral price protection plan where all minerals must go up uP UP |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
674
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:56:00 -
[897] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: This undoes that by flooding the major market for trit, in particular (nullsec), with 'free' trit that is being added to the mins that most nullbears mine anyway. This is bad, as it does away with the trade dynamic between high sec and nullsec, and concentrates ever more wealth in the hands of a few players.
your space lords (who you shall refer to as "their lordships") do not mine in any real quantity in nullsec. that is the problem being fixed |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association Independent Faction
250
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 19:58:00 -
[898] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: CCP has, apparently until this, been trying to make mining viable again (in any sec) outside massive operations that strip entire systems of every last drop of every ore present. To do this, they've been releasing change after change that has slowly driven up the price of mins, particularly trit. The price of mins had dropped to a level so low that it made sniping high sec belt rats look profitable compared to mining.
ccp has: (1) tried to restore mining as a profession by eliminating gunmining and (2) tried to boost the value of mining in nullsec as it's badly out of whack thanks to highends being horrid mining in highsec is disproportionately profitable and it should be lowered. ccp has never had some mineral price protection plan where all minerals must go up uP UP
And where you're wrong is that highsec is barely profitable at all (normally, as right now Ice Speculation is driving the market) . Compared to every single other highsec activity, and mining in low and nullsec, highsec mining is not profitable. I make more money off highsec POS, missions, PI, and scan sites individually then I do off all ores combined.
Mind you, with goonswarms recent fix of the CSM, I'm not reupping once my sub runs out at the end of the month. If you all want to rule eve that badly, congrats, it's yours.
The Most Interesting Player In Eve. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
674
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 20:00:00 -
[899] - Quote
as it should be, mining in highsec is basically legalized botting so it should pay much less than active forms of iskmaking |
Tootenh'amon
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 20:02:00 -
[900] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: But real PVP, unlike Ganking, puts you in a situation where you might die. Try it some time. Wining a fight that you had a chance of losing is much more rewarding than winning a fight you had no chance of losing.
PVP is pretty clearly defined. I've done a lot of it and the only difference is that you don't just shoot a respawnable useless piece of npc ass, instead you kill someone who loses something. It's not about honor, honor has been gone from eve years ago. PVP is shooting non-npcs, period. |
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