Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 22:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:27:48 What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
Well, the explanation is as absurd as the fact. It is a very different thing to announce PLAYER names and character names. Announcing <edit>character</edit> names in no way violates user privacy, even because it is done all the time when such chars win prizes, for example. God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM ellection.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it. So I ask, why even bother with the CSM, if when the situation for which the CSM was created comes they can do nothing about it and are just ignored.
The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 22:31:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it.
The forums only attracts about 10% of the total player base. Less than 5% of the total player base even bothered to vote in the last CSM. Less than 0.05% of the total player base even voted in the thread here about the exploit.
Your numbers are wrong, and your emo nerd rage is strong. I might agree to a degree in the sentiment, that CSM is pre-nerfed in their ability to deal with CCP, I do however strongly disagree with your logic and your solution. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
|
Haakelen
Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 22:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page.
You are incorrect. The OP of that thread said nothing of the sort. It was a call for transparency on the subject. I supported the proposal on the grounds of transparency on the exploit, not for a pitchfork-waving crusade, and I can assume others did, too.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 22:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:45:08
Originally by: Treelox
The forums only attracts about 10% of the total player base. Less than 5% of the total player base even bothered to vote in the last CSM. Less than 0.05% of the total player base even voted in the thread here about the exploit.
Your numbers are wrong, and your emo nerd rage is strong. I might agree to a degree in the sentiment, that CSM is pre-nerfed in their ability to deal with CCP, I do however strongly disagree with your logic and your solution.
In any democratic process those who abstain are ignored. It is this way in the real world and it is as it should be in Eve or anywhere else. You can't know the opnion of those that didn't give it to you, so you work with the opinions you have. So your argument is completely groundless.
Originally by: Haakelen You are incorrect. The OP of that thread said nothing of the sort. It was a call for transparency on the subject. I supported the proposal on the grounds of transparency on the exploit, not for a pitchfork-waving crusade, and I can assume others did, too.
Just read the posts, shall you? And then read the thread about the exploit. You will see that the most unanimous request even between those that disagreed about everything else was for full disclosure. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Kaijusan
Gallente gallach minig Corp New Eve Mining manufacturing Organisation
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 22:54:00 -
[5]
Agreed
|
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
|
Posted - 2008.12.15 23:37:00 -
[6]
They should - but would not - resign if: CCP investigation shows unwillingness to share ALL relevant information with the public. They should - but would not - resign if: CCP would use an NDA to shut up the members of CSM from telling the public the truth.
If CSM has integrity, they would force the CCP's hand into disclosure of the truth. However, as I have seen from last CSM, they are hampered by NDA - which incidentally puts their playing account into jeopardy, should they break it. And CCP is not shy about enforcing the NDA on the CSM - which makes CSM effectively CASTRATED.
There you go.
::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
|
KAELA MENSHA
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 00:33:00 -
[7]
They would not have to reveal what CCP does not want revealed, but simple statement like: I [we] can not, in good conscience, remain a member[s] of the body that is strictly for show. I [we] can not, in good conscience, be part of the system where CSM members are threatened, or reminded of the NDA, and thus brought into line, when greater good of the public, for whom CSM was created, and whom we supposed to represent, calls for answers that we are not allowed to give.
I guarantee you a 100% uproar on that one. Too bad none of them will ever do it.
|
Allahs Warrior
Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 00:44:00 -
[8]
a big NO to this. What if all of EVE said "Give us Darius and Mollie's password!"
it's against the privacy agreement, and would get them sued. I supported the idea, but if they have privacy contracts to follow, then they have privacy contracts to follow.
|
Jinx Barker
Caldari GFB Scientific
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 00:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Allahs Warrior a big NO to this. What if all of EVE said "Give us Darius and Mollie's password!"
it's against the privacy agreement, and would get them sued. I supported the idea, but if they have privacy contracts to follow, then they have privacy contracts to follow.
What, let's use the most absurd scenario? He he he.
::::Click The Signature For the Blog::::
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 01:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 01:03:36
Originally by: Allahs Warrior a big NO to this. What if all of EVE said "Give us Darius and Mollie's password!"
it's against the privacy agreement, and would get them sued. I supported the idea, but if they have privacy contracts to follow, then they have privacy contracts to follow.
Like they were sued by, lets see he whose name begins with k... and shall not be pronounced? They didn't have any problems doing it then...
Now seriously, legally the privacy aggrement only covers real world information about the players. It has nothing to do with the characters. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
|
Squirrrel
Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 01:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Allahs Warrior a big NO to this. What if all of EVE said "Give us Darius and Mollie's password!"
it's against the privacy agreement, and would get them sued. I supported the idea, but if they have privacy contracts to follow, then they have privacy contracts to follow.
CCP own all in-game content. Alliance names, corp names and character names.
Since they own all that, they can easily disclose any or all of them and should.
What they cannot and should not disclose are account login names or passwords or personal details.
|
linkeleo
Fairlight Corp FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 01:12:00 -
[12]
i agree about disclosure of, at the very least the corps involved. this does not in any way breach individual user privacy and imo a virtual entity like a corp does not have privacy rights since it is content material of the game.
if this were a short term thing i would not be bothered by none disclosure... but the lengths of time involved are considerable. and im sure more than a few of these individuals turned this expoit into a real world money tree for themselves.
the only reason i can see for ccp making up excuses as to why they cant disclose this information is to save themselves further embaressment.
perhaps the person who made the original petition should step forward and load some evidence and disclosure of the corps involved onto an external filehost and then post / pm the url to the csm or the author of this thread... that is - if he exists at all.
Link
p.s - you dont have to be a genious to see the amount of ferrogel exceeds the supply of dysprosium. a correctly configured database would spell this out so even a dyslexic alzeimers patient might see it. ----------------------------------------------
|
Lemage
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 01:26:00 -
[13]
CSM is supposed to be a way for the players to be heard at CCP. CCP created the CSM, but don't have to listen to them as shown by the last meeting. Why bother having the CSM when CCP simply ignores it? The only options we have as subscribers is to complain and when that doesn't work, our last option is to simply vote with our feet.
I have no idea why we cannot know who exactly were exploiting this last bug??
Was it a major alliance who shifted some war?
While the characters who were exploiting this bug may have been banned, their alts who have no affiliation may still be in game, as well as anyone who benefited from this influx of isk (industrialists supplying them). This exploit has given the organizations who benefited from it, an unfair advantage. While the direct beneficiaries of the exploit have been banned, the indirect beneficiaries haven't been punished.
|
Darwin's Market
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 03:39:00 -
[14]
I like how nobody alts come saying they don't want the names disclosed, while genuine and known alliance are all demanding names for the blood throne.
|
Trist Ian
Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 05:32:00 -
[15]
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 05:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:27:48 What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
Well, the explanation is as absurd as the fact. It is a very different thing to announce PLAYER names and character names. Announcing <edit>character</edit> names in no way violates user privacy, even because it is done all the time when such chars win prizes, for example. God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM ellection.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it. So I ask, why even bother with the CSM, if when the situation for which the CSM was created comes they can do nothing about it and are just ignored.
The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP.
maybe the people at CCP believe that the character names really ARE the names of the players... which would be rather confusing if you consider some people have multiple accounts.... |
Tellnan Matkiel
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 11:12:00 -
[17]
No.
|
Doonoo Boonoo
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 11:19:00 -
[18]
OP makes up his own figures and claims them to be fact. It is not CCPs or the CSMs job to pander to conspiracy theorists who will never be happy.
NO
The OP should take the advice in his sig but lacks the courage of his convictions. He looks like another whiner who does nothing else except complain.
|
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 14:42:00 -
[19]
The objective of the CSM, as I understand it, is to coallate information from the playerbase, and then bring that information to CCP as a singular entity. They are an avenue of intelligence into the playerbase from CCP's perspective, and a voice for the playerbase from our-own. They have no authority over the decisions CCP make, and therefore cannot be held responsible for the actions taken by CCP. CCP are well within there bounds to ignore/disagree with the CSM on every issue thats brought forward.
My knowledge of the CSM and other forum shennanigans however is limited, so if im wrong in this, feel free to correct/ignore the above.
In conclussion the CSM advise CCP as to how the playerbase feels/thinks and little more, and so I disagree with the OP.
Also... First post
|
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 15:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it.
Please direct me to the thread where 218,500 players requested this information.
Not only can you not count, your reasoning abilities are flimsy.
The CSM got answers in a quick and direct manner and asked the questions players wanted asked. This is a lot more efficient than the method we used before the CSM existed. What was it called? Oh yes. The Threadnought.
So, finished trolling yet? ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
|
|
KTog Juriss
Hadean Drive Yards
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 15:34:00 -
[21]
Edited by: KTog Juriss on 16/12/2008 15:35:29 I'll start with the CSM bit. It seems people still think of this as some oversight committee, put in as a response to earlier problems in the game. Everything I've read from CCP on the implementation of the CSM feels to me at least, that this is intended to be a community relations council. Basically something you go to when you want to feel out how the community feels on subjects, and having it done up in a nice little report. I'm sure they're more than that, but oversight of CCP of any significant impact isn't one of them.
On to the topic, which is the naming of characters, their corp and associated alliances. I'll ask simply enough, how do you prove they had any knowledge at all of what was going on with the moons. The people involved in this didn't just dump this stuff on the market in a way that doubled or tripled availability. So naming anyone that might possibly have been involved, no matter what their level of knowledge of the exploiting was, will instantly be branded as cheats and have people demanding their expulsion from the game as well. This would amount to little more than a witch hunt, with people leaving the game not due to guilt, but due to disgust with what the players had become.
In my opinion, CCP is well within their rights to not release names, as it'd bring negative attention to those that may have done nothing wrong. They should at least release the numbers of people involved, and just how far reaching this exploit was if they can track that, along with the final number of those banned. However, with an exploit that goes this far back, the investigation will take time. This isn't something that goes well with the ban them all now crowd, but they do need to make sure they get the right people. Otherwise, they might as well just become the next Blizzard, and ban recklessly, then have to make corrections and account credits when they realise they screwed up yet again. They obviously took out the accounts that were still doing it, now they have to try and prove the ones that weren't so obvious about it.
Lastly, I feel CCP does need to, in addition to the above, find out what went wrong when this was originally reported and correct it. If it was a misfiling of it, why wasn't that caught and corrected. They could simply say the company they had outsourced their support calls to screwed it up, but I hope we get a bit more than that.
|
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 16:34:00 -
[22]
Knowing how was involved is not as important as knowing that proper action will be taken. So if you think your favorite punching-bag alliance are a bunch of exploiting anusholes, you'll still be happy to know they'll lose a titan or two. (If the isk can be traced to them)
The question is then, how far is CCP willing to follow the isk. Not, who was it.
|
Plundaar
Gallente Golden Orb Technology inc
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 16:48:00 -
[23]
We need a poll then, who didn't hear about the affilated partys involved raise your hand.
btw, I'm not raising my hands.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 16:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 16:55:39
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo OP makes up his own figures and claims them to be fact. It is not CCPs or the CSMs job to pander to conspiracy theorists who will never be happy.
