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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
olan2005
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:23:00 -
[3001] - Quote
Usually they cant , put as erotica1 put this in public domain by publishing the broadcast , its within CCP capacity to investigate.
The issue of out of game mechanisms being used for scamming is one of the key issues in this incident |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
574
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3002] - Quote
FEED ME MORE HYPERBOLE.
|
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
688
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3003] - Quote
Jack Lennox wrote:I love EVE but for christsake, 150 pages later I don't give a **** about any of what you linked, nor is it relevant to this thread. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
142
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3004] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow
Should we also ban the people behind this? Derailment detected No just trying to find the line in the sand where we determine who and who should not be banned.
The potential of identifying the RL-personae of the "victim" for me. Publishing a soundcloud has the potential that somebody knows the victim IRL. Also, as I remember the ALOD article everything there was in chat, so purely in-game. Nothing happened out-of-game as far as I remember it.
To me there seems to be quite a different level of pressure you can put on a person in TS compared to chat.
Or just scam for the assets money and not to see how a poor idiot looses it. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Retribution.
169
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3005] - Quote
but its not a non issue to most of us... thats why people commit suicide because people like you ignore it and pretend its not a problem |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2433
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3006] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote: It might take 6-8 months for them, but they will come. And with words like ' online predators ' ' luring ' 'vulnerable victims ' 'possibly underage ' 'recorded ' 'tortured and abused ' ' published on the internet ' THEY WILL COME.
Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend. They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line. They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging.
Right, and after about 5 minutes of "digging" they'll realize the tip was completely bogus and involved none of the things you listed. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:24:00 -
[3007] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote:Upde wrote:lollerwaffle wrote:I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying'
To me, bullying is REAL LIFE harassment/abuse (either through physical or non-physical means), where the victim does not have the option of walking away.
What does that have to do with being harassed on the internet where all you have to do to 'walk away' is to hit the power button on your computer?
Especially seeing as how the supposed victim chose to continue to subject himself repeatedly to such behaviour, over digital pixels which have no bearing on real life? I could possibly understand it if this happened on social media like Facebook etc., where real identities mean the border between real and virtual worlds becomes slightly blurred. But over a video game, which has absolutely NO bearing on real life?
I don't like something, I turn the TV/Monitor/PC/console off and do something else. Easy.
Some people seem to go to great lengths to find something to be offended about. Weird. not that simple mate. Its the same for people who get harassed on social media, they can chose to walk away any time they like, but people still get into hotwater. Look up cases of facebook trolling etc for reference. Its not really the same thing as what happened here as we can differentiate between a troll laying it on thick on facebook to someone whose friend just killed themselves and an EVE manipulator. In this case though lots of grey zones have been entered which make it really difficult for both CCP and outside observers to clearlyt differentiate between the game and IRL. There are 2 camps on this case. Camp 1 - the it was a game scam and the bonus room is levelled against the in game character Camp 2 - it was a "cyber" assault on someone emotionally and was levelled against the person driving the character and not the in game character It will be interesting to see the official CCP position on all of this. Oh yes, I fully agree that facebook stuff is really blurred, as the perpetrator and victim's (in most cases just the victims though) REAL NAME/IDENTITY etc. are involved. However, in a video game, where you can play any character as anonymously as you wish, where the things you fight/scam/mine/kill rats over are just imaginary pixels, I can't see how people still subject themselves to humiliation
yes, the whole "in a video game" bit is where the bonus room falls down, its not in a video game is it ? If it was all over EVE chat, in game chat, in game messaging then yes thats in a game. however it it not. It is taken to out game comms for a very good reason which should be obvious to all of us and CCP. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
574
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:25:00 -
[3008] - Quote
olan2005 wrote:Usually they cant , put as erotica1 put this in public domain by publishing the broadcast , its within CCP capacity to investigate.
The issue of out of game mechanisms being used for scamming is one of the key issues in this incident
Then the same should apply to out of game communications for ALL practices in EVE.
CCP can't monitor Jabber, TS3, Mumble or any of it. So they should all be bannable offenses right?
|
Katkon Darnok
The Scope Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:25:00 -
[3009] - Quote
Batelle wrote:lollerwaffle wrote:I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying' Cyberbullying is a thing for sure, but this isn't it. For one, it is extremely difficult to walk away from most cyberbullying, as its typically carried out by real-life acquaintances, and thus it is easy to pursue the victim across various media platforms. Unlike this situation, which was a single event between complete strangers with more than adequate tools to end any and all contact from the other party.
The US government (and I) would disagree with your nuanced definition. Here's what is posted as a definition on stopbullying.gov (didn't even know that website existed until I googled the definition):
"Cyberbullying is bullying that takes place using electronic technology. Electronic technology includes devices and equipment such as cell phones, computers, and tablets as well as communication tools including social media sites, text messages, chat, and websites.
