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Extractor Bill
Togenada Heavy Industries
2
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Posted - 2015.03.17 15:34:41 -
[1] - Quote
Good Afternoon,
I just wanted to start a discussion slightly different than those on the topic of High-Sec bumping.
I feel bumping should be a legitimate tactic for EVE and has the potential to be a good conflict driver.
However I would argue it must be changed from it's current form.
Right now, if somebody is piloting a freighter in high sec, you can bump them infinitely so long as you land the first bump. You can have the target trapped in that location, no matter how much they try to escape. You cannot even log off your character as the safe warp mechanic requires a proper align to operate.
The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
As it stands, there is nothing you can do about it. Calling friends, has a negligible effect because CONCORD still protects the bumper from any hostile actions. In fact, the bumper will generally be equipped in such a way that they have maximum mass for the best impact possible, which also makes them rather difficult to kill before CONCORD murders your group.
Different pilot tactics still do not work, including finding multiple warp points (using friends) to give you a location that better suites your alignment after being bumped. The freighter is too slow to align and gives the bumper plenty of time to set you off course again.
Counterplay is badly needed in this area. A way that allows for this tactic to work, but allows for a reasonable defense.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2032
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Posted - 2015.03.17 15:58:15 -
[2] - Quote
Extractor Bill wrote:Good Afternoon,
I just wanted to start a discussion slightly different than those on the topic of High-Sec bumping.
I feel bumping should be a legitimate tactic for EVE and has the potential to be a good conflict driver.
However I would argue it must be changed from it's current form.
Right now, if somebody is piloting a freighter in high sec, you can bump them infinitely so long as you land the first bump. You can have the target trapped in that location, no matter how much they try to escape. You cannot even log off your character as the safe warp mechanic requires a proper align to operate.
The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
As it stands, there is nothing you can do about it. Calling friends, has a negligible effect because CONCORD still protects the bumper from any hostile actions. In fact, the bumper will generally be equipped in such a way that they have maximum mass for the best impact possible, which also makes them rather difficult to kill before CONCORD murders your group.
Different pilot tactics still do not work, including finding multiple warp points (using friends) to give you a location that better suites your alignment after being bumped. The freighter is too slow to align and gives the bumper plenty of time to set you off course again.
Counterplay is badly needed in this area. A way that allows for this tactic to work, but allows for a reasonable defense.
Counterplay could be to scout your route and see if CODE or other bumping ships are operating in system, before jumping your freighter into Uedama in the first place. Or, training-for and buying a jump-freighter, that you can then jump out to an alt-cyno in losec the moment you do start getting bumped...
You know, like make counterplay actions that you take personally, rather than mechanics changes and stuff....
Would you like to know more?
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1846
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Posted - 2015.03.17 16:47:07 -
[3] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Extractor Bill wrote:Good Afternoon,
I just wanted to start a discussion slightly different than those on the topic of High-Sec bumping.
I feel bumping should be a legitimate tactic for EVE and has the potential to be a good conflict driver.
However I would argue it must be changed from it's current form.
Right now, if somebody is piloting a freighter in high sec, you can bump them infinitely so long as you land the first bump. You can have the target trapped in that location, no matter how much they try to escape. You cannot even log off your character as the safe warp mechanic requires a proper align to operate.
The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
As it stands, there is nothing you can do about it. Calling friends, has a negligible effect because CONCORD still protects the bumper from any hostile actions. In fact, the bumper will generally be equipped in such a way that they have maximum mass for the best impact possible, which also makes them rather difficult to kill before CONCORD murders your group.
Different pilot tactics still do not work, including finding multiple warp points (using friends) to give you a location that better suites your alignment after being bumped. The freighter is too slow to align and gives the bumper plenty of time to set you off course again.
Counterplay is badly needed in this area. A way that allows for this tactic to work, but allows for a reasonable defense.
