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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 10:22:29 -
[1] - Quote
I'm happy that CCP feels confident to do big changes to the game. With the clone grade removal, they will probably get more of the older chars back into small-scale PvP. But there is still one obstacle separating non-combat activities from engaging in fights with the barrier of jump clone cooldown, the learning implants. Just the other day a fellow fleet mate bailed when he recognizes the roam we just started will go to null sec, because he was in the learning clone. I'm spending more time in my PvP clones as in the learning clone with the result of much slower skill training. Remember, skills are the most valuable good in EvE, they are paid with your lifetime. This is also a typical problem younger chars/players suffer from, if they are willing to honor the sandbox. Of course you always could cash in real money to flood your wallet with ISK, so you don't need to care about expenses and losses anymore ... and probably also the fun.
Be bold CCP, remove them from the game. Here is my proposal:
- remove learning implants from game, refund prints, existing stock, and those in your clones' heads - remove attribute enhancements from all functional implants - add +4 to each attribute, can be tweaked to get faster training in general which would be a good idea on its own - give a free remap every 180 days or less, one year is too long, nobody plans that far training only one type of skills
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Fonton
True Horde Smile 'n' Wave
18
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Posted - 2014.11.30 10:28:15 -
[2] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&search=remove+learning+implants
Change from 1 remap/year to 1 point remap/month. |
Xercodo
Vector Galactic Did he say Jump
3886
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Posted - 2014.11.30 10:28:33 -
[3] - Quote
- Learning implants actually provide a meaningful decision to be made, unlike the old clone system: Spend more ISK to train faster, but live with the risk of losing that ISK being podded or losing the ISK when you have to unplug the implant to replace it. - Remaps should be left alone, people DO plan that far ahead, and if you don't that's your problem. Generalizations like "everyone" and "no one" are usually a no-no when it comes to justifying a change, especially when there's a lack of available data to substantiate that.
At the same time there already exists a path to mitigate implant loss, and that's jump clones. Just jump to an empty clone for however long you're gonna go shooting things.
The Drake is a Lie
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2014.11.30 10:42:41 -
[4] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:- Learning implants actually provide a meaningful decision to be made, unlike the old clone system: Spend more ISK to train faster, but live with the risk of losing that ISK being podded or losing the ISK when you have to unplug the implant to replace it. - Remaps should be left alone, people DO plan that far ahead, and if you don't that's your problem. Generalizations like "everyone" and "no one" are usually a no-no when it comes to justifying a change, especially when there's a lack of available data to substantiate that.
At the same time there already exists a path to mitigate implant loss, and that's jump clones. Just jump to an empty clone for however long you're gonna go shooting things. Thanks for the feedback, I tweaked my wording in that regard. You can plan ahead, but with a mixed skill plan it's much less gain from remaps, there is rather some compromise remap you keep all the time, imo of course. The problem with the jump clones comes with the cooldown, somebody doing a lot of PvP will have difficulties to find the right time for learning. In my opinion it's an unnecessary obstacle to hinder you playing when and how you want (the implants not the cooldown).
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3123
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Posted - 2014.11.30 10:53:33 -
[5] - Quote
Yet it looks meaningful to me. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
544
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Posted - 2014.11.30 12:13:46 -
[6] - Quote
Xercodo wrote:- Learning implants actually provide a meaningful decision to be made, unlike the old clone system: Spend more ISK to train faster, but live with the risk of losing that ISK being podded or losing the ISK when you have to unplug the implant to replace it. - Remaps should be left alone, people DO plan that far ahead, and if you don't that's your problem. Generalizations like "everyone" and "no one" are usually a no-no when it comes to justifying a change, especially when there's a lack of available data to substantiate that.
At the same time there already exists a path to mitigate implant loss, and that's jump clones. Just jump to an empty clone for however long you're gonna go shooting things.
They would present a meaningful choice of the odds of pod loss were not "Are there bubbles yes/no?" |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
544
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Posted - 2014.11.30 12:25:17 -
[7] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Yet it looks meaningful to me.
this.
In time you hope a player realizes the roams in 2 +3's (for the skills training atm) will work out in the end. If done right, its the hard skills on the roam/op that will serve them much better in the long run.
Rest of this.....couple issues.
