|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 18:42:09 -
[1] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:It feels like everything I want to do is days and weeks away and I'm just really frustrated with it and am on the fence about continuing to sub and play this game. It gets better after the first year or two.
I hope.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 14:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
InB4 Logi and EWAR are also too skill intensive for newbros too.
:D |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 18:30:30 -
[3] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Obviously you fail at reading sarcasm. Awww, be nice. It's the EVE forums. Most people train ShipToasting V long before they even touch PoastReading II.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 07:07:42 -
[4] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:If you cannot get into the "meat" of the game then lower your expectations to a more reasonable level. I know many 1 and 2 month old characters that are making significant contributions to the corps they belong to. No they cannot fly some of the fancy ships but they are contributing anyway by being willing to do what they can. It seems crazy but in some cases flying ammo runs for a fleet op can be the single most important task there is. Yeah, if you were aiming for a more engaging gameplay experience than "taking the place of one of the fleet member's Industry alts", then maybe you need to learn to lower your expectations. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 15:56:23 -
[5] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:I play Planetside 2 as well since several of my friends like it (and hate EvE) and we enjoy gaming together. We all started PS 2 on the same day and at the exact same time they were all at my house for a game session. Because they are single and can and often do dedicate entire weekends to nothing but playing games their characters have more than triple the experience points and there for better in game items than mine does. You may say this is how it should be and if that is your opinion then you are not meant to play EvE. Wait, you have appreciable time spent in PS2 and want to contrast cert gains negatively to SP progression? Are you high?
PS2 has one of the flattest progression systems outside of the original Doom. Almost every review of Infantry gear will put the starter weapons as best for the class. The few options which do appreciably affect your performance are attainable in a single weekend of play - often in only a couple of hours.
And you want to compare that to EVE's multi-month training to master a single ship hull.
Donnachadh wrote:Part of the reason CCP set up the skills training they way it is was to eliminate this grind based character skills advantage and it is for this very reason that many of us are resistant to changing it because we have lives away from computer games and we like the fac t that we are not disadvantaged in this game because we have those lives. They also set it up to be roughly the same time spent as a grinding MMO. Back when WoW first came out I went completely nolife grinding, and hit level cap in ~3 weeks. Certainly not first, but I was something like top 10 for my class. It was a godawful chore, and I regret doing it.
Somebody who approached the game in a more measured pace would match my "achievement" in several months. Getting 'mastery' of a hull in EVE is roughly the same time investment (at least as far as calendar time spent). Fortunately they don't care if you log in or not anymore, now that we've got a decent skill queue system.
The thing is, in the intervening decade most MMOs have realized that having their casual majority spend months getting to whatever arbitrary cap was set for skill progression was silly. Progression times were reduced, and more recently I've done the same 0-80 in Guild Wars 2 within three weeks - just with far, far less actual grinding.
EVE never caught up to that though. The people who support the glacial pace of progression are still comparing their skill progression to the MMOs of old. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:29:42 -
[6] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:+1 To adjust to modern standards and new player expectations I'd recommend they reduce the time it takes to train skills by half I've frequently said to just outright remove them. SP progression is a game mechanic meant for doing two things:
- Allowing players to learn to master skills one at a time, pacing each new ability out to help prevent them from drowning in complexity.
- Creating a power curve in content, where a player can feel more powerful while encountering ever more challenging content.
EVE doesn't actually have either of those mechanics though.
Even the people talking about EWAR/Suicide Tackle/Frigate Logi/etc for newbros won't go to the extent of suggesting your ship should only be half fit. A new players needs to understand a lot of concepts up front, and there are very few things to discover (insofar as ship fittings/mechanics go) once you've got your first combat frigate built.
There is also very little in the way of power curve. Mission running provides the closest to that sort of "theme park" experience. Everything else is against other players. You're either engineering an encounter where your victim has no chance, or being subjected to n+10 conflict yourself.
Which isn't to say either of those things are wrong, or bad. I'm on board that they are part of the charm of EVE. But it does mean that the arbitrary time wall of SP progression is working in service of game mechanics that don't exist.
Zihao wrote:Given the triviality of module items relative to the traditional mmo, it seems reasonable to say you can participate in comparable "end-game," activities faster in EVE with a reasonable time commitment because almost all of them are more team oriented and less dependent on individual skillpoints or modules being at their apex. That participation is only available because of the "n+10" mechanic inherent in an open world game. There is a reason that the Alliance Tournament has to restrict modules to T2 instead of letting the richest team bring in the most blinged out fits.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 04:38:52 -
[7] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:I'm late to MMOs, started EVE in 2012 for a month, resumed in Sep 2013 and in the time in between had also started playing WoW. Yeah, you definitely skipped the dark times of WoW leveling. If I recall, they made a pretty big effort to enhance the leveling experience during Cataclysm. I wouldn't be able to say much on that though, I had long since stopped playing.
Guild Wars committed the same sin of having their 'end game' be perpetual gear grinding, but at least their leveling was enjoyable enough that I ended up doing it something like 4 times.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 15:51:53 -
[8] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:while that may not make much difference in PS 2 Which was my point. Your analogy would be more "My friend played EVE 3x as long as I did, and now has 3x as many SKINS."