Counterplay could be to scout your route and see if CODE or other bumping ships are operating in system, before jumping your freighter into Uedama in the first place. Or, training-for and buying a jump-freighter, that you can then jump out to an alt-cyno in losec the moment you do start getting bumped... You know, like make counterplay actions that you take personally, rather than mechanics changes and stuff.... jump freighter only works 1 way
and asking for people to hire scouts/escorts just kills the profession, since the only way to make money with freighters as it is is accepting extremely low contracts, or hauling billions upon billions in modules yourself (in which case your ganked anyways because no freighter should haul that much)
and do not even SAY alts, alts should NEVER be mentioned in a "balance" discussion, nothing should be designed assuming youll use more than 1 accounts yourself
what your basically saying is if put my car in the center of the road and keep driving back and forth so you cant go around me, its your fault for not paying your buddy to go and check to see if i was in the road ahead of you |
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
101
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Posted - 2015.03.17 17:23:11 -
[4] - Quote
GM Response On Bumping Or course, that thread is at 34 pages of rather unconstructive comments. I don't blame you for wanting to start fresh.
I've thought about this a great deal. The usual suggestions about instigators gaining a suspect or criminal flag wouldn't work because of how easily it could be gamed. And most ideas to allow the victim to wriggle away get shot down for how they would break some nulsec or w-space tactic.
The only other thing I can think of is for CONCORD to step in with some kind of soft anti-gravity blast to break-up the clusterf***. Perhaps after three or more collisions between a single ship that is trying to initiate warp and one or more ships that aren't a CONCORD ship spawns and fires their anti-grav thingy to scatter the involved ships over a 100km area. The effect on Jita undock would be hilarious. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2803
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Posted - 2015.03.17 17:24:12 -
[5] - Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong...
But even if your ships can't align and warp out after you log.... don't you magically disappear after a few mins with no LE timer?
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
935
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 17:34:31 -
[6] - Quote
Colette Kassia wrote:GM Response On BumpingOr course, that thread is at 34 pages of rather unconstructive comments. I don't blame you for wanting to start fresh. I've thought about this a great deal. The usual suggestions about instigators gaining a suspect or criminal flag wouldn't work because of how easily it could be gamed. And most ideas to allow the victim to wriggle away get shot down for how they would break some nulsec or w-space tactic. The only other thing I can think of is for CONCORD to step in with some kind of soft anti-gravity blast to break-up the clusterf***. Perhaps after three or more collisions between a single ship that is trying to initiate warp and one or more ships that aren't a CONCORD ship spawns and fires their anti-grav thingy to scatter the involved ships over a 100km area. The effect on Jita undock would be hilarious.
I always wondered how you can 'make an effort to move on' when you're poverty tackled.....
I also enjoy the mental gymnastics by people defending the ability to deprive people control of their ship with no manner of flagging at all. Still, they're probably all still under their beds hiding from the interceptors. |
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
14
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:04:47 -
[7] - Quote
Tracking the number of bumps each ship receives would kill the servers, pointing that out now. And if you wanted to add a mechanism that allowed the freighter a chance to escape there are less sever intensive and exploitable way to go about it than a magic gravity gun that bouncing everyone 100km apart as well.
Example: Player trying to initiate warp reaching ~200km off gate (or the 250km grid edge) will be locked by new gate module which grants a similar bonus similar to the undock where you cannot be bumped, however are still able to be fired upon. This now gives the attacking fleet a timer, they must now kill it before it slows down and obtains a proper align of they will miss their target.
It does not kill the bumping tactic to avoid warp disruption aggression, but adds an upper bound to how long/far they can do it, and forces them to stay on grid with gate guns as intended. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2034
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:13:03 -
[8] - Quote
Read more. Whine less.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2339
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:14:18 -
[9] - Quote
Theres also no counter play when 20 enyos land at zero on my retriever when i try to mine in null. CCP please fix this as well.
You have no right to get to jita and sell your goods. You chose to take the risk of traveling through gank systems rather than selling at a closer market. you chose not to use a scout or an alt webber.
The idea is to not get caught in the first place, and there is plenty of counter play for that.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
206
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:15:18 -
[10] - Quote
OP
Weeks ago I went through Uedama in a freighter (alt). I was bumped relentlessly and logged off. I was empty and not aggresed. My ship E-warped away.
Logged back on moments later to find the bumper attacking someone else and paying me no mind. I went about my way.
This is perhaps anecdotal, but the next time it happens to me I will log off.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions.
Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character.
And character is everything. - author unknown
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
247
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:20:29 -
[11] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong...
But even if your ships can't align and warp out after you log.... don't you magically disappear after a few mins with no LE timer?
