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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:12:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Kelsin
Whether or not they had the right to do so is the question. It depends on whether there are rules of order or whether any CSM rep can shout whatever they want wheneve they want.
If the chair's job is to lead the meeting and ensure it adheres to rules of order, then it surely is the chair's job to call for silence when participants are out of order.
The question is whether there are rules of order - either implicitly or explicitly - that the participants are supposed to be abiding by.
Serenity Steele may have been using a method of requesting the floor of his own devising, but all the council members should be behaving with that sort of decorum, otherwise we have the parentheticals and exclamations that get in the way of an orderly discussion where everyone has a turn to say their peace.
I don't think the intention is for the CSM chamber to be a place where people shout over each other. And in the end that means someone has to be able to enforce order if the members cannot contain themselves to orderly conduct.
If CCP wanted that they should have specified such and put a democratic process in place to choose the group's chair. "Most votes overall" is a poor way to determine this.
Another alternative would have been for them to appoint someone to chair the meetings. My main problem with the process so far hasn't been order. It's been the lack of guidance from CCP and the usurping of "power" by people not responsible for doing so.
If you look to the meeting prior to yesterday you'll see that as long as we stick to spaceships and away from power grabs, we are quite capable of carrying on a dialogue without the need for a daddy.
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Dohl Khrensen
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:15:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Vantras A terrible shame for what could have been a decent social experiement in EVE.
Isn't this the social experiment going pretty well as expected?
There is no reason the CSM can't still obtain success in their original goal as long as everyone can take a step back, calm down, and get back to the task at hand. Anyone with real life board experience knows that people make mistakes, can't shut up, talk out of turn, get their nose out-of joint, get worked up, etc., at meetings. It doesn't mean you ask for resignations or give up on the process. You just just take a breath, prepare your material as best you can, and go into the next meeting trying to be as progressive and productive as possible.
There are a lot of good points made in these threads (and this is not a STFU post), but let's give them a chance to sort things out on their own. Blatent optimism, I know, but if I didn't have some faith in people I'd have quit this game long ago.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:24:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Christy Walton I feel sorry for Jade. Lost his time, his gf and now his virtual reputation (if he ever had one) Maybe he should resign and let CSM try to recover.
Good heavens could you be more dramatic! Do you think my dog and goldfish are going to die next! Listen to yourself. I volunteered to an elected position on a bloody player council in a mmorpg. I muted somebody in a meeting to let a vote get counted. Now my "virtual reputation" (whatever that is) "lies in tatters" I've "lost my time" (sounds like a doctor who plot) and I've lost my gf? Though how you'd know anything about my personal life I've got no clue.
Go outdoors! Smell the fresh air! Get a sense of perspective and have a beer! Go find a girlfriend and have some fun mate.
*shakes his head* kids today honestly.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:27:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Dohl Khrensen
Originally by: Vantras A terrible shame for what could have been a decent social experiement in EVE.
Isn't this the social experiment going pretty well as expected?
There is no reason the CSM can't still obtain success in their original goal as long as everyone can take a step back, calm down, and get back to the task at hand. Anyone with real life board experience knows that people make mistakes, can't shut up, talk out of turn, get their nose out-of joint, get worked up, etc., at meetings. It doesn't mean you ask for resignations or give up on the process. You just just take a breath, prepare your material as best you can, and go into the next meeting trying to be as progressive and productive as possible.
There are a lot of good points made in these threads (and this is not a STFU post), but let's give them a chance to sort things out on their own. Blatent optimism, I know, but if I didn't have some faith in people I'd have quit this game long ago.
Actually I am quite surprised to see the meeting progress when no in game politics are involved. So when they are talking space ships you get to actually see objective game mechanic discussions at play (for the most part)
But when the power play comes in and e-peen muscles are being flexed, that is when we see the crap. I am sorry but there should be no reason to silence any one with in the context of that last meeting. It was a bit over the top and unnecessary. If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting.
