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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Matalok
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2011.11.25 19:38:00 -
[61] - Quote
As someone who has done some i18n and i10n on a few apps, I tip my hat to the devs. This is no easy job and it generally gets overlooked by people. |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
1
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Posted - 2011.11.25 19:58:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Shiny wrote:roigon wrote:Someone already mentioned this, but I was wondering what CCP's views on this are.
As far as I know when an non-english client launches probes or the likes, he will launch probes with a name in their own language. This actually gives additional intel.
If I see probes in my WH that are in english, they could be my corp mates. But if I see for instance german probes, I know we have a bogey.
Now obviously this works two ways, an all german corp who for whatever reason prefer the german client will easily discern that english probes are not theirs.
Now this is far from being an issue, wouldn't even call it a issue. But I find it weird that reality differences create in-game differences on that level.
We are aware of that one and (as far as I am aware) consider it a defect, but not one that is trivial to fix. keep the translation locally? For example if some one is linking a "solar system" on a English client, the other client will get the translation on whatever language they set it on |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
102
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
Krans Hopeson wrote:I've been involved in localisation of several software projects, using C, Python and Scheme. Why is CCP re-inventing the wheel with this? gettext has supported translating messages with differing number conventions forever and a day.
Because a lot of what we say in English contains metaphor and idiom. For insance, I can say 'hit the road' in English, and someone that speaks English to a reasonable degree will probably know what I'm saying. On the other hand, if I were to say 'Hit the road' in French or Japanese, someone that's not familiar with English idiom would hear me saying that I'm going to physically assault a roadway. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
253
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
This is cool.
Might help get more players who do not speak or understand english well. |
roigon
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
0
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Krans Hopeson wrote:I've been involved in localisation of several software projects, using C, Python and Scheme. Why is CCP re-inventing the wheel with this? gettext has supported translating messages with differing number conventions forever and a day. Because a lot of what we say in English contains metaphor and idiom. For insance, I can say 'hit the road' in English, and someone that speaks English to a reasonable degree will probably know what I'm saying. On the other hand, if I were to say 'Hit the road' in French or Japanese, someone that's not familiar with English idiom would hear me saying that I'm going to physically assault a roadway.
gettext is a widely used generic solution to facilitating translation in applications. Not the translation itself obviously.
You basically use coded keyword strings in place of the text and tell gettext to translate those, then in actual translation files you have the actual translations of those keywords.
The benefit of using a pre-existing solution like gettext is that a lot of things have already been thought about and implemented, and a lot of developers and perhaps more important translators will already be familiar with the way it works and the associated syntax. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
266
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:40:00 -
[66] - Quote
Fact is that many people don't play Eve just because they're english averse, for whatever reason like education or stupid people trolling others english level.
This is an excellent idea that will certainly bring more people and this can only be good for all of us CCP/players
Now I'll most probably never go there not because of some nasty stuff but because we're better trying to comunicate all together and try to understand eatch other, improves other people like me English level of comprehension and things are far easy to improve/understand when we all talk the same language, even when we do a lot of grammar mistakes, doesn't matter, intelligent people will always understand, stupid ones you can use academic english whatsoever they will never understand anyway.
Thing is that separated groups are already there and don't like or try to comunicate with others because of langage barrier, using local clients will just bring more people witch is good but also more understanding issues between players witch is also good for destroying stuff. |
Rattus Norwegius
0
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:57:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Shiny wrote:Hi, this is about the way code handles the different alphabets living next to each other. You can find some very interesting info here.
Ooooh! Shiny! |
Peter Tjordenskiold
9
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Posted - 2011.11.25 21:55:00 -
[68] - Quote
To have a localized client is necessary, but for myself as an german player, I would never use the localized client. Many of the expressions used in game are a sort of a standart. The challenge to localize the EVE client must be funny.
Some wishes:
1) translate locally on the client. It's ugly to see probes with russian or german description in space 2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge. 3) Don't translate types. It's simply not working when it comes to work together.
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Dareth Meroul
OMRE
1
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Posted - 2011.11.25 23:16:00 -
[69] - Quote
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote:2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge.
This is a nice idea, and would go a long way towards easing the difficulties for multi-lingual corps & fleets. It kind of reminds me of the functionality in Google Chrome, where you hover over a bit of text to see it in the original language... but reversed in this example. |
Alastar Frost
EVE University Ivy League
5
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Posted - 2011.11.26 01:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ok, after the initial post, I checked the options menue and the feature isnt there, so here again:
Add a shortcut that allows to temprarily switch the language of the client. As long as you hold the key, the languge switches to your "secondary language".
