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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet. GǪexcept that it doesn't bypass anything. It is working just as it should and there is no exploit.
Quote:bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet. i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well. No. You didn't illustrate what part of the rule-set is being by-passed or what the supposed exploit is. All you've done so far is illustrate that you are not familiar with what the rule-set is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Molic Blackbird wrote:Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process.
that sounds like an interesting enough experiment. i shall try it. |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
180
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fooling players into thinking items are more valuable than they thought they were is a scam not an exploit, please stop calling it an exploit. Maybe you are just getting confused by their definitions. So to shed some light on the argument:
From wikipedia: An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
So tell me where is the bug/glitch?
From Wikipedia: Scam: A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence scheme and scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence.
Now tell me this is not what is happening? |
GreenSeed
547
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
nothing wrong with margin trading, the problem is with people looking at the price of something and assuming "hey, im sure GOD made it like that, how else would that be there, right? its not like the price of something could possibly be something other than the god given, natural price of it, right? im sure no other magical mysterious force can be at play here."
the day people understand that the price tag any item has on the market is just part of makes up the price of that item, margin trading scams will be over. but that would be as bizarre as people realizing that the price on 100% of the stuff we buy IRL is a completely made up number that doesn't reflect costs of production at all, its just what the suckers are willing to pay for it.
how else can you explain why people insist on saying that steve obs was some kind of genius? they got suckered in to pay 1k usd for an item they didn't need, there no way in hell they will admit they been scammed, they better claim it was some genius move.
come to think about it, why don't people make threads listing the name of the character that got them to buy some contract or some crap at 1000x its real value to try to fill a fantasy buy order and say stuff like "omg, this guys is a business genius!"
Kalliel Egnald wrote:Molic Blackbird wrote:Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process. that sounds like an interesting enough experiment. i shall try it.
by all means, do. there's a lot of money to be made out of the uninformed and stupid. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said.
Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy. |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
180
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Posted - 2013.07.07 18:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Orbelea wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said. Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy.
Yes CCP allows scams, but margin trading is still crap in this game. Btw got nothing to get over as I don't care either way. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5421
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Orbelea wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said. Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy. Yes CCP allows scams, but margin trading is still crap in this game. Btw got nothing to get over as I don't care either way. It's actually a great skill and mechanic. This one "downside" it has is a non-issue, since it only affects traders who lack both common sense and price knowledge in the item they're trading in. Everyone else can spot this a mile away and isn't affected or it doesn't apply to them, since they buy for need instead of for trading. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Scammers target those who like to make a quick buck, without the inside knowledge of how the market works, thinking they are smart enough to get away with it. They only have themselves to blame. Margin trading is not the problem, people are. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10588
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:Malcanis wrote:It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.
You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight. The post is not a complaint, and the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.
Bullshit. You got scammed and you're trying to get it declared an exploit rather than admit you got tricked.
1 Kings 12:11
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Jimmy Morane
Aurora Novae Aetatis Expoit This Mf's
97
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Orbelea wrote: Margin trading is not the problem, people are.
Yes. In that statement you could replace margin trading with any number of things, and it would hold true. |
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kalliel Egnald wrote:Malcanis wrote:It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.
You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight. The post is not a complaint, and the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet. Bullshit. You got scammed and you're trying to get it declared an exploit rather than admit you got tricked.
nope, never been scammed, mostly because i don't care to talk to people to get scammed. i mine, mission, and basically anything else allowed for a lonewolf to do. And if i get scammed, then that is just the luck of the draw as far as i am concerned. Market PvP is just as valid a method as combat PvP.
what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence.
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Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.07.07 19:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Orbelea wrote:Fooling players into thinking items are more valuable than they thought they were is a scam not an exploit, please stop calling it an exploit. Maybe you are just getting confused by their definitions. So to shed some light on the argument:
From wikipedia: An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
So tell me where is the bug/glitch?
From Wikipedia: Scam: A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence scheme and scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence.
Now tell me this is not what is happening?
The player wallet is incapable of being pushed into negative values. Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value. when players attempt to sell to the buy order, it is cancelled due to the buyer not having enough funds in their wallet.
this is an exploit.
The Scam is putting people into this position so they can utilize this exploit. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 20:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote: what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence.
It does not, it only allows the use to trick other players. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
308
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Posted - 2013.07.07 20:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
So, here is what happens:
Player 1 puts up an order for something WAAAAY above market price, for an item which sells 1-2 a day, tops, with a minimum order for 30.
Player 2 comes along "LOL, this guy is an idiot, he wants to pay more than market price....sucker!!"
Player 2 goes off and scurries to the next region, sees some of this item listed cheap..."Hehe, this guy here is just as dumb, he is selling 30 of this item below market price....IDIOT!"
Player 2 comes back to sell the stuff, having now "ripped off" 2 players, or so he thinks....only to find player 1 didnt have enough isk in his wallet, and now Player 2 has 30 of an item which will take him forever to sell.
Quite possibly, he could have considered "If this guy wants the item so much, why didnt he buy out all the ones on the market and save himself money?", at which point, he might have figured..."Because he is trying to make me end up with all his worthless junk", especially when he sees the item listed, with a similar time, or on contracts.
However, he has $$ in his eyes, and thinks he is going to get free isk.
This, as with contract scams is where the problem comes....when someone thinks "LOL, what an idiot, they are selling Zydrine for 20 isk / unit, FREE ISK!!"
The usual use of margin trading, which you seem to think leaves players out of pocket, does no such thing. If I have a buy order in Jita for 10 EANM IIs, and I dont get enough isk into my wallet to fill the order....the person selling to me will just sell to the next buy order instead, as if mine had been filled while they were trying to sell.
