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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Ezaki Glico
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Posted - 2008.10.14 03:48:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Ezaki Glico on 14/10/2008 04:04:52
This may motive younger players. The key here I guess is sharing cert info and keeping this as simple and standard as possibile.
There should be options to share this with (1) your corp; (2) your alliance; and/or (3) your buddies listed in "people and places" list.
Yet, I think a better drive will come if younger players can easily share their current ship setup (e.g. through "show info" > "modules")! Well......also having the same options as above.
Both of these will also help directors and fleet commanders doing sanity checks!
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Tnilf
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:13:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ezaki Glico
There should be options to share this with ((3) your buddies listed in "people and places" list.
NO!!! I have no desire to have hostile FC's and cap pilots being able to see my skills.
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Hong Kong
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:23:00 -
[63]
Buddies can be grouped, can have this option to show only to a group specified? |
Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:27:00 -
[64]
I have the skills to fly and fit 162 ships. Now I can shove that fact in peoples faces. DO WANT! MUST HAS!
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Coutaux
Riemannian Metrics
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:15:00 -
[65]
Quote: Certificates don't allow you to set skill queues or any similar functionality
That's really too bad. I was excited until I read this. |
Iss Mneur
Gallente ARK-CORP SATRAPY
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:48:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tnilf
Originally by: Ezaki Glico
There should be options to share this with ((3) your buddies listed in "people and places" list.
NO!!! I have no desire to have hostile FC's and cap pilots being able to see my skills.
Well it could be a good idea, though I think it would be better linked to your and/or your corp's standings to them.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2008.10.14 06:57:00 -
[67]
Originally by: C4rnag3 Edited by: C4rnag3 on 14/10/2008 00:20:33
missing option: show in Corp but not public.
"Show in corp" should also make certificates visible to the recruiting officer/CEO when you apply for membership of a new corp.
Also, "show in corp" should not make certificates visible while you're in NPC corps (because that might conflict with the above).
-- Salpad |
Dim Corby
Valheru Empire Science and Production Agency
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Posted - 2008.10.14 07:35:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Dim Corby on 14/10/2008 07:38:48 Setting up a fleet and being able to select and move members based on their certificates would be a very handy practical use.
Not only for battle fleets, but also Empire fleets.
Example Miningfleet; When setting up a miningfleet during the evening that we play often squad commanders come and go and the fc has to move someone up to take over the squad. Now I goto our own forum, check the leadership sticky, compare that to the people online and/or in fleet and promote them.
Leadership Mining Basic/Standard/Elite Where Basic stands for sqcmd, standard > wcmd, elite > fc
So having the option to select/move/promote players ingame based on their certs would be a very handy practical use of certificates especially when it's a integrated fleet tool.
Also this will get rid of those corps that ask xx million skillpoints before you can join. For example, I know a corp that asks 7 million but basically my own 36 million sp lacks the correct skills for them as they have a mandatory for a certain level of remote armor repping that I never saw useful to train.
With the new system they just need to check if I got Remote Armor Repper - Standard (not Basic) and say you are in/out instead of being overwhelmed by my 36m sp. :)
Basically I think they can lower or even drop completely their 7m sp treshold and just focus on the certs. I do as Barti says except cleaning his bloody Hulk |
Yocus
Minmatar Fleets of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.14 09:02:00 -
[69]
Good idea to make easier to understand the skills.
A suggestion; as a noob, more than the skills, I found very hard to understand the damage system, and to know what to fit in my ships to get the best DPS or best range. Maybe integrating some tools (like EFT or Quickfit) to the fitting button will make it easier.
=-= CEO of Fleets of Aesir =-= |
Eraggan Sadarr
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.14 09:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel A suggestion:
Instead of just two options ("make them public" and "keep them private"), give us 4 options: private, corpmates can view, alliance can view, and public.
These certificates are going to replace the whole "I need to see your API" prerequisite for joining certain corps, and believe me, we will want our CEO's to see what we have, while at the same time preventing our enemies from seeing our skill weaknesses.
This is very much needed for the system to bring any value to older players. Remember that there are many paranoid players, corps and alliances out there that could benefit from this system in their recruitment, but wouldn't use it, as you don't want your enemy to check your skills out, before you go into battle.
And on a side note: When i try to claim all certificates on sisi with a "fresh" character (as in no cetificates claimed yet), the progress bar just keeps running endlessly. Well it has been for 13 minutes now... I have experienced this on two characters now.
