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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Doireen Kaundur
626
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Posted - 2014.04.12 09:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show? A great American humorist and author recently said: "The one unintentional flaw of the internet generation is its ability to give the stupidest segments of our population the loudest voices." I have a tendency to agree with his statement.-á |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
236
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Posted - 2014.04.12 09:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Some will say yes. Some will say no. Some will say maybe.
This is the most accurate response you can get |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
685
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Regardless, it's considerably more of a **** than ANY other bunch of dev/publishers have ever given about their players.
Effective or not, I appreciate the efforts they go to,to make me feel like a valued member of the community and even if it is a pony show,the csm goes a long way in that regard. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1539
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Posted - 2014.04.12 09:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I guess they are more "reliable" as feedback source than simple polls due to a fact that devs speak with real people not with dry excel sheets that most definitely would contain healthy dosage of trolling. Of course that might be a good or bad thing depending on who is talking to who (whom?) and on what subject.
Also Malcanis is very effective as sarcastic holier-than-thou douche relentlessly pointing out that if you didn't put your people in CSM you have no right to have valuable opinion on anything. I miss good old manifesto writing Malcanis who could be bothered with responses longer than one line of "haha, you don't matter!". And I say it with all love I can squeeze out of my avatar. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1370
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Regardless, it's considerably more of a **** than ANY other bunch of dev/publishers have ever given about their players.
That's not really true. Starbound and Dwarf Fortress spring to mind immediately as counter examples. It would perhaps be more accurate to say: more of a **** than any large development house. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
685
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Regardless, it's considerably more of a **** than ANY other bunch of dev/publishers have ever given about their players.
That's not really true. Starbound and Dwarf Fortress spring to mind immediately as counter examples. It would perhaps be more accurate to say: more of a **** than any large development house. Fair assertion. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2878
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group. ccp apparently thinks otherwise
Schmata Bastanold wrote:I miss good old manifesto writing Malcanis who could be bothered with responses longer than one line of "haha, you don't matter!". i didn't elect him to put more effort into forums posting vOv |
Themanfromdalmontee
EVE RADIO ARMY
32
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?
Got to love 'get rid of the CSM' posts.
If you are jealous that some people go to iceland than I can understand, otherwise directly talking to people who have the pulse on what players want or would like is invaluable.
Also we have someone to shout at as well if it goes wrong :P |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1539
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:I miss good old manifesto writing Malcanis who could be bothered with responses longer than one line of "haha, you don't matter!". i didn't elect him to put more effort into forums posting vOv
God forbid community representative would interact with community.
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
685
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 09:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
This has the look of an inconspicuous Maicanis appreciation thread... Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1539
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Posted - 2014.04.12 09:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Isn't thread derailing most exciting among all forum sports? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Doireen Kaundur
626
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Posted - 2014.04.12 10:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Looking at wiki, seems CSM was developed in part as a response to developer misconduct.
So "at the time" damage control? A great American humorist and author recently said: "The one unintentional flaw of the internet generation is its ability to give the stupidest segments of our population the loudest voices." I have a tendency to agree with his statement.-á |
Jallukola
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.04.12 10:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Maybe it's just a gimmick after all, CCP forming CSM thanks to virtual riots and then sprinkle some sense being heard ontop of it. If anything, I feel CSM is nothing but a pretty tag next to your on the forums and a permission to pretend more important than a "normal" user. |
Serene Repose
1247
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 10:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Some will say yes. Some will say no. Some will say maybe. About most anything rendering this response null and void.
The CSM is as effective as the player base notices - which is not at all. It's an ipso/facto thing. But, thanks for asking.
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
237
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 10:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
There's a thing people are often forgetting about the CSM. Or they're just clueless.
People like Mangala Solaris or Mynnna have an actual playerbase behind them, which they could easily rattle up to make sure CCP hears what the players have to say.
Members of the CSM also *listen* to their people and tell that to CCP. Of course, CCP doesn't have to listen ... but we also are completely unable to tell when they listen and when they don't listen and - naturally - players are more likely to recognize when CCP doesn't listen.
People should be happy that the members of the CSM are moderate. Good people. Rational people. People who value the fact that we do not live in anarchy and chaos.
Unlike me.
I'm Austrian.
If I was on the CSM, I'd make damn sure that the voice of the people behind me would be heard.
All day. Every day. Forever.
(cue evil dictator laugh) MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!1111elevenoneoneone
Btw, did burn jita start already? |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
237
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 10:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Some will say yes. Some will say no. Some will say maybe. About most anything rendering this response null and void. The CSM is as effective as the player base notices - which is not at all. It's an ipso/facto thing. But, thanks for asking. Funny. I didn't ask anything, which means your response is null and void. I guess.