NO
The OP should take the advice in his sig but lacks the courage of his convictions. He looks like another whiner who does nothing else except complain.
My sig is a compliment to the guy who made the worst PR statment I have ever seen. That in times of George W Bush is a high a standard. It is a gift...
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan
Please direct me to the thread where 218,500 players requested this information.
Not only can you not count, your reasoning abilities are flimsy.
The CSM got answers in a quick and direct manner and asked the questions players wanted asked. This is a lot more efficient than the method we used before the CSM existed. What was it called? Oh yes. The Threadnought.
So, finished trolling yet?
I see you can't read. So I will repeat myself.
In any democratic process those who abstain are ignored. It is this way in the real world and it is as it should be in Eve or anywhere else. You can't know the opnion of those who didn't give it to you, so you work with the opinions you have. Your argument is completely groundless. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jah''Ret Khan on 16/12/2008 17:15:06
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I see you can't read. So I will repeat myself.
I can read, you're just completely wrong is all.
Quote:
In any democratic process those who abstain are ignored. It is this way in the real world and it is as it should be in Eve or anywhere else. You can't know the opnion of those who didn't give it to you, so you work with the opinions you have. Your argument is completely groundless.
Democratic Process!
Shouting like a troglodyte in the street isn't democratic process. Online pixelated spaceship games are not democratic process either.
The "reply" button is not a vote in some world changing policy.
But the voting system for electing the CSM was democratic process with votes allocated ot every subscriber and the outcome being decided by those votes.
I hope you can see the difference.
Now please stop posting, more deserving people need those pixels. And your first post is still full of lies. ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
|
Kurlieu
Gallente The Ore House
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kurlieu on 16/12/2008 17:19:39 No, they shouldn't.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan
I can read, you're just completely wrong is all.
And I see you base your argument in... Oh wait you don't!
Quote:
Democratic Process!
Shouting like a troglodyte in the street isn't democratic process. Online pixelated spaceship games are not democratic process either.
The "reply" button is not a vote in some world changing policy.
But the voting system for electing the CSM was democratic process with votes allocated ot every subscriber and the outcome being decided by those votes.
I hope you can see the difference.
Now please stop posting, more deserving people need those pixels. And your first post is still full of lies.
It doesn't matter if it is online pixelate spaceships or the ellection of your garden club president, both processes are based on democratic principles.
And replying is actually a vote in some world changing policy. It is just not the real world, but some pixelated world that is very important for you, considering your angry, irrational and diconnected posts.
I suggest you look for help. As this anger can make you ill, and I mean in the real world, not in the pixelated world you so much care about. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:30:00 -
[28]
No. It's not.
You fail at politics and forms of govenrment.
Where are those thousands of people who agree wiht you now? Damn... guess they're abstaining or something... ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
|
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:34:00 -
[29]
Etho You no longer seem to be debating your original post, and now seem to be attacking other peoples views. Perhaps now would be a good idea to re-think or re-iterate your original point...? |
Amarr Eh
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:36:00 -
[30]
Yes they should.
|
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan No. It's not.
You fail at politics and forms of govenrment.
Again you base your arguments with flwless logic. Oh wait there are no arguments here, yet again
Quote:
Where are those thousands of people who agree wiht you now? Damn... guess they're abstaining or something...
In the same exact place the thousands of people who disagree with me are.
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl Etho You no longer seem to be debating your original post, and now seem to be attacking other peoples views. Perhaps now would be a good idea to re-think or re-iterate your original point...?
Disagreeing with other people views is called debate. As long as it is kept rational and argumentative I like to debate. I find it very healthy. You seem to dislike it though. So why exactly are you posting this? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cyberian Ragnos
The Fine Gentlemen Academy
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:47:00 -
[32]
I fully support this, but I don't think they will do it...
@ the OP: Stop trying to argue with the Goon. It is pointless, Goons are trolls. |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:48:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Ezekyle Rahl on 16/12/2008 17:51:58 Oh my apologies I thought we were debating the position of the CSM. Its pretty clear that you... are not. Must of being the topic title confused me, but by all means continue to "debate" democracy with Jah'Ret Khan, it really reinforces your OP.
I'll see if I can get the powers that be to change the topic from "Should CSM members resign" to something more suited like "My views on Democracy" |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:57:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 17:58:20
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl Oh my apologies I thought we were debating the position of the CSM. Its pretty clear that you... are not. Must of being the topic title confused me, but by all means continue to "debate" democracy with Jah'Ret Khan, it really reinforces your OP.
The representativity and relevancy of the posts in this forum was questioned. I explained that those who ommit themselves are ignored in a democratic process. The whole point of the CSM would be moot otherwise, because neither their positions nor any motion in this forum will ever have more than 10-20% of the total player base.
So discussing about democracy is actually closely relately to my motion.
If you think the representativity of the people who post here is enough, the people that called for transparency in mass, althoguht they are NOT thousands, then the CSM should be adamant about the will of those who ellected them and resign if not listened to.
If you think the representativity of the people who post here is not enough, the CSM is not a legit voice for the player base and there is no motive for it to exist.
Either wai it should be disbanded... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:00:00 -
[35]
You seem to be under the impression that the CSM has the power to change things, as long as the majority vote for it |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:10:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl You seem to be under the impression that the CSM has the power to change things, as long as the majority vote for it
I am not. And that is the main motive I opened this thread.
The CSM, as it is, is just a PR stunt by CCP. It works as a facade so CCP can pretend it listens to its playerbase, which it does not. If the CSM has no power and can't change things, at least its members could deny CCP this facade. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Doonoo Boonoo
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 17:17:43
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo OP makes up his own figures and claims them to be fact. It is not CCPs or the CSMs job to pander to conspiracy theorists who will never be happy.
NO
The OP should take the advice in his sig but lacks the courage of his convictions. He looks like another whiner who does nothing else except complain.
My sig is a compliment to the guy who made the worst PR statment I have ever seen. That in times of George W Bush is a high standard. It is a gift...
And no, I won't stop playing. No matter how much it infuriates people like you. I suggest some anger control for you.
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm laughing my arse off at your failthread where you suggest the CSM should resign over this exploit and the lack of support it's getting. I'm laughing because you think you are entitled to know more. I can tell you now that you will never, ever get what you think you are entitled to and the CSM will not resign.
You however, are still posting your opinions and stating them to be fact. Imo your sig is the best statement CCP have ever made because it puts you firmly in your place doesn't it? It tells you exactly what I'm telling you.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo
What makes you think I'm angry? I'm laughing my arse off at your failthread where you suggest the CSM should resign over this exploit and the lack of support it's getting. I'm laughing because you think you are entitled to know more. I can tell you now that you will never, ever get what you think you are entitled to and the CSM will not resign.
I am quite happy with both supporters and contenders in this thread. Both have prooved my point. And I am under no illusion that the CSM will resign. Their resignation is not as important to me as the discussion itself. Thank you for keeping it alive.
Quote: You however, are still posting your opinions and stating them to be fact. Imo your sig is the best statement CCP have ever made because it puts you firmly in your place doesn't it? It tells you exactly what I'm telling you.
You are entitled to disagree with me and prove wrong, mr alt. Unfortunately I don't see anything in your words beside emorage disguised as trolling. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:26:00 -
[39]
What exactly would knowing banned character names accomplish?
Forgive me for saying this, but this just sounds like rubbernecking to me.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:27:00 -
[40]
Quote: What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
This was addressed in my first post, perhaps you overlooked it.
Quote: The CSM, as it is, is just a PR stunt by CCP. It works as a facade so CCP can pretend it listens to its playerbase, which it does not. If the CSM has no power and can't change things, at least its members could deny CCP this facade.
The CSM has no power over CCP they advise, end of story I think. |
|
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:43:00 -
[41]
But you have yet to answer the question. What exactly would this accomplish?
If you were to get names of banned characters, corporations, and alliances, what purpose would this serve? Is it so you can go about 'serving your own plate of justice'? Keep in mind there may be players/corporations which had nothing to do and may have not even been aware of what was taking place.
The damage has already been done. Knowing banned character/corporation names won't solve anything. It will just spur some of our most 'self-rightous' players to perform their own form of "vigilante" justice on whomever might have exchanged a "hello" with such offenders.
Really, I think the community can deal without the extra griefing at this time.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ezekyle Rahl
The CSM has no power over CCP they advise, end of story I think.
That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:53:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 16/12/2008 18:53:48
Originally by: Exlegion But you have yet to answer the question. What exactly would this accomplish?
If you were to get names of banned characters, corporations, and alliances, what purpose would this serve? Is it so you can go about 'serving your own plate of justice'? Keep in mind there may be players/corporations which had nothing to do and may have not even been aware of what was taking place.
The damage has already been done. Knowing banned character/corporation names won't solve anything. It will just spur some of our most 'self-rightous' players to perform their own form of "vigilante" justice on whomever might have exchanged a "hello" with such offenders.
Really, I think the community can deal without the extra griefing at this time.
It would serve the same purpose it serves to expose corrupt politicians in the papers. Name and shame them, and by association those closely related to him.
If nothing else it would serve to prove the innocence of those that are unrelated to them. As it is now, lots of accusations have been thrown by a lot of people. Some of these may be right, others may not. In the absence of information both guilty and innocent end stained, though. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 18:57:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Exlegion on 16/12/2008 18:57:41
Quote: That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all?
Perhaps it's because the CSM is wasting time and effort asking the wrong questions.
Instead of concentrating on the whodunit!1! how about they work on how to avoid this from happening again in the future.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 19:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
That is exactly my point. Can you point me a single situation where the CSM existence made a difference at all?
Now you're just being ignorant.
Watch the CSM panel video from fanFest 2008 and they address this question and answer it.
Your thread is an excuse for you to ***** about the CSM because you don't like it. Troll. ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
|
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 19:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel It would serve the same purpose it serves to expose corrupt politicians in the papers. Name and shame them, and by association those closely related to him.
They're perma-banned character names, not real life politicians. And what if their close associations had nothing to do with the exploit? What if they weren't even aware of what was going on?
Quote: If nothing else it would serve to prove the innocence of those that are unrelated to them. As it is now, lots of accusations have been thrown by a lot of people. Some of these may be right, others may not. In the absence of information both guilty and innocent end stained, though.