They are assuming +4's are common. I like many who mixed in pvp ran +3's for years and we all got to where we were wanting to be in time. But ccp could run some data analysis here to prove me wrong, or right lol. Based on the market caching blog they use R now...couple table reads, some basic means analysis for starters....there ya go. R has great functions for this stock or pulled off CRAN repos. They use ggplot2....they can make pretty graphs to for a blog if motivated.
the way set implants are jacked up in this is rather unsettling as well. For many of them it be the +3 or +4 that are a part of their price value. Some like sensor strength for example have been gimped over the years. First they took away unprobable. Then in the case of my talons they took away sig bloom hits on t2 ammo (a reason why I bought HG's long ago, they countered fury bloom). Then they gave the sensor skills. Overtime...these basically got hit hard. +4 for HG talons is one of their few remaining nice things (which we only got recently....my hg talons are were ran the legacy +3 boost for years tbh).
Tl;dr....if looking to rip out half of there bene's it be on op to give them something in the exchange. That doesn't break the game. My talons with a bit more strength could bring back unprobable maybe. In the case of say snakes, if memory servers they were nerfed long ago to not have you so fast. Those more bitter than my 6 years can correct if wrong ofc. But if snakes lost the +x's....stands to reason they get speed boosts as a consolation prize. The speed they lost since borderline if not overt op iirc. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
800
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Posted - 2014.11.30 12:25:46 -
[8] - Quote
No for all the reasons given before inumerable times... |
Lugh Crow-Slave
244
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Posted - 2014.11.30 12:33:45 -
[9] - Quote
no risk = reward and to be honest as said all the other times this post pops up buying 2 +4 implants don't cost a lot and outside of a smart bomb or bubble you shouldn't be losing your pod anyway
as for the remap no because the remap system forces you to spec in one direction. there are more then a year of skills if you set your attributes up and plan ahead |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
544
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Posted - 2014.11.30 14:02:15 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:no risk = reward and to be honest as said all the other times this post pops up buying 2 +4 implants don't cost a lot and outside of a smart bomb or bubble you shouldn't be losing your pod anyway
as for the remap no because the remap system forces you to spec in one direction. there are more then a year of skills if you set your attributes up and plan ahead
evemon says hi.
You can put in mix of skills for a year to get a good point mapping in it. Mine is an odd mix of int and perc atm. As my year plan goes all over a bit. Will this train have int/mem (very common focused train setup it seems...I used to be all in myself in the early years) slower? A bit. But evemon showed me how a few more points in perc and not mem boosting had it come out in the wash at the end. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2014.11.30 19:49:15 -
[11] - Quote
Some comments.
Why does functional implants give attribute boosts? There is no correlation and no apparent reason except ... CCP does not want players to choose whether to be better in some special profession or learning faster. Same rules for everyone, let's force the choice, what do you think?
+4s are cheap, yeah but still double the price of a T1 Cruiser or T2 frig, and you know, bubbles are very common in nullsec, especially your chances are bad traveling successfully 20 jumps back to low/highsec in a pod. Why do you think a lot of people in nullsec play with empty pods? There are always people who don't care, but what you learn and adopt quickly is the wide-spread obsession about ISK efficiency and green killboards in EvE online....
Attribute mapping, there are basically two kinds of skills which require distinct attribute combination. Combat skills are the one and support/non-combat skills are the other. There is a third (social) but high levels are more a niche thing at the beginning. As a new player you need skills from both categories, so you end up with an "optimal" remap for your skill plan as mentioned in the last post with mediocre but OK average speed ... do you see the point? With shorter remap cycles you actually get a choice to train one category and optimize for it and switching to another (after some basic training on the mixed remap). But being allowed to remap only once a year (regularly and non-cumulative) this does not work imo.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2013
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Posted - 2014.11.30 20:10:12 -
[12] - Quote
Regarding implants:
Relevent
My reply
regarding remaps: nope
Quote:give a free remap every 180 days or less, one year is too long in my opinion to plan for training only one type of skills
see what youve done here is think then when you remap you HAVE to remap for only one type of skill.
you can in fact remap for any number of types of training simultaneously. you just have to make a meaningful choice as to whether you want lots of different types of skills or if you want to specialise and train faster.
Quote: This is also a typical problem younger chars/players suffer from
remove the SP/hour mentality from your new players and teach them how to remap responsibly. The real problem new players suffer from is putting too much value on SP/hour, trying to specialise too early and buying expensive implants they cant afford to lose.
p.s. pod the guy that wont play because hes in a 'learner' clone. You'll be doing him a favour.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Iain Cariaba
662
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Posted - 2014.11.30 20:31:59 -
[13] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Some comments.
