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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2008.02.06 16:18:00 -
[61]
If 0.0 or low-sec would be as easy as OP wants it to be....that day i quit eve.
If you take out all the risk and effort you have to put into getting into 0.0 - setting up a home there just to get acces to the riches of it then i would see no use of 0.0 at all and just put all the good ores and complexes in empire , wich will make the game BORING as hell.
And the backstabbing you mentioned and all is also the best part of eve just as orethieves and scammers are.
And just before the OP thinks i belong to one of the "bullies" , i am an empire carebear but i know my place in eve , maybe time for you to find out what is your place in this great universe.
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Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.09 22:22:00 -
[62]
Some of us are fuzzy bunnies!!
But seriously, anyone who thinks 0.0 is like gangland or some wild west has never lived out here. The prospect of 0.0 used to terrify me, but now I think empire is a steaming stew of scum and villany compared to most 0.0 space.
Don't judge 0.0 by CAOD or the complaints of people being ganked in lowsec or 0.0 chokepoints.
A lot of really good suggestions have been made in this thread. If you want to get into 0.0, try some of these.
In general tho, you need to understand that in NBSI space, any non-blue is looking to: 1. shoot you 2. bait you to shoot you 3. scout you to shoot you 4. be shot at by you.
It's pretty much a "if you behave, we'll behave, as long as we're blue" situation. There are other types of standings (NRDS comes to mind), but in general alliances aren't bullies, just very cautious. So, I suggest getting standings, operating out of NPC 0.0 for awhile, and learn the habits that keep out alive out here ;)
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Darth Plague
Amarr Centurians
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Posted - 2008.02.12 18:18:00 -
[63]
Actualy the solution is very simple.There is such a gap between the older players and new players that the new players have no chance of ever being able to compete for 0.0 unless you can get 2k members. The only viable solution is to make another server so the new players can compete,where every one can start on even ground.The old players that control most if not all of 0.0 oppose this idea .You may ask why and the main reason is they make alot of isks off of the ppl who are trapped in empire.The large old alliances learned their lesson very well when the Goons left empire for low sec and 0.0 ,that is one of the reasons you see so many small griefer corps in empire so as to keep another empire corp or alliance from getting large enough to compete.One of the alarming things I have seen tends to be once a empire corp reaches around 100 members it is relentlessly war dec'ed out of existance.Because this keeps happening over and over and over it can be assumed that alot of these empire pirate corps were formed by the large 0.0 alliances just to make sure no one gets large enough to be able to compete in 0.0 . Darth Plague
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Sexay Faye
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Posted - 2008.02.12 22:19:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Darth Plague
The only viable solution is to make another server ... Darth Plague
thats a stupid idea and you should feel stupid
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Darth Plague
Amarr Centurians
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Posted - 2008.02.13 02:12:00 -
[65]
By your very lame response you must be one of the older players .One of the ones that want to keep all the newer players trapped in empire so you can make some isks off of them.Starting up a new server would even the playing field for every one that wants to be able to start on even footing with every one else.I can understand why the older players don't want a new server because if they went there they wouldnt have the awsome advantages they have on the current server.I have around 2 and a half years in this game so far and I would leave the old server for a new one in a heart beat.Why? Because I would be able to start on a server where no one has a advantage. Darth Plague
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Dionisius
Gallente Critical Analysis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.02.13 06:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Darth Plague Actualy the solution is very simple.There is such a gap between the older players and new players that the new players have no chance of ever being able to compete for 0.0 unless you can get 2k members. The only viable solution is to make another server so the new players can compete,where every one can start on even ground.The old players that control most if not all of 0.0 oppose this idea .You may ask why and the main reason is they make alot of isks off of the ppl who are trapped in empire.The large old alliances learned their lesson very well when the Goons left empire for low sec and 0.0 ,that is one of the reasons you see so many small griefer corps in empire so as to keep another empire corp or alliance from getting large enough to compete.One of the alarming things I have seen tends to be once a empire corp reaches around 100 members it is relentlessly war dec'ed out of existance.Because this keeps happening over and over and over it can be assumed that alot of these empire pirate corps were formed by the large 0.0 alliances just to make sure no one gets large enough to be able to compete in 0.0 . Darth Plague
That is not true mate, many new players can be successfull and gain access to 0.0 alliances or whatever they pretty much want. Its basicly a question of were your goals are at, you want to PVP?In 0.0?Lowsec? Build a corp? What kind of corp, pvp/merc/pirate/industrial?