You're already talking about naming and shaming their "close associations", whether they had anything to do with it or not . All this would bring is a number of vigilante groups to conduct their 'own investigations, trials, and forms of justice'. It won't help.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ticondrius
Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 19:10:00 -
[47]
While the OP is a bit off his rocker, the basic point he makes is valid. What good does having the CSM do for us? Nothing. The only thing it DOES do is make us think that CCP is actually hearing our grievances as compared to never reading our posts on the forums...when they actually were.
So, instead of passively waiting for CCP guys to read our ideas and so forth, we now have an outlet to actively send them info on issues we consider important.
The ultimate problem with the CSM, as with the original method of making suggestion topics in the forum for them, is that CCP is not beholden to accomplish anything the Suggestions or CSM propose. AT ALL. That's like having the ultimate veto power.
The greatest issue the CSM faces is that it's not a meeting point for equals, like parliament and the US Congress is supposed to be, but is instead more like a religious interface where one can pray to the gods and hope for a blessing.
The CSM needs a House of Players, House of Developers, and a Prime Minister. And ultimately, be able to decide the direction EVE takes, not just provide feedback or suggestions. No one should be above the law, and right now the dev side of the table IS ABOVE THE LAW.
Before the 'This is a game, not RL' crew comes along, let me just say that it was CCP who decided to create some form of metagaming organization that became the CSM, making reality and virtuality begin to blend. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls |
Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 19:36:00 -
[48]
People complained CCP didn't listen to them and were evil corrupt monsters or something.
CCP gave us a direct avenue for them to listen to us. The CSM take the concerns, questions, ideas and grievances of the players to CCP. And CCP listen. And where CCP are led to believe work is needed and can be done, work is done. From what the CSM said they were also shown how it is CCP now police themselves and are satisfied that this process works and there will not be another T20.
CCP need veto because the honest truth is that a whole pile of players have stupid ideas and say stupid things, so the worst ideas that will damage THEIR game and THEIR company (not yours, you didn't programme it or fund the company 15 years back, you just pay to be allowed to play THEIR game) will be taken out.
They've given us a voice. Not control, not a mandate or whatever, just a voice. And they will listen to that voice and when they agree with us they will act.
This is not a diplomatic organization where we, the unwashed masses, call the shots. This is a business and the livlihood of hundreds of people, so they will call the shots. It was never sold to us in any other form, and no promises were made. ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jah'Ret Khan P They've given us a voice. Not control, not a mandate or whatever, just a voice. And they will listen to that voice and when they agree with us they will act.
They have given us a farse. Nothing else. We already had a voice, it was called the forums. We don't need the csm to have a voice, and they are completely inconsequent at this. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:12:00 -
[50]
I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
|
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:22:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
Is it going any further? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo I do find it amusing that this issue requires the CSM in order to get anywhere further than a forum thread.
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
So, it does not need the CSM after all, does it? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Is it going any further?
No, in my opinion.
So, it does not need the CSM after all, does it?
Your conclusions represent the diametric opposite of all indications given by the facts.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 21:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Your conclusions represent the diametric opposite of all indications given by the facts.
Then please list the said facts and the correct conclusions, please. If possible in an objective way. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Omber Zombie
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 23:41:00 -
[56]
/me abstains ----------------------
My Blog |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.16 23:57:00 -
[57]
Can we try to NOT bash the CSM every bloody freaking stupid assed day of the week and try to cut it down to once a month?
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 00:52:00 -
[58]
Dear Etho,
Part of the democratic process is having quorum. Just because a particular pet thread of yours was full of wet towel "me too" responses, doesn't mean that you have unanimous support from everyone who cares.
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 01:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
Whilst I agree the thread has gone off-topic, to call it an obvious troll thread is doing it a disservice.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Is the desire to have a public lynching or just an irrelevant troll or what then?
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
What exactly is the role of the CSM as far as your concerned? What was the point of them being involved in this at all?
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 01:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 01:57:45
Originally by: Mara Rinn Dear Etho,
Part of the democratic process is having quorum. Just because a particular pet thread of yours was full of wet towel "me too" responses, doesn't mean that you have unanimous support from everyone who cares.
The people who didn't respond to those threads might have simply been more enlightened beings than yourself who avoided an obvious troll thread.
One's refusal to participate in a lynch mob does not mean that one is abstaining from discussion on a topic.
Your failure to understand the purpose of the CSM does not mean that they should resign for having failed to achieve some goal which you had expected of them.
There are several examples of both democratic processes that require quorums and those that don't.
For the sake of clarity lets then define what you think should be the case here. Both regarding the members' election and their actions.
Choose one:
1) the people who don't participate in a democratic decision are irrevelant.
2) the people who don't participate in a democratic decision are revelant.
If you chose (1) then what matters here is the number of people who activelly vote for or against a topic and they should be considered as the totality of the voters in the subject. Those who abstain won't be considered giving their votes to one side or the other, like you wrongly suggested, but at the end, as the result of their abstinence they would have agreed with the wining side. That is how elections for government representatives work in most of the world.
I you chose (2) then both the CSM members and all of their motions to this date are illegal, as they don't have suficient quorum to represent not even 50% of the potential voters in the game.
Either way my point remains, they should ne disband either because they do represent a majority of the active people who asked for disclosure and were denied, and this majority is enough, or they should resign because the people who voted on them and who write in these forums are not plentiful enough to decide for the rest.
One last note, about your lynch mob example. If you are asked by the lynch mob if they should lynch someone and you say you will abstain from giving your opinion, you ARE helping the act to take place, and by the law of many countries you can be judged guilty by negligence. If you are against the act, the correct way of showing it is by giving your opinion.
Edit: And one more thing, you argue that I do not understand the purpose of the CSM. You are right on this, I don't, to the point that I think such purpose does not exist. If I am wrong, please, enlighten me with what this purpose would be? =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
|
Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 02:28:00 -
[61]
I wasn't sure I wanted to read this thread because I was afraid I knew what kind of posts it would contain. Turns out I was right.....
Who cares who the people are that got banned. They got banned and further information about the exploit is being gathered by ccp.
CCP admits they dont have all of the information yet and listed the steps they were taking to try to get the answers to our questions. Meaning ccp is going through backup tapes of old game states and data. This isn't something that is going to happen in 1 day or 1 week. I know that pc thingy attached to the typewriter is scary and magical, but even when your IT kung-fu is strong, the information doesn't just leap out at you. Its something that takes time to find.
I know the attention deficit crowd needs the complete information now Now NOW, but out here in what some of us like to call the real world these things take time to do.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I havn't taken my ritalin for 3 days and have to find the bott.... ohhhh, look at the pretty shiny over there..... and the candy and cake..... did I mention I wanted a pony too? and leave ccp alone ( aka the 'leave britney alone' youtube vid )
<<< From one warrior to another: Whether you fight with me or against me, the willingness to fight makes us brothers. >>> |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 02:40:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Olleybear I wasn't sure I wanted to read this thread because I was afraid I knew what kind of posts it would contain. Turns out I was right.....
Who cares who the people are that got banned. They got banned and further information about the exploit is being gathered by ccp.
CCP admits they dont have all of the information yet and listed the steps they were taking to try to get the answers to our questions. Meaning ccp is going through backup tapes of old game states and data. This isn't something that is going to happen in 1 day or 1 week. I know that pc thingy attached to the typewriter is scary and magical, but even when your IT kung-fu is strong, the information doesn't just leap out at you. Its something that takes time to find.
I know the attention deficit crowd needs the complete information now Now NOW, but out here in what some of us like to call the real world these things take time to do.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I havn't taken my ritalin for 3 days and have to find the bott.... ohhhh, look at the pretty shiny over there..... and the candy and cake..... did I mention I wanted a pony too? and leave ccp alone ( aka the 'leave britney alone' youtube vid )
I care about who was banned, as should you, considering your Alliance has been accused more than once of being involved in this. If you are innocent as you pledge, and I don't doubt that you may as well be, you should be wanting the maximum possible disclosure to prove your innocence beyond all doubt. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 03:54:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 17/12/2008 03:54:47
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:27:48 What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
Well, the explanation is as absurd as the fact. It is a very different thing to announce PLAYER names and character names. Announcing <edit>character</edit> names in no way violates user privacy, even because it is done all the time when such chars win prizes, for example. God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM ellection.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it. So I ask, why even bother with the CSM, if when the situation for which the CSM was created comes they can do nothing about it and are just ignored.
The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP.
I'm no fan of the CSMs, but this isn't an issue they can address or influence. In fact the CSMs have absolutely no hand in this one way or another. It's incredibly foolish to pin this on them.
This is a user privacy policy used by CCP and every other MMO on the market. The players involved in this incident will NOT be released. You can either accept that or cry about it. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 04:13:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 04:14:56
Originally by: Cyprus Black I'm no fan of the CSMs, but this isn't an issue they can address or influence. In fact the CSMs have absolutely no hand in this one way or another. It's incredibly foolish to pin this on them.
This is true. But then again why exactly do they exist? If they can't do anything to preserve the interests of those they represent they are just figureheads. Just a publicity stunt by CCP.
On the other hand, there is something they could do if they were true representative of those from whom they received their votes. They could deny CCP of this facade by resigning.
Quote:
This is a user privacy policy used by CCP and every other MMO on the market. The players involved in this incident will NOT be named. Anyone with any sense knows this would only cause further drama and backlash ingame. You can either accept that or cry about it.
Wrong. Nobody is asking them to name the players, just the characters. The user privacy policy does not apply to the characters, which are CCP's property and no one else's. Furthermore CCP has already disclosed information about characters in the past. This is just a lame excuse.
Quote:
Since the thumbs down option hasn't been implemented yet...
Just not thumbing up is enough =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 04:40:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base.
If you think 95% of the player base wants this, you're dead wrong. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 04:51:00 -
[66]
How does tons of "/signed" responses = we want the character names revealed? In fact in that thread, the 3rd response is a thumbs up who doesn't want names revealed. So your "95%" figure is just flat out wrong unless you'd like to give us your tally of all repsonses in that thread and follow up on each poster to clarify what they actually meant.
From the first CCP report, they stated that approx. 70 characters were banned and they were only 2 alliances involved. It can safely be said that a lot of the exploiters used NPC alts. I would if I were exploiting. So it can safely be said that releasing the names PROVE NOTHING. How do you know your buddies don't have an NPC alt that was exploiting? You can't prove it. Also, one cheater does not implicate an entire corp or alliance. It is only so that people can smack and rabble rouse and yell at each other and we do enough of that already.
Fact is that revealing names of banned characters or exploiters is opening up a can of worms that CCP can choose to open. CSM can ask for CCP to change, but CCP can and should ignore the CSM when they come up with dumb ideas.
CSM is ridiculous in its conception and implementation imo, but if people want to join it, then whatever. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
|
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 04:52:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 17/12/2008 04:54:09
Originally by: Etho Demerzel This is true. But then again why exactly do they exist? If they can't do anything to preserve the interests of those they represent they are just figureheads. Just a publicity stunt by CCP.