For people who are not good at english, this allows to play in their native language but get translations fast if they dont know the english name of "whatever" if they want to talk about it in english chat.
For the more advanced english speakers, it allows to switch back to the native language for a moment instead of using a dictionary (dual monitors ftw).
The trick is doing this in an instand without going to the esc menue or even closing windows. just hit the buttion and the language switches. If you stop pressing it, it switches back.
I have seen this feature in other games, and i like it. And it shoudnt be too hard to do (i hope. Dont know how the localization part is implemented ) |
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Diplomatic Baggage
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.26 04:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Any chance of a Localization for English as opposed to the default of American English? |
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2011.11.26 06:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
I hope that the client language will always be optional. Personally I prefer reading eveclient in english rather than finnish despite living in Finland. |
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CCP Sisyphus
C C P C C P Alliance
6
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Posted - 2011.11.26 10:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote: Some wishes:
1) translate locally on the client. It's ugly to see probes with russian or german description in space 2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge. 3) Don't translate types. It's simply not working when it comes to work together.
Lets go through these - as a lot of others have voiced the same.
1) Translating locally - well, depends. Different parts of the game work in slightly different ways. But our goal is that you will only see text in the chosen language. So if you are using an english client, you will ONLY see english texts, similarly for other languages.
2) We actually got part way to this, but uncovered a heap (technical term there ) of exceptions that confused the issue and are complicated to fix. If we are given some time we'd like to get back to this, but no promises.
3) Right now, as we've said, we're not translating types, locations or NPCs. We're trying to work out how to deal with incomprehensible text though. -¦-+-¦-¦-+-î or Tüïsæ+ mean nothing to english speakers - just a string of shapes that might be hard to differentiate from other strings... Now think how some japanese or russian speakers might think about english text if they are not comfortable with english?
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Avensys
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
0
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Posted - 2011.11.26 10:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
German player here - I try the German client about once a year driven by some sort of morbid curiosity but I could never use it permanently.
In my opinion the German translation suffers a lot from trying to translate the terms used by the English client as directly into German as possible. More often than not the results are extremely cringeworthy.
In the 70s/80s a crazy amount of American SF novels has been translated into German and these translations are usually very readable.
German is no bad language to translate SF content into per se but to produce a reasonable translation you have to be aware of the naming conventions that have formed over the last 50 years in German SF. "Naive" translations just sound extremely uncomfortable & weird.
Sometimes I feel as if the translators responsible for the German client have no prior experience with German SF content (novels, short stories, TV productions, anything) at all and just try to translate EVE the same way they would translate a technical manual.
Please get us some translators that grew up on German Science Fiction novels and have them (re-)do the job! |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2011.11.26 11:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
My native language isn't English but it is (or should be) the world's common language. If you don't know English you are missing out on a lot of business opportunities. |
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CCP Ronin
C C P C C P Alliance
7
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Posted - 2011.11.26 19:01:00 -
[76] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:My native language isn't English but it is (or should be) the world's common language. If you don't know English you are missing out on a lot of business opportunities.
Doesn't mean you have to miss out on awesome spaceship pewpew though |
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CCP Shiny
C C P C C P Alliance
39
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Posted - 2011.11.26 19:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Avensys wrote:German player here - I try the German client about once a year driven by some sort of morbid curiosity but I could never use it permanently.
In my opinion the German translation suffers a lot from trying to translate the terms used by the English client as directly into German as possible. More often than not the results are extremely cringeworthy.
In the 70s/80s a crazy amount of American SF novels has been translated into German and these translations are usually very readable.
German is no bad language to translate SF content into per se but to produce a reasonable translation you have to be aware of the naming conventions that have formed over the last 50 years in German SF. "Naive" translations just sound extremely uncomfortable & weird.
Sometimes I feel as if the translators responsible for the German client have no prior experience with German SF content (novels, short stories, TV productions, anything) at all and just try to translate EVE the same way they would translate a technical manual.
Please get us some translators that grew up on German Science Fiction novels and have them (re-)do the job!
I would be interested in an example of a SF novel you would consider a good translation.
- CCP Shiny EVE QA/Localization |
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
93
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Posted - 2011.11.26 21:23:00 -
[78] - Quote
I don't understand much of the technical detail, but, I hope that the community is allowed to have a word in translation, because it's very likely that every community already developed its own jargon, both formal and not so formal, as for what is translated, what not, and how things are translated.