Eve Market Scanner |
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:18:00 -
[71]
It looks fun! But honestly, I have one concern...
You are trying to make easier for new players to handle the huge mass of skills EVE has, and for that you create... a huge mass of certificates? I mean, I personally won't have any problems with it, but I can imagine a new player looking at the tree for the first time and not knowing at all where to even start reading. There's just too many...
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:20:00 -
[72]
Player-authored certs and more visibility options are things that are on our conceptual radar but were bigger projects than we had scope for in this initial release. We've got a list of improvements we're considering adding in any future iterations, which include integrating more tightly into the recruitment process, more granularity in visibility, integration into the fleet system and so on, but no promises on if or when these will make it into the game
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton except for tech 2 large armor reps (reqs mechanic 5), tech 2 medium armor reps(reqs mechanic 4), and capital armor reps (reqs a bunch more stuff)
and yes I'm being picky.
Good catch. I'm not entirely sure how that happened.
Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 14/10/2008 02:35:53 Edited by: Strill on 13/10/2008 22:46:33 Some problems I've noticed:
- Projectile Cannon certifications require Controlled Bursts
- Drone Specialist certifications require Amarr Drone Specialization (a useless skill since amarr T2 heavy/scout drones are inferior in every way)
- Passive Shield Tanking requires Tactical Shield Manipulation.
- Logistics Chief requires remote shield, armor, and energy skills to qualify. That makes it useless as a way to see if someone's good at logistics. It should be split into three parts.
- Drone Control never requires Drone Navigation 5
- There's no certification for Sentry Drones
- Gallente Military - Special Forces [improved] and [elite] have a description about Soldiers instead of Special Forces.
- The Military Career [Elite] certifications have pretty high requirements, but only recommend that their users fly Cruisers! The skills in Gallente Special Forces [Elite] are in most areas only a tiny bit away from doing level 4 missions in a Dominix! You should really recommend that the elite level pilots fly something bigger...then again, maybe that's what the [currently unfinished] certificate recommendation levels are for.
- Drone Sharpshooting 5 is required for Drone Control [Elite]. I suppose it makes a little sense, but drone sharpshooting really doesn't do much at all for combat and heavy drones, which is what [Drone Control] is for. It should be moved to be a requirement for a Sentry Drone certificate.
- Controlled bursts thing I need to have another think about - Amarr drones thing is in anticipation of Amarr drones actually being made useful in the near future - That's for Invuln Fields; this has been discussed in other threads I've seen on the boards and we're going with the consensus view that "passive shield tanking" means no shield boosters but allows active hardeners, as it's a more useful definition in terms of advising players what to train. - That will get fixed, thanks - Sentry drones cert was drafted but eventually cut as our cert list was getting way too long and it wasn't considered a vital area - Will fix that - Yeah, that should probably be bumped down from improved to standard. In the case of rookie elite certs, the "elite" level functions as a much lower target than it does for the other certs; once players get into a cruiser with decent fittings they should be able to figure out their future direction themselves. We're not sure that using certs to guide them past this stage is that helpful. - The Elite certs aren't intended as totally realistic guides to what you should be training, but rather a representation of the best possible skillset you could have in that area. I agree that sharpshooting isn't all that useful for the average drone user, but that extra few metres of firing on approach might get you an extra couple of DPS
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:29:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: CCP Greyscale If you do find something you think is odd, or a bit off, please do mention it in this thread so we can hunt down any problems and squash them
Shield Reinforcement Standard - Thermic Shield Compensation 3 missing as prereq. Shield Reinforcement Elite - Thermic Shield Compensation 5 missing as prereq. Battlespace Technician Elite - No prereqs listed, would guess this should be warfare link specialist lvl 5 and command ships lvl 5.
Is the Fleet Co-Ordinator Elite the most skill intensive of all the certificates?
Those two shield things look like a whoopsie. Battlespace Tech is already fixed internally in exactly the way you describe And yes, the Fleet Co-Ordinator Elite cert is probably one of the hardest to get, but I'm pretty sure there are a few people who already qualify out there...
Originally by: Lumy Awesome feature. I just realized my shield compensation skill was only level 1.
And now some nitpicking:
1. Typhoon definitely needs at least basic heavy drones and basic battleship launcher as recommendation.
2. As already mentioned, please remove Controlled bursts from turret control certificates. Having 7.5m SP in gunnery and not a single certificate makes my e-peen microscopic.