What do you want to do ? roleplay or just empire build and see were it leads you?
Lots of new alliances poping up and with lots of new players in them.
Pirates and wardecs in high sec have always existed and are part of the fun in the game. _____________________________________ I pay beer for new sig.
- Sorry for the trouble Mits. |
hezie99
Caldari KNIGHTS OF THE RED SUN Soul of Fountain
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Posted - 2008.02.13 15:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Darth Plague By your very lame response you must be one of the older players .One of the ones that want to keep all the newer players trapped in empire so you can make some isks off of them.Starting up a new server would even the playing field for every one that wants to be able to start on even footing with every one else.I can understand why the older players don't want a new server because if they went there they wouldnt have the awsome advantages they have on the current server.I have around 2 and a half years in this game so far and I would leave the old server for a new one in a heart beat.Why? Because I would be able to start on a server where no one has a advantage. Darth Plague
problems with that is it would leave alot of older players thinking they had wasted there time.
just dont become like me im a true eve nomad u dont know where ill pop up next :P
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Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2008.02.13 15:21:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Janu Hull on 13/02/2008 15:21:56
Originally by: Darth Plague There is such a gap between the older players and new players that the new players have no chance of ever being able to compete for 0.0 unless you can get 2k members.
HA! Wrong. I have 13 million skillpoints and I struggle a bit to keep the bills paid and the ships flying when things get hot in 0.0. One of the guys in my corp who's a nominal billionaire who manages to keep the industry machine running has two characters and never seems to be without a ship. His combat pilot, who's a better PvPer than I am, has 4 million skill points (he flies Interceptors, I fly Battleships). His industry toon has almost 7 million. Seven million skillpoints, and the man has run almost a dozen POSes while I was struggling with plexes.
Skill points are an unbelievably superficial way of metering capability.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device. |
Phillip Stergo
Minmatar Delta Network
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Posted - 2008.02.13 18:40:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Phillip Stergo on 13/02/2008 18:49:20
Originally by: Dante Fugazi Where I come from if a schoolyard bully with 6 of his peon buddies says "give me your lunch money" you hand it to him with a big smile and come back with 12 of YOUR friends the next day to take it back in the price of blood.
This type of thing happens here too, several alliances have this kind of attitude towards the guys that abuses the power that they are holding, and the bullies replies this attitude when they are sure that they will win, resulting a never-ending circle of violence. This is a violent game, and pending to be more rewarding to harsh people, as the real world. Well, saying this, I'll share a thinking that I had, If this resembles the real world, why must I loss time here, trying to deal with scammers, robbers, thieves, etc.? Bah, I'd rather do it in the real world then, so I'll take a real bullet in my head, dealing with this issues in the real life, trying to solve rl issues, doing something of meaning, instead to have a never ending stress in this game (coz u can't die here). I hope that someday CCP creates a part of the game that allows to the guy can be far from this schemes, if they wants and have enough intelligence/wisdom to do it. So, taking advantage of this opportunity, I inform to my known mates that I'm having a break of game. See ya.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2008.02.15 16:41:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Darth Plague By your very lame response you must be one of the older players .One of the ones that want to keep all the newer players trapped in empire so you can make some isks off of them.Starting up a new server would even the playing field for every one that wants to be able to start on even footing with every one else.I can understand why the older players don't want a new server because if they went there they wouldnt have the awsome advantages they have on the current server.I have around 2 and a half years in this game so far and I would leave the old server for a new one in a heart beat.Why? Because I would be able to start on a server where no one has a advantage. Darth Plague
I really don't understand where you are getting this from.I am an empire carebear at the moment doing research and building.I have about 20 mille in skillpoints.I lived in pure blind for over a year without too many blue standings ..when my character had 6 million skillpoints and in a small corp. What i am trying to say is that skillpoints doesn't have to predict the region you live in.It's your own choice and you have ALL the opportunities to go to 0.0 even as a younger eve player.You just have to think about what you want and how you can get there.