Examples of cyberbullying include mean text messages or emails, rumors sent by email or posted on social networking sites, and embarrassing pictures, videos, websites, or fake profiles."
No mention of "typically carried out by acquaintances" (stated) or "easy to walk away from" (implied). |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
11413
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:25:00 -
[3010] - Quote
Well, apparently Sohkar left the Bonus Room several times, only to return. Im having a hard time believing that he was being held against his will.... apparently he was VERY familiar with the little red X in the corner, and apparently excercised his right to leave at any time a few times....
Now I guess the next question would be, What brought him back? You cant forcefully drag someone back onto teamspeak.... so I guess we are back to Personal Responsibilty again...or Greed... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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lollerwaffle
Perkone Caldari State
160
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:26:00 -
[3011] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend. They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line. They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging. This is what I'm talking about. How sick would you have to be to equate paedophilia and the plethora of crimes you listed with what happened between 2 adults in the context of a video game, where one adult willingly subjected himself to verbal harassment/abuse when all he had to do to 'walk away' would be to hit the power button on his PC?
That is a very sick and twisted mind if you honestly feel that these things are on the same level. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:27:00 -
[3012] - Quote
Batelle wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote: It might take 6-8 months for them, but they will come. And with words like ' online predators ' ' luring ' 'vulnerable victims ' 'possibly underage ' 'recorded ' 'tortured and abused ' ' published on the internet ' THEY WILL COME.
Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend. They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line. They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging. Right, and after about 5 minutes of "digging" they'll realize the tip was completely bogus and involved none of the things you listed.
Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour....
Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard. |
Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:27:00 -
[3013] - Quote
This thread is just 150 pages of people making the same arguments over and over again.
Sorry anti-Erotica guys, you lost the debate before it started. GG. QQ. Psychotic Monk for CSM! |
Berendas
The Learning Curve. The Marmite Collective
834
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:27:00 -
[3014] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There's no consent with coercion. Obviously after having his stuff taken and fearing if he didn't do what they said and agreed to what they asked they would not return it there was coercion. No consent at all.
Really irrelevant though unless he sues them. I've seen this stupid line repeated ad infinitum throughout this thread. Sohkar's assets were not taken. They were not seized, filched, embezzled, robbed, or purloined - He willingly gave them up. Once he turns the assets over to E1, they cease to belong to Sohkar. They become Erotica 1's assets. There is no coercion involved, because it is no longer Sohkar's stuff, it is simply a matter of what Erotica 1 chooses to do with what is now his.
Infinity Ziona wrote: No consent at all. Sohkar absolutely consented. There is no way for one player to forcibly withdraw from the personal wallet of someone else or set up contracts on their behalf. Are you sure you know what 'consent' means?
Taken from Merriam-Webster Online -
Consent: to agree to do or allow something : to give permission for something to happen or be done
How is that not exactly what happened?
|
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
574
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:28:00 -
[3015] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Well, apparently Sohkar left the Bonus Room several times, only to return. Im having a hard time believing that he was being held against his will.... apparently he was VERY familiar with the little red X in the corner, and apparently excercised his right to leave at any time a few times....
Now I guess the next question would be, What brought him back? You cant forcefully drag someone back onto teamspeak.... so I guess we are back to Personal Responsibilty again...or Greed...
Rational comments don't work during the hours of hyperbole and parroting you should know this. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17517
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:28:00 -
[3016] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote: Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend.
They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line.
They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging.
Any credibility you had just disappeared in a puff of smoke.
If you think that the loss of some internet spaceship pixels is in any way similar to paedophilia, forced sexual intercourse etc you have a serious problem. You disgust me, as far as I'm concerned you're a blight upon these forums and humanity in general.
Please go to the nearest healthcare facility that deals with the victims of such acts and tell them that losing internet spaceships and internet spaceships money is the same as what they've been through.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Retribution.
169
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:28:00 -
[3017] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Well, apparently Sohkar left the Bonus Room several times, only to return. Im having a hard time believing that he was being held against his will.... apparently he was VERY familiar with the little red X in the corner, and apparently excercised his right to leave at any time a few times....
Now I guess the next question would be, What brought him back? You cant forcefully drag someone back onto teamspeak.... so I guess we are back to Personal Responsibilty again...or Greed...
What makes a gambler keep gambling, what makes a alcoholic keep drinking, what makes a drug addict keep taking drugs
its the goodies at the end of it |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
800
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:28:00 -
[3018] - Quote
Katkon Darnok wrote:The US government (and I) would disagree with your nuanced definition. You are a bad person and should feel bad.