And besides that, it was 100% accurate. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1825
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 11:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show? http://www.capstable.net
Listen to the most recent podcast with CCP Dolan... New player experience, more highsec PvE missions, casual play, balance, counters to AFK cloaking, expanding the NEX store, and Power Projection.
Azami Nevinyrall for CSM9! |
Seven Koskanaiken
the shadow plague Fidelas Constans
1174
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 11:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well, they can get you banned if they don't like your face, so in the light of that I wish all our esteemed CSM a glorious and long reign, from your humble servant. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
685
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 12:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Well, they can get you banned if they don't like your face, so in the light of that I wish all our esteemed CSM a glorious and long reign, from your humble servant. that's just the vice chair. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Crompton Aberforth
University of Caille Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2014.04.12 12:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Well, they can get you banned if they don't like your face, so in the light of that I wish all our esteemed CSM a glorious and long reign, from your humble servant.
That's shooting the messenger! Maybe it's time to build a bridge....
As for the OP's comment suggesting CCP would be better off relying on polls and questionnaires, I've never seen one of those where I could honestly say everyone filling it out understood the question let alone the context behind the question.
I was told by a primary school science teacher how he needed to read science test questions out to his class. The reasoning behind this? He was confident the students could ace the answers about science however many of them struggle to comprehend the written question.
Invariably being able to discuss and debate something with players and/or their representatives is going to have more value for CCP, and in turn that value will flow to us, the end users.
I am the space cadet your mother warned you about. |
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Doireen Kaundur
632
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Posted - 2014.04.12 13:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Themanfromdalmontee wrote: Got to love 'get rid of the CSM' posts.
If you are jealous that some people go to iceland than I can understand....
LOL.
It's Iceland, not Hawaii. A great American humorist and author recently said: "The one unintentional flaw of the internet generation is its ability to give the stupidest segments of our population the loudest voices." I have a tendency to agree with his statement.-á |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
686
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 13:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:Themanfromdalmontee wrote: Got to love 'get rid of the CSM' posts.
If you are jealous that some people go to iceland than I can understand....
LOL. It's Iceland, not Hawaii. Not that funny, I would much rather a holiday in Iceland, regardless of fanfest or anything ccp related. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Budrick3
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
33
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Posted - 2014.04.12 14:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
It's better than nothing I suppose. |
Jallukola
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2014.04.12 14:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Well, they can get you banned if they don't like your face, so in the light of that I wish all our esteemed CSM a glorious and long reign, from your humble servant.
It's a pretty thought yes, shame they really can't afford to do that.
EVE players are paranoid enough to keep track of every little nitpicky thing they do in- and out-game, all the way from chatlogs to recording massive amounts of video footage. Even if some magic banhammers start flying around the place because "hurdur feelings" the logs and events will always get straightened.
And if anything, investors will most certainly notice the drops in income such bans will bring.
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
681
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 16:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?
They were originally created to be a watchdog group to keep CCP from another T20. Now, high school government in the asylum. PSYCHOTIC MONK (or Erotica1's next alt) for CSM. All gameplay modes should be represented! http://i.imgur.com/N949bKU.jpg proving that Im a sociopathic ganker and all around scum of the game http://i.imgur.com/RX8oBRN.jpg |
Serene Repose
1254
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 01:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Some will say yes. Some will say no. Some will say maybe. About most anything rendering this response null and void. The CSM is as effective as the player base notices - which is not at all. It's an ipso/facto thing. But, thanks for asking. Funny. I didn't ask anything, which means your response is null and void. I guess. And besides that, it was 100% accurate. Uh...you didn't "ask" anything? Really?
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Lothros Andastar
The Minutemen Li3 Federation
37
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Posted - 2014.04.13 01:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
It's all smoke and mirrors to make you think they affect things. |
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
72
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 02:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
Think of the CSM as a student government
And there is your answer |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
683
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Posted - 2014.04.13 05:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Space Juden wrote:Think of the CSM as a student government
And there is your answer
Student govt whose original purview was to make sure the teachers dont cheat on their own tests PSYCHOTIC MONK (or Erotica1's next alt) for CSM. All gameplay modes should be represented! http://i.imgur.com/N949bKU.jpg proving that Im a sociopathic ganker and all around scum of the game http://i.imgur.com/RX8oBRN.jpg |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
551
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Posted - 2014.04.13 05:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
ESS
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
551
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 05:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show? http://www.capstable.netListen to the most recent podcast with CCP Dolan...
The delivery fiasco of the summer minutes shows what he really thinks about the CSM....
A stack of rubber stamps labeled "CSM" would be cheaper and just effective.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Muestereate
Minions LLC
294
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 06:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
How effective at what?