As mentioned i really really don't know where you guys are getting all this 'only the big skillpointers have 0.0 acces' from because i have never had any problems regarding my skillpoints deciding if i should have acces to 0.0 or not.Sure bigger alliances control larger parts and can 'harass' you but hey they started out small too.
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gpfault
Muppet Brigade
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Posted - 2008.02.16 09:20:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Darth Plague By your very lame response you must be one of the older players .One of the ones that want to keep all the newer players trapped in empire so you can make some isks off of them.Starting up a new server would even the playing field for every one that wants to be able to start on even footing with every one else.I can understand why the older players don't want a new server because if they went there they wouldnt have the awsome advantages they have on the current server.I have around 2 and a half years in this game so far and I would leave the old server for a new one in a heart beat.Why? Because I would be able to start on a server where no one has a advantage. Darth Plague
Sounds great, now I can get 2000 noobs together and take over 0.0. I guess CCP will have to make another server so the noobs a fair chance. Then I can do it again, and again, and again until I realise I'm playing WoW in space.
This is a stupid idea and you should feel stupid.
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Lara Renquist
Minmatar The Phoenix Confederacy
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Posted - 2008.02.19 07:57:00 -
[72]
If you are not able to force your way into 0.0 or negotiate (either way, i prefer the pew pew) then you A: Don't belong in 0.0 B: Don't belong in EvE
Do you have any idea about the history of some terretory's? blood has been spilled in abundance, you cannot expect to be at the same par as the big alliances.
You cannot expect them to move aside to let new players get a shot. Simply put, give me 1 mmo heck even 1 online game where you as the so called "Newbie" are allowed to place yourself against the big players... let alone give you some of there terretory.
(btw. i smell wow in many posts)
Commanding officer Of The Phoenix Confederacy
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Oloran Tadin
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Posted - 2008.02.20 11:33:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Darth Plague By your very lame response you must be one of the older players .One of the ones that want to keep all the newer players trapped in empire so you can make some isks off of them.Starting up a new server would even the playing field for every one that wants to be able to start on even footing with every one else.I can understand why the older players don't want a new server because if they went there they wouldnt have the awsome advantages they have on the current server.I have around 2 and a half years in this game so far and I would leave the old server for a new one in a heart beat.Why? Because I would be able to start on a server where no one has a advantage. Darth Plague
Firstly, WoW is that way ---->
Secondly, I'm gonna give you two examples of alliances who started in lowsec/NPC space and who turned out to be 0.0 landowners now.
The first one is GoonSwarm who proved that even noobs with 1Mil SP can fly a frigate with a scram and be usefull in combat. Concerning their territory...well, just take a look at the map. The second one is BRUCE, they started out in syndicate and started growing and organising. Then when the time was right, they took their chance and now own a huge part of the Fountain region.
I'm sorry that for some of you EVE doesn't have an easy mode and you actually have to work to achieve something for a change. I suggest if you can't handle it, just leave and don't come back.
Cheers
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Captain Ferros
Caldari Expeditionary Fleet 1 Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.02.21 16:45:00 -
[74]
My corporation is living proof that you dont need 2k members for 0.0 access.
Imagine this... a corp started in Feb 2006, by 3 week old noobs.
We began doing what was needed. mission running, money making, empire mining... and growing on our way by accepting those who were willing to work hard.
We then had a good number of battleship/battlecruiser pilots, looking now to expand to low/0.0
Feb 2007, we became rentors of ka-tet. How? amazing how people will pauseand not kill you if you fly up to a shuttle and speak in local about wanting to talk to a diplomat :P
We did the possible, and joined in under a 100 milllion a week rent as it was back then. We became a founding corp of te-ka...and built our first capital
and in Jan 2008, we became a member of ka-tet, and we are still growing, looking at outpost ownership
We are proof that 0.0 access is not as grim as you say.
