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Claudia Voltaire
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Posted - 2008.12.09 22:49:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Avon
What if the ships were just left in space by an alt, or at a pos?
What then?
Imagine the GM's would tell whoever to pack it in, like they did to Miz a few years ago when he was droping off suicide smartbombing apoc's to aid his cause:P
On this thing though, isn't the whole deal that when you suicide enough and you get that -sec status thingy, so that you can't continue on the rampage in high sec space kinda rendered pointless by all this.
Might as well just ditch -sec status scaling all together if you can work around it
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Chomp Rock
Caldari Phantasmal Collective
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Posted - 2008.12.09 22:50:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Tippia So by that logic, whenever a criminal undocks from a station (and they can do this without dying), Concord should flag, and possibly even attack that stationà?
Wooo! Jita 4-4 is flashing red, guys! Let's go get it!
even a privateer says that it would be in keeping with the rest of the game mechanics to have the orca flagged as assisting the outlaws. face it, you've lost this one. and your rebuttal to his point is just plain lame.
it's difficult to argue against the point that, at the very least, the victims should get kill rights on the orca pilot for his assisting the gankers. but it's a slippery slope from there to "well, if the orca provided assistance to outlaws, shouldn't it get some of the consequences that go along with it?"
if you count use of the maint array as remote assistance, with concord hitting the orca pilot once the gank happens, he can dock up before the outlaws do the gank. and even then, you could probably just wait for changeovers or do something else to clear the remote assistance flag.
from a programming perspective, the easiest ways to deal with this are: 1. declare this maneuver an exploit 2. limit orca maint array to indies 3. count use of maint array as remote assistance and give immediate sec-status hits for each infraction (5 outlaws pulling cruisers = 5 infractions, so like -3 sec status). even then, this one would probably require a re-write of remote assistance mechanics to be effective
Originally by: Lui Kai Chribba - when you log in next, let us know what the end credits to the game say
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RedWyvern
Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.09 23:10:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: RedWyvern The -10 players had zero chance of getting to the belt safely and doing the suicide gank without this intervention
Try again.
So, there is another way? Great, let them do that.
Originally by: Avon
The irony of your alliance's origins makes me think this is must be a clever troll. What if the ships were just left in space by an alt, or at a pos?
What then?
Flag safespots as crime scenes?
Far too obvious to be a clever troll. There's no reason why I can't be a privateer and not have my own set of standards. I think you're splitting hairs here when it isn't necessary. I can see the distinction you're making here - if they can do it via an Orca's hangar, why not through ships stationed at a PoS, or ejected from by a friendly alt? It's impossible for the system to discriminate between an empty ship belonging to and alt, and one belonging to a stranger, but it's still circumvention either way as far as I'm concerned.
I think that highsec gameplay is flawed in that it's too easy for purely industrial groups to sit in empire with relative impunity, which is what all this stems from. Factions and kill rights aside, any attempt to directly harm a player in empire who is in an npc corp has to involve suicide at one point or another. However, what you need here is fundamental changes to the game mechanics that are fair to all involved, not ridiculous borderline exploits. -------------------------------------------------- Loyalty, Integrity, Honour. |
Krovvy
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Posted - 2008.12.09 23:16:00 -
[664]
It seems to me that this can be stopped by just adding a 30 second delay to warping after boarding a ship in space. This would give Concord or the local navy time to arrive and destroy the criminal's ship if they are in high-sec. To cover the roleplaying aspect they can say that the ship's nav computer needs time to boot up or somthing similar.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.09 23:25:00 -
[665]
Why would pirates with a -10 sec-rating hunt in high-sec?
There's no thrill in hunting there? There's no risk. And the reward isn't really that good.
Sounds like children who haven't grown a pair.... yet.
rgds
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Alowishus
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2008.12.10 01:36:00 -
[666]
Edited by: Alowishus on 10/12/2008 01:38:54
Originally by: SirMoric Why would pirates with a -10 sec-rating hunt in high-sec?
Maybe they think it's fun?
Originally by: SirMoric There's no thrill in hunting there?
Says you. Once again, glad we have these people in Eve to tell the rest of us what is fun.
Originally by: SirMoric There's no risk.
So? Most people in Eve fight to win.
Originally by: SirMoric And the reward isn't really that good.
People fit nice items when they mistakenly believe they're safe.
Originally by: SirMoric Sounds like children who haven't grown a pair.... yet.
Once again, glad to have these enlightened people of Eve making judgements and telling everyone else how it is.
What other insightful things does the noob alt have to tell us?
