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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1562
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:08:35 -
[61] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:There is a saying in Amarr Scripture.
"Surround yourself with the faithful, Stand together, for there is no strength like it under the heavens."
It is rather universal, and what the Federation has always been doing can also be akin of that I think... Like worshipping false Gods, that sort of thing? They have neither fidelity nor faithfulness towards the one true God. Faithfulness is not merely blind belief. It is a contractual obligation, the marriage-like relationship between Amarr and the divine. There's a good reason we call them infidels. They have committed infidelity to the most high!
You call us Infidels because it makes you feel as though you are better than us. In doing so you place yourself below us.
If your 'God' requires a contract between you there is something wrong in that relationship. Your Faith should live in your head and in your heart without need of such things. The Gallente belief in freedom and equality comes from within, not from some ancient writings and belief in some intangible sky fairy. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
28
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:13:51 -
[62] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:I like a good tussle as much as the next person but, I fear the OP has confused fun and suicide.
Speaking as both a Federal citizen and a Minmatar freedom fighter I say "no" to this outlandish proposition. We'll free our people but, it won't be via a direct assault on the imperials.
I trust in the Admirals and leadership of the Federation Navy. They ve showed how good they are assesing the strategic and tactical landscape with Operation Highlander.
Nevertheless, me will go on killing these slaver scum! |
The Leopardess
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
42
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:17:29 -
[63] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The Leopardess wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:There is a saying in Amarr Scripture.
"Surround yourself with the faithful, Stand together, for there is no strength like it under the heavens."
It is rather universal, and what the Federation has always been doing can also be akin of that I think... Like worshipping false Gods, that sort of thing? They have neither fidelity nor faithfulness towards the one true God. Faithfulness is not merely blind belief. It is a contractual obligation, the marriage-like relationship between Amarr and the divine. There's a good reason we call them infidels. They have committed infidelity to the most high! You call us Infidels because it makes you feel as though you are better than us. In doing so you place yourself below us. If your 'God' requires a contract between you there is something wrong in that relationship. Your Faith should live in your head and in your heart without need of such things. The Gallente belief in freedom and equality comes from within, not from some ancient writings and belief in some intangible sky fairy.
The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire. And implying there is something wrong with contracts is completely irrational. Man follows in God's way if he is righteous. Contracts are what bind civilization together. Contracts may be a sacred obligation. and God may choose to express his Will and terms to us in this manner. The Gallente belief in freedom comes from their pride and vainglory, nothing more. They too will be laid low, just like the Minmatar, just like the Jove, until all is united in fidelity to the Lord. It may not be our warships that do it, but our prayers. Who is to say?
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1562
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Posted - 2015.08.18 11:31:06 -
[64] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:...
The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire. And implying there is something wrong with contracts is completely irrational. Man follows in God's way if he is righteous. Contracts are what bind civilization together. Contracts may be a sacred obligation. and God may choose to express his Will and terms to us in this manner. The Gallente belief in freedom comes from their pride and vainglory, nothing more. They too will be laid low, just like the Minmatar, just like the Jove, until all is united in fidelity to the Lord. It may not be our warships that do it, but our prayers. Who is to say?
The only thing ordained is that you may plant your lips on my arse if you think the Amarr Empire will destroy the other Empires. My Caldari cousins should take note as those of the Empire show their true beliefs.
Great getout at the end there. Basically you're saying that even if you are destroyed in open warfare you'll win in the end by babbling to some imaginary friend.
One thing to be clear on here, I have no problem with Theology, most central tenets of such are aligned, don't kill, don't cheat, don't steal and such. It is the implementation of Theologies in the form of Religions that bothers me. They are always used as a means for the few to maintain power and control over the many. This is always enforced with violence absolved with the belief that it was done with Divine cause.
Your Religion will ultimately be the downfall of your Empire if it cannot evolve and adapt to those around it and that would be a great shame. |
Goldfinch
House Rkard
252
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Posted - 2015.08.18 13:38:32 -
[65] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:And even then? No, their motives don't matter to me - their honesty does. I'm not going give any respect to a bunch of self-righteous jerks who can't even admit to themselves why they're doing it.
Ms. Arrendis,
Please do not take our response here as an insult. We have immense respect for your service record and your veracity for open discussion, even if we may not share common opinions.
Your.. verbal crusade.. against the Federation is an unfair indictment of people who have fought in your wars and have extended their good will to Matari as charity and aid. The Federation engenders an open culture which is fundamentally flawed to our Amarr eyes. But, this openness provides a platform for cross-national interaction that does not end in an outcome of violent change and destruction of Matari culture. The Federation isn't out to pluck you from your planets or dismantle your armaments or your way of life.
