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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15526
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Posted - 2015.03.26 10:47:05 -
[1] - Quote
Cant wait to hear the screams out outrage when CCP changes local chat in null to the same as WH space.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15529
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Posted - 2015.03.27 12:23:33 -
[2] - Quote
Its funny how people pick up on the hint of an afk cloaking nerf while ignoring that there was also a hint at local chat intel nerf in the same announcement.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15530
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Posted - 2015.03.28 06:30:35 -
[3] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Trii Seo wrote:Hey, if they remove local - AFK cloaking won't even be needed anymore. Recons + D-scan immunity + mobile depot + cloak to evade probes baltec1 wrote:Its funny how people pick up on the hint of an afk cloaking nerf while ignoring that there was also a hint at local chat intel nerf in the same announcement. Worm Holes will be sweet heaven as you can't hot drop there.
Cant have one without the other.
You people pushed and this is the end result, local intel tool is getting nerfed so you can hunt down something that wasn't an issue to start with. Just like with the freighter nerf people are going to get what they asked for along with everything else required to balance out the change.I feel another round of I told you so coming soon.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15532
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Posted - 2015.03.28 16:02:10 -
[4] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:You people puse end result, local intel tool is getting nerfed so you can hunt down something that wasn't an issue to start with. Just like with the freighter nerf people are going to get what they asked for along with everything else required to balance out the change.I feel another round of I told you so coming soon. I'd be very surprised if they did push forward the local change. Null sec would empty out. The bulk of the people crying about it will be the ones flying system to system for hours on end and finding no PvE players to kill. To be honest I don't really care if they kill null with a change like that, since it will prove a point to all of the idiots that think PvE players would just hand themselves over to be farmed if the mechanics changed.
Its going to happen when you get your nerf to afk cloaking, CCP have more or less admitted this. We did warn you.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15535
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Posted - 2015.03.29 18:02:45 -
[5] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its going to happen when you get your nerf to afk cloaking, CCP have more or less admitted this. We did warn you. Warn me? Why would you warn me? It will affect me to the sum of zero either way. The only reason I support the removal of AFK cloaking is because the ability to sit in space for hours AFK with 100% safety is ludicrous. As for PvE players which I imagine you were assuming me to be, why would they care? They can get just as much isk in highsec, and more in wormhole space and be safer in both cases than null without local. If local goes from null, so does the vast majority of the population, and the ones crying about it will be players who used to PvP there. But no, I don;t see it happening to be honest. CCP barely hinted at it, and speaking to the devs at fanfest there's absolutely nothing set in stone for it. I reckon they'd realise it will kill off null population and give it a miss.
CCP hinted at it as much as they hinted at a nerf to AFK cloaking. They also gave me what I have been asking for for years, sov null mission agents.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15536
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Posted - 2015.03.30 03:49:35 -
[6] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, and in both cases it's "take with a grain of salt", but realistically which is more likely to be something CCP pushes. I honestly can't see them nuking null even more my removing local. Forcing players to actually have to be active though, that's something I can see them doing.
Cant have one without the other. Remove AFK cloaking without dealing with local and you wind up with the perfect intel tool that you cannot counter. If you want AFK cloaking nerfed then you have to deal with the other balance changes that would be needed.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15536
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Posted - 2015.03.30 08:05:50 -
[7] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, and in both cases it's "take with a grain of salt", but realistically which is more likely to be something CCP pushes. I honestly can't see them nuking null even more my removing local. Forcing players to actually have to be active though, that's something I can see them doing. Cant have one without the other. Remove AFK cloaking without dealing with local and you wind up with the perfect intel tool that you cannot counter. If you want AFK cloaking nerfed then you have to deal with the other balance changes that would be needed. Of course you can have one without the other. Not only did local exist pre AFK cloaking, but AFK cloaking isn't even a counter to local intel. That's something a random came up with a couple of years ago as an excuse for why local should be removed. If anything AFK cloaking is a counter to sov holding alliances who small groups can't fight - something which is already being dealt with. I can't see them puttign all this effort into changing null then going "oh and we're going to take away local too, just so noone bothers using our new system because all other space is better than null now". I doubt they'd put in the local change into null unless it came hand in hand with the removal of jumping and a massive increasing in the amount of rewards in null - two things I can't see happening also.