I am in full favor of disbanding the useless CSM. It's ridiculous to have elected players acting as "representatives" when only a very tiny minority voted for them. Just who are they representing anyway?
Quote: Wrong. Nobody is asking them to name the players, just the characters. The user privacy policy does not apply to the characters, which are CCP's property and no one else's. Furthermore CCP has already disclosed information about characters in the past. This is just a lame excuse.
Nope. Do you really want to argue over something so petty as nomenclature? Player/Character/Individual/Person, interchangeable words that reference the same thing in context.
Either name you want to use, the user privacy policy is still the same. CCP will NOT name the players (characters if you really want) people involved in the incident, no matter how much people try to whine and pick apart the EULA.
And just because CCP may have named people in the past doesn't mean it was the right choice then nor is it now. Naming individuals only causes further drama. It's a situation that has never worked out well in the entire history of MMOs. Not once. If CCP really did name people in the past, they must've learned from that mistake.
Sorry bud. No troll fuel for you. (feel free to stomp your feet and toss vulgar insults at me. It still ain't gonna happen). ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
Terra Mikael
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 05:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Treelox Your numbers are wrong, and your emo nerd rage is strong.
i lol'd in real life. ________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 05:10:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 05:13:32
Originally by: Cyprus Black Nope. Do you really want to argue over something so petty as nomenclature? Player/Character/Individual/Person, interchangeable words that reference the same thing in context.
Different nomenclatures exist because different things need different words to describe them. Players and Characters are not the same thing by very very far. Unless you trully believe you are Cyprus Black and fly in spaceships nude surrounded by a weird liquid inside an egg at its center.
There is no context that can make these two very different things mean the same, I am sorry.
Quote:
Either name you want to use, the user privacy policy is still the same. CCP will NOT name the players (characters if you really want) people involved in the incident, no matter how much people try to whine and pick apart the EULA.
No it is not:
- First you inserted this ridiculous italic part in the text trying to prove a point that does not exist.
- Second there is no such a thing as player's character. The EULA clearly specifies that the characters, their assets and anything inside eve are CCP's. They are only leasing them to the players. So if you really think players and characters are the same I am sorry to inform you, but CCP owns you.
Quote:
And just because CCP may have named people in the past doesn't mean it was the right choice then nor is it now. Naming individuals only causes further drama. It's a situation that has never worked out well in the entire history of MMOs. Not once. If CCP really did name people in the past, they must've learned from that mistake.
CCP never named people. They named characters. Do you really belive your characters are all real?
Quote:
Sorry bud. No troll fuel for you. (feel free to stomp your feet and toss vulgar insults at me. It still ain't gonna happen).
I am not fond of vulgarities, sorry. But I am quite willing to answer your posts, as there are so many amusing concepts in them. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Bunyip
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 06:06:00 -
[70]
Let me set this straight right here. If the only way to get an important point across to CCP is to resign, I will do so despite how much I honor this position the players have elected me to.
However, this crap about name and shame is baloney. They will not do that, and I don't blame them for sticking to their guns. You can continue this nerdrage if you want, but I will not. My point is made, and I rest on that.
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
|
Kaijusan
Gallente gallach minig Corp New Eve Mining manufacturing Organisation
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 06:13:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Bunyip Let me set this straight right here. If the only way to get an important point across to CCP is to resign, I will do so despite how much I honor this position the players have elected me to.
However, this crap about name and shame is baloney. They will not do that, and I don't blame them for sticking to their guns. You can continue this nerdrage if you want, but I will not. My point is made, and I rest on that.
Nerdrage? Is that what they call legitimate dissent now? Excuse us for wanting the truth Mr "Elected" representative.
Theres the resignation letter anytime you feel the desire to use it.
|
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 06:29:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 05:13:32 Originally by: Cyprus Black Nope. Do you really want to argue over something so petty as nomenclature? Player/Character/Individual/Person, interchangeable words that reference the same thing in context.
Different nomenclatures exist because different things need different words to describe them. Players and Characters are not the same thing by very very far. Unless you trully believe you are Cyprus Black and fly in spaceships nude surrounded by a weird liquid inside an egg at its center.There is no context that can make these two very different things mean the same, I am sorry. Quote: Either name you want to use, the user privacy policy is still the same. CCP will NOT name the players (characters if you really want) people involved in the incident, no matter how much people try to whine and pick apart the EULA.
No it is not:- First you inserted this ridiculous italic part in the text trying to prove a point that does not exist. - Second there is no such a thing as player's character. The EULA clearly specifies that the characters, their assets and anything inside eve are CCP's. They are only leasing them to the players. So if you really think players and characters are the same I am sorry to inform you, but CCP owns you. Quote: And just because CCP may have named people in the past doesn't mean it was the right choice then nor is it now. Naming individuals only causes further drama. It's a situation that has never worked out well in the entire history of MMOs. Not once. If CCP really did name people in the past, they must've learned from that mistake.
CCP never named people. They named characters. Do you really belive your characters are all real? Quote: Sorry bud. No troll fuel for you.(feel free to stomp your feet and toss vulgar insults at me. It still ain't gonna happen).
I am not fond of vulgarities, sorry. But I am quite willing to answer your posts, as there are so many amusing concepts in them.
Insulting? Check. Petty bickering? Check. Delusional rants? Check. EULA prodding? Check.
My my, you have all the workings of a forum troll. Through all your delusional rantings and confusion over what's real and what's not, you missed the point entirely.
It is not the CSMs responsibility. CCP will not name names. And you're just another whining troll looking for fuel. Ain't that a boost to your self esteem. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
LaVista Vista
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 06:48:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kaijusan
Nerdrage?
Nerd Rage.
Sounds extremely right to me.
Just because you don't get all the names of the players doesn't mean you don't get the truth. It just means that CCP doesn't break their own policy.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 08:19:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/12/2008 08:19:55
Originally by: Cyprus Black Insulting? Check. Petty bickering? Check. Delusional rants? Check. EULA prodding? Check.
My my, you have all the workings of a forum troll. Through all your delusional rantings and confusion over what's real and what's not, you missed the point entirely.
It is not the CSMs responsibility. CCP will not name names. And you're just another whining troll looking for fuel. Ain't that a boost to your self esteem.
Then it came to this. I can't see it was unexpected, Mr Alt.
As you decided to do your unbiased analysis of my post, I can do no less than return the favor, can I?
Lets see:
Premptively insulting -> Checked Ad hominem fallacies -> Checked Wrong EULA prodding -> Checked Alt character -> Checked Ignoring arguments and trolling the poster instead -> Checked Emorage -> Checked
Lets see:
- You come here to this thread and post a lot of absurdities; - After I debunked those absurdities you try to mend your arguments with a new batch of absurdities, like: "a char and a player are one and the same". preemptively calling me a troll for disagreeing with you; - I then easily debunk these arguments once again, and in the lack of any possible answer even remotely reasonable, all that is left to you are ad hominem fallacies; - You start to spill insults and provocations at me ironically calling me a troll; - And to finish you link an urban dictionary entry that could as well define you.
My self esteem is very well, by the way. I even post with my main account here. I know you are ashamed of yours, which is very hard on you as you think characters and players are the same, but with the right help you will get better. Hopefully...
One last advice, repeat to yourself everyday at the morning at least 3 times: "I am not Cyprus Black!". This will help you a lot.
Originally by: Lavista Vista Nerd Rage.
Sounds extremely right to me.
Just because you don't get all the names of the players doesn't mean you don't get the truth. It just means that CCP doesn't break their own policy.
How nice, everything our most notable member of the CSM has to say here is an ad hominem fallacy. Well done.
CCP has named characters in several occasions, most notably "he who should not be named" (for which they even inserted a filter in these forums). So they break their policies when it is convenient and use them as shield when it is not.
As you were so kind of linking your definition of me, I must return you the favor:
CSM Member Selection =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 08:58:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
Fantastic, so now you are almost all the community.
No, you are 1 player. Even supposing that all the characters asking in all the forums for the names are different players (improbable) the request come from some hundred players at most. Hardly a "almost unanimous request". so please speak for yourself and not for "the community".
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 09:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Dasfry
Originally by: Etho Demerzel So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base.
If you think 95% of the player base wants this, you're dead wrong.
He owns 190.000 accounts .
|
Omber Zombie
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:35:00 -
[77]
etho, who did you vote for? ----------------------
My Blog |
LaVista Vista
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:47:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
How nice, everything our most notable member of the CSM has to say here is an ad hominem fallacy. Well done.
It has nothing to do with ad hominem. I addressed a specific point where I thought you were inaccurate and then went on to disagreeing with "idea" that seem to be, if CCP doesn't tell who did it, they are lying. I think that's totally incorrect.
|
TR4D3R4LT
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 10:51:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community. The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page.
Exact numbers please? Community consists of accounts, not alt characters like this that can post in forums flaming freely x2 what the original character is not going to do due to his ties. Hence, all claims for majority of community demand account verified voting/questioning. Not some topic on on forum where you can repost your reworded flame so it seems that more people are rambling about.
Majority of the community, aka accounts, think this CSM-thing is useless, or how else you explain the "massive" turnout of 8,61% of eve in latest CSM elections? Let's read that again, 91,39% of eve was not interested or unavailable to vote for the bunch of people you now claim they want to kick out?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM election.
I believe CSM members can tell you that they agreeded for their personal information to be released when they enter to be nominates for CSM. So dont try to pull that string.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it.
Again numbers, where they come? How many alts included? On both sides to be honest too. Have you even bothered calculating the number of thumbs ups on the thread? Any backing?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP.
Let me tell you what's more efficient, why dont you go and cancel your accounts, recycle your characters and show your dissatisfaction to CCP that way. By min it's 15$/Ç per account or you can be safe, buy timecodes with the isks you get. If the majority of Eve community feels like you and follows your lead to the great march, perhaps ccp's eyes will open how right you are in this matter and they cough up the names. That 95% of community is making so much money they're literally forced to do it. After that you can return with all the timecodes and set yourself as Eve-o-fora's own Mao Zedong by fact that you took them to 长征
But until you do that, I'm more interested for CSM bringing issues like rampant macro-mining and ineffectiveness of petitions and especially towards macro's to CCP's plate then going trough yet another 8.61% CSM vote.
BTW that's not saying this hand should not be seen trough, but like you've said, CCP owns all the cards, and deals them so it's their game and their rules you need to follow if you wish to play.
|
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 12:33:00 -
[80]
Etho,
This isn't a call for any of us to make, not the CSM, not you, not me, especially considering it will do NO GOOD releasing names of characters. The harm has already been done.
