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CSM Council Members Kicking and Muting eachother like Children

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Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:57:00 - [151] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.) How about you reason your way out of it? How about you get the logs which have been quoted here and in other places for your convenience and make an argument as to why this member was being disruptive? Because the way i see it is the opposite. That when things didn't go your way you had a hissy fit and attempted to change the outcome in various ways. The first time you redefined the outcome of a vote that didn't go your way, the second time you badgered two CSMs to change their vote in a vote that they had already voted in!
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:59:00 - [152] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 16:55:15 Originally by: Slash Harnet Good ol' CSM members, if you're reading this, you may want to look at getting a neutral NON-VOTING parliamentarian to run your meetings. The kind of bias in those logs is inexcusable for someone running that kind of meeting. That a Chair can be neutral and unbiased during a meeting, and assist the parties present through the discussions (and remove themselves from the chair temporarily if they wish to say something about the subject under discussion) is not a difficult thing to achieve. I've done it and I'm sure other members of the CSM have, just as I'm certain many forum readers / EVE pilots generally have. It shouldn't be the case that we need some referee in there alongside the Chair. In the elections I was the ninth person to be seated in the Council, but the rules say we are all equal once we are serving on the CSM. That appears to be regularly forgotten by some (hence my reminding them) and though I didn't get overwhelming support I was elected and thus I serve all pilots throughout EVE, not just those who voted for me. I am not answerable to my corp or alliance (indeed you may have noted disagreements I've had with my corp's leader on the forums!) and don't have to 'politik' my statements or decisions other than to do what I believe is in the best interests of all pilots. I would like to believe that last night's meeting was an aberration and we will move on positively in future. IZ ps. Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Two of Nine isn't "primarily" sfaiaa ... Inanna, do you speak for all CSM's as being comfortable to raising objections after what has transpired?
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:05:00 - [153] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 17:06:21 Originally by: Pnuka Inanna, do you speak for all CSM's as being comfortable to raising objections after what has transpired? At all times I speak for myself; I could not say what others may or may not believe. When I speak for myself I try to best represent the interests of all EVE players and not my personal belief or play style. I will, however, continue to query whomever is in the chair if they make a statement contrary to the agreed position or fail to explain themselves or their actions. That is the duty of any member of any committee or Council and despite the bullying / ongoing threats I will not change that. If pilots do not feel I did a good job then they can choose to not support me at the next elections; if they believe I did right then they can vote for me. It is called democracy and, in my opinion, is better than autocracy. I think there is a quote something like "Here I was elected, Here I stand and fight for them all". IZ My principles
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:09:00 - [154] Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? It's unfortunate that the CSM has turned out like this, and that there's so much bad feeling in the air about it. Actually, it borders on being dissapointing to be honest. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:16:00 - [155] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? We have an agenda, rep starts bringing up a topic not on the agenda = Chair (moderation) "thats not on the agenda, please disregard that topic." We have a topic, rep starts talking about a different topic = Chair (moderation) "thats not the topic please return to the topic." We have a vote, rep starts debating other people's voting choices = Chair (moderation) "please refrain from interfering with the process of the vote" Etc etc etc. Moderation of a meeting does not mean censorship. It means that you are doing what you can to ensure the agenda items get raised, introduced, everyone who has a desire to speak on it gets to speak and say their piece, and then a vote happens, results are recorded. Without some kind of moderation what is to stop the meeting simply arguing about the first agenda item for 2 hours and getting nowhere? Quote: It's unfortunate that the CSM has turned out like this, and that there's so much bad feeling in the air about it. Actually, it borders on being dissapointing to be honest. 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [156] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? We have an agenda, rep starts bringing up a topic not on the agenda = Chair (moderation) "thats not on the agenda, please disregard that topic." We have a topic, rep starts talking about a different topic = Chair (moderation) "thats not the topic please return to the topic." We have a vote, rep starts debating other people's voting choices = Chair (moderation) "please refrain from interfering with the process of the vote" Etc etc etc. Moderation of a meeting does not mean censorship. It means that you are doing what you can to ensure the agenda items get raised, introduced, everyone who has a desire to speak on it gets to speak and say their piece, and then a vote happens, results are recorded. Without some kind of moderation what is to stop the meeting simply arguing about the first agenda item for 2 hours and getting nowhere? Restating votes in terms other than the ones which were actually voted on then muting people for calling you on it IS censorship. The things you're referring to don't appear to be in the logs.