Why does functional implants give attribute boosts? There is no correlation and no apparent reason except ... CCP does not want players to choose whether to be better in some special profession or learning faster. Same rules for everyone, let's force the choice, what do you think?
+4s are cheap, yeah but still double the price of a T1 Cruiser or T2 frig, and you know, bubbles are very common in nullsec, especially your chances are bad traveling successfully 20 jumps back to low/highsec in a pod. Why do you think a lot of people in nullsec play with empty pods? There are always people who don't care, but what you learn and adopt quickly is the wide-spread obsession about ISK efficiency and green killboards in EvE online....
Attribute mapping, there are basically two kinds of skills which require distinct attribute combination. Combat skills are the one and support/non-combat skills are the other. There is a third (social) but high levels are more a niche thing at the beginning. As a new player you need skills from both categories, so you end up with an "optimal" remap for your skill plan as mentioned in the last post with mediocre but OK average speed ... do you see the point? With shorter remap cycles you actually get a choice to train one category and optimize for it and switching to another (after some basic training on the mixed remap). But being allowed to remap only once a year (regularly and non-cumulative) this does not work imo. 1. It's relatively easy to make the cost of a pair of +4s in an hour or two by running level 3 missions, if you know what you're doing. 2. Yes, bubbles are rather common in nullsec. However, most bubbles are ridiculously easy to avoid, if you know what you're doing. 3. There is no point 3. 4. If your Corp gets all butthurt over isk efficiency and killboard whoring, and you don't want to play like that, you should probably look into finding a Corp that doesn't give a rat's ass about that. EvE is a game. If you're not having fun, something is wrong, and you need to figure out what that is, and what it'll take to fix it. (Note: removing learning implants is not the answer.) 5. Yes, new players need both combat and non-combat skills. Keep in mind that most of your noob essential skills are low multiplier, so even with a remap that's completely wrong for those skills, it really doesn't take that much extra time to train them. An extra day, usually less, of extra train time for a lvl 5 skill isn't that bad. Besides, iirc new players start the game with 3 free remaps. Provided you get some basic information, and don't waste them, that is enough for new players who expend the effort to plan ahead a pretty good advantage without implants.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2014.11.30 22:27:43 -
[14] - Quote
I read a lot of arguments why the current solution works, how the drawbacks can be mitigated, and that you better don't care. Yes, you can optimize yourself in that system if you know the mechanics very well. This optimization imo is a nice challenge in the beginning but does not create progressive* game play in the long run (it reduces content) or is not strong enough in case of remaps.
So what are the reasons to keep the current system? What advantages has it compared to the proposed change?
* in one point you are right, it is meaningful in the sense that your choice matters. So there are people who willingly do not optimize (in contrast to the clone upgrade mechanic), but I think those are not the majority. CCP has a track record of also breaking up things which become de-facto standards how to do.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Sigras
Conglomo
981
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Posted - 2014.11.30 23:50:17 -
[15] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Some comments.
Why does functional implants give attribute boosts? There is no correlation and no apparent reason except ... CCP does not want players to choose whether to be better in some special profession or learning faster. Same rules for everyone, let's force the choice, what do you think?
+4s are cheap, yeah but still double the price of a T1 Cruiser or T2 frig, and you know, bubbles are very common in nullsec, especially your chances are bad traveling successfully 20 jumps back to low/highsec in a pod. Why do you think a lot of people in nullsec play with empty pods? There are always people who don't care, but what you learn and adopt quickly is the wide-spread obsession about ISK efficiency and green killboards in EvE online.... #1 anyone who cares at all about their ISK efficiency on the killboards is a moron #2 you only need 2 of the implants to effect any skill you're currently training... anyone who has a full set of +4s is either an idiot or has had that clone for a LONG time. #3 The whole point of the system is that you have to choose what is best for you. The very fact that we're arguing about this means that there isnt one clear best choice which in and of itself makes the decision meaningful and therefore interesting.
Tipa Riot wrote:Attribute mapping, there are basically two kinds of skills which require distinct attribute combination. Combat skills are the one and support/non-combat skills are the other. There is a third (social) but high levels are more a niche thing at the beginning. As a new player you need skills from both categories, so you end up with an "optimal" remap for your skill plan as mentioned in the last post with mediocre but OK average speed ... do you see the point? With shorter remap cycles you actually get a choice to train one category and optimize for it and switching to another (after some basic training on the mixed remap). But being allowed to remap only once a year (regularly and non-cumulative) this does not work imo. Have you played the NPE since they introduced attribute remapping? They provide new players with 1 or 2 bonus remaps which come free of charge in order to mitigate the exact issue you're talking about...