There, I am now a cyberbully am and literally as bad as someone who has driven someone to suicide.
Removing nuance is fun. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1640
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:29:00 -
[3019] - Quote
Katkon Darnok wrote:
The US government (and I) would disagree with your nuanced definition. Here's what is posted as a definition on stopbullying.gov (didn't even know that website existed until I googled the definition):
Yeah well the US govt tortures people, invades countries based on cooked up intel, and is always looking for more reasons to incarcerate people where the real bullying can begin. Come up with a better source. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
lollerwaffle
Perkone Caldari State
160
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:29:00 -
[3020] - Quote
Upde wrote:lollerwaffle wrote:Upde wrote:lollerwaffle wrote:I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying'
To me, bullying is REAL LIFE harassment/abuse (either through physical or non-physical means), where the victim does not have the option of walking away.
What does that have to do with being harassed on the internet where all you have to do to 'walk away' is to hit the power button on your computer?
Especially seeing as how the supposed victim chose to continue to subject himself repeatedly to such behaviour, over digital pixels which have no bearing on real life? I could possibly understand it if this happened on social media like Facebook etc., where real identities mean the border between real and virtual worlds becomes slightly blurred. But over a video game, which has absolutely NO bearing on real life?
I don't like something, I turn the TV/Monitor/PC/console off and do something else. Easy.
Some people seem to go to great lengths to find something to be offended about. Weird. not that simple mate. Its the same for people who get harassed on social media, they can chose to walk away any time they like, but people still get into hotwater. Look up cases of facebook trolling etc for reference. Its not really the same thing as what happened here as we can differentiate between a troll laying it on thick on facebook to someone whose friend just killed themselves and an EVE manipulator. In this case though lots of grey zones have been entered which make it really difficult for both CCP and outside observers to clearlyt differentiate between the game and IRL. There are 2 camps on this case. Camp 1 - the it was a game scam and the bonus room is levelled against the in game character Camp 2 - it was a "cyber" assault on someone emotionally and was levelled against the person driving the character and not the in game character It will be interesting to see the official CCP position on all of this. Oh yes, I fully agree that facebook stuff is really blurred, as the perpetrator and victim's (in most cases just the victims though) REAL NAME/IDENTITY etc. are involved. However, in a video game, where you can play any character as anonymously as you wish, where the things you fight/scam/mine/kill rats over are just imaginary pixels, I can't see how people still subject themselves to humiliation yes, the whole "in a video game" bit is where the bonus room falls down, its not in a video game is it ? If it was all over EVE chat, in game chat, in game messaging then yes thats in a game. however it it not. It is taken to out game comms for a very good reason which should be obvious to all of us and CCP. OK, semantically it didn't happen within the game client. Contextually though, it is within the, admittedly rather loose, boundaries of the game world. What would have been your stance if this occurred through the in-game chat?
EDIT: In any case though, the victim had the option of walking away from it easily... All he had to do was disconnect from the third party voice server, which as far as I know does not require someone to disclose their personal details before being able to connect (or having to login via facebook etc.). |
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Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2438
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:29:00 -
[3021] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Batelle wrote:Right, and after about 5 minutes of "digging" they'll realize the tip was completely bogus and involved none of the things you listed. Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour.... Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard.
You're still talking about the FBI-hammer, right buddy?
online predators - no Pedophilia - no luring - no vulnerable victims - no possibly underage - hell no tortured and abused - LOL no "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
11419
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:30:00 -
[3022] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour....
Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard.
I think the FBI might also look into your false claims of Pedophilia...
My favorite part of this thread Luminous, is the fact that you are, by your actions in this thread and making false reports to news and law enforcement organizations, Cyber Bullying Erotica 1.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
800
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:30:00 -
[3023] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour....
Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard. As soon as they finish tracking down the people who made Takeshi's Castle. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1947
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:30:00 -
[3024] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Also relevant is if it happened again and a more imbalanced person was deliberately targeted and treated the same way causing that person to harm themselves then CCP would likely be liable in part since they are now fully aware of whats occurring and doing nothing would be pretty stupid from a legal point of view. Literally exactly this could be said about blowing up ships in EVE. No it couldn't. In EvE you expect your ship to get blown up. Even if a person did self harm because their ship got blown up CCP couldn't reasonably be expected to foresee that occurring since its very unlikely to happen and out of CCP's control.
However CCP could reasonably be expected to foresee self harm occurring from Erotica type scams and there are very easy methods of preventing that from occurring as best they can - making it against the rules.
It comes down to reasonably foreseeable events and the practicality of prevention. Since both are within CCP's scope then CCP could conceivably be liable for not acting. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:31:00 -
[3025] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:LordOfDespair wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:LordOfDespair wrote:
If the majority of the players and nonplayers think this behavior is unacceptable, your argument is next to worthless.