3. Afterburner 5 for basic minnie specialist is just silly. At least for now, dunno how about post nerf patch. Maybe it turns out to be MUST HAVE.
4. Minnie recons should include recommendation for basic (or standard) propulsion jamming.
5. For some reason I was able to acquire elite minnie business - executive command. Maybe because it doesn't have prerequisites (Must find how to file a bug report)
More to come...
1) We were trying to avoid having too many reqs for specific ships, but in this case it may be justified I guess 2) As above, looking into finding a neat way to resolve this 3) When I checked on our internal servers, Minmatar Specops graduates were given AB V as part of their starting skill package, which is why it was included 4) Same thing as with the Typhoon, but again we'll have a look at this 5) That was broken, and it's fixed internally
Originally by: James Lyrus Looks rather nice. Just a quick q. Are prepreqs set in stone?
Reason I ask, is I can't actually think of a single ship that uses Multitasking 5, which is a prereq for 'elite core targeting' (and the top tier ewar stuff in turn).
I like the implementation of 'em though, and think it's a nice idea. I also think there's room for 'ship class' specific certs.
Multitasking's an odd one; I don't believe there's a situation where training it past 3 is actually useful, but at the same time "elite" is supposed to mean "maxed out"... I think on reflection though it is a bit excessive, I'll bump it down to 3 as part of my next set of fixes.
On ship classes, we thought about this, but then we thought "what, exactly, would you put on a 'caldari cruiser' cert?". If you want to catch all the ships in the class you'd need to include rails, missiles, ECM, mining, shield tanking and logistics, at which point it's not really saying anything that useful...
Originally by: Maren Maen <<certificates are defined groups of skills and certificates. >>
I guess no one ever told you that you can't use a word to define itself? X=X+1 only works in programming.. nerds ;p.
Set theory's happy with it, so so am I
If anyone else spots anything odd, please let us know.
Oh, and on the subject of Vagabonds (as I know it's come up a few times elsewhere), that was a stab in the dark on my part, as I wasn't sure exactly what fitting people were going to settle on post-speed balance. Lend me your wisdom and if it makes sense to change it I'll do so
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TorTorden
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.14 10:56:00 -
[74]
Edited by: TorTorden on 14/10/2008 10:58:08 I actualy disagree with this helping out the new players. I tested this out on SISI last night and it honestly looked like another messy obfuscation of the skills system.
Yes I can see this maybe help with corporate organising IF and only if, you can searh through a corp's members list and see who has what, IE fleet bonus certs. I also think the display to the world feature needs access control, just throwin in a suggestion that iy could implenent the same or a similar system as the access control in channels and mailing lists, it already allows you the set access to alliances\corporatoins or directly to individual characters.
TT CEO Norcorp Enterprise
PS:
Quote: - Amarr drones thing is in anticipation of Amarr drones actually being made useful in the near future
------------------------------------------------ There is no such thing as good or evil. Just an egotistic struggle for self empowerment. ------------------------------------------------ |
Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 11:29:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey
looks nice and is a nice addition for newer players.
will you please please please please please please please please remove Controlled Bursts from the projectile skills. some of the other certs also seem to be unbalanced :/
Yeah, this is something that's been bothering me over the last couple of weeks. As you can see from the way it's laid out, the reason that CB is in there for projectiles is that it's inheriting it from the generic Turrets cert series. It would be possible just to remove that prereq and push all the other skills in that set directly onto the projectile certs, or to create a new subcert just for non-cap-using turrets, but both are inelegant and remove some of the implied portability of the skills (ie if you train the generic turret certs up as part of your projectile training, you can clearly see that those skills carry over to the other turret types; this is lost if we sever that link).
It's still being considered though, certainly, as are all the other prereqs. If you do find something you think is odd, or a bit off, please do mention it in this thread so we can hunt down any problems and squash them
Surely this just means it is at the wrong point in the inheritance tree?
Basic gunnery lists skills useful for all turrets - which does not include controller bursts.
Projectile then doesn't include it either Laser and Hybrid add it in their tree at appropriate levels.
After all you don't _need_ controller bursts to fire either lasers or hybrid turrets (although I admit its damned useful!)
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gfldex
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.14 11:43:00 -
[76]
So I went to sisi and gave them certs a try. With my 52MSP I barely got any _basic_ certs and I will for sure not waste skill time to get a virtual stomp on a virtual piece of paper.