If you're genuinely interested in helping, provide this thread with a reasonable solution to avoid this from happening in the future. This strongarm mentality that CCP must do what you want and say NOW isn't helping much either.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
|
fuze
Gallente Chosen Path
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 12:58:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Exlegion
If you're genuinely interested in helping, provide this thread with a reasonable solution to avoid this from happening in the future. This strongarm mentality that CCP must do what you want and say NOW isn't helping much either.
That's easy to say but it will CCP cost a lot of money. Hire professional QA people and get rid of those non or semi professionals. Better train (junior) GM and let the focus more on quality than quantity (same goes for QA). Spend more time communicating with CSM and take them more serious. Start doing unit testing on all the code thats out there. Randomize investigations on players and provide regular reports on the findings.
Some really controversial stuff. Prohibit CCP employees to play the game on TQ to avoid the temptation of corruption. Make the code publicly available so that everyone can check it for irregularities. |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:04:00 -
[82]
Originally by: fuze Make the code publicly available so that everyone can check it for irregularities.
Okay it's been awhile since someone posted something that left me speechless (for longer than 30 seconds)
Open Source Eve ftw !!!1!!!!1!!1!!!!
|
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:05:00 -
[83]
fuze,
Now here's a post worth discussing!
Unfortunately, I'm heading out the door and to work. But I'll get back to your response, as it is a great post.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 13:58:00 -
[84]
I almost feel bad for the OP and his alt. He's just trying so hard, spinning his wheels, yet not going anywhere. Good effort though. Like the little train that never had a chance. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Omber Zombie etho, who did you vote for?
I don't see how it may be relevant, but if you must know I voted for Ankh.
Originally by: LaVista Vista It has nothing to do with ad hominem. I addressed a specific point where I thought you were inaccurate and then went on to disagreeing with "idea" that seem to be, if CCP doesn't tell who did it, they are lying. I think that's totally incorrect.
And had your restricted your post to this that wold be a lot more civilized and we could discuss about this subject like adults. But instead both of you had to do ad hominem attacks, inadequate to your positions, didn't you?
Originally by: Exlegion Etho,
This isn't a call for any of us to make, not the CSM, not you, not me, especially considering it will do NO GOOD releasing names of characters. The harm has already been done.
If you're genuinely interested in helping, provide this thread with a reasonable solution to avoid this from happening in the future. This strongarm mentality that CCP must do what you want and say NOW isn't helping much either.
If you check in the official thread about the subject in the Information portal, both I and several other people have made suggestions to avoid this from happenign again AND to fix the major consequences of what happened this time. Especifically the gross of the money and assets that are still out there deforming the game.
But that is not the topic of this thread. The point is to discuss if the CSM is able to do anything that matters at all. In my opinion it is not. It is simply ignored by CCP regarding important matters.
Originally by: Cyprus Black I almost feel bad for the OP and his alt. He's just trying so hard, spinning his wheels, yet not going anywhere. Good effort though. Like the little train that never had a chance.
Unlike you I have no need to post with alts. :)
@TR4D3R4LT- Read my posts above for all the answers to your post. I won't repeat myself once again regarding quorum, representativity of the CSM and all the other subjects I explained more than once. And above all I won't discuss with an ALT. Post with your main. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Omber Zombie
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:28:00 -
[86]
Actually, I was just interested, I wasn't attacking you. Maybe you should talk to the person you elected about your proposal and see if she will sponsor it. ----------------------
My Blog |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 17:57:00 -
[87]
If we can't get the names of the characters.. then can we get a list of corporations involved?
Don't tell me CCP privacy policy protects in-game corporations too
|
Arctur Ceti
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 19:25:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 17/12/2008 19:27:43 I think its only fair we knew the names of all players that have been banned from the game and for what reasons. We should be able to know who has warnings and how many warnings. That is not a violation of privacy and CCP shouldnt hide it from us. I pay for this game too and I have a right to know. Csm should be on this like white on rice.
|
Vexara
Caldari Mentat Assassins
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:22:00 -
[89]
The CSM was created to give an impression that the players had say about the outcome of this game, the biggest issues we have about game play will never change the mind of the programmers artists, producers, and designers of CCP they seem to be drunken idiots for what I have come to see this past 3+ years.
The people who created Eve are not working on it, they are working on World of Darkness this is single biggest reason for all the bad decisions this past year, second being the merger of White Wolf that increased the size not the quality of CCP as an operating group.
The only good thing about the CSM is that the player base can watch as issue after issue are ignored even when the cases are presented in a well organized manor, so I wouldn't quit or support quitting, as the CSM allows players that care enough to pay attention that they aren't going to get anything they want that actually costs CCP money or effort that isn't already planned, which will give them a better educated choice of why they are paying to play Eve in the first place or accept that it is a declining pile that it has become this last 2 months.
The CSM is a giant trough of hopeful wanna be game makers that spew out ideas until one actually fits something that is already planned by CCP. I do not know how to make this any clearer then this simple statement. Go speak with the guys at CCP in person someday.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:31:00 -
[90]
I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
|
|
Vexara
Caldari Mentat Assassins
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:43:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
I am not paying them, they gave me a 5 day free pass after I canceled all my accounts. I came to this forum to find some hope that they might be listening the customers, and give me a reason to restart my accounts, but so far no good news yet.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:46:00 -
[92]
a "5 day free pass"
Yeah.... right....
T.T
|
Vexara
Caldari Mentat Assassins
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 21:49:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Vexara on 17/12/2008 21:55:42
I am not lying this is what I received from CCP a few hours ago, so its the only reason I am here. Enjoy being wrong. :-) This was wrapped along with a picture of my character, and some other promo art. I am happy they gave it to me, it is a nice xmas gift from CCP to be able to speak to fellow Eve players such as yourself, and what I consider the brain trust of all game communities.
Greetings XXXX
More and more players have been returning to EVE Online, and here's your chance to get in game and see why. For a limited time we are offering a free five-day pass to inactive EVE Online accounts. Your character is just as you left it, with your entire arsenal and inventory intact, awaiting your return. The leaps in performance offered by StacklessIO and EVE64 have raised the bar for congregation and combat across the universe. Stop by Jita and see what everyone is up to. Collect your new certificates and see what others you can work towards.
|
LC Sulla
Caldari Amok.
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:00:00 -
[94]
Edited by: LC Sulla on 17/12/2008 22:07:19
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:45:08
Originally by: Treelox
The forums only attracts about 10% of the total player base. Less than 5% of the total player base even bothered to vote in the last CSM. Less than 0.05% of the total player base even voted in the thread here about the exploit.
Your numbers are wrong, and your emo nerd rage is strong. I might agree to a degree in the sentiment, that CSM is pre-nerfed in their ability to deal with CCP, I do however strongly disagree with your logic and your solution.
In any democratic process those who abstain are ignored. It is this way in the real world and it is as it should be in Eve or anywhere else. You can't know the opnion of those that didn't give it to you, so you work with the opinions you have. So your argument is completely groundless.
Neither CCP nor EVE are democracies. One is a corporation and the other is a registered trademark. The fact CCP allow for some democratically elected representatives of the community to speak for the community is rare and novel. Beyond that the CSM have no source of legislative power, can enact no binding laws and have no ability to enforce their will.
This ridiculous proposal definitely does not get my support. Oh... and Etho, grow up a little before you start espousing the virtues of the democratic process. Dress it up how you like but you can't hide what you are. ------------------ Am0k.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:25:00 -
[95]
Originally by: LC Sulla
Neither CCP nor EVE are democracies. One is a corporation and the other is a registered trademark. The fact CCP allow for some democratically elected representatives of the community to speak for the community is rare and novel. Beyond that the CSM have no source of legislative power, can enact no binding laws and have no ability to enforce their will (and neither can the player base incidently - thank god for that).
This ridiculous proposal definitely does not get my support.
So you are saying that the CSM has no real power besides being a figurehead council right? Just like I said. Maybe you should read the thread before replying...
Anyways, if the CSM has no power and neither Eve nor CCP are even remotely like a democracy, then there is no motive for the CSM to even exist, besides being a publicity stunt for CCP and an insult to the players intelligence.
Quote:
Oh... and Etho, grow up a little before you start espousing the virtues of the democratic process. Dress it up how you like but you can't hide what you are.
You are attacking me, without any reasonable argument to support this attack at all, because you dislike my opinions. That is about as mature as a 4 year old child throwing a tantrum.
But yes, I promise that I will mirror myself in your maturity example here and grow up. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:31:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Vexara Edited by: Vexara on 17/12/2008 21:55:42
I am not lying this is what I received from CCP a few hours ago, so its the only reason I am here. Enjoy being wrong. :-) This was wrapped along with a picture of my character, and some other promo art. I am happy they gave it to me, it is a nice xmas gift from CCP to be able to speak to fellow Eve players such as yourself, and what I consider the brain trust of all game communities.
Greetings XXXX
More and more players have been returning to EVE Online, and here's your chance to get in game and see why. For a limited time we are offering a free five-day pass to inactive EVE Online accounts. Your character is just as you left it, with your entire arsenal and inventory intact, awaiting your return. The leaps in performance offered by StacklessIO and EVE64 have raised the bar for congregation and combat across the universe. Stop by Jita and see what everyone is up to. Collect your new certificates and see what others you can work towards.
The only thing I'm going to enjoy is the silence of yet an another griper in the next 5 days or less.
Being wrong is minor in light of that.
|
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:32:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 17/12/2008 22:35:07
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
That's kind of like, if you hate George Bush government, why are you still living in USA and not move to Canada or something?
I do believe that the current devs in charge of game balance and new features are like Bush of USA. We want change. We used to have good devs, so I know this is possible. We need to replace current devs in those key positions. I don't have much faith that the current people can get "better"
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Vexara The CSM was created to give an impression that the players had say about the outcome of this game, the biggest issues we have about game play will never change the mind of the programmers artists, producers, and designers of CCP they seem to be drunken idiots for what I have come to see this past 3+ years.
The people who created Eve are not working on it, they are working on World of Darkness this is single biggest reason for all the bad decisions this past year, second being the merger of White Wolf that increased the size not the quality of CCP as an operating group.
The only good thing about the CSM is that the player base can watch as issue after issue are ignored even when the cases are presented in a well organized manor, so I wouldn't quit or support quitting, as the CSM allows players that care enough to pay attention that they aren't going to get anything they want that actually costs CCP money or effort that isn't already planned, which will give them a better educated choice of why they are paying to play Eve in the first place or accept that it is a declining pile that it has become this last 2 months.
The CSM is a giant trough of hopeful wanna be game makers that spew out ideas until one actually fits something that is already planned by CCP. I do not know how to make this any clearer then this simple statement. Go speak with the guys at CCP in person someday.
LOL. I really don't think this is far from the truth tbh.