AFK cloaking is the only way to mess with the intel from local. Yes, they will have to nerf local as there would be zero counters to it if they nerf afk cloacking.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 10:34:58 -
[8] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:AFK cloaing isn't a way to mess with the intel.
It is the only way to mess with it.
No matter what ship, fittings or tactics you use you show up in local chat the second you enter or leave the system, it is impossible to avoid. we can only use one tactic and that is to sit in local for days at a time and prey the targets do something stupid like go ratting without an organised defence.
Remove AFK cloaking and there is nothing to counter the intel from local.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 10:47:17 -
[9] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:AFK cloaing isn't a way to mess with the intel. It is the only way to mess with it. No matter what ship, fittings or tactics you use you show up in local chat the second you enter or leave the system, it is impossible to avoid. we can only use one tactic and that is to sit in local for days at a time and prey the targets do something stupid like go ratting without an organised defence. Remove AFK cloaking and there is nothing to counter the intel from local. and whats the counter to afk cloaking, recons, blops, covert cynos if you remove local? or do you think its a good idea that people can remain 100% invisible with the option to drop 20k+ dps whenever they want?
Im not asking for its removal.
Both are tied together, remove one and you have to deal with the other.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 10:53:26 -
[10] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: isnt the counter to local cynos which can instantly bridge in fleets of ships? its not like cloaky ships are inefficient
How do you get the cyno ship into system without showing up in local?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 11:00:49 -
[11] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
well you show up in local which is what is needed, having a cyno ship invisible to everyone in system is just op, anything that delays or doesnt show in local is just too op especially when you have ships which are only visible via local
Which means the cyno ship is not a counter to local.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 11:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
no but whatever is on the other end of the cyno is
Irrelevant, the cyno ship was spotted and there are no targets to drop on.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15538
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Posted - 2015.03.31 11:16:03 -
[13] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
no but whatever is on the other end of the cyno is
Irrelevant, the cyno ship was spotted and there are no targets to drop on. as said afk (if thats the right word) cloaking is not inefficient, they still get kills, take a look at confederation of pizza, they get tons of kills by placing cov ops cyno chars in dozens of systems, regardless if its the ratters ignorance or not the tactic still works well and the power to drop a fleet of high dps ships onto any target is enough without having to give any local restrictions
Which brings us nicely back to the fact that AFK cloaking is the only counter to local.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15542
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Posted - 2015.04.01 15:52:28 -
[14] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:AFK cloaing isn't a way to mess with the intel. It is the only way to mess with it. No matter what ship, fittings or tactics you use you show up in local chat the second you enter or leave the system, it is impossible to avoid. we can only use one tactic and that is to sit in local for days at a time and prey the targets do something stupid like go ratting without an organised defence. Remove AFK cloaking and there is nothing to counter the intel from local. But it's not a counter to local. It doesn't stop local working, it doesn't counter it's ability to detect new players. It uses local as a tool to counter PvE activity, that's all. And no, that's not all you can do. thousands of kills occur every single day without AFK cloakers being involved, so obviously there's other things that work.
People being idiots is not a counter to local. Same way people being idiots was not a counter to remote doomsdays.
AFK cloaking is currently the only way to get around being detected instantly in local and that only works if people chose to not organise a defence.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15542
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Posted - 2015.04.01 15:53:49 -
[15] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:Why should you be able to go inactive in a hostile system without them being able to find you over time? Why should you be able to dock in a station and heve the exact same effect?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 15:59:31 -
[16] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:Why should you be able to go inactive in a hostile system without them being able to find you over time? Why should you be able to dock in a station and heve the exact same effect? A station can be conquered if you never undock. I can force a fight by attempting to take the station. N3 are realizing this right now, are they not? So again, why should you be able to go inactive in hostile space and expect invincibility?