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Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.07.07 20:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote: Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value.
That's the whole purpose of the skill.
Kalliel Egnald wrote: this is an exploit.
The Scam is putting people into this position so they can utilize this exploit.
I pointed out the difference before, it can either be a scam or an exploit not both.
Edit: If the order did not cancel then you can call it an exploit. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 20:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence. GǪexcept that it's not an exploit and that there are consequences to not having the ISK to fill your buy order. The margin trading mechanic simply ensures that no-one loses anything in the process.
Quote:The player wallet is incapable of being pushed into negative values. Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value. when players attempt to sell to the buy order, it is cancelled due to the buyer not having enough funds in their wallet.
this is an exploit. No. It's intended game mechanics: if you don't have the money, you don't get the goods. Margin trading does not change this. No mechanics are being bypassed. There is no exploit. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1185
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 20:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 20:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:It offers action, but not consequence. There's plenty of consequence: you pay the full market fee without getting the full order of goods. If it's a big order (and it often is if you're into really benefiting from the skill), your goods suddenly became a whole lot more expensive.
Quote:Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than GǪthe ability to use your ISK more effectively when you're into heavy trading, by not having it all tied up in long-term deals. Since it's designed in such a way that neither party can ever be cheated out of their belongings, it adds a fair bit of value and there's no reason to remove it.
It certainly isn't a skill's fault that some players choose not to research their investments and buy stuff at way above market value. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost.
This is a whole different point, scamming is allowed by CCP,in RL it's illegal. This is a game that allows scamming, same as chess allows killing pieces on a board without consequence. This has nothing to do with the margin trading skill. |
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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
573
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Posted - 2013.07.07 20:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote: However, this 'scam' is using an exploit...
No.
The player is using a fully documented and well understood mechanic.
A mechanic that works exactly as intended.
Both when allowing a trader to put up large buy orders without having to lock down precious float and when allowing a clever trader to trick a careless trader out of some cash.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
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Posted - 2013.07.07 20:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:So, we've illustrated how its a scam.
Since not even the OP has attempted to illustrate how its an exploit can we close this rumor thread? bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet. i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well. the argument many of these people are discussing is the severity of said exploit, and most are dismissing it as something that is harmless due to its limited prevalence currently in the game.
What part of the in-game ruleset for buy orders is being bypassed? You have not illustrated any such thing.
Nope, it's simply not an exploit. Buy orders can be canceled or filled at any time for many reasons. When investing, your protection from this is knowing how much the item is worth and avoiding overpaying. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15114
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 21:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:i have a feeling you are misunderstanding. No it is you that is not understanding the mechanic and claiming it as an exploit. Of which it is not. Point in fact follows.
Kalliel Egnald wrote:the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet. I rest my case.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 22:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.
Did they get your life savings, OP?
A month worth of level 4 missions?
Inquiring minds want to know. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1185
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Posted - 2013.07.07 22:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Orbelea wrote:sabre906 wrote:This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost. This is a whole different point, scamming is allowed by CCP,in RL it's illegal. This is a game that allows scamming, same as chess allows killing pieces on a board without consequence. This has nothing to do with the margin trading skill.
What makes you think ppl don't get away with scamming irl all the time? Irl, it has to do with how much, how it's done, and by who. It's a grey area.
Eve already imitates life. For example, most PLEX contract scammers in Eve get away with it, but if you ask the guy banned for scamming a noob out of a dozen plex, he'll recount a different experience. Why have a game mechanics that adds to this ambiguity more than you have to?
Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
24
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Its just one of those newbfilters in EVE that should rather not be removed (since too many got removed already).
All those Margin Trading Scams are easily spotted mostly by the full ****** line "omfg huge mistake in market, I wish I had the money" or the simple "If it's too good to be true it's probably not true". |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:
Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them.
There is no gray area, and no can of worms. I'm pretty sure you'd **** bricks if you saw just how much of EVE's trade is propped up on Margin Trading calls; to say it adds nothing of value is absurd.
The margin trading scam is not an exploit, in any way, form, or fashion. CCP has never deemed it to be an exploit, and so it is not. There is no way that it could be. I can put up a buy order for whatever I want, at whatever price I want. The protection for a seller and for myself results in the fact that the sale will fail if I can't cover it with the contents of my wallet. They lose no product, I lose no money. That's all the protection that's needed for anyone from a margin buy order.
It's not my problem if the seller was stupid enough, or more likely blinded enough by their own greed, to pay far more for an item than it is realistically worth, attempting to sell it to my overpriced buy order. I didn't click their mouse; they did, in spite of every common sense and in-game warning to do otherwise. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo GǪexcept the ability to use your ISK more effectively when you're into heavy trading, by not having it all tied up in long-term deals. Since it's designed in such a way that neither party can ever be cheated out of their belongings, it adds a fair bit of value and there's no reason to remove it.
Quote:there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. What grey area?
Quote:not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them. Actual margin trading would be really fun if implemented as a game mechanic. The trick would be to do it without opening up for some pretty severe ISK duping exploits. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them.
Nothing's grey, nothing's wormy, and you've yet to make a coherent argument for why "Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo"
Margin Trading is an incredibly useful skill for traders. Especially newer ones who have less capital to work with. The "Margin Trade" scam (ignoring the fact that scams are perfectly legitimate gameplay in EVE) has very little to do with the margin trading skill, and everything to do with tricking people into buying overpriced goods (exactly the same as the "Trit for 5 ISK/unit" contracts). If you didn't buy something for more than it's worth, you'd simply shrug when the first buy order failed and sell to the second, as you still have your stuff. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mytai Gengod
Sebees
38
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, once your "wallet" falls below a certain threshold, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.
Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense. |
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