CCP can give an air of transparency on this by answering all the questions... who's to say they are the real answers?
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:41:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
To quote 8Z 6 in the Ghost training thread:
Originally by: 8Z 6
Another brilliant observation from the clueless commandos.
Who says we pay?
|
Jennifer Drama
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:50:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Jennifer Drama on 17/12/2008 22:50:28
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I care about who was banned, as should you, considering your Alliance has been accused more than once of being involved in this. If you are innocent as you pledge, and I don't doubt that you may as well be, you should be wanting the maximum possible disclosure to prove your innocence beyond all doubt.
Highlighted the part that's wrong.
How is knowing the player names going to accomplish anything? Spend 5 minutes searching well known third party forums and I'm sure you can find some player names, corp names and alliance names. Furthermore, even if you did find out those player names, does it change anything? They will already be banned. Or is it some self-satisfying desire to create stupid threads so people pay attention to you?
|
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:53:00 -
[101]
What he's saying... Etho "Crybaby"
Is CCP can do whatever the hell it wants when it wants.
If you don't like it... pack your bags and leave.
the CSM's purpose is to deliver information to CCP. Whether that information is accepted.... and or used.... is entirely up to them.
The CSM has no real power in the sense YOU want it to be. Out of the 30 to 40,000 some odd players.... the small number of people in the CSM are a nice way to filter out the crap from the good.
That's why its a elected body of players..... to represent the player base. They may have agendas.... ideas....and such... but all they get is face time with CCP...and a chance to talk...
Whether CCP want's to listen or not....act...or not act.... or say no comment...or say no period.. is bloody well up to them.
The power they DO have is the ability to contact CCP more easily and more efficiently than we can. CCP grants the CSM a bit more attention in the grand scheme of things then they would you because the CSM has been designated with that job.
So get it through your thick skull and understand that.
Or STFU.
Because you of all people are the most foolish one of them all if you can't get that figured out.
Asking CSM to resign is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing. No one gains anything out of it and your just making there jobs worse.
If anything you should close your account and go to WOW... there you'll get your so called freedom to do as you please.
In reality it won't matter if someone is politely pointing out that your wrong... or loudly calling you a total *******.
Because you wont hear anyone.... you just hear yourself talking all the time.
All your doing is pushing for the CSM to be disbanded for no reason other then the coincidence of the situation involving the exploit of the POS's.
And that is far more childish then anything Ive seen yet.
The CSM knows what they are getting into... after all they waste many many hours to bother to do there job on behalf of all of us... as opposed to sitting there throwing a damned fit and crying like some baby without his bottle.
I may not have gotten the one I voted for... but at least they are doing there best to make EVE better for all of us.
Everyone these days always has these astronomically high expectations. People need to learn to be thankful for what little they have... and stop being so damned greedy for once.
The CSM may have a term where they get very little done...... but there will be a term that will have much done....
I'm thankful for what little we do get... You however... are nothing more than a selfish pompous jerk.
So when your told to grow up.... I suggest you take it at face value.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:55:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 17/12/2008 22:35:07
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
That's kind of like, if you hate George Bush government, why are you still living in USA and not move to Canada or something?
I do believe that the current devs in charge of game balance and new features are like Bush of USA. We want change. We used to have good devs, so I know this is possible. We need to replace current devs in those key positions. I don't have much faith that the current people can get "better"
EVE is a game you idiot.... not a country. Stop comparing oranges to apples.
If you don't like the game you go get another one like every other human being in this world. Stop comparing real life to a game of internet ships.
|
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:56:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Squirrrel
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
To quote 8Z 6 in the Ghost training thread:
Originally by: 8Z 6
Another brilliant observation from the clueless commandos.
Who says we pay?
Someone pays for the account you use at some point or another. Whether it be money..... or time spent getting ISKIES.
Either way... the point is still very much valid.
|
LC Sulla
Caldari Amok.
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 23:03:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel So you are saying that the CSM has no real power besides being a figurehead council right? Just like I said. Maybe you should read the thread before replying...
I didn't say it had no role, just no real power. It's role is quite well defined and reasonably useful.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Anyways, if the CSM has no power and neither Eve nor CCP are even remotely like a democracy, then there is no motive for the CSM to even exist, besides being a publicity stunt for CCP and an insult to the players intelligence.
See above... power and utility are not always the same.
Quote: You are attacking me, without any reasonable argument to support this attack at all, because you dislike my opinions. That is about as mature as a 4 year old child throwing a tantrum.
But yes, I promise that I will mirror myself in your maturity example here and grow up.
Petulant and feisty little pup aren't you . I think you've attacked just about everyone who's disagreed with you. Hmm... Somewhere between, Ferrous Cranus and Enfant Provocateur
------------------ Am0k.
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.17 23:04:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Squirrrel on 17/12/2008 23:05:45
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Someone pays for the account you use at some point or another.
Really? Wow. Well that's a newflash.
We still don't all pay though.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Whether it be money..... or time spent getting ISKIES.
Has it ever occured to you that people can STILL like the game enough to play (and to effectively play for free through playing) yet not like the way it's run, some of the changes and/or the scandals?
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Either way... the point is still very much valid.
No, it really isn't.
|
Exlegion
Caldari New Light
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 00:20:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 17/12/2008 22:35:07
Originally by: Drake Draconis I gotta ask.... IF you people really hate it that much... then why are you still paying them money?
That's kind of like, if you hate George Bush government, why are you still living in USA and not move to Canada or something?
Dude. Just. No. It is nothing at all like that. Cancelling a $14.95 monthly fee for a GAME is nothing like packing up ALL your bags and family, selling your home and cars, and moving to another country because you dislike the current government.
Dude, seriously. No.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 00:28:00 -
[107]
Originally by: LC Sulla
I didn't say it had no role, just no real power. It's role is quite well defined and reasonably useful.
No real power means only figurative role. Check the Queen of England for reference.
In this case they do serve a role. They work as CCP's public relation facade. I am questioning the utility of this role to the community, and if its disbanding would be benign or nocive to the community.
Quote: Petulant and feisty little pup aren't you . I think you've attacked just about everyone who's disagreed with you.
You are confusing you and me, my friend. You attacked the speacher, I attacked the arguments. Between we two the difference is clear. I am discussing, you are trolling.
Quote:
Hmm... Somewhere between, Ferrous Cranus and Enfant Provocateur
Interesting. You would be more like:
Sycophant
or maybe
Me-too =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 00:30:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Exlegion
Dude. Just. No. It is nothing at all like that. Cancelling a $14.95 monthly fee for a GAME is nothing like packing up ALL your bags and family, selling your home and cars, and moving to another country because you dislike the current government.
Dude, seriously. No.
I am not the one you direct this post at, but I will answer this anyway:
It may be cheaper, but it is still the same. In both cases, you are giving up of something you like without fighting for it. If everybody follows this pattern nothing will ever change. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 00:45:00 -
[109]
/sigh
And the fail train keeps on chugging towards a non existent destination. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 01:06:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Squirrrel Edited by: Squirrrel on 17/12/2008 23:05:45
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Someone pays for the account you use at some point or another.
Really? Wow. Well that's a newflash.
We still don't all pay though.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Whether it be money..... or time spent getting ISKIES.
Has it ever occured to you that people can STILL like the game enough to play (and to effectively play for free through playing) yet not like the way it's run, some of the changes and/or the scandals?
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Either way... the point is still very much valid.
No, it really isn't.
Bolded funny part
That tells me one thing. "I waste my time/money for fun because I have no life"
Even if you enjoy the game... if all you do is complain.... then thats truly pathetic.. and you sir.. have my pity.
Can I has your stuff?
|
|
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 01:07:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Exlegion
Dude. Just. No. It is nothing at all like that. Cancelling a $14.95 monthly fee for a GAME is nothing like packing up ALL your bags and family, selling your home and cars, and moving to another country because you dislike the current government.
Dude, seriously. No.
I am not the one you direct this post at, but I will answer this anyway:
It may be cheaper, but it is still the same. In both cases, you are giving up of something you like without fighting for it. If everybody follows this pattern nothing will ever change.
Actually it's not the same, trust me i'm probably one of the few people on the boards that has done both. Really there is no comparison unless you fancy really really strectching the principle until it squeaks and spinning it out to try and make your over blown point.
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 01:16:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: Squirrrel
Has it ever occured to you that people can STILL like the game enough to play (and to effectively play for free through playing) yet not like the way it's run, some of the changes and/or the scandals?
Bolded funny part
That tells me one thing. "I waste my time/money for fun because I have no life"
Even if you enjoy the game... if all you do is complain.... then thats truly pathetic.. and you sir.. have my pity.
Can I has your stuff?
That's funny to you is it? You have my pity then.
I already mentioned in that post you quoted and therefore should have read, that people can still like the game itself - enough to play - and therefore ENJOY it, yet not like the manner that the owner handles things.
You're making yourself look a bit dim in my opinion. Bless.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 01:25:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
Actually it's not the same, trust me i'm probably one of the few people on the boards that has done both. Really there is no comparison unless you fancy really really strectching the principle until it squeaks and spinning it out to try and make your over blown point.
No two things in this universe are the same. That is why I personally dislike analogies. But things do have similarities and people tend to use analogies to put these similarities into focus.
No, leaving your country is not the same as living a game and none of them is the same of leaving a person you love, for example. But all three share some smilarities, one of them being that you are giving up of something.
Now, you may be doing it because you don't stand the country in question, or the game in question. And if that is so, that is what you should do. But if you are doing this, despite still liking it, just because there are things in it that bother you without even putting a fight to change them, you are making a mistake.
People invest lots of tim in this game, and it is natural that they get attached to what they conquer here, virtual as it may be. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
TR4D3R4LT
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 05:35:00 -
[114]
Edited by: TR4D3R4LT on 18/12/2008 05:36:25
Originally by: Etho Demerzel @TR4D3R4LT- Read my posts above for all the answers to your post. I won't repeat myself once again regarding quorum, representativity of the CSM and all the other subjects I explained more than once. And above all I won't discuss with an ALT. Post with your main.
You admit that your numbers are not based on actual majority of player but in majority CSM part of forum reading player base, making your op moot in it's message. Try to drive your proposition with proper numbers, saying 200 posters demanded instead of 95% of player population would change your post from without basis claim to matter that actually has some support.
Then you directly reply to me that you wont discuss with an alt. This creation of own rule I dont understand. The forums where you base your figures of support allow alt posting. Hence I'm neither breaking or falling outside of the rules for participating that you've yourself created in this topic.
Claiming that you wont discuss this topic with alt, but instead demand main shows that you in fact care for the account's main instead of alts that the account has. Taking this further how can you, if account's main is important, say that you still base your claims in op to a figure you got from a forum topic where alt posting *is* allowed and you have no way of confirming who is posting with multiple alts and who is not?