Stations cannot be captured.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:05:23 -
[17] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:Why should you be able to go inactive in a hostile system without them being able to find you over time? Why should you be able to dock in a station and heve the exact same effect? A station can be conquered if you never undock. I can force a fight by attempting to take the station. N3 are realizing this right now, are they not? So again, why should you be able to go inactive in hostile space and expect invincibility? Stations cannot be captured. I'm sorry, are you seriously complaining about NPC null, lowsec, and empire stations not being capturable?
No, I am pointing out the stupidity in your argument. I can do the exact same thing as afk cloaking using stations.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:09:46 -
[18] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:Why should you be able to go inactive in a hostile system without them being able to find you over time? Why should you be able to dock in a station and heve the exact same effect? Why should people have a 100% accurate, instant, free, no effort, unavoidable intel tool? Pretty sure you can see them in the station guest list then, and have some idea of where they will be when they undock into your bubble camp.
Which can only be done in null space and begs the question:
I you would dedicate people to defending a system from someone docked why are you unwilling to do the exact same thing with an AFK cloaker?
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:18:33 -
[19] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:
No, I am pointing out the stupidity in your argument. I can do the exact same thing as afk cloaking using stations.
They are not the same in the slightest. You know exactly where they are if they are in a station. You know the exact second they undock. The only stupidity in the argument is what you are exhibiting by comparing the two.
So you dedicate someone to watching me 24/7? Not going to happen.
You might know where I am but you are not going know when I am active or what ship is going to pop out, Im just a name in local and station.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:21:20 -
[20] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Which can only be done in null space and begs the question:
I you would dedicate people to defending a system from someone docked why are you unwilling to do the exact same thing with an AFK cloaker? A docked player has only one point of exit and has to go through it to do anything and can be guarded by one person if they have the ship and skill to fight the docked player. An AFK cloaker can appear right next to any target they choose or can simply choose to leave. Short of a massive gatecamp and an enormous amount of luck, you're not going to stop him.
You will with an organised defence. We do it day in day out.
No, what you want is the ability to ensure a perfect safety net via local intel.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:25:24 -
[21] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:PvE efficiency.
Carebears who want to play in nullsec, because it means more money ... ... but want it to be as safe as highsec, because they are cowards.
PvE efficiency. That's not it at all. Null players have no problem with risk, what there's a problem with here is players who can retain 100% pure safety while away from their computer. If anyone's carebearing here it's the AFK cloakers telling everyone how entitled they are to their zero effort, 100% safe mechanic. If someone wants to actively stay in system threatening PvE players, that's no problem.
Yet here you are pushing for a 100% foolproof intel system that would mean pve players could avoid any attempt at pvp on them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:29:03 -
[22] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Which can only be done in null space and begs the question:
I you would dedicate people to defending a system from someone docked why are you unwilling to do the exact same thing with an AFK cloaker? A docked player has only one point of exit and has to go through it to do anything and can be guarded by one person if they have the ship and skill to fight the docked player. An AFK cloaker can appear right next to any target they choose or can simply choose to leave. Short of a massive gatecamp and an enormous amount of luck, you're not going to stop him. You will with an organised defence. We do it day in day out. No, what you want is the ability to ensure a perfect safety net via local intel. Look at you still trying to compare AFK cloaking to being docked in a station. It's so cute!
We shut down entire systems in the ice interdictions simply by having one flashy red docked in the station. Same result.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:30:34 -
[23] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Yet here you are pushing for a 100% foolproof intel system that would mean pve players could avoid any attempt at pvp on them. People already can avoid any attempt at PvP on them, often unsuccessfully. Even if AFK cloakers didn't exist, that would be no different. Again, what I'm pushing for is actively playing players, that's all. It's not a new concept.
You get the result you want by removing local.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:50:17 -
[24] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Yet here you are pushing for a 100% foolproof intel system that would mean pve players could avoid any attempt at pvp on them. People already can avoid any attempt at PvP on them, often unsuccessfully. Even if AFK cloakers didn't exist, that would be no different. Again, what I'm pushing for is actively playing players, that's all. It's not a new concept. You get the result you want by removing local. So you want WH space? Then go to WH space.
