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Anthar Thebess
1071
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Posted - 2015.06.12 09:32:29 -
[1] - Quote
CCP is planing to boosts heavy missiles. I hope the same applies to Heavy assault missiles. But in order for them be useful in something other than PVE and shooting big not moving targets they need additional boosts.
Missile speed needs to be increased drastically.
When engaging slow targets every thing is ok , but when we are talking about MWD cruiser and smaller size engagements most of the times you are just shooting without any big impact , as target you chaise is simply outrunning missiles by running from you.
This speed increase don't need to increase range of those missiles (but it could by around additional 7-10km)
Simply lets not forget that most of the engagements is when ships are boosted by links.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2233
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Posted - 2015.06.12 10:07:53 -
[2] - Quote
I believe there was something about 'fixing' this with modules. Though it should be in their base stats really
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Anthar Thebess
1073
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Posted - 2015.06.12 10:13:17 -
[3] - Quote
This must be change in base stats. Without this this missile never will be in any use, range + speed negates most of the DPS when you are shooting something that is not scramed and double webbed .
If this needs to be compensated by modules, then no one will waste 2 slots to fix those missiles.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
308
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:21:49 -
[4] - Quote
you do realize HAMs are short range weapons right? They apply fine under web, or you can use TP to make them alittle better at appplication under 20km. I think the more reasonable request would be to buff javelin's application a smidge. Since those are the long range HAM missiles, but have pretty poor application.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1181
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:34:23 -
[5] - Quote
HAM's do the same range as torps which tells us they actually need a range nerf and then rockets by default as they have too be lower than HAM's by the usual class size amount.
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13391
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Posted - 2015.06.12 12:47:23 -
[6] - Quote
If CCP isn't going to nut up and roll back some of the ludicrous power creep of speed that has been going on, yes, missiles need a drastic missile speed increase. Even if they don't, a 20-30% buff would not be out of line either.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Anthar Thebess
1075
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:08:50 -
[7] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:you do realize HAMs are short range weapons right? They apply fine under web, or you can use TP to make them alittle better at appplication under 20km. I think the more reasonable request would be to buff javelin's application a smidge. Since those are the long range HAM missiles, but have pretty poor application.
But what did i stated? That the main problem is not in the range, but in the application : - if you are chasing MWD cruiser or smaller ship , you will loose most of the dps as missiles will run out of the fuel ( as you are traveling at least at 1.5k m/s) - The only way to overcome this is scram and double web the target , so it will not move , painting also help
Main issue is not the range, but missile speed.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
323
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:28:25 -
[8] - Quote
HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me... |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
308
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:30:41 -
[9] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:you do realize HAMs are short range weapons right? They apply fine under web, or you can use TP to make them alittle better at appplication under 20km. I think the more reasonable request would be to buff javelin's application a smidge. Since those are the long range HAM missiles, but have pretty poor application. But what did i stated? That the main problem is not in the range, but in the application : - if you are chasing MWD cruiser or smaller ship , you will loose most of the dps as missiles will run out of the fuel ( as you are traveling at least at 1.5k m/s) - The only way to overcome this is scram and double web the target , so it will not move , painting also help Main issue is not the range, but missile speed.
Then stop trying to chase a cruiser with HAMs. Make them chase you, that extends your range considerably since they're burning at you. Once they turn around to chase you, turn back into them to get scram/tackle. Then your HAMs will apply fine. Or fly a HAM caracal/cerb and have all the range you need with HAMs. Will still have lousy application at range though. Also 1.5km/s is pretty slow, what are you flying? A cyclone? If so, see my thread on buffing BCs in my sig.
You do realize missile speed also translates to missile range right? Increasing speed increases range. Also you contradicted yourself.
You first said "the main problem is not in range, but application", then you said "the main issue is not the range, but speed". So which is it? Application and speed are two different things.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
308
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:35:10 -
[10] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me...
To be fair, without webs/tp/rigor, you are not going to applying that dps at 30km. Also if it were OP, then im pretty sure we would see more missile ships than we do ishtars. Its actually fairly rare for me to see a missile cruiser that isnt a caracal/orthrus.