Representation? This aint a democracy.
Communication? They are Gagged.
Game input? CCP throws them a bone here and there
Improving the game? General discussion would be better
Preventing disasters? not unless its combined with gaming blogs.
Not worth my time,might as well throw darts at names on a dartboard, probably work better than voting. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2200
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 07:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
No way to tell, as most of what they do is NDA This is not a signature. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
949
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Posted - 2014.04.13 07:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?
You've completely missed the point of the CSM, I think.
That said, the effectiveness of the CSM is predicated on the usefulness of the CSM members themselves. So it varies by election cycle. Someone like Mynnna is useful to the process as he knows the game quite a bit better than the average person and can give good feedback on proposed game features, whereas someone like Ripard Teg uses it to be a terrible pubbie and elevate the power of his meager soap box.
CCP listens everywhere, but the CSM offers a small group of players they can run upcoming changes by.
CSM members are not there to lobby on behalf of their groups while being armchair game developers. They're a small pool of real players they can bounce off NDA features off of and get concise, intelligent feedback that's not dictated by mob rule. Honestly public forums and suggestions are of limited value to the actual game development process and actually listening to a forum community at-large for feedback would ruin this game. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15070
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 07:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?
I was pleasantly surprised to find out how effective the CSM can be. The main value of the CSM necessarily lies in the NDA covered feedback it can give from named, accountable representatives whom CCP work with over a decent length of time.
One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.
To give a hypothetical example of what I mean, suppose CCP Rise, who has a strong background in solo/very small gang PvP wants to give a boat class a general buff. He writes up a draft devblog in which he proposes that Amarr Fleebleboats should get a 15% speed increase, while Minmatar Flobbleboats get a 20% sig reduction. In terms of his experience, the Fleeble speed increase is about as valuable as the Flobble sig bonus. However people like Progod and Sala have extensive big fleet combat, and they advise that the main use for Fleebles and Flobbles in game is as big fleet ships, in which case the 20% reduction vs bomb damage is far more powerful than an increase in subwarp speed.
Now sure, Rise could just ask the playerbase in general, but the problem with doing that is:
(1) A very poor signal to noise ratio, becaue most forum posters are unable or unwilling to give useful, coherent and logical feedback. (2) A large contingent of people who take any idea by a CCP employee about anything as a binding commitment. These people then get super mad that Flobbleboats don't get the 20% sig reduction that they were "promised!!!!". They whine on about it for years and poison all further ship balancing threads with their refusal to let it go. (3) Metagaming comes into play, eg: Say the CFC already have a large fraction of their fleet members trained into Flobbleboats due to existing doctrines. Thus the NC can gain a relative advantage in ensuring that Flobbles aren't buffed, and try and campaign to make sure that they end up the worst fleetship in the boat class. (4) Dinsdale. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15070
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 07:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:I guess they are more "reliable" as feedback source than simple polls due to a fact that devs speak with real people not with dry excel sheets that most definitely would contain healthy dosage of trolling. Of course that might be a good or bad thing depending on who is talking to who (whom?) and on what subject.
Also Malcanis is very effective as sarcastic holier-than-thou douche relentlessly pointing out that if you didn't put your people in CSM you have no right to have valuable opinion on anything. I miss good old manifesto writing Malcanis who could be bothered with responses longer than one line of "haha, you don't matter!". And I say it with all love I can squeeze out of my avatar.
One of the reasons I'm not running again is so that I will have the time and energy to have ideas like that again.
Also I get sarcastic when I am confronted with the same stupid strawmen and fallacies over and over again. Does there come a point where one no longer entitled to expect patience if one simply can't be bothered to learn? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1543
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Posted - 2014.04.13 21:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:(4) Dinsdale.
Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :)
And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :)
Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Vyl Vit
627
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Posted - 2014.04.13 21:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Funny funny funny. How effective is the CSM? The only way to find out is for CCP to release another debacle like the forced in-station "view", have the player base rise up in protest, and watch the CSM go to the CCP staff and tell them, "You know what? I don't think they like this very much."
Of course. CCP could already TELL this by the uprising itself. SO, the CSM MUST be for US! So, you tell me, how comfortable are you now just knowing that bunch of folks (who have to invent a purpose for themselves as they await the next disaster) is there waiting to tell CCP something they already know to give YOU a sense YOU are being represented...personally...
Uh...by an elected official? (Somebody google "farce" for me.) Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
342
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
farce /f+ñrs/ noun: farce; plural noun: farces
a comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.
synonyms: slapstick comedy, slapstick, burlesque, vaudeville, buffoonery "the stories approach farce"
antonyms: tragedy GÇóthe genre of farce. GÇóan absurd event. "the debate turned into a drunken farce"
synonyms: mockery, travesty, absurdity, sham, pretense, masquerade, charade, joke, waste of time
There you go. Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15086
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Funny funny funny. How effective is the CSM? The only way to find out is for CCP to release another debacle like the forced in-station "view", have the player base rise up in protest, and watch the CSM go to the CCP staff and tell them, "You know what? I don't think they like this very much."