It seems to us that in your zeal you've forgotten that the Federation have their own culture and history too. Do you expect this nation of vastly varied ethnicities and political entities to behave like another Matari clan, and prioritize Matari needs, and give total deference to Matari glory? They have their troubles and battles too. They have their own horrors that keep them up at night.
We think there is a lesson of diplomacy that you can learn from your own leader, The Mittani. You're right, your allies don't always prioritize the needs of your nation. Their social apparatus may resent you or discriminate against your people. They may even be seen, at times, expressing capitalistic and corporatocratic desires to grind down culture in favor of nationalism and profit. But what do any of these things have to do with diplomacy? Are you really going to sit there and pick and choose your allies because they don't meet some strict, unspoken standard of devotion and equality?
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
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Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1354
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Posted - 2015.08.18 14:21:02 -
[66] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The Leopardess wrote:The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire.... ... My Caldari cousins should take note as those of the Empire show their true beliefs.... They're largely aware. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1068
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:34:43 -
[67] - Quote
Goldfinch wrote:Arrendis wrote:And even then? No, their motives don't matter to me - their honesty does. I'm not going give any respect to a bunch of self-righteous jerks who can't even admit to themselves why they're doing it. Ms. Arrendis, Please do not take our response here as an insult. We have immense respect for your service record and your veracity for open discussion, even if we may not share common opinions.
No insult taken, I promise.
Quote: It seems to us that in your zeal you've forgotten that the Federation have their own culture and history too. Do you expect this nation of vastly varied ethnicities and political entities to behave like another Matari clan, and prioritize Matari needs, and give total deference to Matari glory?
Nope. Don't expect it at all. In fact, I really don't have any problem with them being them. Let me refer you, and the Feds in the thread, back to one of the earlier exchanges:
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Those in the former republic have repaid our generosity with animosity and violence.
As a humble man of trade and as a Gallentean I see far move value in better relations with the Empire than with the tribal entity. Yes yes, because joining in your recent war against the Caldari was truly an act of animosity. Here, let me offer some, so you can properly compare and contrast:
And now they've seen animosity. Maybe they can compare and contrast that with how the Republic itself has responded. On the whole, while some of the Republic's citizens may be snide and spiteful and vicious about things, other than a few isolated flare-ups, I'd say the Matari people as a group have been appreciative of all of the aid the Federation's given us. Are they perfect friends and companions for the ages? Of course not. But generally, the relationship's been to our benefit.
Now if only they'd stop getting their egos bruised and throwing those isolated incidents in our faces whenever we don't show what they feel to be proper deference and gratitude all the damned time... then I'd stop hitting them where they'll always react: right in the smug moral center (you don't wanna know what kind of filling is there... it's mostly drone lube...).
P/S: Fedrats: that's a joke.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1068
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Posted - 2015.08.18 17:37:49 -
[68] - Quote
The Leopardess wrote:The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire.
And then when you tried, the Jove burst your delusional bubble and the Matari wrenched ourselves free. GOOD JOB! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5423
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Posted - 2015.08.18 21:24:17 -
[69] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:The Leopardess wrote:The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire.... ... My Caldari cousins should take note as those of the Empire show their true beliefs.... They're largely aware.
Completely aware. It amuses me that some believe that our alliance rests on so flimsy a basis as the Amarr pretending one thing and us either believing them or else pretending to. It doesn't - it rests solely on the need for a countervailing alliance to match that between the Federation and the Republic.
Of course, the longer the alliance lasts the more cultural and trade links spread between the Empire and the State. The Republic and Federation should probably consider that.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
94
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Posted - 2015.08.18 23:10:59 -
[70] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Completely aware. It amuses me that some believe that our alliance rests on so flimsy a basis as the Amarr pretending one thing and us either believing them or else pretending to. It doesn't - it rests solely on the need for a countervailing alliance to match that between the Federation and the Republic.
Of course, the longer the alliance lasts the more cultural and trade links spread between the Empire and the State. The Republic and Federation should probably consider that.
And we are allied to the Federation because it was thanks to them, we Matari were able to retake our homeworlds throw off the shackles of slavery. Even after all our blunders and belligerence, they remain steadfast allies. And even as you say, our alliance is all the more important as the Militia Forces of both the Empire and the State fight against us.
I for one lament that our empires are aligned against each other.