How that waste of dev time is going to help new players is beyond me. But keep moving into dead ends and back it with marketing lies^H^H^H^Hspeach.
--
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:21:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/10/2008 12:22:45 Greyscale said "That's for Invuln Fields; this has been discussed in other threads I've seen on the boards and we're going with the consensus view that "passive shield tanking" means no shield boosters but allows active hardeners, as it's a more useful definition in terms of advising players what to train." I like the way you view passive tanking but the problem is most passive tankers avoid lvl 5 Tactical Shield Manipulation as itÆs a seen as a disadvantage. Perhaps lower the Elite passive tank to lvl 4 so you can use T2 Invuln Field, as no elite passive tanker is going to want it at lvl 5. The Elite people are those who keep it at lvl 4.
Why on earth do we need to get active tanking certification before we can get passive tanking certification? One of my accounts is an Elite passive tanker but unable to even get the basic passive tanking certification as she has no active tanking skills.
Drones are rather unfair. Getting all drones to Specialization lvl 5 is like having blasters, railguns, lasers Specialization all to lvl 5. Most drone pilots only train 1 or 2 drone Specialization. Anything more is a waste.
Greyscale said ô- The Elite certs aren't intended as totally realistic guides to what you should be training, but rather a representation of the best possible skillset you could have in that area.ö They donÆt really represent that right now, I am on almost 90mill SP but not Elite in areas I think I am maxed out in. But its a good start. I like the idea behind these certifications.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Cho Chiyo
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:27:00 -
[78]
Nice and easy to use for new players as they have relatively few skills and certs. It gets uber cluttered for old players, but by then a player should know what to train and can forget about certs.
My 14 years old son loves it, as he loves the whole decorations thingy of FW. I guess this will appeal the younger masses out there.
No complains, nice optional feature. |
Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:56:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 14/10/2008 13:00:49 The Vulture Command Ship recommends a missile launcher cert instead of a railguns cert, despite only having rail bonuses. Admittedly it is Ferox hull with the old 5/5 Turrets/Launchers choice, but it's not a missile boat.
Also any chance of a Caldari Sniper cert that needs rails and passive shield tanking? Perhaps targeting too. Or something along those lines anyway.
EDIT: Almost forgot to say that I love it
EDIT 2: Any chance of being able to view skills in the same planner? So you could click on a skill needed for a certificate and it would show the skills needed for that skill and the skills/certs you need it for.
nullnull
My sig is not my sig. |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.10.14 14:42:00 -
[80]
Three things: Can we add in certs to those adverts we can post for corp hirings so that people can sort for things they qualify and add in more qualifications so corps can find the people they need?
Drone elite should be all specs at 4 so you can use all heavy T2 drones (extra 2% for lv 5 is silly)
For corp/alliance visible certs, can we list people that do/dont have certain certs? For example, we REQUIRE everyone have Cyno operation at level 1 and it would make it easier on us to berate those that dont. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 15:43:00 -
[81]
Just call it an Achievement system like every other game?
Hehe, really that's what came to mind right away, even though it's slightly different in nature. But yeah, I see how this could be useful for new players, at least to an extent.
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Valan
The Fated
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Valan on 14/10/2008 16:04:21 As an older player this has no value to me so lets look at the other end.
I understand giving structure to the hundreds of skills may help the new guy. But considering how many man hours must've gone into this it's a crime. Want to help the new guy.
GIVE THEM A SKILL TRAINING Q SERIOUSLY.
With the other unmentionable training change it was definitely the time to do it. Would've offset the bad news somewhat.
But I've finally come to realise the hardcore Devs have moved on to the 'new' game and we've been left with the 'carebeartakers'. Industrial updates, dancing in stations a skill collection system. Forget the b0rked factional warfare and the abortion thats become 0.0 capital blob warfare.
We know CCP are now after the popular money but the reason that everyone is in Empire is because you've screwed the rest of it up. That doesn't mean everyone wants to stay there and carebear. Try fixing the issues intstead of having more 'fluff' and Empire would empty faster than an Icelandic bank.
Continuing down the easy path seems like the immediate commercial way forward but it isn't a long term strategy for a business. Luckily you have no Genre competition, it'll come at some point an then you'll have to innovate instead of just grinding. Which is what EVE used to be about.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 -
[83]
I haven't had time to check this out on Sisi yet, but will be sure to give you a review when I do. As I've looked at the blog so far, it does indeed look like it could a be great help for some newbs. Most, actually. Some people are however endlessly clueless and will probably be completely lost in the certification tree.