A sign of a good leader is someone who listens more than he/she speaks. And leads more than he/she dictates.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:38:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting.
Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right?
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:43:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If you look to the meeting prior to yesterday you'll see that as long as we stick to spaceships and away from power grabs, we are quite capable of carrying on a dialogue without the need for a daddy.
Hell yes to this. Cheers to you all for sticking it out and getting issues on the table with CCP, as that's the most important thing.
That said, CCP did appoint a chair - the person with the most votes. And they charged that Chairperson with leading the meetings. Implicit in leading meetings is keeping some semblance of order and moving the discussion and agenda forward. While you suggest that the Chair has no powers, the only documentation of how the CSM is supposed to run says the Chairperson runs the meetings.
It would have been nice if CCP had written detailed instructions, but they didn't. It's up to you guys to work together to keep things moving and the only instruction given is that Jade's supposed to lead that effort. I think it's fair to argue with the exact nature of how he's supposed to do that, but to claim CCP's intention was that he have no authority on which to lead meetings is false, as it does say in the CSM document that that is his job as Chairperson.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:44:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting.
Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right?
The guy who yells fire in a crowded theater doesn't do much running either, but that doesn't mean the commotion and delays caused were someone else's fault.
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Christy Walton
Bloodveil
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:00:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Good heavens could you be more dramatic! Do you think my dog and goldfish are going to die next! Listen to yourself. I volunteered to an elected position on a bloody player council in a mmorpg. I muted somebody in a meeting to let a vote get counted. Now my "virtual reputation" (whatever that is) "lies in tatters" I've "lost my time" (sounds like a doctor who plot) and I've lost my gf? Though how you'd know anything about my personal life I've got no clue.
Go outdoors! Smell the fresh air! Get a sense of perspective and have a beer! Go find a girlfriend and have some fun mate.
*shakes his head* kids today honestly.
Looking at the mirror Jade?
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:02:00 -
[219]
Further irony, Jade criticizing fellow EVE players for being 'nerdy' despite his own *******-Love-Affair-Roleplaying.
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Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:06:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting.
Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right?
Sir, I am not a troll nor I am trolling. Nor did I make any comments about any of you supposed real life issues or care. I am much as apart of this process as you or any one else. I am apart of the FRIGGIN player base. I am voicing my concerns and views based on what I am seeing and experiencing both here and in the damn game.
You can not silence me like you mash the mute button on your fellow CSM members. Your actions speak louder than your self delusional rants. You created this mess and now you are trying to push it off to others including the player base that happen to have voted for you.
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:11:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Verone I'm genuinely concerned, because I don't feel that as a chairman, you should be silencing any member of the CSM who wants to speak and has the right to do so.
Whether or not they had the right to do so is the question. It depends on whether there are rules of order or whether any CSM rep can shout whatever they want wheneve they want.
If the chair's job is to lead the meeting and ensure it adheres to rules of order, then it surely is the chair's job to call for silence when participants are out of order.
The question is whether there are rules of order - either implicitly or explicitly - that the participants are supposed to be abiding by.
Serenity Steele may have been using a method of requesting the floor of his own devising, but all the council members should be behaving with that sort of decorum, otherwise we have the parentheticals and exclamations that get in the way of an orderly discussion where everyone has a turn to say their peace.
I don't think the intention is for the CSM chamber to be a place where people shout over each other. And in the end that means someone has to be able to enforce order if the members cannot contain themselves to orderly conduct.
As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:20:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Verone
As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be.
Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody?
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Kai Wooglin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:25:00 -
[223]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Verone
As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be.
Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody?
It's exactly what Jade does so v0v
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:29:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Pnuka
Maybe if we quote Star Fraction members that think Jade was wrong on a "number" of things he'll listen.