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Flossing
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Posted - 2008.12.10 01:52:00 -
[667]
Edited by: Flossing on 10/12/2008 01:55:19 Ok ill start by saying, i do find what the pirates doing kinda funny, and am all for this type of thing, but after reading this and giving it few mins thought the one thing i do think that should be changed is the following, because as it is currently in my mind not as it should be :-
Assisting criminals is an offense and thus flags you as one yourself, so as i see it an orca aiding a pirate in this way should be flagged and get a sec hit for doing so.
Well that's my two penny's worth, and good luck to you and the pirate guys.
p.s you should have organized a couple guys in your corp to suicide gank their pods while you was following/watching them.
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Chomp Rock
Caldari Phantasmal Collective
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Posted - 2008.12.10 02:22:00 -
[668]
Edited by: Chomp Rock on 10/12/2008 02:23:43
Originally by: Flossing
Assisting criminals is an offense and thus flags you as one yourself, so as i see it an orca aiding a pirate in this way should be flagged and get a sec hit for doing so.
couldn't have put it better myself. makes perfect sense, allows for the tactic while giving a fair penalty, and requires very little coding re-write. 15 minute global criminal flag and sec hit for each act of assisting an outlaw sounds fair enough.
this system also sounds like a hilarious opportunity for a scam. offer X million to an orca pilot for his services, and then have 20 of your friends receive assistance from him by grabbing ships and warping, leaving him stuck in his spot for 15 minutes or getting him cornholed by concord, leaving him with a big shiny wreck and mangled sec status.
edit: i suppose the real scam this would unleash is having your "mining" char make the deal with him, then having your outlaw chars pull out ships from his bay and ransom him when he turns flashy red.
Originally by: Lui Kai Chribba - when you log in next, let us know what the end credits to the game say
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:06:00 -
[669]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 10/12/2008 03:06:16
Originally by: Flossing
Assisting criminals is an offense and thus flags you as one yourself,
Lets not extend this stupid rule.
Take the following example.
Two -10 outlaws on a gate in low sec One outlaw reps the other The outlaw who reps the other gets a sec drop, global criminal and sentry fir The repped outlaw DOSENT GET ANY penalties.
So concord see it as terrible to help a big bad outlaw so trigger sentry guns and sec drop. But the big bad outlaw himself is sat there happy as larry with no penalty?
Dosent make any sense.
SKUNK
Originally by: CCP Navigator
People who think I am joking or talking big are going to understand very quickly that there will be order
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:10:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
did you even read the rest of the thread, like the you don't need an orca part?
People always use that word: need. I use it too, sometimes. But it's a fairly unimportant word for most things in Eve.
You don't *need* an Orca, but the Orca makes it easier and faster. Which obviously leads to more of said ganks. Which obviously leads to wider customer dissatisfaction. Which will probably lead to eventual changes. Which anyone can figure out pretty easily, even if they prefer to forum *****, trying to champion their own interests by influencing general perception.
You can view the Orca as a sort of catalyst for the eventual game changes. It won't be the cause of them, but it is, or will be, facilitating a higher frequency of highsec outlaw ganks, which will be the cause of the coming change.
In Eve, as in rl, as long as only a few are affected, or rather, think they could be affected, most people don't care, and not much is done about it....
no not really (orca holds less than 4 cruisers what?), I would rather do it without an orca, a freighter would be far more useful. orcas ship maint bay is so prenerfed it makes me
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:14:00 -
[671]
Originally by: 21 Salvager
Originally by: DrefsabZN If you mined while generally aligned to another point you could have got out as soon as you saw the reds in system.
How exactly would you do that? Align and fly towards a celestial, then turn around and align/fly towards some object in the other direction before you get to far from your asteroids? Not really feasible while mining I think.
Please keep in mind that the time to warp from 0 m/s is the same for any direction. Just pointing your ship at a point and then stopping does no good at all.
you got 15km range on a t2 stripminer, that and hulks are slow.
for instance a belt looks much like this:
roid roid roid roid roid roid roid spot a <---- hulk ----> spot b
a hulk can get most of the roids... not to mention that in highsec they are often rather small roids and pop rather quickly. align to spot a, when you get to 14km of the roid of interest align to spot b.
get an interceptor and make an offgrid book mark, it isn't rocket science
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:18:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Farham
Scan the Orca and suicide gank it. I would be willing to bet after the 2nd or 3rd Orca their lil operation wouldn't quite be so profitable.
like titans suicide ganking isn't always about cost effectiveness.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:32:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Chomp Rock
Originally by: Tippia So by that logic, whenever a criminal undocks from a station (and they can do this without dying), Concord should flag, and possibly even attack that stationà?