Missiles need tweaking, but buffing range/speed on HAMs isnt what they need.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Anthar Thebess
1075
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:40:37 -
[11] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:you do realize HAMs are short range weapons right? They apply fine under web, or you can use TP to make them alittle better at appplication under 20km. I think the more reasonable request would be to buff javelin's application a smidge. Since those are the long range HAM missiles, but have pretty poor application. But what did i stated? That the main problem is not in the range, but in the application : - if you are chasing MWD cruiser or smaller ship , you will loose most of the dps as missiles will run out of the fuel ( as you are traveling at least at 1.5k m/s) - The only way to overcome this is scram and double web the target , so it will not move , painting also help Main issue is not the range, but missile speed. Then stop trying to chase a cruiser with HAMs. Make them chase you, that extends your range considerably since they're burning at you. Once they turn around to chase you, turn back into them to get scram/tackle. Then your HAMs will apply fine. Or fly a HAM caracal/cerb and have all the range you need with HAMs. Will still have lousy application at range though. Also 1.5km/s is pretty slow, what are you flying? A cyclone? If so, see my thread on buffing BCs in my sig. You do realize missile speed also translates to missile range right? Increasing speed increases range. Also you contradicted yourself. You first said "the main problem is not in range, but application", then you said "the main issue is not the range, but speed". So which is it? Application and speed are two different things.
So i cannot use medium weapons against medium sized ship? Heavy assault missiles are the autocannons/ blasters/ etc class weapon for missile cruiser.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1889
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:43:54 -
[12] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me...
Look at all them HAM cruisers shitting all over Ishtars... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1181
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:45:54 -
[13] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me... To be fair, without webs/tp/rigor, you are not going to applying that dps at 30km. Also if it were OP, then im pretty sure we would see more missile ships than we do ishtars. Its actually fairly rare for me to see a missile cruiser that isnt a caracal/orthrus. Missiles need tweaking, but buffing range/speed on HAMs isnt what they need.
well i presume the 30km is adding the new missile mod too it as its 16km with rage on a drake, maybe he means on a cerberus and navy ammo. RLML's have overidden HAM's because of light missile tracking, but the fact that HAM's have the same range as torps is OP.
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13394
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Posted - 2015.06.12 13:59:21 -
[14] - Quote
I honestly don't know why there are some people in here arguing that missiles of all things are overpowered, but it's a testament to the insanity of F&I.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1181
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Posted - 2015.06.12 14:30:28 -
[15] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I honestly don't know why there are some people in here arguing that missiles of all things are overpowered, but it's a testament to the insanity of F&I.
i don't think anyone is saying missles as a whole is OP, just range aspects of certain missiles, oh and RLML's are OP
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
324
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Posted - 2015.06.12 18:45:58 -
[16] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me... then im pretty sure we would see more missile ships than we do ishtars.
I think we would all like to see of other ships than just cruisers all the time. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
359
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Posted - 2015.06.12 20:13:08 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If CCP isn't going to nut up and roll back some of the ludicrous power creep of speed that has been going on, yes, missiles need a drastic missile speed increase. Even if they don't, a 20-30% buff would not be out of line either.
This x1000.
Address the disease, not the symptom.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract O X I D E
406
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Posted - 2015.06.12 23:16:45 -
[18] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:HAM's do the same range as torps which tells us they actually need a range nerf and then rockets by default as they have too be lower than HAM's by the usual class size amount. Or buff torpedo range. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
486
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Posted - 2015.06.13 04:30:50 -
[19] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I honestly don't know why there are some people in here arguing that missiles of all things are overpowered, but it's a testament to the insanity of F&I.
I decree that anything that has killed me, by definition, is OP and must be nerfed. Only the ships that I am currently flying are ones that are underpowered and need a buff.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1383
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Posted - 2015.06.13 08:51:20 -
[20] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:you do realize HAMs are short range weapons right? They apply fine under web, or you can use TP to make them alittle better at appplication under 20km. I think the more reasonable request would be to buff javelin's application a smidge. Since those are the long range HAM missiles, but have pretty poor application.
It's not application, it's flat up absolute speed to hit at all.