That is Hearthstone here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898
Well if you are going to quote my dear chap learn to read things before you quote K? First it's Heartstone not Hearthstone and I said he was wrong to mute her for a number of reasons not wrong on a number of things. As to the issue of wether the chair/v.chair should have the power to mute I think it is frankly pretty obvious he should indeed have this power as asking someone to be quiet and let the agenda continue without some way of making them (eventually). Having it otherwise would be akin to someone standing on top of a hill 5 miles away from a music festival shouting "Would you chaps there mind keeping it down?"
In any case with the quite obvious axes to grind around here I shan't expect my words to have any affect really.
Have fun damning someone who has put an insane amount of work and effort into this for not doing it the way you like *shrug*
---
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:34:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Verone As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be.
Well, that's a YP not an MP.
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:59:00 -
[226]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Verone
As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be.
Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody?
Given past experience all I've seen when I've disagreed with Jade is members under his roster blindly agreeing with him regardless of the subject when things get heated.
So to answer your question, no. I don't feel it's narrow minded at all given the situation.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Thaylon Sen
Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:00:00 -
[227]
would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides.
do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do!
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:10:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Thaylon Sen would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides.
do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do!
Probably for the best. Nobody who stood doesn't have leather for skin anyway. I'm sure it'll be handshakes and smiles at the next meeting before we on the dramallama for the next set of fun rides. Don't worry about all this froth. As long as we keep pumping through the issues we are actually doing the job.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Arithron
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:20:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 22:20:29 The council will be able to vote for its own chair and I'll probably get to sit back and sip fine wine. But at least I'll have cat-herded some decent issues onto the agenda and made a progressive change to the constitution in the inaugural CSM.
Nice, but remember those other 8 players that were also on the council and voted on those 'cat-herded' issues?
Plus, you are forgetting, it isn't the CSM's or Chair's responsibility to make changes to the constitution. All such matters should be directed to CCP to make rulings on, such as alternates in meetings, muting representatives etc.
You have no more power in a meeting than any other CSM representative. You can chair the meeting, but a failure of a meeting is your responsibility and no one elses. You have no rights to make 'final rulings' etc. Read the documents again, then post the passages that give you those rights.
Take care, Bruce Hansen
I still see you have yet to step down as Chairman, despite your election promise.
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:28:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Arithron You have no more power in a meeting than any other CSM representative. You can chair the meeting, but a failure of a meeting is your responsibility and no one elses. You have no rights to make 'final rulings' etc. Read the documents again, then post the passages that give you those rights.
Reposted from above:
CCP did appoint a chair - the person with the most votes. And they charged that Chairperson with leading the meetings. Implicit in leading meetings is keeping some semblance of order and moving the discussion and agenda forward. While you suggest that the Chair has no powers, the only documentation of how the CSM is supposed to run says the Chairperson runs the meetings.
It would have been nice if CCP had written detailed instructions, but they didn't. It's up to you guys to work together to keep things moving and the only instruction given is that Jade's supposed to lead that effort. I think it's fair to argue with the exact nature of how he's supposed to do that, but to claim CCP's intention was that he have no authority on which to lead meetings is false, as it does say in the CSM document that that is his job as Chairperson.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:33:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Arithron I still see you have yet to step down as Chairman, despite your election promise.
Yawn. Why do you keep flogging this dead horse? I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. If it doesn't get added to the constitution I won't. Its fairly simple to understand. I want to ensure that no future CSM session will be led by a person who wins the popular vote but isn't capable of chairing meetings. If I don't get this surety then there is no purpose to resigning and I'll stand as chair for the full session.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Oncely Magnanimous
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:34:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Thaylon Sen would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides.
do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do!
Probably for the best. Nobody who stood doesn't have leather for skin anyway. I'm sure it'll be handshakes and smiles at the next meeting before we on the dramallama for the next set of fun rides. Don't worry about all this froth. As long as we keep pumping through the issues we are actually doing the job.
nice job with the "deflect and redirect."
i've been entertained all day with a million posts about this and i still haven't seen you accept your fellow CSM's view that you acted out of line. until that happens, i think the handshakes will be in short supply.
what i've read of your responses in chat logs and forum posts have been a number of excuses, deflections, redirects, personal attacks, broad sweeping generalizations about player groups, and other blather.
if you really think reconciliation is the appropriate way forward, showing you have the humility to admit you were wrong might go a long way in moving on.
so will you admit that you acted out of line? (this question only needs a yes or no answer, but i don't see that coming.)