If you want risk free pve go to highsec
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:53:10 -
[25] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Yet here you are pushing for a 100% foolproof intel system that would mean pve players could avoid any attempt at pvp on them. People already can avoid any attempt at PvP on them, often unsuccessfully. Even if AFK cloakers didn't exist, that would be no different. Again, what I'm pushing for is actively playing players, that's all. It's not a new concept. You get the result you want by removing local. Indeed, I've agreed many times. Unfortunately the removal of local also has other effects, like emptying out null of PvE, since all other PvE would be lower risk, some for better rewards (such as wormholes). In the same way though, removing of cloaking altogether also fixes the AFK cloaking issue, does it not?
That results in an uncounterable safety net that would be unbalanced. If you want afk cloaking gone then local intel needs to go too.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15543
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:55:03 -
[26] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you want risk free pve go to highsec We're not asking for risk free PvE.
Thats exactly what you get when you remove afk cloaking.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15544
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Posted - 2015.04.01 17:42:49 -
[27] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:baltec1 wrote:Yet here you are pushing for a 100% foolproof intel system that would mean pve players could avoid any attempt at pvp on them. People already can avoid any attempt at PvP on them, often unsuccessfully. Even if AFK cloakers didn't exist, that would be no different. Again, what I'm pushing for is actively playing players, that's all. It's not a new concept. You're pushing for actively playing players... by advocating for something that removes the one barrier to completely free afk ratting in nullsec. Lol. You're advocating for naked, selfish self interest, exactly like in the ISBotter thread, be honest for once. Hundreds and hundreds of people lose ships ratting/mining every day to people just roaming through with a ceptor scout. Stop with the bull, seriously.
Stupidity of afk ratters is not a valid argument.
you will never catch an aleart ratter thanks to the fact that you show up in local the second you enter the system.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15544
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Posted - 2015.04.01 18:00:15 -
[28] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: Not true active ratters lose ships all the tine to hotdroppers that have been in system for long periods of time, pizza have very good success with it
Which would end when you remove the tool they use.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15544
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Posted - 2015.04.01 18:04:38 -
[29] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:
Why, because you say it's not? LOL. A ceptor can tackle someone in just a few seconds upon entering a system, not everything can align and warp in those few seconds. It happens EVERY DAY, HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of times. I feel sorry for you IRL :(
They tacle afk ratters every day. You have more than enough time to get a capital out of the anom before they can finish d-scanning it down.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.01 19:14:05 -
[30] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:
Why, because you say it's not? LOL. A ceptor can tackle someone in just a few seconds upon entering a system, not everything can align and warp in those few seconds. It happens EVERY DAY, HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of times. I feel sorry for you IRL :(
They tacle afk ratters every day. You have more than enough time to get a capital out of the anom before they can finish d-scanning it down. Then why do things other than captials also get tackled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times a day? Because they are "stupid"? Should that matter? Yes, AFK people who are ratting die all the time, why shouldn't AFK cloakers also die all the time? You really enjoy shooting yourself in the foot don't you?