They should just 'mordu' all the base stats so that speed only affects application and outrunning them isn't really practical. |
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Fourteen Maken
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted.
165
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Posted - 2015.06.13 11:50:36 -
[21] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me...
what would you know about it? They're hardly ever used in pvp in their current state because of delayed damage, poor application, and high fitting requirements.
you can't compare the range/dps on missiles directly with the range/dps of turrets or drones, that's the attitude that gave us broken missiles in the first place. There's no allowance made for the fact that delayed damage means gangs and fleets loose a lot of their dps because missiles are flying at ships that have already been destroyed.
If you fit blasters or autocannons you set up your fit so you have range control and you're always fighting at your optimal when you land tackle, or you fit mwd/scram so you can burn down snipers so the shorter range is far less important than the higher dps you get with turrets.
If you're sniping long range turrets and sentry drones will always be preferred because instant damage means little or no wasted dps and the abillity to instantly volley targets off the field, if we balance the range and dps with missiles that have delayed damage do you not see how broken that is?
Also the range on missiles is theoretical, the last 10% of your range doesn't always apply even if the target is stationary for some reason, if the target is orbiting or burning away from you your range is often cut in half maybe more depending on how fast it is, which is another side effect of delayed damage.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you or anyone else says, Heavy/HAM missiles are not being used enough and they haven't been used for a long time. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
13405
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Posted - 2015.06.13 13:47:19 -
[22] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote: At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you or anyone else says, Heavy/HAM missiles are not being used enough and they haven't been used for a long time.
To emphasize this, the only platform I can think of that can use Heavy Assault missiles halfway correctly is the Sacrilege, and that's with 3 hull bonuses dedicated to it. No T1 ship can use them decently, that's how brokenly underpowered they are right now.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Anthar Thebess
1083
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Posted - 2015.06.15 13:30:30 -
[23] - Quote
Lets hope that CCP notice this - and make this viable weapon system for PVP. Btw. When did you last seen sacri fleet?
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
356
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Posted - 2015.06.15 14:28:37 -
[24] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me...
Uhm..... what cruiser does that?
I've apparently been missing out. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
316
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Posted - 2015.06.15 15:56:30 -
[25] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me... Uhm..... what cruiser does that? I've apparently been missing out.
I found out what he must be referencing. A HAM cerb with scourge rage missiles does 700dps cold and shoots out to 35km. Course you wont be applying anywhere near that unless you have a rapier alt and bellicose alt on standby. Also, since its kinetic locked, better hope you dont fight any t2 gal ships. Its not like they arent FOTM (FOTY?) or anything right now.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Anthar Thebess
1083
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Posted - 2015.06.16 08:06:58 -
[26] - Quote
Yes but no one will be using this kind of ship for PVP , from very obvious reasons.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1105
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Posted - 2015.06.16 09:00:55 -
[27] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Phaade wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:HAM doesn't need a buff or anything.
700 dps at 30 km for a cruiser is already incredibly overpowered if you ask me... Uhm..... what cruiser does that? I've apparently been missing out. I found out what he must be referencing. A HAM cerb with scourge rage missiles does 700dps cold and shoots out to 35km. Course you wont be applying anywhere near that unless you have a rapier alt and bellicose alt on standby. Also, since its kinetic locked, better hope you dont fight any t2 gal ships. Its not like they arent FOTM (FOTY?) or anything right now.
Celthric, what you are saying is that a HAM Cerberus does less DPS, at shorter range, with lower application, than an Ishtar, but this somehow an issue?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Anthar Thebess
1083
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Posted - 2015.06.16 10:24:40 -
[28] - Quote
The problem is in weapon system. Currently RLM have filled a role for a short range medium weapon, because HAM are just bad for PVP. To slow to hit other cruiser in a brawl ( on a hull that have bonus for range ) and way to short range ( and speed) for any hull that can mount it.
It is not about 1 hull actually can use kinetic HAMs to get nice dps , it is about - we have a weapon system that is not working. Lets fix it for all ships.
People are not using HAM to any thing else than PVE - if this is a goal for this missile system , ok , let it be this way. But if this missile system needs to be viable in PVP , they need to change!
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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