In Spanish, many technical stuff is plain adapted phonetically... so "warp" becomes "warpear", which is not orthodox and makes little baby Jesus cry,but it's a very common word, as "jamear" and "escramblear" and "webear". Many translations fail to use what words the speakers say, and so they defeat their purpose... players will not learn a new jargon and 3rd parties likely will not know what players are actualy using, orthodox or don't, so the developers spend money buying a translation nobody uses because it would force them to use unnatural words, or just learn a new jargon.
To the point: people already is speaking their language when they play EVE, let them have a word on how to make a "standard" localization. So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
lachrymus
Czerka. The Methodical Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.11.27 01:38:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Sisyphus wrote:smaster wrote:I want the imperial units for EVE online. Its not very helpfull if you have to convert every unit scale in the game in feet and pounds. At least u have included a ingame calculator. THANK YOU no. just no. feet/sec for velocity, mass in pounds/tons.. (need a brain asplode smiley) This.
The rest of the world uses metric. Learn it. |
Naso Gomez
Astral Edge
15
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Posted - 2011.11.27 02:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
Today I learned, the Japanese language doesn't have plurals |
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mkint
388
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Posted - 2011.11.27 04:40:00 -
[81] - Quote
English speaker here have only been involved with international corps.
What if there were varying levels of localization? A lite translation would have only info tabs translated but attributes and commands would be in English. This would mean those users would recognize jump commands when the fc calls it. They would be able to discuss things like tracking issues that mostly happens on attributes tabs. A japenese lite version might use Japanese characters to spell the English pronunciation. Include a full translation option but the lite version would help with full language integration. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
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Posted - 2011.11.27 05:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
Naso Gomez wrote:Today I learned, the Japanese language doesn't have plurals
OK, well, now you can learn that it does, sort of....
For example, consider person: S¦¦ (hito) And now, let's consider people: S¦¦pÇà (hitobito -- the second character means to repeat the first, and the consonant part of the sound shifts from "h" to "b"0.
Got it? No, you don't!
Consider man: tö+ (otoko) Consider men: tö+püƒpüí (otokotachi)
Sometimes, "-tachi" is added to indicate plurals.
But usually, it's just left to context.
And sometimes, you just count: S+ÇsÇï (ikko)pÇüS¦îsÇï (niko)pÇüS+ësÇï (sanko) or, hmm, S+Çpüñ (hitotsu)pÇüS¦îpüñ (futatsu)pÇüS+ëpüñ (mitsu) or S+ǵPÜ (ichimai)pÇüS¦îµPÜ (nimai)pÇüS+ëµPÜ (sanmai) or S+ÇS¦¦(hitori),S¦îS¦¦ (futari)pÇüS+ëS¦¦ (sannin) or S+ǵ£¼ (ippon), S¦îµ£¼ (nihon)pÇüS+ëµ£¼ (sanbon -- there's that shift from "h" to "b' again) or, well, I really don't know how many ways there are to count in Japanese. I've never counted.
The thing is, in any one context, only one of these will be right. For example, long thin things, like, for example, pencils, will be counted like S+ǵ£¼,S¦îµ£¼pÇüS+ëµ£¼.
Weird, eh? But you want to know what's MORE weird?
Try coming up with a rule for what preposition to use when, in English. And when to use a direct or indirect object. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
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Posted - 2011.11.27 05:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
mkint wrote:English speaker here have only been involved with international corps.
What if there were varying levels of localization? A lite translation would have only info tabs translated but attributes and commands would be in English. This would mean those users would recognize jump commands when the fc calls it. They would be able to discuss things like tracking issues that mostly happens on attributes tabs. A japenese lite version might use Japanese characters to spell the English pronunciation. Include a full translation option but the lite version would help with full language integration.
That's a germ of an interesting idea, I think.
Rather than a "lite" mode, I'd suggest a "fleet" mode, that would use the English terms (or perhaps a selectable language) , but have the mouse-over show the native language.
If the FC is speaking English, I'm not sure it would really be helpful to have the "english pronunciation" in Japanese characters. Japanese, being such a strongly syllabic language, really rather mangles the English when you try to force English into it. Any sequence of consonants generally turns into a whole series of syllables, and a lot of information is lost due to the limited selection of consonant sounds to begin with.