--------------- Captain Ferros Command Fleet Admiral Admin Fleet Cmdr Expeditionary Fleet 1 Ka-tet
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Deathifier
Minmatar Carebears Must Die Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.02.21 22:22:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Captain Ferros My corporation is living proof that you dont need 2k members for 0.0 access.
Imagine this... a corp started in Feb 2006, by 3 week old noobs.
We began doing what was needed. mission running, money making, empire mining... and growing on our way by accepting those who were willing to work hard.
We then had a good number of battleship/battlecruiser pilots, looking now to expand to low/0.0
Feb 2007, we became rentors of ka-tet. How? amazing how people will pauseand not kill you if you fly up to a shuttle and speak in local about wanting to talk to a diplomat :P
We did the possible, and joined in under a 100 milllion a week rent as it was back then. We became a founding corp of te-ka...and built our first capital
and in Jan 2008, we became a member of ka-tet, and we are still growing, looking at outpost ownership
We are proof that 0.0 access is not as grim as you say.
Not bad renting a 0.0 system for under 100 mil a month. I know of several alliances holding low sec systems in placid that charge several hundred million isk per month for access. and tbh, you won't make much more mining rocks in low sec than highsec
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH
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Posted - 2008.02.23 21:34:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Chucky 0.0 blows since the new sovereignty rules, only very large alliances have the recourses to take and hold regions. Only 0.0 has the resources to build a very large alliance.
Much like life the rich get richer and the poor get screwed.
The first part was right-ish, the last part was wrong. The rich get richer until the poor corps/alliances, having taken their time, laid careful plans, networked with other poor corps/alliances, toiled under the rich alliances (as renters/pets/whatever you want to call it) or made friends among those alliances in order to coexist as genuine friends (easier than you'd think - you just have to learn how to play in the great sandbox) finally have all their ducks in a row and can rise up into a position of power, assured of the support of their friends and allies.
Suggested reading: "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli, "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene.
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Termina Pax
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.25 22:26:00 -
[77]
Zero-Zero is just fine. Way less un-sequenced genetrash tryin to scam ya too. Just gotta lose yer fear, ya know? Maybe train up fer covert-ops and explore it yerself kinda immune and ya don't even need to join nobody yet. And NOBODY f'in ransoms in 0.0 unless yer some total tool corp that's gotta dread in some hostile station after a standings reset. Jump on in, the water's fine . . . .
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Arelius Sarum
Amarr Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.28 12:08:00 -
[78]
Most alliances, certainly the major ones, will kill you on sight if you enter their space so you don't have to worry about paying "protection". I welcome you if you try to come and stomp us though. We could always use the extra pew pew. Per Ardua ad Astra - Through Adversity, to the Stars
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Centurion Clorell
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Posted - 2008.02.28 23:45:00 -
[79]
End of the day 0.0 is like the old wild west. Now these large (and small) alliances who operate there have their own different rules regarding recruitment, diplomacy, naps etc specifically designed to benefit them. The individual may not like it but in the grand scheme of things it benefits all those involved with the alliance. Without the rules it would be anarchy every man for himself and nobody would benefit from 0.0. It's not bullying it's the law of the land, and the peeps who are in the large alliances setting the rules where like you at some point and had to start at the bottom rung of the ladder and work their way up. As for noobs going into 0.0, loads of alliances recruit noobs however some have a waiting period b4 you join. The reason being is to benefit you if you went out in a tech 1/2 ship with poor skills it wouldn't be long b4 you get shot down by an npc or even a pvper then where would you be? Already been said their not bullies, they're just careful in who they trust with what has taken them so long to get.
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Moggy TheCat
Arte et Labore
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Posted - 2008.03.02 16:30:00 -
[80]
i was thinking for a long time if to reply or say nothing in this thread
But there are some points that makes this subject "bullies or not" interesting.
