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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:24:00 -
[1]
Greetings All,
I am curious and I am looking for some serious answers here. After a short break from the game because of RL interference I am back. Right before I left I was beginning to come to a disturbing conclusion about EVE. It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to. Instead I am finding a lot of disturbing parallels with other MMO's.
Now I know I am pretty fresh faced in so far as EVE goes, but I have had a chance to participate in a wide spectrum of the things to do in EVE. I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality. Of course those grinding players for some killboard might disagree. Interestingly enough unless I choose to kill indiscriminately PvP has a distinctly reverse cash flow.
I am looking for insight. I hope I am wrong, but right now it just looks like EVE is another grinding MMO masquerading as something greater. Your thoughts?
/kowtow
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Gierling
Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:31:00 -
[2]
Well Eve didn't start out that way. Although tech II has made it so, except that you can't speed up the grind.
Your forced to pay for it on thier timescale.
If CCP releases something new and uber they can be sure that people will pay subs for 2 months required to train it and then will repeat the process down the line. Unlike WOW or other games where gamers will get access to the content relatively quickly and get bored of it.
I would say that WOW and other games now have less comparative grind for new content then EVE Does.
Really changing tech II to be uber was the deathknell but we are seeing the fallout now. Nothing in the damn game short of Titans should require any skill to be level 5, and even titans should only really require spaceship Command 5 (not advanced).
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Bahlan
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:33:00 -
[3]
well... Farming ISK's is ofc neccesary to fuel the war machine :)
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:33:00 -
[4]
It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
Besides that, working with a group takes the ahrdest boredom edge of any task.
Old blog |
Ann Mari
Amarr Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Telaura Xi Greetings All,
I am curious and I am looking for some serious answers here. After a short break from the game because of RL interference I am back. Right before I left I was beginning to come to a disturbing conclusion about EVE. It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to. Instead I am finding a lot of disturbing parallels with other MMO's.
Now I know I am pretty fresh faced in so far as EVE goes, but I have had a chance to participate in a wide spectrum of the things to do in EVE. I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality. Of course those grinding players for some killboard might disagree. Interestingly enough unless I choose to kill indiscriminately PvP has a distinctly reverse cash flow.
I am looking for insight. I hope I am wrong, but right now it just looks like EVE is another grinding MMO masquerading as something greater. Your thoughts?
/kowtow
I think you might be confusing grinding with work. You still have to work to get something, else there wouldn't be any point. I havn't played in 3 weeks, but I'm making isk and gaining skill. I loaded up my trades at above avergae prices with 3 month time-outs, I'm logging on now and then to change those critical have to have at level 5 fitting skills. So I'm making money and making my char better with almost no time invested. I'd say that Eve apart from other games.
But make no mistake, if you want isk, you have to work for it. It you want a lot of isk, you have to work harder. If you feel that the only stuff worth having is tech 2, you're gonna work and work and work to replace the losses.
///End
"There can be no justice, if rules are absolute" "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend"
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rod Blaine It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II |
Kitty O'Shay
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:49:00 -
[7]
There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.) --
[THARS] is recruiting 1 ebil pirate. Be the one! |
Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 17:55:00 -
[8]
Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
Rod, as far as ôa group takes the hardest boredom edge of any taskö I both agree and disagree with you. I have read the forums enough to understand you're an advocate of all content player driven involving player interaction. I would only qualify your suggestion with working with the right group can take the edge off. Otherwise it could easily be a painful experience. Even you must admit that sometimes for some people finding that right group may not happen right away.
Overall I am not bored and I don't mind working/grinding at all, I am just wondering if there are any activities out there I should investigate, that I missed, before I consign myself to grinding or moving on.
/kowtow
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
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Mtthias Clemi
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:02:00 -
[10]
I find tht PVPing is the most enjoyable task in this game, when its done properly.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
qft 3 weeks and counting ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Shamis Orzoz
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[12]
No grind, use your mind to make isk, and keep the skills going 24/7.
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Down Range
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gierling Well Eve didn't start out that way. Although tech II has made it so, except that you can't speed up the grind.
Your forced to pay for it on thier timescale.
If CCP releases something new and uber they can be sure that people will pay subs for 2 months required to train it and then will repeat the process down the line. Unlike WOW or other games where gamers will get access to the content relatively quickly and get bored of it.
I would say that WOW and other games now have less comparative grind for new content then EVE Does.
Really changing tech II to be uber was the deathknell but we are seeing the fallout now. Nothing in the damn game short of Titans should require any skill to be level 5, and even titans should only really require spaceship Command 5 (not advanced).