No I watched a freighter bumped for over an hour in Jita, the pilot has long been logged off thinking the same thing. I have a copy of her empty freighter killmail on my note pad.
Scouts don't work as the bumpers are usually and alt and range from things like stabbers to machs, shoot im no ganker or bumper but I have rammed a few freighters out of boredom in my Vindicator.
the only counter to it is to have someone else bump you elsewhere towards a warp point, I did that in jita and saved a freighter......then the freighter warped right back to station and started getting bumped again.
Ive watched a freighter get bumped warp in an osprey fleet to shield rep him against the gankers, the gankers killed the osprey, and after their global cool downs, gank the freighter.
For some stupid reason CCP says bumping someone for 1-2+ hrs its ligit game play, you tell another player about the physics of them fapping in their pod and you have a GM contacting you for being reported.
CCP need to start with ligit day 0 characters with the perception that they know nothing of their own game, no powers, no super ships and play their own game and see whats its like.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2341
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:44:44 -
[12] - Quote
Agondray wrote:
Scouts don't work as the bumpers are usually and alt and range from things like stabbers to machs, shoot im no ganker or bumper but I have rammed a few freighters out of boredom in my Vindicator.
Your scout cannot check grid and d-scan to see if you have the literal 4 seconds to put your frieghter into warp?
You need to slap that scout. seriously.
Agondray wrote: CCP need to start with ligit day 0 characters with the perception that they know nothing of their own game, no powers, no super ships and play their own game and see whats its like.
Falcon did this.
Still waiting for my +1's because CCP need to create counter play to get my bowhead through bubble camps. have you tried it? its freaking impossible.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement
163
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:56:30 -
[13] - Quote
Insta warp using dual webs. REALLY hard to land a bump before you warp off. Also fly triple bulkheads and don't overload. If you blow up with more than a few billion no one will have any sympathy.
As to the criticism of having a scout, if you don't have friends, have alts, they've more reliable, more trustworthy, and you don't have to pay them! |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
701
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:57:42 -
[14] - Quote
Extractor Bill wrote: The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
There are plenty of ways to avoid bumping by scouting/bringing friends. As CCP Falcon pointed out, you are responsible for the safety of your freighter in this game - that is in fact pretty much the game for haulers. A webbing escort will have you safely through anything but the most dedicated gatecamp 99-times-out-of-a-100.
Don't have friends? Well thankfully those vulnerable capital-class ships are not the only way to move your goods in highsec. CCP has put a whole range of other transport ships in the game that are, or can be made, immune to bumping. You do not have to use an AFK freighter to move everything in highsec.
Making freighters immune to bumping will make the rest of the industrial ships even more unnecessary.
-1
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2511
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:09:07 -
[15] - Quote
Extractor Bill wrote:I just wanted to start a discussion slightly different than those on the topic of High-Sec bumping.
That may have been your intention, but the reality is that you've brought nothing different to the table. You have, however, managed to post horribly inaccurate comments, such as:
Quote:As it stands, there is nothing you can do about it. Calling friends, has a negligible effect because CONCORD still protects the bumper from any hostile actions. In fact, the bumper will generally be equipped in such a way that they have maximum mass for the best impact possible, which also makes them rather difficult to kill before CONCORD murders your group.
Might I suggest you go forth and acquire knowledge of a subject before starting a redundant thread where you highlight your ignorance?
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12164
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:19:15 -
[16] - Quote
Extractor Bill wrote:You can have the target trapped in that location, no matter how much they try to escape.
Wrong.
Quote: You cannot even log off your character as the safe warp mechanic requires a proper align to operate.
That's actually really funny, because the logoff mechanic was changed precisely to prevent people from escaping from this sort of thing.
Also, reported for lack of content. You're not suggesting anything, you're just complaining that bumping exists.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2631
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 22:30:21 -
[17] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Extractor Bill wrote:Good Afternoon,
I just wanted to start a discussion slightly different than those on the topic of High-Sec bumping.
I feel bumping should be a legitimate tactic for EVE and has the potential to be a good conflict driver.
However I would argue it must be changed from it's current form.
Right now, if somebody is piloting a freighter in high sec, you can bump them infinitely so long as you land the first bump. You can have the target trapped in that location, no matter how much they try to escape. You cannot even log off your character as the safe warp mechanic requires a proper align to operate.