Im fine with afk cloaking being nerfed, but to get that you have to deal with the imbalance it would cause. If you want afk cloaking gone you have to deal with losing your local intel tool. This is the exact same kind of argument we had with the people who wanted fittings on freighters. They also thought they would get nothing but a buff with their demand.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.01 21:03:41 -
[31] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:
Why, because you say it's not? LOL. A ceptor can tackle someone in just a few seconds upon entering a system, not everything can align and warp in those few seconds. It happens EVERY DAY, HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of times. I feel sorry for you IRL :(
They tacle afk ratters every day. You have more than enough time to get a capital out of the anom before they can finish d-scanning it down. Then why do things other than captials also get tackled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times a day? Because they are "stupid"? Should that matter? Yes, AFK people who are ratting die all the time, why shouldn't AFK cloakers also die all the time? You really enjoy shooting yourself in the foot don't you? Im fine with afk cloaking being nerfed, but to get that you have to deal with the imbalance it would cause. If you want afk cloaking gone you have to deal with losing your local intel tool. This is the exact same kind of argument we had with the people who wanted fittings on freighters. They also thought they would get nothing but a buff with their demand. Lose local and it causes a balance issue with cynos and recons being able to drop fleets, recons will make people 100% invisible without local and still have the power to drop massive dps fleets without anyone even knowing, you make null a stupid place to live unless you are selfsufficient with highsec alts for carebearing
All they can drop are blackops and never in numbers that would overwhelm you. The days of local intel look to be over anyway, CCP are activly toying with new tools to replace it.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.01 21:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:All they can drop are blackops and never in numbers that would overwhelm you. The days of local intel look to be over anyway, CCP are activly toying with new tools to replace it. Hahaha. So delusional.
Feel free to try anything else when a cyno jammer is up.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.02 08:59:32 -
[33] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:
When was the last time Bomber Bar blapped a goonie carrier in 15 seconds flat? Oh that's right, yesterday.
An AFK carrier not fitted for fighting.
sabre906 wrote: Wh space is not only hotdrop proof, the isk in it is vastly higher than any max upgraded -1.0 truesec system (unless you count in moon goo), and there's no sov bills or sov wars.
Why would anyone in their right mind live in a wh system that has gates, hotdrops, sov bills, and far lower isk? In order to convince anyone to live in such a place, rewards will have to be set so high it may as well screw up Eve.
You may have missed it but CCP have announced that the rewards in nullsec are indeed getting revamped.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:56:42 -
[34] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:baltec1 wrote:All they can drop are blackops and never in numbers that would overwhelm you. The days of local intel look to be over anyway, CCP are activly toying with new tools to replace it. Hahaha. So delusional. Feel free to try anything else when a cyno jammer is up. I cannot talk about current 0.0 but back in 2011 we in DroneLand were VERY AWARE of group of 9-13 people who were dropping solo ratters with up to 12 blackops.... And if you say that your 12 blackops are nothing....
They arn't when you dump 12-30 carriers on them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15547
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Posted - 2015.04.03 03:13:16 -
[35] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Problem with dumping 12-30 carriers is timing.
Scenario - 1 cov ops perma cloaked in system, been there a few weeks (most droppers will have multiple of these all around regions they operate in). See's target. No one in system. CTA - dweebs log off their high sec mission running accounts, log on their blops characters, drop the target, jump out, log out.
There's no way to preempt them unless you have guys perma-ready to counter drop on the off chance the afk will go active the next time. You know this baltec...
You have an entire region of people out flying ratting carriers, all you need is a cyno of your own and some organisation. Responce time is damn near instant.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15548
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Posted - 2015.04.03 13:15:36 -
[36] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:
Yes because smaller entities always have the numbers on for 12-30 carriers at the sound of a ping in their off time zone. As I said, you're ignorant to the problem because you personally don't have the problem being in a 30k man alliance that's part of a how many thousands of player coalition?
If you don't have 30 guys to call on at any given time you don't deserve to hold your space.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15560
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Posted - 2015.04.04 07:32:55 -
[37] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: How would you do it in your 'cyno jammed system'?
You arn't willing to have a standing fleet for protection in the system so here is an alternative to your problem.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15561
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Posted - 2015.04.04 07:36:22 -
[38] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:
Why should 30 guys be on call 23/7 because of 1 AFK cyno dropper that decides to find something in the few minutes he's active?
Because you are in null sec not highsec.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15569
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Posted - 2015.04.04 17:32:29 -
[39] - Quote
Dictateur Imperator wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Don't be silly afk cloaking while doing nothing obviously helps catch the targets I can proof moral harassement of a lot of perma cloacker and CCP can't said it's "game mechanic fact" if the game mechanic are not "good" for all player. (Means each game play have a true counter).
Your posting is going to be a hoot when we next burn jita/rapecage a system.
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