The majority of eve players have hardly even heard of the forums let along this latest Erotica thing. They just don't care because its just not all that important. This 137 page thread and multiple news articles disagree. There are currently ~2989 posts in this thread. Give or take the posts while writing this. Lets make it 3000. Even if that was a different person per post. That is only 10% of the people currently logged in to eve (30310). Since most of the posts are from a small number of people its not even close to that (prob ~1% or less). Since most people are not logged into eve at the same time its even far smaller (> .1%). Most people who play eve simply don't read, or post on the forums and most probably have never heard of Erotica. Why? Because we don't care. We are busy playing the game.
you are correct, we don't care. We didn't care about mittanis jaeger fueled antics at fanfest, but out there on the internet and in the media are people that like runing our days worse than GSF like ruining TEST's.
Once they get their fangs into something that smells a bit rotten we will all soon start caring even. This threadnaught means nothing, our opinions even less, but this isn't an eve forums contained problem anymore. Its out there in the wild propagating on various websites, gaming sites, forums. You can almost hear the mumsnet types saying those CCP types support cyberbullying or what ever other label they will attach to this scenario and then it means we will have to start caring because we might all end up being affected through the actions CCP may end up being railroaded into taking.
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Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:31:00 -
[3026] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Except for it does. Multiple recordings of abuse sessions, multiple victims, pattern of behaviour....
Oh buddy, the hammer will come down on E1, and it will come down hard. I liked the part where you are willing to lie to law enforcement and waste their time and money, and somehow you still think you have the moral high-ground. Psychotic Monk for CSM! |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:31:00 -
[3027] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote:LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:Oh buddy, buddy. Its not MY credibility. Thats not how it works my friend. They follow up EVERY tip. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Its their job. They have a list, they go through every single line. They will come. Americans dont mess around with pedophelia, online luring, **** and abuse of victims. E1 is smack down in the middle of this. And I would not associate with him. Not when FBI starts digging. This is what I'm talking about. How sick would you have to be to equate paedophilia and the plethora of crimes you listed with what happened between 2 adults in the context of a video game, where one adult willingly subjected himself to verbal harassment/abuse when all he had to do to 'walk away' would be to hit the power button on his PC? That is a very sick and twisted mind if you honestly feel that these things are on the same level.
Keep pushing that line mate. Maybe it will make you sleep better.
Meanwhile, I will sleep better knowing that I did everything i could to bring down a dangerous online predator, who lures, victimises and abuses vulnerable victims online, possibly underaged. And who knows? Maybe there is a whole ring of you doing this - like a pedophile ring - same methodology. E1 could be playing more then 1 game, looking for victims in all sorts of environments. |
olan2005
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
26
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:32:00 -
[3028] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:olan2005 wrote:Usually they cant , put as erotica1 put this in public domain by publishing the broadcast , its within CCP capacity to investigate.
The issue of out of game mechanisms being used for scamming is one of the key issues in this incident Then the same should apply to out of game communications for ALL practices in EVE. CCP can't monitor Jabber, TS3, Mumble or any of it. So they should all be bannable offenses right?
No not at all. Most alliances that have ts3, jabber etc , already have policies in place to deal with these incidents.
When this happens within the alliance context its usually a personal dispute not a deliberate attempt to provoke and humiliate someone. As there is no deliberate attempt to Bully , or humiliate someone in those circumstances CCP should not intervene
In this case there was deliberate attempt to cause humiliation , through prolonged bullying and coercion of a individual by another player using out of game mechanisms. The intent to cause harm is key within that argument. As such CCP need to intervene due to the intent of the scammers to harm another players psychological well being through coercive humiliation |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
547
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:32:00 -
[3029] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote:I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying'
To me, bullying is REAL LIFE harassment/abuse (either through physical or non-physical means), where the victim does not have the option of walking away.
What does that have to do with being harassed on the internet where all you have to do to 'walk away' is to hit the power button on your computer?
Especially seeing as how the supposed victim chose to continue to subject himself repeatedly to such behaviour, over digital pixels which have no bearing on real life? I could possibly understand it if this happened on social media like Facebook etc., where real identities mean the border between real and virtual worlds becomes slightly blurred. But over a video game, which has absolutely NO bearing on real life?
I don't like something, I turn the TV/Monitor/PC/console off and do something else. Easy.
Some people seem to go to great lengths to find something to be offended about. Weird.
EDIT: PS, all you people condoning violence or comparing this/making silly analogies to real life crimes need to get your priorities sorted.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
800
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:32:00 -
[3030] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:No it couldn't. In EvE you expect your ship to get blown up. Sure. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
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