Right. Because everyone should be flying a carrier and dread and have a titan on order.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
That's what I was saying. Gatecamping is a grind, hunting is not. I was not implying neither were grinds.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II |
Gierling
Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:20:00 -
[15]
Titans would obviously still be expensive.
As far as Carrier and dreads, everyone who wants to fly them should be able to.
I think that training to be a good frigate pilot should take just about as long as training to be a good dreadnaught pilot. The real problem with EVE lately has been power creep, there is no real balance to the high end content aside from cost and training time and that DOES Require grinding.
So in Eve if you Grind hard enough you can pwn. Frankly I think if they showed lvl 5 requirements the door that we would have a more balanced game out of necessity. How hard would it be to make sure that big ships have just as many drawbacks as little ship, and only people who are comfortable with those strengths and weaknesses are flying them. Flying ships because they want to and enjoy that style of play.
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Zhelavar
Gallente CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Telaura Xi Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind?
Somewhere along the line Mythic or SOE brainwashed people into placing a neutral connotation to the word "grind."
For the rest of us, "grind" is a drudgery and dragging repetition... nothing postitive or neutral about it.
The gate campers are most likely sitting there in Vent, trading **** links and giggling about boobies, so whether one person comes through an hour or one every 5 minutes, they probably still had the time of their life. That is not a grind.
Grind is not "repetition" or "long period of time."
Grind is sucky repetition and sucky long period of time.
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:31:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Verdon Teraskun on 07/08/2006 18:32:21
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rod Blaine It only is as much of a grind as you let it be.
If you don't want to do utterly repetitive tasks, try trading for a living. It can be quite enjoyable.
QFT.
In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down.
etc
Or you can sell timecodes for ISK...
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Arkanor
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:32:00 -
[18]
^ oops darn alt.
Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that? |
Vanlade
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Telaura Xi Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
Rod, as far as ôa group takes the hardest boredom edge of any taskö I both agree and disagree with you. I have read the forums enough to understand you're an advocate of all content player driven involving player interaction. I would only qualify your suggestion with working with the right group can take the edge off. Otherwise it could easily be a painful experience. Even you must admit that sometimes for some people finding that right group may not happen right away.
Overall I am not bored and I don't mind working/grinding at all, I am just wondering if there are any activities out there I should investigate, that I missed, before I consign myself to grinding or moving on.
/kowtow
I started trading with 40k ISK, and without ever leaving the station I have now over 6mil. This is by buying/selling, without any trade skills. I only spend about 5 minutes online a day.
Quote: The question you should ask is not who will let you, but who will stop you.
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Caleb Paine
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:38:00 -
[20]
Uhm, there IS no grinding in EVE, grinding to me consists of killing mobs doing quests or in any case DO something in order to 'level', it interferes with normal gameplay. In EVE the 'leveling' is done automatically, no matter what you do. So it doesn't at all interfere with your gaming experience.
You don't have to go to a system and kill rats for 5 hours, or mine a whole day. Therefore; no effort = no grinding
----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Telaura Xi I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
1. Only low-sec (and high-sec) space actually awards security status changes for popping other players
2. Security status hits are totally irrelevant if you're not podding
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Ghargon
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:42:00 -
[22]
in all my time in eve i have to say that pvp is the thing that makes this game what it is, mainly because you actually risk something. Ive never got the same kicks from anything else. As has been said before when you stop looking at mining, agent running and ratting as grinding and as a means to an end then it becomes alot more enjoyeable, also it can take months or even years for plans to come to fruition in eve, take a look at the goals you set yourself ingame.
And on a final note although i strongly believe pvp is what makes this game the point at which i became most emersed in this game was when i was ceo of my own corp managing 30 or so players most of them straight out of the noob corps. in eve being a ceo is very different from your average mmo guild leader. i found this was increadibly rewarding, trying to get a group of people to work together and become beter characters ingame and in the end joining an alliance and beginning to pvp as a group. It was ace. i strongly recomend that you give it a go.
I never think of the future - It comes soon enough |
Tripp Orsam
Dragonstar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:48:00 -
[23]
I dont think EVE is a grind at all, infact I think it does well to steer clear of this grinding gameplay that so many MMO games seem to fall for. Because of its offline skill training and the ease to make money I dont feel like I'm grinding at all. But of course if you want to fly faction ships and fit faction modules you can expect to pay big bucks for them and it takes time to earn that money, But HOW MANY ways is there to earn that money??
missions ratting trading pirating ore theft corp thief mining manufacturing blueprint research pop npc haulers empire industrial suicide ganking exploration (any money to be made in this?)
please feel free to add to this list anyone.
when there are so many ways to make cash and you can switch between them you cant really call it a grind. Cash is pretty much everywhere you go in eve, you just have to 'extract' it :) Having said that I dont care how lucrative mining is I will not do it becuase it feels like a grind to me, but others dont seem to think so.