Of course. CCP could already TELL this by the uprising itself. SO, the CSM MUST be for US! So, you tell me, how comfortable are you now just knowing that bunch of folks (who have to invent a purpose for themselves as they await the next disaster) is there waiting to tell CCP something they already know to give YOU a sense YOU are being represented...personally...
Uh...by an elected official? (Somebody google "farce" for me.)
So you're a vaccine denier? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3112
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Posted - 2014.04.13 22:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013 Oh god. |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1649
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013
And what exactly have you done that makes your viewpoint more valid than his? Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20727
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013 As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Lady Areola Fappington
new order logistics CODE.
1663
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
The CSM are a focus group. They are quite useful in being a focus group. They give CCP focus group relevant data.
The debates of utility of focus group data can go long and loud, but in the end, CCP took a standard MMO company practice, and turned it into what it is here.
Most companies pay people to sit on a focus group. In EVE, we fight to become a member.
Few years back, my SO got paid something like $250 + expenses, to travel to California and sit for three days answering questions about a MMO she played. Basically, exact same thing the CSM does, only a lot less formal, and more cherry-picked by the devs. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4429
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:39:00 -
[45] - Quote
What the CSM is:
In the CSM's case players get the added "benefits" of participating in election theater for positions in a body which are not truly representative, and have no authority. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3112
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Riot Girl wrote:"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013 As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion. Yeah, but no offence Tippia, you're pretty chummy with just about anyone on the CSM so basically it's just **** your opinion.
Oh god. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
689
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show? I was pleasantly surprised to find out how effective the CSM can be. The main value of the CSM necessarily lies in the NDA covered feedback it can give from named, accountable representatives whom CCP work with over a decent length of time. One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game. To give a hypothetical example of what I mean, suppose CCP Rise, who has a strong background in solo/very small gang PvP wants to give a boat class a general buff. He writes up a draft devblog in which he proposes that Amarr Fleebleboats should get a 15% speed increase, while Minmatar Flobbleboats get a 20% sig reduction. In terms of his experience, the Fleeble speed increase is about as valuable as the Flobble sig bonus. However people like Progod and Sala have extensive big fleet combat, and they advise that the main use for Fleebles and Flobbles in game is as big fleet ships, in which case the 20% reduction vs bomb damage is far more powerful than an increase in subwarp speed. Now sure, Rise could just ask the playerbase in general, but the problem with doing that is: (1) A very poor signal to noise ratio, becaue most forum posters are unable or unwilling to give useful, coherent and logical feedback. (2) A large contingent of people who take any idea by a CCP employee about anything as a binding commitment. These people then get super mad that Flobbleboats don't get the 20% sig reduction that they were "promised!!!!". They whine on about it for years and poison all further ship balancing threads with their refusal to let it go. (3) Metagaming comes into play, eg: Say the CFC already have a large fraction of their fleet members trained into Flobbleboats due to existing doctrines. Thus the NC can gain a relative advantage in ensuring that Flobbles aren't buffed, and try and campaign to make sure that they end up the worst fleetship in the boat class. (4) Dinsdale. Urghs. What a wall of text. But we are lucky. The tldr is "Dinsdale". Now that was easy. Thx Malcanis!
Remove insurance. |
Winchester Steele
947
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 23:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Riot Girl wrote:"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013 As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion.
Yeah, I agree. Malcanis was a very good voice to have on the CSM, and overall represented my opinion accurately. Not all the time mind you, but often enough that I am sorry he isn't running again.
Maybe a little bit too forthright for a politician though :D ... |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1835
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 05:46:00 -
[49] - Quote
Doireen Kaundur wrote:I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.
Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?
Quality, not quantity.
Forums produce high-quantity, low-quality player input with varying levels of granularity. Questionaires produce coarse granularity, low-quality, high-quantity player input. When you're resorting to sub numbers to determine how receptive the community is to changes, you're pretty far up **** creek without a paddle, and your canoe probably has a hole on the bottom. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1280
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Malcanis wrote:(4) Dinsdale. Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :) And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :) Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me?
Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him? Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
|
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
553
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Malcanis wrote:(4) Dinsdale. Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :) And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :) Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me? Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him?
Not so much fan boy as appreciating straight talk and low bullshit tolerance. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1280
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:19:00 -
[52] - Quote
I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote or don't think that their vote will be effective or that the csm will be representative of their views.