If I want to be diplomatic i should not answer at all, but if you take RL there is much to say
first of all, its all bull**** about "its easy to join or first live in NPC 00" (there is a big ROFL)
some alliances claim that they are not bullies and wrote as the sun comes out of their ass, because they need the reputation, but inside their space, their is nothing like their writing.....
other alliances are straight forward and say YES we are, thats what we can live with no corners no catch, but they are the same OLD Ally way "its mine and we dont share".
anyway
whats all about these 00-ally`s ? Are their founder ( skill Megacorp V ) still in this Ally or was these ally founded by a char who sold this service because the lack of skills and time
( it would be funny to see what happend if ccp declares that all will be terminated if one or more basic condition are missing) [ie. 1- if the standing for the highsec pos went missing the pos goes offline 2- if the Alliance founder leaves the Alliance (or the skill went missing, the Alliance will be terminated. 3- if within the corp the corporation management is missing because ceo leaves and no one has the skill to do the job, the corp will be terminated and so on...]
Are these Ally`s are carebears ? do not allow small corps to use "their" unused space because this small corp could be an enemy or too dangerous for them?
on the other hand they do allow bigger corps to join because they need cannon fodder for their fun (roaming gangs) or wars
i know about all these smacktalks ,border skirmish, the roaming gangs, and all whats about the logistics the team work, but i which that all these fabulous leaders and diplomat¦s thinks back to the times when they were noobs, back to the time when the new regions grew and had to be claimed
one hand gives the other hand, one man could fight, the other one could build they were working together.
but now they have their pets ( they dont know that they are pets because they have some income) a few ppl get all the wealth claiming one sys after another or just saying we control this area ( npc 00 )
BUT WHY much of all these systems are unused and some systems are only on temporarily usage or even unclaimed in "their" space
to give a statement to a single player, yes it is easy to get into 00
to give a statement to a corp under 5 player, NOWAY these 00-alliances are not able to think about basics, quality and teamwork they just see what they have and who is the next "red" or neutral and they dont like any independence in their own lines or why should they recruit new players but no new corp und 15 ppl??
Back to the roots ! this game is not all about some belt-rats or plexes sure some fast isk , who will say "no" but there is more, invention , reactions, building, at least explorations take your time and have a look around the toys you use, what are the requirements to build it ? u can`t go and build a titan or a mom easily No that requires a building, which requires some souverenity which requires ... and so on and this is not only on those ships, there are even more types of modules buildings and minerals.
sure some will say " what are u talking about" we have a production chain i dont need to think about sure some will say we dont need it we have enuogh pew pew for it
but for how long?? a year or 2 ,a month ... if all 00 Alliances are still on their point as they are atm. it will be a short time
take a look inside your ally , your corp there are only a few ppl who are thinking about other things than boring belt-rats and quick iskies
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Cautet
Precision Engineering Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.04 12:54:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Cautet on 04/03/2008 12:59:06 1. If you want to just get yourself into a Corp in any old 0.0 Alliance as a low skilled player it's not very difficult. I think eve university should be the first step on this road, to get the knowledge and understanding that will mean a potential alliance won't have to babysit your arse. 2. If you want to get your corp into a 0.0 Alliance it is much more difficult. There are good reasons for this, but mostly it's because you control who is in your corp better, so the less corps in an alliance is better, so each corp needs good attitude, good control, and good numbers.
To be honest, from the comments made in the opening post, i'm not sure that you really understand what 0.0 is, or rather what it can be.
Living in 0.0 is expensive for the individual, and also usually for the corps and the alliances, unless you join a carebear alliance who controls space that no-one else wants, in which case you can make around the same isk in empire. Yes, if alliance controls some good moons it can make some decent isk, but alliances also face huge costs for living in 0.0 and have to made substantial logistical military and time investments.
To be honest if you are just interested in making isk then stay in empire. You can make more money trading and missioning without the risk.
For the person who mentioned about empire wardecs - it's not some grand conspiracy. If you see a corp with 50 to 100 members stuck in empire alot of people see a nice big tasty target. If you see this as a bad thing you are a nice big tasty target, and the corp isn't ready for even lowsec, let alone 0.0
In 0.0 you should be ready to fight for every scrap and then fight to keep it. You should enjoy the fighting and become bored and listless when local is blue. The sight of a drake or raven on scan should make you drool and hunger.