----------------------------- EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:50:00 -
[24]
Some people grind level 4 missions to get iskies. And they continue to do it until they can afford faction mods for their ships and run even more missions. Thats one way to play the game.
But as many others have stated, Eve is what you make it. I dont grind for iskies unless i feel i want to reach some buffer of iskies i have set for myself. Just collecting it without having a limit can probably be enjoyable too, but its just not my personal cup of tee. Lots of people make money while offline too by buying & reselling stuff on the market.
So I dont think this game has a grind really. Maybe in the beginning, but after that, insurance takes care of most of the costs of losing ships in pvp. Modules and implants are not insurable though, which is good, because otherwise we would have WoW pvp in this game.. people just running suicide attacks without caring.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nicocat
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vanlade
I started trading with 40k ISK, and without ever leaving the station I have now over 6mil. This is by buying/selling, without any trade skills. I only spend about 5 minutes online a day.
That's not playing EVE, that's handing CCP money for nothing.
Plus, your money making needs work. *cashes out with his now-909 mil from ratting and piracy* ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass.
-Alexi
Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me! |
Cadithial
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Telaura Xi Hmm,
Rod and Ann, you both make interesting points with trading. I have not tried that yet, but mainly because I can see a lot of travel in a very slow ship involved. I suppose that means I could spend more time doing other things, but I am not really one to play a game completely afk. That being said anyone who has ever gone more than 10 jumps in a single game session can agree it is a bit mind numbing.
/kowtow
use insta's. That takes some of the grind out of travelling. Of course, if you're strictly in high sec, you can afk trade for the most part with autopilot. Does the walker choose the path or the path the walker? |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cadithial
use insta's. That takes some of the grind out of travelling. Of course, if you're strictly in high sec, you can afk trade for the most part with autopilot.
Pirates love people being afk in Jita with valuable cargo. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ijaz
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:04:00 -
[28]
Grinding - Any repetitive task that a player does in order to earn in game rewards whether they be cash, leveling, items or faction.
All MMOs have grind. Eve's is ISK to buy skills, ships, clones and equipment.
Eve's offline training is a double edged sword. It does not require you to be on to "level". However, you can never power level to catch up to your friends.
The real question that you need to answer is, "Do I like this style of game enough to keep playing or not?"
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:20:00 -
[29]
Well grinding is a subjective term and perhaps I was not truly clear with my definition of the term. I am trying not to place a connotation to it at all. Instead I am simply looking for alternatives to what I have done so far that in my mind qualify as repetitive tasks. All those I listed seem to be the rinse and repeat type of activity. With all of those activities it seems the goal outcome is the same, acquisition of ISK.
Perhaps grind is the improper term. Instead I should use a term such as ôISK treadmillö. From what I have seen one does one or more activities to both acquire new ships and modules and to cover losses. This process continues as your skills make more, better, and often more expensive ships and modules come within reach. My question then is at what point do your normal activities produce sufficient income so that you are no longer concerned about where the next amount of ISK to cover that next ship or module will come from? I am not looking for complete confort or lack of risk, but it would be nice to work toward not worrying about affording to replace that next loss that might be on the other side of that gate.
I appreciate the responses given thus far. This has given me much to ponder. I guess I need to keep looking for that niche for me in EVE. So far I have had some bad luck working in groups so I am kinda poisoned to that idea. Might be because of the groups and might be because of how EVE does some things. PvP groups seem very elitist when you haven't been in the game for long everyone wants you be be the sacrificial tackler. Corps in general seem to lean toward putting their newer players to work doing menial tasks while the veterans occationally dangle things like 0.0 over your head... but I digress...
/kowtow
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Telaura Xi My question then is at what point do your normal activities produce sufficient income so that you are no longer concerned about where the next amount of ISK to cover that next ship or module will come from?
Depends on the ships and the modules you use. If you use tech 2 gear, you can probably still replace it with a few hours of level 4 missions. Of course if you get podded and have +3 implants, you will lose about 100 mill iskies. That will take a few days of mission running to get back.
I dont know, I dont think its a big deal myself. And if you dont want to lose implants, you can use jump clones, making your podding just a free trip home.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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