The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
As it stands, there is nothing you can do about it. Calling friends, has a negligible effect because CONCORD still protects the bumper from any hostile actions. In fact, the bumper will generally be equipped in such a way that they have maximum mass for the best impact possible, which also makes them rather difficult to kill before CONCORD murders your group.
Different pilot tactics still do not work, including finding multiple warp points (using friends) to give you a location that better suites your alignment after being bumped. The freighter is too slow to align and gives the bumper plenty of time to set you off course again.
Counterplay is badly needed in this area. A way that allows for this tactic to work, but allows for a reasonable defense.
Counterplay could be to scout your route and see if CODE or other bumping ships are operating in system, before jumping your freighter into Uedama in the first place. Or, training-for and buying a jump-freighter, that you can then jump out to an alt-cyno in losec the moment you do start getting bumped... You know, like make counterplay actions that you take personally, rather than mechanics changes and stuff....
Or if moving smaller batches of cargo, invest in a transport ship. I find both the Crane and Viator work quite well at allowing me to move stuff past CODE without them ever having a hope in Hell of catching me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2631
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:33:57 -
[18] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong...
But even if your ships can't align and warp out after you log.... don't you magically disappear after a few mins with no LE timer?
If they have a gank squad in system already they could still kill you. Even if they don't but have somebody on standby in a noob ship they can engage your ship while you are logged off and thus keep you in space long enough for a gank squad to arrive.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2631
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:39:10 -
[19] - Quote
Agondray wrote: No I watched a freighter bumped for over an hour in Jita, the pilot has long been logged off thinking the same thing. I have a copy of her empty freighter killmail on my note pad.
Scouts don't work as the bumpers are usually and alt and range from things like stabbers to machs, shoot im no ganker or bumper but I have rammed a few freighters out of boredom in my Vindicator.
the only counter to it is to have someone else bump you elsewhere towards a warp point, I did that in jita and saved a freighter......then the freighter warped right back to station and started getting bumped again.
Ive watched a freighter get bumped warp in an osprey fleet to shield rep him against the gankers, the gankers killed the osprey, and after their global cool downs, gank the freighter.
For some stupid reason CCP says bumping someone for 1-2+ hrs its ligit game play, you tell another player about the physics of them fapping in their pod and you have a GM contacting you for being reported.
CCP need to start with ligit day 0 characters with the perception that they know nothing of their own game, no powers, no super ships and play their own game and see whats its like.
Well you can use the contacts. On an alt character I use for hauling I set all of CODE red. If I see a neutral bumping people in Uedama while flying through in my crane I set him red.
As for scouting, you already know which ship types to look for, macherials, navy omens and so forth. In a pinch I've docked up my hauling alt and then in a pod or noob ship jump into Uedama and have a look at the in-gate. Heck I've done this on the two adjacent systems as well. Yes, its tedious and annoying...but welcome to Eve.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Paranoid Loyd
4246
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:42:01 -
[20] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Still waiting for my +1's because CCP need to create counter play to get my bowhead through bubble camps. have you tried it? its freaking impossible. Bump it out of the bubble.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2631
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Posted - 2015.03.17 22:46:47 -
[21] - Quote
As for the issue of counter-play...consider things in a more abstract way.
CODE.: A group of players who have learned the mechanics for various parts of the game who go out and interact with other players.
Freighter Pilots: A group of players who more often than not elect for solo and even AFK play and all too frequently don't understand the mechanics or even in some instances the "meta" of this game.
One possible way to address the issue of lack of counter is to use your enemies tactics. Work together. Working together you can scout systems for each other. Working together you can thwart the bumpers and ultimately CODE.
Lastly, whining to CCP that a single player should be able to defeat the efforts of a dozen or more players will almost surely get you nowhere. The issue of counters is up to you. That is what this game is about. Not having the counters handed to you on a platter.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Also, reported for lack of content. You're not suggesting anything, you're just complaining that bumping exists.
Now, now.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
915
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 02:33:41 -
[22] - Quote
Extractor Bill wrote: The issue here is not that it can be done, but rather the lack of COUNTERPLAY.
get a friend to bump the bumper
there you have it counter play
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
272
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Posted - 2015.03.18 07:29:03 -
[23] - Quote
Yet for some reason i habitually web freighters through amamake in 2 seconds and get my webbing ship off grid in about 5 seconds...