If you are not a new player and are still having problems with planning ahead I have less sympathy for you... This is a game that rewards forethought and planning ahead, and that's the way uh huh uh huh I like it. |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
218
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Posted - 2014.11.30 23:53:34 -
[16] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:I'm happy that CCP feels confident to do big changes to the game. With the clone grade removal, they will probably get more of the older chars back into small-scale PvP. But there is still one obstacle separating non-combat activities from engaging in fights with the barrier of jump clone cooldown, the learning implants. Just the other day a fellow fleet mate bailed when he recognizes the roam we just started will go to null sec, because he was in the learning clone. I'm spending more time in my PvP clones as in the learning clone with the result of much slower skill training. Remember, skills are the most valuable good in EvE, they are paid with your lifetime, hence there is a strong motivation get the maximum from you "money". This is also a typical problem younger chars/players suffer from, if they are willing to honor the sandbox. Of course you always could cash in real money to flood your wallet with ISK, so you don't need to care about expenses and losses anymore ... and probably also the fun.
Be bold CCP, remove them from the game. Here is my proposal:
- remove learning implants from game, refund prints, existing stock, and those in your clones' heads - remove attribute enhancements from all functional implants - add +4 to each attribute, can be tweaked to get faster training in general which would be a good idea on its own - give a free remap every 180 days or less, one year is too long in my opinion to plan for training only one type of skills
You take your risks and gain your rewards accordingly.
Your friend is spineless and too risk averse to be useful to you.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:17:06 -
[17] - Quote
Rocking the same set of +5's since late 09, and I didn't leave null untill over a year later. I've never had anything but learning implants in slots 1-5, and I don't do anything but PvP.
I was about to say something negative about your friend, then thought about it; deciding I love those types. They're always super eager to pay my ransom.
On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy of everyone drops to zero.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2014.12.01 14:54:30 -
[18] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Your friend is spineless and too risk averse to be useful to you.
I disagree with that, he is rather doing what you all propose, using the game mechanics as presented ... to not become the idiot being killed in a shiny "carebear" pod. I killed enough expensive pods in fleet fights to know this is a topic .... and to be called risk averse and spineless from a forums alt is not that relevant.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3131
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:11:26 -
[19] - Quote
I am, I will admit, very bad at sticking to a skill plan and may oftentimes veer off unpredictably from one skill into something totally unrelated and then back again.
To deal with this, I once spent an hour or two analyzing all the skills in the entire game that I'd ever have any interest in training, charting which attributes they used and prioritizing where my attributes should be in relation to that.
The end result of all that work is a very balanced remap that I haven't changed in years and don't particularly need to. Ever.
I also have multiple clones with multiple implant sets that are designated for different areas and/or activities. Implants aren't a problem and the training time between +3s and +5s isn't really so enormous, especially when those +3s are giving you combat bonuses. Personally, I prefer roaming around in my 3s and only use my 5s when I'm not going to be logging in that often. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1774
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:15:21 -
[20] - Quote
Except there is no real penalty for not using implants. So, not in the same lines as clone removal. There's actuwl gamepkay decisions involved. |
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
290
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:19:51 -
[21] - Quote
lol @ learning clones :D
OP what are you smoking
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:37:05 -
[22] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I am, I will admit, very bad at sticking to a skill plan and may oftentimes veer off unpredictably from one skill into something totally unrelated and then back again.
To deal with this, I once spent an hour or two analyzing all the skills in the entire game that I'd ever have any interest in training, charting which attributes they used and prioritizing where my attributes should be in relation to that.
The end result of all that work is a very balanced remap that I haven't changed in years and don't particularly need to. Ever.
I also have multiple clones with multiple implant sets that are designated for different areas and/or activities. Implants aren't a problem and the training time between +3s and +5s isn't really so enormous, especially when those +3s are giving you combat bonuses. Personally, I prefer roaming around in my 3s and only use my 5s when I'm not going to be logging in that often. The approach sounds familiar. ... but this makes learning implants and remaps rather useless except for niche optimizations, right?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
802
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:51:17 -
[23] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:...sensible blurb.... The approach sounds familiar. ... but this makes learning implants and remaps rather useless except for niche optimizations, right?
On the contrary it makes them very useful if you put the effort in to use them correctly and also are happy to risk the isk investment for best return. so Effort = Reward and Risk = Reward...works perfectly well as is :) |
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