Looking at how against you're my alt post, I must assume you've done deep research on the topic in question and have found after it that the number of x (number of thumbs) - y (number of alt thumbs) is 95% of the total participants in the thread. As you've done this research, it should not be hard to release the true numbers as that would be the backing you need to bring this matter to CCP's eyes.
If you have no reason to tell difference between alt's support and main's support, why wont you discuss the matter and the details it's based with me?
Feel free to correct where I've mistaken your intentions as with proper presentation and actions it still could make good first case.
|
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 05:43:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:27:48 What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
Well, the explanation is as absurd as the fact. It is a very different thing to announce PLAYER names and character names. Announcing <edit>character</edit> names in no way violates user privacy, even because it is done all the time when such chars win prizes, for example. God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM ellection.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it. So I ask, why even bother with the CSM, if when the situation for which the CSM was created comes they can do nothing about it and are just ignored.
The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP.
Naming and shaming automatically creates guilty by association. After T20, people automatically assumed that everyone in BoB was a liar and cheater, even though the people involved (and even knew about it) could be counted on one hand.
Only the guilty ones should be punished, not the people who had no idea this was going on and were only innocent bystanders. That's why they don't name and shame.
EVE History Wiki
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 06:37:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/12/2008 06:43:49
Originally by: TR4D3R4LT
You admit that your numbers are not based on actual majority of player but in majority CSM part of forum reading player base, making your op moot in it's message. Try to drive your proposition with proper numbers, saying 200 posters demanded instead of 95% of player population would change your post from without basis claim to matter that actually has some support.
About the representativity of the portion of the player base that has active interest in the matter, I won't explain what I have already explained. Read my posts in this threads for your answers. If you still can't understand means you either are not capable of or don't want to. In either case it is a waste of my time to continue arguing with you about it.
About my figures. There are more than 95% of the posters calling for transparency. Transparency, if you didn't realize yet, means full access to the information regarding the matter. Anything that is kept hidden means there is no transparency by definition, only obfuscation. Go to the thread about transparency and count those that are vowing for it. Then get back here if your figures are different from mine. Keep in mind I did my figures some days ago, when I started the thread, though.
In your previous message, it was clear you hadn't read anything but the first post in the thread. In this last one at least yu give indications of having read my previous answer to you as well. Maybe we will be able to have a reasonable conversation when you read more of it.
Quote: (stuff about alts)
Alts are used to flame, to troll and to do everything the main account is too ashamed to admit doing. Therefore, discussing with alts is more often than not a huge waste of time.
Your previous post seemed to confirm that. This one is much better though and deserved an answer.
Originally by: Reiisha
Naming and shaming automatically creates guilty by association. After T20, people automatically assumed that everyone in BoB was a liar and cheater, even though the people involved (and even knew about it) could be counted on one hand.
Only the guilty ones should be punished, not the people who had no idea this was going on and were only innocent bystanders. That's why they don't name and shame.
Ignorance is always more damaging than knowledge. Knowledge allows you to check the coherence of statements in order to disprove lies and to confirm truths. The more information you have the more difficult it gets for you to be fooled.
On the other hand, in the absence of such information, the gap is filled with imagination, and any half-truth that can be partially confirmed becomes the accepted truth.
Only through information can the innocent that are already blamed by association (and I am sure there are many of them) can clear themselves from the stain.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
TR4D3R4LT
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 08:02:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel There are more than 95% of the posters calling for transparency. Transparency, if you didn't realize yet, means full access to the information regarding the matter. Anything that is kept hidden means there is no transparency by definition, only obfuscation.
Here you acknowledge you're talking about posters. Let's keep that in mind for later. Then you talk about CCP needing to give full transparency on names and details. Valid claims, however you fail on transparency yourself as you're unable to provide the numbers you have backing you up on this. Remember, it's your duty to present the facts, just like you demand from CCP, not mine to go dig it should I disagree. The OP as a post is misleading. When interested community members question you for facts, shooing them off gives message how caring for transparency you are.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Alts are used to flame, to troll and to do everything the main account is too ashamed to admit doing. Therefore, discussing with alts is more often than not a huge waste of time.
Discussing with alts, but not calculating them into the numbers of supporters? So alt is fine as long as it gives thumbs, but bad when it disagrees?
Are the following possible flames, trolls or suggestions that main account is too ashamed to admit of doing? What's your opinion and were it taken in to calculation in your figures that still haven't been given. All are directly from the first 10 pages of that thread.
Originally by: zenthral staichon Only signing this because I want to see people embarrassed and because I revel in the misfortune of others \o/
Originally by: Afale II
x up for witch hunt
burn it, drown it!
Originally by: Arianhod Haruhiists demand heads roll over this.
Originally by: RedSplat Taking bets on BoB involvement, offers accepted in ferrogel or any advanced material
Originally by: Etho Demerzel It is time for thus who abused the system to pay. And it is our right to watch the show.
Originally by: Kryztal name and shame the durty xploiters
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
-edit- need blood.
Originally by: Naomi Knight Purge them all
Along with long list of;
Originally by: Alt in newbie corp
Did you take these to your numbers? How many of these thumbs have been made with alts? CCP knows and while 992 thumbs might look like lot, when it's put trough alt check, the number wont come out as 992. However you were speaking of posters, hence we will count POSTS until you provide the exact numbers of individual alts posting. Remember, it's your job to bring evidence, to back your claims, not mine.
We need to crunch with estimate numbers, the thread has 1303 replies and 992 thumbs. You made this thread, 2008.12.15 22:26:00 exactly at the same time then post number 1261 in that thread then you edited your post couple minutes later, obviously correcting the numbers to be exact match.
After that, there has been aprox 10 thumbs on the thread and 42 posts, bringing us to 1261 posts and 982 thumbs. 95% of 1261 is 1198.
So even without going into the possible alt-posts to manipulate the results to up or down, it still comes out wrong. If you had said 77.87% backing or would release the numbers now, you would have case. But honestly, I doubt you have the numbers.
I believe, that you saw a trend and decided to try to ride the wave. By not taking into account how meaningless the system that's only meant to raise topics to CSM attention is for determining what majority feels you've spoiled what could have been proper opposition claim to buckle cabinet.
You've been left on the shore soaking wet after the big wave went and some nameless stranger is laughing at your failure from the cliff above. That's the reason why I'm against alt posting in this part of forum and also why I'm against of releasing the names of exploiters. They'll end up in the same shore while the nameless masses point and laugh. It's good being nameless but not so good for the cheat.
|
Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 08:18:00 -
[118]
CCP Doesn't have to tell you jack crap about who got banned.
Get over yourself and your ego and go see some sunshine.
--Isaac Starstriker Diplomat of SOLAR
|
Commander Leto
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 10:15:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Commander Leto on 18/12/2008 10:27:41 Edited by: Commander Leto on 18/12/2008 10:21:59 Edited by: Commander Leto on 18/12/2008 10:20:50
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: Vexara Edited by: Vexara on 17/12/2008 21:55:42
I am not lying this is what I received from CCP a few hours ago, so its the only reason I am here. Enjoy being wrong. :-) This was wrapped along with a picture of my character, and some other promo art. I am happy they gave it to me, it is a nice xmas gift from CCP to be able to speak to fellow Eve players such as yourself, and what I consider the brain trust of all game communities.
Greetings XXXX
More and more players have been returning to EVE Online, and here's your chance to get in game and see why. For a limited time we are offering a free five-day pass to inactive EVE Online accounts. Your character is just as you left it, with your entire arsenal and inventory intact, awaiting your return. The leaps in performance offered by StacklessIO and EVE64 have raised the bar for congregation and combat across the universe. Stop by Jita and see what everyone is up to. Collect your new certificates and see what others you can work towards.
The only thing I'm going to enjoy is the silence of yet an another griper in the next 5 days or less.
Being wrong is minor in light of that.
But how will you overcome your utter stupidity? Let me help.. wait there...
ding ding Vexara: Hello sir, why are you naked we prefer clothed customers what you do at home is your own... Drake Draconis: I am stooge for CCP! Vexara: Ahh I see that explains the nakedness, how can I help you? Drake Draconis: My unit is freezing in the coldness of Iceland, I want you... Vexara: Your unit you say? What is... never mind.. Drake Draconis: I am stooge of CCP and need respect so respect me... Vexara: Sir I have total respect for you, and your unit, how can I help you again... Drake Draconis: I went to fanfest and they said I could work at CCP if I first joined the CSM, then ran around iceland naked..they Vexara: Sir yes I have heard this all before sir, you are a poor soul that has been duped. This will not happen ever, please take this and go home... Drake Draconis: What is this? Vexara: Its called a jacket it will help you keep your unit dry and happy! Drake Draconis: I am angry and feel that I am right! Vexara: One second sir please wait right here for a second. Vexara heads to the back room... CCP Exec: Why are you bothering me? Vexara: Sir we have another wanna be naked man out front, said something about fanfest.. CCP Exec: Did you give him a coat? Vexara: Yes sir..but CCP Exec: Will he keep playing the game no matter what we do to him? Vexara: Yes sir he will... but CCP Exec: but nothing make him happy, make him go away, talk about walking stations and t3 it always shuts them up... Vexara: Yes it does sir but... we might have a bigger problem... CCP Exec: What is it, spit it out god dam you! I am playing Wow to see what we can steal next! Its our future god dam it! Vexara: yes sir and its important sir, but Drake Draco.. err the customer seems to be bleeding from the head, and his unit seems to be broken, I think he needs immediate medical attention! CCP Exec: Fine give him 20 GTC's and call the ambulance, right before he is taken away wave your hands in front of his face and tell them it was all a dream, and that everything is going to ok. Its the jedi mind thing - a - ma - bober.. you know from starwars..we could give him the other exploit.. nah Vexara: No problem sir that should fix him right up, thanks for your help again... CCP Exec: Get out! Drake Draconis: I feel lite headed all of sudden..passes out.. Vexara drags him out to awaiting ambulance Vexara: Hey take this guy, he needs help.. Ambulance Driver: Dont we all? Vexara: Yeah we do and Merry Christmas! Ambulance Driver looking at Draco then back to Vexara: I hate you. Vexara: That hate will keep you warm, and thanks!
|
Droog 1
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 11:25:00 -
[120]
Etho seems really angry.
No support.
|
|
Yoshi Toranaga
Panthernae Tygris Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 11:47:00 -
[121]
No -----------------------------------------------
Oh you know how much I have in my hands in the hands of your shipping records of burglary?
|
elric gallach
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 13:07:00 -
[122]
Originally by: LC Sulla Edited by: LC Sulla on 17/12/2008 22:13:24 Edited by: LC Sulla on 17/12/2008 22:07:19
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:45:08
Originally by: Treelox
The forums only attracts about 10% of the total player base. Less than 5% of the total player base even bothered to vote in the last CSM.