But it's sure to be an interesting improvement. We'll see what happens in the future. I guess it's gonna need a crapload of bugreporting to begin with before the certs end up landing on the proper skill levels that people expect. For instance, drone specialization skills are barely EVER trained above 4, so elite certificate should stay there. But that's the only thing I have on my mind atm. Will be back with more comments once I've actually tested it.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Orgell Evaan
Minmatar Meridian Dynamics Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 -
[84]
Honestly, I don't see much use for this beyond the aforementioned calculations of epeen sig radius; I'm fairly certain any competent corporation will have the broadcast for this turned off ("Got a neut in local... look, he's Elite Recon!"). It will help some of the freshmeat figure out what isn't needed for a particular race or job, but unless it gets tied into a job queue system, it would be better replaced by an EveMon- style training tree that includes common fits. ("Wanna fly ship X? Train Foo IV, Bar III, Ishka IV, and Bibble II"). Even if a full featured queue is not on the horizon, how about a continuation ability on currently training skills, e.g.: Foo is currently training lvl. II. Upon completion, it starts Foo III, until it hits Foo V? |
Janus Ovellian
Minmatar Encina Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 -
[85]
EWAR Operator Elite, has EWAR Operator Elite as a prerequisite. Should be EWAR Operator Standard obviously. :)
Interesting times await... |
Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:16:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kayscha So far, it used to be possible to con one's way into most corps no matter their requirements because you could always photoshop a screenie to suit the requirements. ... I sure don't want that freedom removed from the game.
(Emphasis added by me, trimmed middle part)
If you had to rely on out-of-game tools, it was never IN the game anyway.
Am I the only one thinking it would be wrong to rely on outside applications to play a game? If the game doesn't provide it, you shouldn't need it. (Can be seen either way - Eve IS lacking a lot of tools. But that shouldn't be.) |
Starlion Amraza
Amarr Konstrukteure der Zukunft
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:22:00 -
[87]
span style= font-size:7pt i Edited by: Starlion Amraza on 14/10/2008 19:24:00 /i /span br Sorry friends, but CCP is to slow! br br The KdZ is working with that for a long time!!! br br Look at this: br br br a href= http://evetopolis.de target= _blank http://evetopolis.de /a Skillchecker by KdZ http://www.eve-kdz.de/Bilder/Star-Banner.gif
signature removed (max size 24000 bytes) - please email us (with
the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected])
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Sh0ckwavez
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:50:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Sh0ckwavez on 14/10/2008 19:53:41 this is the right link
KDZ-Skilltracker
but yea we had this one for ages
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Rpeg
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.14 23:15:00 -
[89]
Sounds like a great idea except for a couple parts:
1. This may over-simply the skills by encouraging users to only see them in terms of these combinations instead of investigating more of their own. Although its good you limit the scope of these certificates.
2. Where's the user input on what constitutes "basic", "improved", "elite"?
So, I agree with other people on this forum who suggest we should be able to create our own for corps and alliances. If you allow for that I hope this could be the first step in implementing EVEMon type functionality within the game as well. -- autechre - ep7 - track 1: rpeg estevancarlos.com |
Gridwalker
Amarr Divine Power
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:29:00 -
[90]
It's difficult for most of us, as veterans, to tell if this is going to make it easier or more difficult for new players to understand the skill system. My first reaction, however, is you're simply adding another level of complexity to an already complex system.
I can just see it now! Instead of trying to explain how the skills relate to each other, and offering suggestions to new players, I will now have to try to explain this "certification" system as well, and that it doesn't really DO anything.
My biggest concern, besides the fact that I expect it will make things MORE difficult for new players to understand (i.e., What is a SKILL vs. a CERTIFICATION, and what does each do?) is that it may ultimately damage one of the core aspects of the current skill system; that you can train what you want, as you want to, and that your character is infinitely customizable.
Players will train to the certificate recommendations, which will then become the de-facto way one trains skills. CCP is, in effect, telling players how they should train their skills, by introducing the certificate system. Deviation from that standard, while possible, will be looked at as wrong. It even has the potential to discourage creative ship fittings, because the certifications will steer people to what is considered "common".
I don't think this is needed, and in some ways, I think it will be somewhat detrimental. I think it will harm diversity, and will add to the confusion new players face when learning how to train.
-Grid
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