This is why I always say that csm candidates should seek to represent the best interests of the player base and treat them all as their constituency as opposed to the narrow interests some of them project. In this year's candidate list I quickly got fed up of hopefuls telling me that they liked small gangs and lowsec and wanted to represent that play style to ccp, despite the fact that that is my preferred play style.
Every horse in the race is wearing the same colors it seems. So I deliberately voted for candidates that didn't do this. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:19:00 -
[53] - Quote
I'm glad the CSM is there and I appreciate the effort that many of them seem to put in. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2210
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
The only thing worse than having the CSM, would be not having it. This is not a signature. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1280
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Malcanis wrote:(4) Dinsdale. Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :) And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :) Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me? Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him? Not so much fan boy as appreciating straight talk and low bullshit tolerance.
Eve is full of straight talk and a low bull **** tolerance, perhaps you can go thirds on the motel room rent. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Toshiro Ozuwara
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
675
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:36:00 -
[56] - Quote
On a scale of 1 to potato, I score them a rutabaga. It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon,-ádeep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away-áNot today, it's not the way that this kid plays |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
89
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.
Question answered. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 08:58:00 -
[58] - Quote
Luwc wrote:ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.
Question answered. Ask yourself how you would feel about EVE if they were NOT there. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Vyl Vit
629
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 10:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Funny funny funny. How effective is the CSM? The only way to find out is for CCP to release another debacle like the forced in-station "view", have the player base rise up in protest, and watch the CSM go to the CCP staff and tell them, "You know what? I don't think they like this very much."
Of course. CCP could already TELL this by the uprising itself. SO, the CSM MUST be for US! So, you tell me, how comfortable are you now just knowing that bunch of folks (who have to invent a purpose for themselves as they await the next disaster) is there waiting to tell CCP something they already know to give YOU a sense YOU are being represented...personally...
Uh...by an elected official? (Somebody google "farce" for me.) So you're a vaccine denier? Denier /-êd+¢nj+Ör/ or den is a unit of measure for the linear mass density of fibers. It is defined as the mass in grams per 9000 meters.[1] The denier is based on a natural referenceGÇöi.e., a single strand of silk is approximately one denier. A 9000-meter strand of silk weighs about one gram.
Nooooo I don't think I'm one of those. Perhaps you meant one who denies the efficacy of vaccines...well, only a fool blindly accepts medical science is flawless. There have been some might strange things that result from vaccines. (You may find this a lengthy read.)
However, like a comic laughing at his own punchline, or using the word being defined in its own definition, as a CSM member it's in rather poor taste for you to respond in a thread with this subject. (There may be diplomatic, objective or delicate ways to pull it off, none of which you've managed.) Yet, I have to say, your participation in this thread serves to amply support the position I take with regard to the CSM and CCP.
Thanks for proving my point!
Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Jeremiah Saken
State Protectorate Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 11:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
It's better to show new ideas and discuss it with 10 people than 40000. Then again it will be opinions of 10 people not 40000. ESS is good example. EvE is not democracy.
Dinsdale "The bloody cartels" became immortal. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
|
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
317
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 14:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote
This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough.
|
Jeremiah Saken
State Protectorate Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 14:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Quote:One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.
CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3121
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 18:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The only thing worse than having the CSM, would be not having it. Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve.
Oh god. |
Serene Repose
1262
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 19:16:00 -
[64] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve. Umm...they disband once a year so we can have a pantomime election!
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15099
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 19:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Quote:One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.
CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected.
Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15099
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 19:24:00 -
[66] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve. Umm...they disband once a year so we can have a pantomime election!
Ship Maintenence Arrays drop loot again.
That was us.
Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
693
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 20:27:00 -
[67] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:Quote:One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.
CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected. Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games?
If I worked on a video game, I wouldnt. PSYCHOTIC MONK (or Erotica1's next alt) for CSM. All gameplay modes should be represented! http://i.imgur.com/N949bKU.jpg proving that Im a sociopathic ganker and all around scum of the game http://i.imgur.com/RX8oBRN.jpg |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2184
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 20:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough. Given your coalition has 40k people, can vote with alts giving them 120k votes and will almost certainly vote as a bloc and you also have a permanent Goonswarm CSM why would we bother with the GoonSM Goonlection?
We have better things to do while you ruin the game with your meta-garbage. Like play it.
Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Jeremiah Saken
State Protectorate Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
Quote:Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games?
I do, but it's not my job to create games. Coding without good idea is a waste don't you think? My model example is "infamous loot bukkake". It was designed by someone who didn't know how exploration looks like. I don't belive that everybody in CCP are writing code. Still i didn't see any bold movement to justify naming the expansion Rubicon. I really hope they have something behind colonization term because current mobile structures have nothing to do with colonization.