Gone'Postal Scoopex The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [157] Oh man that chat log is GOLD... Keep up the "good" work people I need more lulz Jade Constantine We really need a What A Dong emote. Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [158] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 17:20:45 Originally by: Jade Constantine What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Quoting for posterity. Keep digging yourself deeper. The most frustrating part of this all is your inability to accept responsibility for your actions. You don't even seem to realise why what you did was wrong. Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". **** you. If the CSM doesn't remove you from chair its a failure that should be put on all of them.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:22:00 - [159] 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. Wow.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:24:00 - [160] One word. Narcissism.

shuckstar Hauling hogs CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:26:00 - [161] Originally by: Jamie Hara Edited by: Jamie Hara on 09/06/2008 04:37:36 You can't really blame CCP though. They didn't vote for the candidate(s) that obviously aren't up to the task of acting like adults. edit: Link to the log in question: http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf Be warned, it's very long. I can blame CCP they thought up the crappy thing, Anyway you CSM guys you act like a bunch of kids. I hope CCP dont pull it or scrap it tho, becuase if all the CSM meetings are gonna be as imature as that one, you will feed me with LOL's for a long time to come. Shows we elected a bunch of morons mostly. Next vote i wont bother.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:33:00 - [162] Originally by: Anton Marvik Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". Lol, don't make me laugh. A few dozen goon forum trolls and assorted hangers on is not "the community." Seriously, get over yourselves guys. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:36:00 - [163] Originally by: Jade Constantine Seriously, get over yourselves guys. Are you familiar with the term "Irony"?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:37:00 - [164] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Anton Marvik Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". Lol, don't make me laugh. A few dozen goon forum trolls and assorted hangers on is not "the community." Seriously, get over yourselves guys. There is more "support" for this issue than there is for any of the issues you personally pushed onto the agenda under the guise of "community support"
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:39:00 - [165] 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Team Minmatar
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:40:00 - [166] Originally by: Anton Marvik Are you familiar with the term "Irony"? In before Goon Conspiracy, ohwait. You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:41:00 - [167] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. Yep, you're right. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:41:00 - [168] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Has he come out somewhere and said he was paraphrasing? I asked him what he was doing and he is ignoring me.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Anton Marvik Are you familiar with the term "Irony"? In before Goon Conspiracy, ohwait. You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. You keep telling yourself it's only goons. Just like you told yourself you had won some vote for moderation capability. Just like you told yourself that Inanna was being disruptive. Just like you told yourself that the chat logs show anything other than you being a tit. I think you're on meds.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:44:00 - [170] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

Drago Vanguard Vanguard Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:45:00 - [171] Edited by: Drago Vanguard on 09/06/2008 17:47:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. There's plenty of non-Goons criticizing your immaturity and unprofessionalism, along with fellow CSM reps.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:51:00 - [172] Originally by: Jade Constantine In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. I think you've got the wrong guy. Also, how would I be able to see for myself if you're on meds? Would I rifle through your purse? I'm an ******* not a creep.