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
118
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Posted - 2015.08.18 23:39:27 -
[71] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:The Leopardess wrote:The Amarr are better than you. The Lord ordained it so that the Amarr would have the power to unite mankind in one glorious empire.
And then when you tried, the Jove burst your delusional bubble and the Matari wrenched ourselves free. GOOD JOB!
Ah the old Vak'Atioth line..... so classic, so clich+¬d.
Militarily speaking every major empire has suffered a regrettably embarrassing defeat at the hands of one force or another, why this particular one against a foe that defied all four Empire's technological reckoning holds such significance is beyond me.
Modern capsuleers engaging Drifter forces must well understand what it is like to face such incredibly destructive entities. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1075
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Posted - 2015.08.19 00:05:42 -
[72] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Militarily speaking every major empire has suffered a regrettably embarrassing defeat at the hands of one force or another, why this particular one against a foe that defied all four Empire's technological reckoning holds such significance is beyond me.
Most military organizations don't claim inevitable divine mandate of universal conquest.
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Aria Jenneth
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1364
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Posted - 2015.08.19 00:40:49 -
[73] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Militarily speaking every major empire has suffered a regrettably embarrassing defeat at the hands of one force or another, why this particular one against a foe that defied all four Empire's technological reckoning holds such significance is beyond me. Most military organizations don't claim inevitable divine mandate of universal conquest.
Um-- respectfully, Arrendis, what the Amarr really and consistently claim is a duty to Reclaim all of humanity by whatever means. That's understood to be their job.
The inevitability of success seems to be the subject of some debate.
... although a lot of that debate might have come after Vak'Atioth. |
Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
119
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Posted - 2015.08.19 02:17:50 -
[74] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Militarily speaking every major empire has suffered a regrettably embarrassing defeat at the hands of one force or another, why this particular one against a foe that defied all four Empire's technological reckoning holds such significance is beyond me. Most military organizations don't claim inevitable divine mandate of universal conquest.
Hmmm....a fair point I suppose. However even the faithful err, we are not above mistakes, and I like to believe that in life there is a certain inviolable rule.
"You always pay to learn."
Those lessons are invaluable, perhaps that is what we did at Vak'Atioth. If so then in defeat we have learned to become the wiser for it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1077
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Posted - 2015.08.19 02:19:55 -
[75] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:"You always pay to learn."
Those lessons are invaluable, perhaps that is what we did at Vak'Atioth.
Perhaps. But even if it was a lesson, it feels like one many haven't learned. That may simply be an outsider's view, of course... but it does feel that way. |
Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
119
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Posted - 2015.08.19 02:30:26 -
[76] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:"You always pay to learn."
Those lessons are invaluable, perhaps that is what we did at Vak'Atioth. Perhaps. But even if it was a lesson, it feels like one many haven't learned. That may simply be an outsider's view, of course... but it does feel that way.
That depends on what you perceive the lesson to be.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1078
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Posted - 2015.08.19 04:30:05 -
[77] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:That depends on what you perceive the lesson to be.
That maybe 'forced conversion at gunpoint' isn't the best way to get results? |
Matar Ronin
738
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Posted - 2015.08.19 04:47:53 -
[78] - Quote
Goodness knows I would be the last person to say do not attack the slavery cultists, but it is a fool who runs off to battle when a greater risk is right at home.
All four empires fought against the Sansha inhumanity, I suspect all four will eventually join forces to fight against this new Drifter threat. Let's keep our eyes on the ball.
A few large scale brawls does not a crumbling empire create. Do you think the loss of two thousand battleships will cripple the imperial navy? They haven't even reached that level of loss against the Drifters. It has been sub-capital ships, come now let's not lose our sense of scale. Without the loss of a single capital ship the imperial navy teeters on the edge of collapse? Oh if only that were possible!
The insults hurled against our ally the Federation are naively laughable. The bonds between the Republic and the Federation shall not be broken of even dented by any number of foolish IGS rants.
No two states, just like no two people, will agree on everything.
The OP is incorrect in both the assessment of the tactical situation, and the political situation.
Attack Now! That is not a plan, it's a rant.
So here is the possible scenario "Attack Now!" could create, all four empires commit their fleets to combat each other according to current divisions, a significant loss is experienced on all sides. As soon as the losses reach the point where replacement of forces becomes slowed the biggest Drifter fleet seen to date waltzes in and starts picking off the remnants of the imperial fleet, the Sansha not to be outdone launch massive incursions in the other three empires. The major pirate gangs seize the opportunity to expand their spheres of influence and invade low sec and high sec. After all who is left to stop them? This is what you want to trigger possibly?