Donnachadh wrote:By the way thank you for providing absolute proof of why we do not want or need the grind for SP in EvE. Agreed.
Donnachadh wrote:CCP has proven over more than 10 years of existence that they do not care about what those other "new games" in town are doing.
...
Not all that relevant but when I started this character he had 0(zero) skill points and I did not get any booster pill, bonus remaps or any of the other things CCP has wisely chosen to add oer the years, No. They don't care at all.
Donnachadh wrote:Remember we too were new players once and we made it through because we adapted. Confirmation bias isn't proof of the exquisite design of the SP system. People "make it through" car accidents, cancer and Beiber Fever too, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the people who don't. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 16:33:40 -
[9] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:As it is now, newbs cannot catch up to vets who have been in the game for years. I'm in general agreement, but this one is like a mailman strapping a steak to their belt.
It isn't that newbs *can't* catch up to vets, but that the wait is far longer than it needs to be (which itself assume there even needs to be a wait). Consider the "time to parity" for MMOs:
WoW: a few weeks, or just buy a 90 (95? 106? It's been a while since I've cared what their current cap is). Planetside: a few hours. Guild Wars 2: 0 hours (though some things are restricted now that they're F2P, I guess?) EVE: 4-6 months.
It's not forever, but it's far longer than it has to be. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 19:10:53 -
[10] - Quote
wrote:I think the fact you actually have to put effort into getting what you want is great, it adds reward. What effort goes into the SP system though? Learning to fly a ship takes a while, true.
Getting the SP to fly a ship on the other hand is the matter of ~45 seconds and a dozen or so mouse clicks.
shadowhearth Eto wrote:It took me a very long time to train flying a battle ship and be able to fit T2 guns back in the day. Though now I am proud of it and those skills mean me a lot more tjen any level in any other mmorpg. Proud of what? What did you do to get those skills?
You clicked on "I'd like to fly Battleships in a couple weeks, please." and then went to "work 4-5 days 11h shifts". |
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.05 21:23:32 -
[11] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:committing to training plan is effort in itself. Well, if committing to a plan and then not touching anything for extended periods of time are your thing, I think I have the game for you. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 00:12:10 -
[12] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:The min/max, "must be level capped fully decked out in best in slot gear", can't play the game until my stats are perfect mentality has no place in this game. Well, other than PVP.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 02:32:17 -
[13] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:patience ,willingness to accept guidance , and big mother****ing balls are all you need to pull something like that off A fully T2 fit Assault Frigate probably doesn't hurt.
But you're right. If you try hard enough, and long enough, you'll eventually find somebody anti-tanked enough with stupid to overcome all the advantages handed to them.
Johnny Riko wrote:Eve PvP is much more than having the best ship/modules/skills. It's also having the best links/drugs.
If PvP was just about having heart, determination and numbers, Brave would own half of nullsec. Eventually you're going to run out of n+1, and you're going to need to pony up some better gear if you want to win. Do you think it's a coincidence that RvB puts "Hey, downship for fights if you have to - don't be a ****" in their FAQ? Or that the Alliance Tournament needs rules about deadspace mods?
Cara Forelli wrote:There are a million examples of successful newbros PVPing with low SP. There's a million examples of newbros killwhoring on gatecamps, or F1-ing when the FC tells them to.
There's also a million examples of newbros getting their ISK pushed in when somebody with some bigger bling to throw at the fight decides to take down a fleet twice their size.
You can certainly participate in PvP with a two week old character. In the same way you could participate in the NFL. The difference is, I don't blame people for aiming a little higher than participation. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 15:19:25 -
[14] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Wow, you're truly ludicrous. I've also got it on good authority I'm "bad" too.
Quote:My point was that a good pvp'er will know how to fit their ship, what type of ships it can engage, and how best to engage. But a "good pvp'er" never has to decide "I can't handle this fight because I'm not skilled/fit enough"?
Quote:Eve isn't a game where you pay more isk to have a bigger sword to swing at people That is precisely what EVE is.
Think you're doing well in your Kestrel? Spend some ISK, upgrade to a Worm. Think your Worm is hot ****? Spend some ISK, upgrade to a Svipul. Think your Svipul is unbeatable tech? Spend some ISK, upgrade to ....
You might not be able to buy a ship that can kill everything, but let's not pretend that ISK can't buy wins. ___________________________________________________________________
There are tasks that don't take millions of SP to do. Even more can be started with low SP. Caladan's wandering salvage service is proof enough of that (grats on the cruiser find btw ).
But I don't get why people insist that all things in EVE can be accomplished with some player knowledge and a little old fashioned gumption. It's not true. You're going to need SP and ISK if you want to compete.
ISK is gated by in game activity. Sure, you could grind out missions for your ISK like most do. Or, like Caladan, you could try something new, get a bit lucky and make your fortune that way.