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Semkhet
Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:35:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/06/2008 18:09:14
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
But moderators don't need to do that. They do get a mute button in meetings. They can pull the room aside to make sure they are on track. There was nothing malicious about what Jade did in that log. There is something Darius JOHNSON did and that was try to undermine Jade's postition at every opportunity he could. Its pathetic. Everything he said boiled down to, "who the hell do you think you are?"
The funny thing is people are complaining about the time in that log. They want to get it done. Jade muted someone who kept dragging it off topic late into the meeting. Bane even wanted it to be over. A goon. Jade decides to put the majority of the members ahead of one and gave a warning. That is what I saw.
Um... nowhere is it stated any member of the CSM should be muting anyone. Least of all for having an opinion. My statement of "Who the hell are you?" stands. The chair is a meeting planner. Nothing more. It's not undermining if the actual authority doesn't exist. It doesn't. Nobody in my opinion dragged anyone off topic with the exception of Jade. Repeatedly. I don't seem to be the only person of this opinion so I feel I still have some handle on my sanity.
Also... You mention Jade stating he wants to step down repeatedly... I've said repeatedly that he is well within his rights to do so. Nothing's stopping him whatsoever.
You have no freakin clue. All the bodies which have decisional powers I've interacted with are chaired by an entity which has power to maintain the discussions on track according to the agenda. This include the ability to stop a useless diatribe, expel a member for the duration of the session, or even abort and postpone said session.
It's done the same way from shareholder up to parliament & house sessions. the number of occurrences of sentences which had nothing or little to do with the matter at hand in these chatlogs is staggering.
So IMHO Jade displayed quite a bit of restraint before acting. Anyhow, the CSM looks exactly how I was expecting it to be: a kindergarten full of overbloated egos.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:38:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Oncely Magnanimous so will you admit that you acted out of line? (this question only needs a yes or no answer, but i don't see that coming.)
I'm going to say I made three mistakes:
1. I didn't restate the rules of discussion and debate in the meeting at the beginning. 2. I should have simply copy and pasted the vote intro's. 3. I should have taken a direct judgment on the simple majority thing (and should have known in advance what the doc said)
For that stuff I'm happy to apologize and say I'll do better next time.
But on the issue of muting a member of the council after 3 warnings in order to protect the process of a vote - absolutely not. I stand by that decision 100% and would do it again.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Arithron
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:50:00 -
[235]
Yawn. Why do you keep flogging this dead horse? I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. If it doesn't get added to the constitution I won't. Its fairly simple to understand. I want to ensure that no future CSM session will be led by a person who wins the popular vote but isn't capable of chairing meetings. If I don't get this surety then there is no purpose to resigning and I'll stand as chair for the full session
This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done. Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings.
You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair?
I also see that Agenda item 4 (Science and industry) had the voting before discussion and during it. Can you, as chairman, please explain clearly and concisely what the vote for this item was for and what forum posts we can expect to see in regard to the issues listed in the volumous pdf document?
take care, Bruce Hansen
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:51:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Arithron
This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done.
I've told you what I said. And thats precisely what I am doing.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:53:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Arithron You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair?
Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:55:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 22:56:47
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Arithron You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair?
Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Arithron
This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done.
I've told you what I said. And thats precisely what I am doing.
You deflected the question with irrelevant information. You didn't promise to look at the CSM document and then attempt to change it. You promised to step down if you had that position and then let the council elect its own. You failed to meet that promise.
I mean, how hard is it. You said you would do something and when the time came you didn't do it.
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Arithron
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:59:00 -
[239]
Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings.
Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages?
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Kelsin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:00:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc.
Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link?
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