To the OP, anger at the evil committed against our people and all the other people enslaved by the demonic slavery cult is understandable, rolling the dice for all of humanity in an all out not prepared for Cluster wide war of a scale heretofore unseen is not. War is hell and not to be entered into lightly.
The likelihood that all four will be fighting as allies against the new threat seems infinitely more likely than all out war amongst the empires. To call for war at the time when unity may be required for survival of the human species is so far from reasonable that it borders insanity.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
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Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
626
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Posted - 2015.08.19 05:19:51 -
[79] - Quote
I never thought I'd end up giving a like to Matar Ronin, but he's talking sense. OP should listen to him.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
29
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Posted - 2015.08.19 11:49:23 -
[80] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Goodness knows I would be the last person to say do not attack the slavery cultists, but it is a fool who runs off to battle when a greater risk is right at home.
I might have low understanding of politics and strategics but i learned you need to take risks to achieve what you dream of. How long should our enslaved brothers endure the pains of slavery? How long do we need to decide to help them in a meaningfull way? How long do we wait to see the Amarr Empire to get more weakend by any other threat? I say
No longer we only think and do not take risks! .....we stand up and fight.
No longer we listen to these goddam biggot Amarrian bastards! .....we let our guns speak.
No longer we stand still and let our brothers and sisters endure the slavery! .....we will free our kind.
The time is NOW!
LET THE DOGS OF WAR OUT FIGHT and BURN DOWN THE AMARRIAN SLAVERS FOREVER!!!
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
623
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Posted - 2015.08.19 12:21:08 -
[81] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Goodness knows I would be the last person to say do not attack the slavery cultists, but it is a fool who runs off to battle when a greater risk is right at home. I might have low understanding of politics and strategics but i learned you need to take risks to achieve what you dream of. How long should our enslaved brothers endure the pains of slavery? How long do we need to decide to help them in a meaningfull way? How long do we wait to see the Amarr Empire to get more weakend by any other threat? I say No longer we only think and do not take risks! .....we stand up and fight. No longer we listen to these goddam biggot Amarrian bastards! .....we let our guns speak. No longer we stand still and let our brothers and sisters endure the slavery! .....we will free our kind. The time is NOW! LET THE DOGS OF WAR OUT FIGHT and BURN DOWN THE AMARRIAN SLAVERS FOREVER!!!
And this is exactly why you aren't in the Republic Fleet Command.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
119
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Posted - 2015.08.19 21:18:26 -
[82] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:That depends on what you perceive the lesson to be.
That maybe 'forced conversion at gunpoint' isn't the best way to get results?
And here I was thinking you'd take this discussion moderately seriously..... regardless my shooting back snide comments gains us nothing so perhaps our discussion best end here before we degenerate into petty squabbling. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1087
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Posted - 2015.08.19 21:39:57 -
[83] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Arrendis wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:That depends on what you perceive the lesson to be.
That maybe 'forced conversion at gunpoint' isn't the best way to get results? And here I was thinking you'd take this discussion moderately seriously..... regardless my shooting back snide comments gains us nothing so perhaps our discussion best end here before we degenerate into petty squabbling.
I am taking the discussion seriously. If the Amarr truly wish to convince the masses of the genuine righteousness of their cause, then the way to do it is by leading exemplary lives that leave no room for others to doubt their goodness and piety. Convert by example, not violence. Someone whose life is a thing that others point to and say 'that. the cluster would be a better place if more of us were like that' does far more to convince others to try to look into the beliefs they hold, the things that make them such a source of inspiration, than just rolling up with the biggest guns and blowing the daylights out of a planet full of people who had no warning of the attack.
If the Empire were to take that course - to actually try to be better people than the rest of us, instead of just claim that no matter how despicable their actions, they're better because Magic Man Said SoGäó, they'd be far more persuasive. |
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
29
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Posted - 2015.08.22 01:37:09 -
[84] - Quote
well.....use the death of the leader, what better situation can you get than headshot their leader. Titan exploded soooowonderfull...... |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1133
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Posted - 2015.08.22 01:55:22 -
[85] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:well.....use the death of the leader, what better situation can you get than headshot their leader. Titan exploded soooowonderfull......
Headshots are never a good idea. Headshots rally people to the cause of defending their homes. The better option is always to embarass the leadership and show them to be impotent in defense of their people. |
Kelius Aldent
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.08.22 02:08:47 -
[86] - Quote
Invade Amarr Space? I'd rather fly as far away from Amarr as possible.
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