There are a grand total of 50 basic syllables, plus 20 hybrids, in the entire language. That's it.
So what works with German or Russian may not work so well with Japanese. I don't have any modern data, but I strongly expect that the typical Japanese Eve player would be quite comfortable with roman letters (romaji) for English terms. You'll find them everywhere from technical literature to advertising. Typically, they only get converted to katakana when they start to become integrated into the language. For example, pé+péºpéó for "share". |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
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Posted - 2011.11.27 06:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
GateScout wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Quote:pronunciation (in Japanese, used for sorting) WTF do you mean by 'sorting'? I have never come across that term when it comes to Japanese grammar. I had a long post about this, but the forums just ate it. Go to goggle and search for this: "Sorting in Japanese GÇö An Unsolved Problem" Read that blog post and you'll understand. If you're really interested in this topic, continue reading: http://www.localizingjapan.com
That's an interesting blog post, but I take a bit of issue with "unsolved problem". A better characterization would be "a problem without a commonly-agreed upon solution".
There is a very clear and distinct sorting order used in Japanese dictionaries. Well, there's more than one variation of it, but it's something that Japanese kids learn growing up.
Rather than describe it at length, let me point out that the key point in dictionary ordering is that it is NOT based on pronunciation for the Kanji ideographs. (It is, for kana). Rather, it is based on a key structural portion of each character, and stroke count.
In fact, sorting international text is a pretty-well understood problem. That doesn't mean well agreed-upon -- but there IS a standard framework: the Unicode 6.0 standard. http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
The key is that you don't sort on character codes, either. and the exact desired collation order will depend on locale.
If you read that above link, you'll see you don't even sort on any simple mapping of character codes, but rather on "collation units". That's because other languages have things like accent marks (of varying language-specific impact on sorting and character identity) and combining forms, etc.
The bottom line is, while we may not have universal agreement on any particular collation sequence, sorting to a desired collation sequence IS a solved problem, and we pretty much understand where the disagreements lie.
We humans have evolved an amazing variety of ways of recording our thoughts on paper. And sorting is so important, that even when we tens of thousands of characters, we find ways to sort them. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
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Posted - 2011.11.27 06:16:00 -
[85] - Quote
And finally -- the reason I visited this thread in the first place:
CCP Shiny and crew: Congratulations on diving into an endlessly complex and challenging problem.
It looks to me like you're pushing this a bit further than usual, from just "localized text", just a bit into the territory of "natural language generation".
For the people wondering why not just use gettext -- gettext is pretty limited. It's good enough for what it's intended for, but when you start trying to compose complex explanations, that starts to break down.
CCP deserves credit for trying to push things a bit further toward true internationalization.
Whether it was worth the effort or not -- aye, that's always the rub. You always find internationalization to be harder than you think it will be going in. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
94
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Posted - 2011.11.27 11:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:(lenghty expxalnation, several posts long, about the intricacies of Japanese language
This is why they signed an agreement with a giant Korean corporation (NEXON) to market EVE Online to Japanese customers in Japanese...
Translating is a very complex issue because every language represents a mindset: FAI, what things do have a name and what things do not have a name...
A quick instance: in English there is that word, "tonight", which does not translate into Spanish (the closest is "esta noche", which can be either last night or tonight), whereas in Spanish there is another word, "anoche", which does not translate to English as it means "last night".
So in English the upcoming night has got a name but not the last night, whereas in Spanish the last night has got a name but the upcoming one doesn't... and we're talking about languages geographically and culturally close.
I kinda wonder what concepts that we meet in EVE are actually Icelandic words (a part of Icelandic mindset, like "dry shark is yummy") roughly adapted into a different mindset (English)... So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
508
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Posted - 2011.11.27 16:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
GateScout wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Quote:pronunciation (in Japanese, used for sorting) WTF do you mean by 'sorting'? I have never come across that term when it comes to Japanese grammar. I had a long post about this, but the forums just ate it. Go to goggle and search for this: "Sorting in Japanese GÇö An Unsolved Problem" Read that blog post and you'll understand. If you're really interested in this topic, continue reading: http://www.localizingjapan.com Actually I know perfectly well about Japanese character encoding and lexical sorting, as both a coder and a Japanese speaker.
What threw me off was the use of 'pronunciation', when the more commonly used term is 'reading' of a kanji or compound. The two main types of readings of a kanji character are called onyomi and kunyomi (-yomi means reading), native reading and sino-japanese reading. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
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