Hell i was once approached on the amamake gate by some one with a "your spaceships or your life" thing, my responce? JUMP INTO AMAMAKE and warp off... While explaining to said NPC-alt the failings of his strat... |
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
95
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Posted - 2015.03.18 08:00:32 -
[24] - Quote
As has been mentioned, webs are your friend. A Daredevil with a 90% web will drop a freighter into warp in theoretically 2 seconds (probably 3 in practice) if it's done right - you can't possibly get bumped in that time.
And yes, it is reasonable to expect a capital ship to be extremely vulnerable without at least one support ship assisting it. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
936
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 08:06:10 -
[25] - Quote
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:As has been mentioned, webs are your friend. A Daredevil with a 90% web will drop a freighter into warp in theoretically 2 seconds (probably 3 in practice) if it's done right - you can't possibly get bumped in that time.
And yes, it is reasonable to expect a capital ship to be extremely vulnerable without at least one support ship assisting it.
You need to use recons, regional gates can spit you out 40+ km apart. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1296
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Posted - 2015.03.18 09:07:18 -
[26] - Quote
A DD is useless as a webber, because it does not have the range. Rapier or the Hyena, or at max the Cruor, are the only feasible ships to make webbing not a worse chore as it already is.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Lugh Crow-Slave
916
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Posted - 2015.03.18 09:52:27 -
[27] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:A DD is useless as a webber, because it does not have the range. Rapier or the Hyena, or at max the Cruor, are the only feasible ships to make webbing not a worse chore as it already is.
and if you even want to go beyond that bring a T3 with skirmish links to up the range a bit more
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
101
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 10:12:50 -
[28] - Quote
I think part of the problem is that the "intended" mechanic of using a web to warp-assist freighters is not spelled out, or even hinted at, in-game.
- Bringing an escort of big guns doesn't work. CONCORD protects the bumper too. And you're not going to do enough damage to a gank fleet to be of much help. - Scouts don't help and aren't needed; we already know where the bad guys are: TheyGÇÖre at the choke points. - Bumping-the-bumper is of limited value. If gankers can bring dozens of ships then they can spare a 5-6 more for hobo tackling. You can't counter-bump that.
So clearly the optimal tactic is to have friend use the web trick. All (or most) of us have been playing the game for years. We all understand how warping works and how the webbing mechanic can be applied to drastically cut the time require to get into warp. But these esoteric techniques are not obvious to new players. If the game designers are not willing to change the mechanics in any way then they should better and more explicitly communicate the proper way to move 2.5B ISK worth of risk around using the existing mechanics.
One of the first posts I made on here was to add short tutorials to skillbooks so that they would benefit the meat-bag, as well as the toon. This would be a good way to introduce new players to these sorts of unconventional tactics. If not that, then there should be a note added to the item descriptions of webbing modules. After all, this is the main way that new players first learn what exists and gain a bit of insight into how the game is played-- by reading through the descriptions of items in the market window.
Otherwise, we will need to talk about dedicated-purpose warp remote-assist modules. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
937
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Posted - 2015.03.18 11:20:27 -
[29] - Quote
Colette Kassia wrote:Otherwise, we will need to talk about dedicated-purpose warp remote-assist modules.
Or we use the collective brainpower to devise a way that flags people who are tackling you.
These guys genuinely crack me up, "high sec is too safe, we provide the risk!" /hides behind concord in bumping pirate BS.
The risk reward of the mechanic is whack, but all you'll get on here - literally all - is that it is working as intended, be active and bring friends.
Also, rather hilariously, these are the same arguments people find unreasonable about entosis counters...but that's none of my business
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2515
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Posted - 2015.03.18 11:24:20 -
[30] - Quote
Colette Kassia wrote:- Bringing an escort of big guns doesn't work. CONCORD protects the bumper too. And you're not going to do enough damage to a gank fleet to be of much help.
Most bump ships aren't fit for PvP, they're fit for bumping, which makes them vulnerable to guns of various sizes. Don't be a chicken - take your lumps from Concord like a man / woman / goat and deal with the threat. If it's got to the point where this is the smart play, then you're either the 0.01% that get truly unlucky or you dun goofed.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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