Shame you don't running again Malcanis. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2639
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:09:00 -
[70] - Quote
The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels. As a lobby for them, it does en excellent job of skewing the game's design in the direction of improving the profitability for the cartels, and specifically their leaders' wallets, while impoverishing all other aspects of the Eve universe.
Remember, one of the dev's, I think it was the Pandemic Legion guy, said on the forums, and I paraphrase, "if your group is not on the CSM, we don't listen to you". He apparently was "joking", but the sentiment was clear.
How many of the current cartel representatives have said the same thing this last year?
There is a reason that the cartels exert so much energy to dominate the CSM every year. They know precisely how much power this gives them in-game.
the goons do far more damage to high sec using the the CSM than any Burn Jita event can possibly imagine to. And it will continue, as the CSM convinces their very wiling partner, CCP, to give the CSM ever increasing say on game design.
So yes, the CSM is an extremely effective tool in the political machine of the cartels, and will continue to, right up until the moment the largest segment of the subscription base, the silent majority, leaves for greener pastures Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2895
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:26:00 -
[71] - Quote
hello, dinsdale |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1055
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.GÇ¥
But I'll make an exception.
Every company that sells a consumer product will have part of their staff dedicated to understanding their customers.
This is done by observing how the product is used, by issuing polls to the customers, by having dedicated customer focus groups, lately by providing their customers with a forum to discuss their experience and by participating and monitoring social media.
CCP does all of this.
The only difference from many other companies is that CCP provides their customers to have an input on who should be on one public customer focus group.
But in difference to random customers, or even members of the CSM, CCP have access to all the data from all the sources.
So do the CSM matter?
If the selected group is good, knowledgeable, capable of coherent argument and can provide CCP with valid input, sure.
If not they'll get some free lunches, some pats on the back and be ignored.
Vote for Fuzzy Steve! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4689
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:hello, dinsdale
And hello Dinsdale's tears. Dammit, I forgot my umbrella. Why don't they sell these in the NEX Store? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2639
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:46:00 -
[74] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.GÇ¥ But I'll make an exception. Every company that sells a consumer product will have part of their staff dedicated to understanding their customers. This is done by observing how the product is used, by issuing polls to the customers, by having dedicated customer focus groups, lately by providing their customers with a forum to discuss their experience and by participating and monitoring social media. CCP does all of this. The only difference from many other companies is that CCP provides their customers to have an input on who should be on one public customer focus group. But in difference to random customers, or even members of the CSM, CCP have access to all the data from all the sources. So do the CSM matter? If the selected group is good, knowledgeable, capable of coherent argument and can provide CCP with valid input, sure. If not they'll get some free lunches, some pats on the back and be ignored.
What describe is indeed how well-run companies keep track of what consumers want.
However in CCP's case, the forum they provide is this very one. Two things stop it from being effective: a. People are not aware of it. I came across a miner today in low sec. Jan 2014 char. He did not even know about the forums. Now, in retrospect, he did not know who mynnna was, and thought the goons were "some corporation". That is a very large segment of the customer base, and that group does not represent itself on these forums. (and no, though I was in a combat Loki, I did not kill him. I shot the rats he wanted help with, and left him alone.) b. The null sec cartels are very good at getting any thread that threatens their agenda derailed or locked, very quickly.
And as for the focus group you describe, no doubt the CSM is that focus group. But how many successful companies would build a focus group that is dominated by the small minority of their customer base? If Proctor and Gamble ran focus groups like CCP does, when P&G does potential customer response for a new toothpaste, the would come back from the focus group thinking a toothpaste that allows the user to spit cyanide at anyone is a really good idea. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2895
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 22:02:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:b. The null sec cartels are very good at getting any thread that threatens their agenda derailed or locked, very quickly. threads you post in get locked and you think someone else is responsible? |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol
33
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 22:02:00 -
[76] - Quote
http://csm8.org/csm8-reasonable-things-results/
Check the date of the list...
Check the things that 'we', the players asked for as 'reasonable things'.
Check how many have been implemented since that date.
Come to your own conclusions... |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1287
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 22:15:00 -
[77] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote:I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough.
Agreed on all points I vote in every election for all of the reasons you've outlined, plus democracy is hard won.
Sadly a great deal of high sec won't or don't vote in the csm as they think it's dominated by null cartels and people who hate their play style. The csm needs to actively counter this as it's becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4690
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 22:17:00 -
[78] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote: Sadly a great deal of high sec won't or don't vote in the csm as they think it's dominated by null cartels and people who hate their play style. The csm needs to actively counter this as it's becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.
And it's dominated by those things precisely because highsec is too stupid to vote.