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Nick Bison
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:42:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Nick Bison on 21/04/2008 19:42:48
Originally by: Moggy TheCat i was thinking for a long time if to reply or say nothing in this thread ... take a look inside your ally , your corp there are only a few ppl who are thinking about other things than boring belt-rats and quick iskies
By God, Sir. I am glad you decided to write. Your missive should be a preamble for all to read whether they are living in 0.0 or intend to some day.
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WishBlade
Caldari Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:34:00 -
[83]
Topic trolls, and drags.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.22 15:31:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Dante Fugazi I'm pretty new to eve, but after talking to many people in game, and reading the forums a pretty clear picture of 0.0 alliances is starting to come together for me. Stop me if I'm wrong, and please enlighten my ignorance if that is the case. Am I the only one who see's 0.0 alliance as schoolyard bullies, and lying thieves?
No you are not the only one to see this.
Quote: Sure you can pay not to be podded (dirty and underhanded mob tactics) but the moment one of their pilots get bored, your toast regaurdless of whether you payed their "protection fee" if you can call it that, as it's not protection, just a half promise not to pod you (maybe). It seems the larger the alliance, the more dirty and underhanded they are, claiming entire regions as their property, charging higher "protection" fee's.
Taking the territorial principle from the dirtside planetary enclosures into space on the frontier. If you are weak enough to be bullied into paying "protection money" what makes you think the bullies will ever stop asking for more?
Quote: Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks these guys need to be wiped out.
No, you are not the only one who thinks that. But thinking that doesn't make it happen - arm yourself friend, learn guerrilla techniques, hit and run, survival and temper your heart because you are going to have get a lot of killing done before the dawn comes to this long night of the human soul.
Quote: Are there alliances trying to stomp these guys for the sake of doing the right thing? or is it just other bullies trying to take over so they can be the new bully?
99% of 0.0 is bullies fighting bullies for bullying rights. Make yourself part of the 1% and fight back. Nobody can free you from the outside.
CSM Election Manifesto 2008 |
BOldMan
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.24 11:17:00 -
[85]
In fact behavior of aliances is perfect natural. Only a singural person cannot understand what mean people grouping toghether to complete higher tasks.
Just join to an alliance, live and work (yes, a ccp mistake induce in this game) for few months, and you will understand why you need to kill and harras everything is not blue to you.
And thinking they are bullies when they isk charge or killed you when get in their space, well, this is sparta.
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TrevHead
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.25 21:10:00 -
[86]
0.0 is great and having low skillpoints isnt as much of a handicap as u think, aslong as u are with good ppl who work together.
The hardest part about 0.0 is ppls fear of it. I was in 0.0 when i was only a couple of months old. Alot of my corpies at that time where noobs who where alittle older then me but they just stayed in empire running missions because they were too scared to fly the nest.
I made loads of isk and enjoyed pvp when a big war started of which we lost in the end. Apart from pvping i lost only 1 hauller in the whole 3 to 4 months i was up there, because i wasnt scared of 0.0 and took every percaution to keep safe eg safespot,check local,use intel channel.
My corpies in empire where always skint cos they were losing ships in lv4 missions and some of em quit the game because of that. If only they would of opened their minds up and loosed the fear.
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Xelous
Rampart Shield
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Posted - 2008.04.28 19:36:00 -
[87]
I can only agree with the OP: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=759851
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Nithon
Minmatar 7th Space Cavalry R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.05 15:16:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Darth Plague Actualy the solution is very simple.There is such a gap between the older players and new players that the new players have no chance of ever being able to compete for 0.0 unless you can get 2k members. ....
i iz 5month old i iz in 0.0 i haz fun :)
Also ... Possum !!! Nithon |
Admiral Derooy
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.05.06 15:29:00 -
[89]
Quote: Some of us are fuzzy bunnies!!
I strongly object!! |
Ferkimer Burns
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.06 20:44:00 -
[90]
You have my permission to bully them right back.
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