Wooo! Jita 4-4 is flashing red, guys! Let's go get it!
even a privateer says that it would be in keeping with the rest of the game mechanics to have the orca flagged as assisting the outlaws. face it, you've lost this one. and your rebuttal to his point is just plain lame.
it's difficult to argue against the point that, at the very least, the victims should get kill rights on the orca pilot for his assisting the gankers. but it's a slippery slope from there to "well, if the orca provided assistance to outlaws, shouldn't it get some of the consequences that go along with it?"
if you count use of the maint array as remote assistance, with concord hitting the orca pilot once the gank happens, he can dock up before the outlaws do the gank. and even then, you could probably just wait for changeovers or do something else to clear the remote assistance flag.
from a programming perspective, the easiest ways to deal with this are: 1. declare this maneuver an exploit 2. limit orca maint array to indies 3. count use of maint array as remote assistance and give immediate sec-status hits for each infraction (5 outlaws pulling cruisers = 5 infractions, so like -3 sec status). even then, this one would probably require a re-write of remote assistance mechanics to be effective
tbh I don't ever plan on using an orca to facilitate a suicide gank. for plenty of reasons stated above. (namely the I can only put 3 cruisers in the ship maint bay) that and faction police are easily avoidable.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:41:00 -
[674]
Easy fix, apply a negative standing tag to anyone in local with negative 5 or lower.
If a minus 5 or lower enters high sec. everyone in local is automatically informed if they have the common sense to check local before they start staring at rocks for hours.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 03:56:00 -
[675]
Originally by: SirMoric Why would pirates with a -10 sec-rating hunt in high-sec?
There's no thrill in hunting there? There's no risk. And the reward isn't really that good.
Sounds like children who haven't grown a pair.... yet.
rgds
because by blowing up random miners I can get cheaper ships
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VIRUS DESTROYER
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Posted - 2008.12.10 11:12:00 -
[676]
pilots who are already -10 and getting full insurance on their ships on doing suicide gank in high sec should be somehow penalized, as of now they have nothing to loose, no sec status loss(cuz its max negative anyway) and full insurance.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.10 11:17:00 -
[677]
Originally by: RedWyvern
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: RedWyvern The -10 players had zero chance of getting to the belt safely and doing the suicide gank without this intervention
Try again.
So, there is another way? Great, let them do that.
I've never used an Orca, and I have ganked in highsec.
Figure it out
btw... I could have been doing this before the QR patch, but it never occurred to me to try since I was keeping my sec status good enough to suicide in highsec legally. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Syn Exec
Synergy Evolved
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Posted - 2008.12.11 08:39:00 -
[678]
Originally by: konjev how do u put a 500 000M¦+ ship in a 400 000M¦ shipmaintance bay?
I am wondering the same. Or has this been answered already?
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Rock'n'Roll Lady
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Posted - 2008.12.11 08:52:00 -
[679]
this exploit is like a grain in sea in the view of the exploit that is rocking the charts today where players make thousands of billions cheating their way up for last 4 years.
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.11 10:58:00 -
[680]
Originally by: Rock'n'Roll Lady This game mechanic is like a grain in salt in light of the exploit that is rocking the charts today, where players made thousands of billions cheating for the last 4 years.
Fixed up your post for you a bit.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.11 11:11:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 10/12/2008 03:06:16
Originally by: Flossing
Assisting criminals is an offense and thus flags you as one yourself,
Lets not extend this stupid rule.
Take the following example.
Two -10 outlaws on a gate in low sec One outlaw reps the other The outlaw who reps the other gets a sec drop, global criminal and sentry fir The repped outlaw DOSENT GET ANY penalties.
So concord see it as terrible to help a big bad outlaw so trigger sentry guns and sec drop. But the big bad outlaw himself is sat there happy as larry with no penalty?
Dosent make any sense.
SKUNK
Yeah, the sentries should fire on sight, shouldn't they? And the gate shouldn't activate when trying to jump, should it?
Quite a few mechanics already in place to make sec loss less of a penalty, and to make the life of a criminal easier.
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Sarf
Solar Flare Assembly Pack of the Forgotten
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Posted - 2008.12.11 15:38:00 -
[682]
I like the idea if your security status is low enough, concord pod kills you.
If you are -10 and concord pods you in 0.5 systems even if you are in your pod. This might cause a problem where a player is trapped in a station as that is where his clone is, but he can't undock without getting podded.
- Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt. |
Mithius Fear
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:21:00 -
[683]
Originally by: VIRUS DESTROYER pilots who are already -10 and getting full insurance on their ships on doing suicide gank in high sec should be somehow penalized, as of now they have nothing to loose, no sec status loss(cuz its max negative anyway) and full insurance.
Can someone correct me if I am wrong but there is no insurance payout as far as I am aware because like with the carrier your insurance is nullified as soon as you trade said ship to the Orca character.
So if in fact the ships are not insured it would only make sense to use this tactic on large scale high sec mining Ops. Bigger mining ops usually have all the miners grouped together sharing so the can put ore into as few cans as possible otherwise your drive your haulers round the bend slow boating to cans. Seems to me the effective way to nullify this tactic is as follows.
1. Fit your high sec hulk with a 0.0 Tank and run it 100% of the time. I run Gista-A & Gisti B small shield boosters with 2 invulnerability shield IIs and 3 x CCC rigs and am cap stable.
2. Spread out your miners in a belt or across multiple belts. Buy in or recruit and Orca pilot for all those spread out cans.
3. Have a disposable alt take a shot at one of the miners every hour or so to key Concorde in your belts. When his Sec status gets to low then bio mass - rinse and repeat.
I am a carebear but have to admit that I think the Orca trick is a viable tactic. Also as an enterprising carebear can think of many ways to become a harder target for the pirates so they move on to someone else.
I only have to live for 5-15 seconds.
In fact going to fit a smart bombing cruiser and see how the hulk does.
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Haleuth
Amarr Green Men Incorporated La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.12 17:37:00 -
[684]
Originally by: Mithius Fear
Originally by: VIRUS DESTROYER pilots who are already -10 and getting full insurance on their ships on doing suicide gank in high sec should be somehow penalized, as of now they have nothing to loose, no sec status loss(cuz its max negative anyway) and full insurance.
3. Have a disposable alt take a shot at one of the miners every hour or so to key Concorde in your belts. When his Sec status gets to low then bio mass - rinse and repeat.
If its against the eula to create disposable smartbombing alts to kill carebears like yourself then its also against the eula to do what your suggesting Haleuth |
Anhid Olow
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Posted - 2008.12.12 18:02:00 -
[685]
This is an interesting OP, thank you. But please, stop saying that loosing an insured ship costs nothing... did you check the price of insurance?
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Barstok
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Posted - 2008.12.12 19:37:00 -
[686]
I think what they did is quite clever, but I have to agree; make -5 to -10 sec status poddable by Concord... if they act up. They can pass through high sec space in a pod, but for acts of aggression, if Concord can find and destroy the ship, they can destroy the pod as well. Additionally, once they become an aggressor, the high sec gates lock and the docks close until their aggression timer expires. That's pretty tough on the pirate, but they chose their career as a pirate, hence acts of aggression in high security space should carry an equally high consequence. Make 'em at least buy a damn clone; they just cost the miner several million on a choice the miner didn't make. People fly in high sec for a reason. Low and null sec are for those that want to go there.
Put the "real" suicide in "suicide ganking".
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inVictu5
Caldari Universal-Corp Nexus-Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.12 20:19:00 -
[687]
Just play on the PVE server instead> Lego Eve-Online
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.12 20:27:00 -
[688]
Originally by: Barstok they just cost the miner several million on a choice the miner didn't make.
They did make a choice. The miners hit the yellow and black "Consent to PvP" button in the lower left-hand side of their screen.
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Daemien Murdoc
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Posted - 2008.12.12 20:53:00 -
[689]
This is coming from a high sec empire carebear miner:
1. I hope that CCP doesnt nerf Orcas nor this type of clever high sec suicide ganking. 2. If you get ganked twice in a same spot, then you fail at carebearism. Yes yes yes.... The same old story, adapt or die.
CCP wants players to sit at their computers... They dont want miners to cargorig their hulks and leave them afk ice mining for then next hour.
I have mined in high sec, low sec, and 0.0 and i¦ve never lost any mining vessels.
Lastly, i think that -10 players who are conducting these attacks are not pirates nor pvprs of sort. They are terrorists. Altho i dont support terrorism it doesnt mean that it should be rootet out from the New Eden.
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Barstok
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Posted - 2008.12.12 21:23:00 -
[690]
Originally by: inVictu5 Just play on the PVE server instead> Lego Eve-Online
Nice thought. So you'd like to see them rename the Tranquility server to .. what... Somalia?
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