Well, and because they aren't anywhere close to the silent majority they think they are. It's a rich tapestry. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1047
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 05:39:00 -
[79] - Quote
CSM is as effective or ineffective as it allows itself to become.
If we work with the devs then we get closer to the planning stages end of the development cycle and are listened to in a more cooperative fashion.
No, Nothing I can say will convince some of you because any evidence would mean taking the word of players, devs . . . other people. If a change happens it probably happened in spite of our efforts, not because of it. If we manage to push SMAA drops to the top of the fix it list then it was probably there already, right?
All this talk of the work involved, the day to day talking to devs, passing forward concerns of people who can make a good reasoned point without using all caps . . . yeah.
So take the arguments as presented.
1) It is a popularity contest. (Show me a democratic process that isn't. So you are right on that one.) 2) It is a publicity stunt. (If so it is not a very good one. Nobody has interviewed me and those of us who see our names out there damn well wrote them ourselves.) 3) It is a trick to quiet the noisy forums and make you think they are listening to you (Doesn't seem to be working if that is true) 4) We are a cheap focus group of various skill sets within the game who work for almost free (If you ignore the flights to Iceland) 5) We are an oversight committee to make sure the devs don't cheat. (Um, they have an internal affairs for that, so no) 6) We are whatever we make ourselves and have not been that same two councils in a row.
To expand on that last idea. We are also what you, the voters, make us. If you step back and abstain then we are what somebody else makes us and you can still complain but it will seem a little shiny, at that point. If you want a diverse council of people who will work . . . then vote for the ones you think will do that.
If you want to proclaim it a grand waste of time then go ahead. But we are still in there, trying and working. Just remember that you get what you work for and vote for. If you don't make the effort to VOTE then you will probably get what you put into the process.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
92
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 06:23:00 -
[80] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Luwc wrote:ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.
Question answered. Ask yourself how you would feel about EVE if they were NOT there.
ask yourself if it really makes any difference.
Only thing CSM does is work for the powerblocs.
inb4 pubbie tears.
I have been in the CFC for 3 years.
We wanted drones nerfed. CSM got on it We wanted Titans nerfed. CSM got on it
etc. etc.
So please dont try to be a smartass publord. |
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3122
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 07:38:00 -
[81] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ship Maintenence Arrays drop loot again.
That was us.
No it wasn't. lol. Oh god. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1839
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 07:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
Luwc wrote:ask yourself if it really makes any difference.
Only thing CSM does is work for the powerblocs.
inb4 pubbie tears.
I have been in the CFC for 3 years.
We wanted drones nerfed. CSM got on it We wanted Titans nerfed. CSM got on it
etc. etc.
So please dont try to be a smartass publord.
Both titans and drones required more than "CSM lobbying" to convince CCP to fix. With titans, we took 900 m/s permamwd Drakes and tossed them into the meatgrinder as an example of how ridiculous it was that they were able to apply full damage against fast moving ships, even with transversal. With drone assist we did nothing but field Dominix fleets even in engagements where they didn't really have a place. With AoE DDs we demonstrated that we (with our friends) could field enough titans to clear a grid of literally everything smaller than a titan.
0.0 groups field CSM candidates to get a strong nullsec presence in the CSM and shoot down bad ideas that would screw up the quality of life in nullsec. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
1095
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 10:07:00 -
[83] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:b. The null sec cartels are very good at getting any thread that threatens their agenda derailed or locked, very quickly. threads you post in get locked and you think someone else is responsible?
Grrrr, cartel moderators. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
154
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 10:54:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.GÇ¥
I did a once over of the thread, and this sums up any response I thought of making.
Edit: If you think the CSM is useless, pod yourself. thecoffeerocks.blogspot.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks | thecoffeerocks.blogspot.com https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2185
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
Coffee Rocks wrote:Lors Dornick wrote: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.GÇ¥
I did a once over of the thread, and this sums up any response I thought of making. Edit: If you think the CSM is useless, pod yourself. Its not that they're useless its that they were an idea designed to represent all EvE players but the voting process is manipulated by coalitions to only represent sov null. They are then effectively an imbalancing factor in the game. This can easily be seen by looking at how bad null and sov mechanics are.
That 10 of 11 CSM voted against a covert ops cloak on the Nestor, making it a completely fail ship is good evidence they're not exactly good for the game.
That the CSM had a hand in diluting the usefulness of siphons, once again making them useless, to protect their own null interests, is further proof of bias and evidence they're not good for the game.
I didn't vote for them, they don't represent me or the majority of players in this game and they need to be scrapped imo.
Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9379
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:35:00 -
[86] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:That 10 of 11 CSM voted against a covert ops cloak on the Nestor, making it a completely fail ship is good evidence they're not exactly good for the game. You're not interested in what's good for the game. A covert ops Nestor wouldn't have been. It would have been good for you though, I'm sure, which is why you think it's good for the game. As with everything else you have to say on the subject of game balance. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2185
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:44:00 -
[87] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:That 10 of 11 CSM voted against a covert ops cloak on the Nestor, making it a completely fail ship is good evidence they're not exactly good for the game. You're not interested in what's good for the game. A covert ops Nestor wouldn't have been. It would have been good for you though, I'm sure, which is why you think it's good for the game. As with everything else you have to say on the subject of game balance. Horsecrap. I have a Stratios that can do 900 dps vs my widow which can do 900, applies all its dps to small ships vs my widow which applies very little except to battleships, locks a frigate in 3 seconds, vs 8 seconds in my widow, mitigates damage much better than my widow, aligns twice as fast, moves 3 times as fast....
You're either stupid or a newb if you think a nerfed hull like the battleship is more dangerous in cov ops than smaller ships. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
1192
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 11:48:00 -
[88] - Quote
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- H. L. Mencken
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
321
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 15:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels. As a lobby for them, it does en excellent job of skewing the game's design in the direction of improving the profitability for the cartels, and specifically their leaders' wallets, while impoverishing all other aspects of the Eve universe.
...
There is a reason that the cartels exert so much energy to dominate the CSM every year. They know precisely how much power this gives them in-game.
the goons do far more damage to high sec using the the CSM than any Burn Jita event can possibly imagine to. And it will continue, as the CSM convinces their very wiling partner, CCP, to give the CSM ever increasing say on game design.
Granted, most of this is twaddle, but peel back the layers, and the core principle is right. We get people of the CSM to direct and protect our way of playing.
It didn't used to be this way. The CSM up until and including CSM 5 was largely ignored by the Nullsec entities (barring the odd guy who wanted to play armchair politician). Then the CSM blithely took a hammer to our Jump Bridge networks, and didn't blink as our anomolies got hammered in to the ground, and we realised we had to get the brakes on on this clown car, before a bunch of ignorants and incompetants plowed it straight through our part of the game, leaving flaming debris in its wake. So, since then we have. And if you want to make sure your play style is protected, as we want to protect ours, you have to get your guys on to seats too, it's as simple as that.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2185
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:13:00 -
[90] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels. As a lobby for them, it does en excellent job of skewing the game's design in the direction of improving the profitability for the cartels, and specifically their leaders' wallets, while impoverishing all other aspects of the Eve universe.
...
There is a reason that the cartels exert so much energy to dominate the CSM every year. They know precisely how much power this gives them in-game.
the goons do far more damage to high sec using the the CSM than any Burn Jita event can possibly imagine to. And it will continue, as the CSM convinces their very wiling partner, CCP, to give the CSM ever increasing say on game design.
Granted, most of this is twaddle, but peel back the layers, and the core principle is right. We get people of the CSM to direct and protect our way of playing. It didn't used to be this way. The CSM up until and including CSM 5 was largely ignored by the Nullsec entities (barring the odd guy who wanted to play armchair politician). Then the CSM blithely took a hammer to our Jump Bridge networks, and didn't blink as our anomolies got hammered in to the ground, and we realised we had to get the brakes on on this clown car, before a bunch of ignorants and incompetants plowed it straight through our part of the game, leaving flaming debris in its wake. So, since then we have. And if you want to make sure your play style is protected, as we want to protect ours, you have to get your guys on to seats too, it's as simple as that. Well considering the atrocious state of the game, especially in null sec, stagnation, 40k player coalitions designed to steamroll any real opposition you guys are doing a fantastic job - of totally screwing up EvE Online so you can have your 'playstyle' protected.
But then that was the stated intention of Goons when they joined EvE, to ruin it... congrats.
As for getting seats, its not a practical suggestion given the opposition will be 10's of thousands of organized out of game SA members and their pets. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
700
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 18:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels. As a lobby for them, it does en excellent job of skewing the game's design in the direction of improving the profitability for the cartels, and specifically their leaders' wallets, while impoverishing all other aspects of the Eve universe.
...
There is a reason that the cartels exert so much energy to dominate the CSM every year. They know precisely how much power this gives them in-game.
the goons do far more damage to high sec using the the CSM than any Burn Jita event can possibly imagine to. And it will continue, as the CSM convinces their very wiling partner, CCP, to give the CSM ever increasing say on game design.
Granted, most of this is twaddle, but peel back the layers, and the core principle is right. We get people of the CSM to direct and protect our way of playing. It didn't used to be this way.
Yeah, the CSM was created to watchdog CCP and keep them from repeating T20.
lol And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit. |
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