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:56:00 - [173] Originally by: Pnuka Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Has he come out somewhere and said he was paraphrasing? I asked him what he was doing and he is ignoring me. Jade tried to paraphrase the first vote on the alternate member. It didn't seem self-motivated and there is a clear understanding that there are logs to make sure he doesn't twist and turn votes into something other than what they where. But moderators don't need to do that. They do get a mute button in meetings. They can pull the room aside to make sure they are on track. There was nothing malicious about what Jade did in that log. There is something Darius JOHNSON did and that was try to undermine Jade's postition at every opportunity he could. Its pathetic. Everything he said boiled down to, "who the hell do you think you are?" The funny thing is people are complaining about the time in that log. They want to get it done. Jade muted someone who kept dragging it off topic late into the meeting. Bane even wanted it to be over. A goon. Jade decides to put the majority of the members ahead of one and gave a warning. That is what I saw. This is turning out to be a really poor soap. Jade stated he already wanted to step down as CSM chair well before the incident. What else do you want from the guy seriously. Its nothing but a big target unless a goon with a forum brigade gets the position and keeps the threads rolling in their favor by volumes of worthless circle jerking threads. Might as well just shut down the CSM and let CCP write it off as a lost cause. Team Minmatar
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:57:00 - [174] Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. As for your other points, I'm not saying that a meeting shouldn't be chaired. I'm questioning what the hell the point is in a meeting when people who're taking part can't put their viewpoints across because they're silenced by an overzealous channel moderator. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Gone'Postal Scoopex The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:59:00 - [175] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. He might not be, but i'm looking forward to you trying to "mute" people when your in Iceland. It's a lot harder without the button Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:05:00 - [176] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. What are the Icelandic laws if a public brawl or fight takes place? What is CCP's stance on it? Cause, judging by the way the forums have exploded and judging by how people are reacting, there might be a fight. People could be more polite in person. Or not.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:07:00 - [177] Originally by: Letouk Mernel What are the Icelandic laws if a public brawl or fight takes place? CCP could always claim it is a sporting event, Sumo Wrestling.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:10:00 - [178] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 18:10:19 Originally by: Kaylana Syi But moderators don't need to do that. Begs the question "Why did Jade do that". Its quite clear that Jade editorialized, not once, but twice, the vote that Hardin put forward. Then, when someone questioned said editorializing, Jade got indignant that they were "disrupting the meeting". Bull**, the editorializing was disrupting the meeting. Objections are only disruptive when they are frivolous. Was it? Certainly not. If its not(and it wasn't), then the disruption is caused by the person doing whatever was objectionable. In both instances, the first when Jade editorialized a vote that had gone against her way and the second when Jade badgered two people who voted in a manner that did not suit her needs to change their vote on an issue she wanted passed it was Jade who was doing the disrupting. Quote:** Jade stated he already wanted to step down as CSM chair well before the incident Then why hasn't Jade done so, the CSM document provides provisions for said step down and Jade had read the CSM document at the time of making said claim. It seems, that when someone makes a claim in full knowledge of what that claim means, then they don't follow through on that claim when the time comes to do so they were lying about their original intent.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:10:00 - [179] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. As for your other points, I'm not saying that a meeting shouldn't be chaired. I'm questioning what the hell the point is in a meeting when people who're taking part can't put their viewpoints across because they're silenced by an overzealous channel moderator. I stand by that moderation decision 100%. I don't care if 10,000 goons get up on their hind legs and cry primal soliloquies to the moon about this. If a disruptive CSM member is preventing us getting the business of the meeting done then I believe the Chair has the right to temp mute them to get the business of the vote underway. This wasn't about stopping discussion - the person in question had their say (many times) and their objections were noted - but the group wanted to move to the vote and get it done. Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone, but I believe getting through the agenda items and properly representing the player base that voted for us is more important than listening to pointless circular arguments that have already been stated in the course of the meeting. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:11:00 - [180] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 09/06/2008 18:13:17 lol. and she just keeps going. like the duracell bunny but... less professional. what i like the most: writing it off as a goon campaign when clearly several members of the council have raised their concerns about her behaviour and so have a lot of other (non-goons) people. how can one be that delusional? yes, jade constantine, you actually ****ed a whole lot of people off. and it will come and bite you. lets see how your self importance goes once you've lost your e-powers.



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