SP is a different animal. It's just "How much money have I given CCP?". It doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't prepare you for what's ahead, there's no reasoning or purpose to it. That little "Ding! Skill training completed." is just a confirmation that X days/weeks/months ago, you double-clicked a skill.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 16:21:48 -
[15] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:One of Ralph's old corp mates killed a Marauder in an Ishkur at a couple months old. That would be the one he linked to. Ironic, that he was using what I can only imagine was a focus trained AF toon (I can guarantee has a dozen skills to V) as an argument you don't need SP.
And I agree with the idea that a dramatic skill imbalance can overcome an ISK/SP imbalance. But that works both ways, and unless you plan on spending your life enforcing the CODE you're going to have to expect that you're going to get into a fight with somebody who knows what they're doing.
But extremes aren't the only issue. There's also the people who say "It's only 3 months to train" (i.e. the ~6M SP that Ralph says the AF pilot had) as if that wasn't an eternity for a character that's only 15 hours old. Forgetting where and how you start in the game is easily as big an issue.
There's also the people who see character age as a right of passage, which gives them a power they don't want to give up. For as much as people argue that SP aren't important, suggesting that the system should be done away with certainly brings out the fangs.
Maybe the one I find the most aggravating is portraying the newbie roles as something desirable. Those roles which, to be fair, need to be done - but nobody wants to do. So you get the newbro to Logi/EWAR/Suicide Tackle, because they don't really have any choice in the matter. It's all they've got SP for.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 20:25:05 -
[16] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:What I find aggravating is people who discourage newbies from even trying to PVP. Which I'm sure I'm guilty of, even if indirectly and certainly unintentionally. I'm a big fan of organizations like RvB, which have a goal of not just creating content but putting it within a competitive structure. I'm just not sadistic enough to encourage somebody at 2M SP to go try their hand at Solo. Or even try and convince them they're an indispensable part of their corp fleet.
Quote:And the "SP gap" doesn't last nearly as long as people make it out to. That depends a bit on how you measure.
Take Ralph's friend in the AF. Having all the skills in place for that at only 6M SP seems out of place for an actual newbro, so I'm assuming that's an alt. And if so, that means the training queue was probably laser focused on Frigate combat.
A single toon player has to worry about replacing their ship in a way that alts don't. And there aren't a lot of ISK making opportunities in a frigate, so a new player is going to be naturally drawn to the obvious paths - Mining Barges and Mission Ravens. Those eat up millions of SP, and you need your income stream in place before you go losing AFs to Marauder gank attempts at 30M+ a pop.
You're right though, the raw gap is a lot less than it feels when you're starting out. I've been there, done that. Combat readiness seems impossibly far away when you're sitting in a Meta 0 fit Frigate with some modules only having just become available. But as I've said here, and every time the topic comes up, I see no reason that gap even has to exist. I'm not a fan of arbitrary time barriers.
Quote:Passively skilling for a year will not make you any better at PVP and you will still lose your first engagements due to inexperience. And this is part of why. I certainly don't expect somebody to AFK-skill for a year and come out of the gate a champ. But I also know that learning the ropes of PvP takes a lot less time than getting the SP for whatever role you want. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 22:30:13 -
[17] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Nobody said you don't need SP. Well,
Earlier in this thread wrote: Bellatrix Invicta You're combat effective from day one,
Sitting Bull Lakota If you've got prop jamming trained to I you can be deadly in pvp.
ergherhdfgh So I have a brand new Minmatar character with 55K skill points.
Donnachadh SP is not what limits new players, creativity and a willingness to do what they can is what limits their play.
Zihao It's an open-ended single-shard game where individual skillpoints matter very little in the grand scheme of things.
except for those people who did.
But to be fair, just as many people said "Weeks to train? Ha! I've been training for years, HTFU and just go do something else for a while."
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:58:31 -
[18] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:What I can say is that these roles that you are calling "newbie roles" are not such because that is all that their skill points will allow or anything like that. Low SP is exactly why newbies get thrust into those roles.
Tackle doesn't care about your SP totals. Pointed is pointed - end of story. DPS on the other hand is very skill intensive. Easily half the DPS available to your hull is unlocked through SP. Logi and Ewar are also quick to get up to effectiveness. Those modules don't require anywhere near as much support SP, and are often a binary on/off effect regardless.
I'm also completely aware of suitonia, and his hilarious video. I'm not won over on the idea of low SP PvP by the idea my combat frigate is capable of killing anti-tanked Interceptors and Stealth Bombers. He got those kills fairly, but showing me that at 17 days old I'm going to be counting on my targets to make grave errors in judgement, and even then I'll barely be able to kill ships that I'm flying the hard counter to isn't making a great case. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 21:25:20 -
[19] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:what a super boring way to make such a tiny amount of isk Ouch. At least as far as EVE's stupid SP system goes 7 days is a pretty light punishment for that sort of mis-training. Long, long ago I did the same thing - only I spent months training up to get L4 missions for my income.
At least the core SP transfers well.
Best I can suggest is what you're doing with the arranged duels. Hunt around to find something you enjoy, and then find something you're willing to tolerate to earn your ISk to do the fun stuff. With luck, you'll have the SP to do the latter quickly enough to get back to the former and stay subbed. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:42:59 -
[20] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:So you think it would be easier for new players if they had access to Titans from day one? Yes.
|
|
|
|
|