ON the basis of what you just said the CSM has no mandate to do anything and so is irrelevant. please refrain from shooting yourself in the footunless your trying to blow your brains out ------------------------------------------------------- Your numbers are wrong, and your emo nerd rage is strong. I you cant attack a persons point of view attack the person -------------------------------------------------------- I might agree to a degree in the sentiment, that CSM is pre-nerfed in their ability to deal with CCP, I do however strongly disagree with your logic and your solution.
so you agree CSM is nerfed then You really should put that gun down while you still have some toes ------------------------------------------------------ In any democratic process those who abstain are ignored. It is this way in the real world and it is as it should be in Eve or anywhere else. You can't know the opnion of those that didn't give it to you, so you work with the opinions you have. So your argument is completely groundless.
------------------------------------------------------ Neither CCP nor EVE are democracies. One is a corporation and the other is a registered trademark. The fact CCP allow for some democratically elected representatives of the community to speak for the community
I challenge that on the basis that the CSM seems to be more designed to speak for CCP. -------------------------------------------------------- Beyond that the CSM have no source of legislative power, can enact no binding laws and have no ability to enforce their will (and neither can the player base incidently - thank god for that). So you think that the player base should have no say in the game then ------------------------------------------------------- This ridiculous proposal definitely does not get my support. Oh... and Etho, grow up a little before you start espousing the virtues of the democratic process. Dress it up how you like but you can't hide what you are.
and there it is you finish you post with attacks on people instead of logic.
As for your support keep posting as you have. It only proves the point that As it is the csm is useless
|
Manakid Tetsu
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 13:07:00 -
[123]
If there is one thing in this world that really disgusts me is people who continously argue and point fingers till they are black and blue in the face and only really make themselves look silly when it comes to having the right to access information about things that dont neccessarily really concern them. The players that CCP banned have got their punishment, no doubt CCP will be attending to Corps and Alliances that indirectly or without knowledge of it have been affected by the exploit. Guilt by associatation, thats actually a petty thing to go after people who had no knowledge but yet have been caught up in it. Basically for some reason you feel the knowledge of people who are already affected will empower you some how, or is it because you want to laugh in their face.
Eve is not a democracy, nor do you really have any right to information which doesnt belong to you. Asking the CSM to resign on an issue is quite pointless and without merrit, as you are basically holding them resposible for you not getting information that you wanted, that is not their job |
elric gallach
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 13:49:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Manakid Tetsu
Eve is not a democracy, nor do you really have any right to information which doesnt belong to you. Asking the CSM to resign on an issue is quite pointless and without merrit, as you are basically holding them resposible for you not getting information that you wanted, that is not their job
clarify what exactly what is there job??
|
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 14:57:00 -
[125]
Originally by: elric gallach
Originally by: Manakid Tetsu
Eve is not a democracy, nor do you really have any right to information which doesnt belong to you. Asking the CSM to resign on an issue is quite pointless and without merrit, as you are basically holding them resposible for you not getting information that you wanted, that is not their job
clarify what exactly what is there job??
Ignorance is no defense.
I understand that you are one of the small minority that were unable to make the leap from the original concept of the CSM to it's actual implimentation.
But really, no matter how well you think your arguing your case, dosn't the fact you have no demonstratable support, beyond one or two others, tell you anything.
I admire people who stick to their principles, i truely do, but when they constantly shout about how they are sticking to their principles and demand that others follow their lead, irregardless of the percieved rights or wrongs of their argument, i frankly wanna go out and buy ear plugs.
I think we'd all respect you a little bit more if you actually fought a battle you even had the slimest chance of winning.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 16:25:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/12/2008 16:35:13
Originally by: TR4D3R4LT (snip)
Your numbers are wrong. You may have not computed those that stated support and didn't check the thumbs up item, and you may as well have counted more than one post of the same person. But regardless, even if you were right even 77% is still the majority by far.
Except for the calculations, you are repeating yourself once again, and I already answered to your previous posts. When you have something new to say please let me know.
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
Ignorance is no defense.
I understand that you are one of the small minority that were unable to make the leap from the original concept of the CSM to it's actual implimentation.
But really, no matter how well you think your arguing your case, dosn't the fact you have no demonstratable support, beyond one or two others, tell you anything.
I admire people who stick to their principles, i truely do, but when they constantly shout about how they are sticking to their principles and demand that others follow their lead, irregardless of the percieved rights or wrongs of their argument, i frankly wanna go out and buy ear plugs.
I think we'd all respect you a little bit more if you actually fought a battle you even had the slimest chance of winning.
History is full of vocal minorites that at some point or another became majority. The number of angry people that posted in this thread trying everything to discredit it, many of them trying to pretend they don't care while posting multiple times, shows how worried they are about it.
Elric and a considerable number of others support my views, they may not be the majority in this thread yet, but, as CSM continues to be the useless figurehead council it is, things may change.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Pax Ratlin
Gallente Woodland Larch
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 17:14:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel History is full of vocal minorites that at some point or another became majority. The number of angry people that posted in this thread trying everything to discredit it, many of them trying to pretend they don't care while posting multiple times, shows how worried they are about it.
Elric and a considerable number of others support my views, they may not be the majority in this thread yet, but, as CSM continues to be the useless figurehead council it is, things may change.
History is written by the victors, for every sucessful vocal minority there will have been/ have been a thousand who were the victors.
As for your use of the world considerable, that is sheer poetic liecense on your part. A more accurate description of your level of support is negligable.
But then again that's the point, this isn't an argument about facts, figures and substance, this is purely an argument about perception and your continued attempts to 'round up to the next level' your level of support says more about your perception of your agrument than anything anyone else can say.
|
Cyprus Black
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 17:54:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 18/12/2008 18:01:42 Wow, the OP and his alt must really want this list of names. A list that is inherently troll fuel.
Sorry, no troll fuel for you. One hundred and twenty six responses yet only eleven supports? Take the hint and move on. ___________________________________________________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 18:53:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
History is written by the victors, for every sucessful vocal minority there will have been/ have been a thousand who were the victors.
As for your use of the world considerable, that is sheer poetic liecense on your part. A more accurate description of your level of support is negligable.
But then again that's the point, this isn't an argument about facts, figures and substance, this is purely an argument about perception and your continued attempts to 'round up to the next level' your level of support says more about your perception of your agrument than anything anyone else can say.
Well, I happen to disagree. The number of disgruntled people like you in this thread is not hugely superior to the number of people that supported me. You just happen to post more because you are afraid of something it seems.
And even if you were right, if I am not nothered bymy position why should you? Do you care for me so much that you want to pretect me from rejection? That is touching but really, you can use your time for more productive tasks.
If, on the other hand if you want to discuss about the topic of this thread instead of my popularity, I am more than happy to obligue you. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Daemonspirit
Minmatar Redhawk Tribal Trust
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 20:16:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/12/2008 19:43:32
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
History is written by the victors, for every sucessful vocal minority there will have been/ have been a thousand who were the victors.
As for your use of the world considerable, that is sheer poetic liecense on your part. A more accurate description of your level of support is negligable.
But then again that's the point, this isn't an argument about facts, figures and substance, this is purely an argument about perception and your continued attempts to 'round up to the next level' your level of support says more about your perception of your agrument than anything anyone else can say.
Well, I happen to disagree. The number of disgruntled people like you in this thread is not hugely superior to the number of people that supported me. You just happen to post more because you are afraid of something, it seems.
And even if you were right, if I am not bothered by my position why should you? Do you care for me so much that you want to protect me from rejection? That is touching, but really, you can use your time for more productive tasks.
On the other hand, if you want to discuss about the topic of this thread instead of my popularity, I am more than happy to oblige.
If I am correct, you object to the CSM being a figurehead and nothing more?
CCP doesn't have to have a CSM, but they did it. Sorry it doesn't live up to your oh, so high, expectations.
As for naming and shaming those involved? CCP has said they won't, and they have said their dealing with it.
You can either trust them to do their job or not. But if not, there is a very simple answer for you. Leave.
Yes, I'm familiar with T20, and all that other ****. My point still stands. |
|
Daemonspirit
Minmatar Redhawk Tribal Trust
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 20:22:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/12/2008 22:27:48 What this last meeting proved is that the CSM requests may be completely ignored by CCP even if they are supported by the vast majority of the community.
Yes, they can be. CCP is a business, and as such can pretty much do whatever they want with their virtual stuff. vOv
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The disclosure of the banned accounts and associated alliances was a strong and almost unanimous request from the community, as made obvious by the motion in this same page. Even so CCP refused to comply, justifying with their policy to protect user privacy.
which they are under no obligation to do, at all, by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't like their answer..... --------------->|door
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Well, the explanation is as absurd as the fact. It is a very different thing to announce PLAYER names and character names. Announcing <edit>character</edit> names in no way violates user privacy, even because it is done all the time when such chars win prizes, for example. God, even PLAYER names are disclosed all the time, as in the CSM ellection.
So, in conclusion, CCP not only failed to comply with a request of 95% of its player base, it also invented lame excuses to justify it.
They gave as much information as they were willing to give. Matters not how may people request/demand to know ... And they gave the answer they wanted to give.. You are not entitled to anything more than what they are willing to give you... Regardless of any other input...
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So I ask, why even bother with the CSM, if when the situation for which the CSM was created comes they can do nothing about it and are just ignored. The CSM members should just mass resign and deny this facade to CCP.
Ummmm, Internal Affairs was created @ CCP - you didn't hear?
CSM was created for a different purpose. Sorry that is so much beyond you. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 20:45:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/12/2008 20:46:55
Originally by: Daemonspirit
If I am correct, you object to the CSM being a figurehead and nothing more?
CCP doesn't have to have a CSM, but they did it. Sorry it doesn't live up to your oh, so high, expectations.
You are incorect. I object to the CSM existence if it is only a figurehead. It is against the player's interests to have a figure head council. It only serves to CCP own interests as a PR stunt.
Quote:
As for naming and shaming those involved? CCP has said they won't, and they have said their dealing with it.
You can either trust them to do their job or not. But if not, there is a very simple answer for you. Leave.
Yes, I'm familiar with T20, and all that other ****. My point still stands.
Sorry, but you are late. Love it or leave it is a fallacy. If you want to know why read my posts above. It is highly adviseable to read what a person wrote before you start to argue with him about it...
Quote: Ummmm, Internal Affairs was created @ CCP - you didn't hear?
Internal affairs are a damage control tool. You can't trust an institution to police itself.
Quote: CSM was created for a different purpose. Sorry that is so much beyond you.
And such purpose would be? I am really curious about your answer...
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 21:02:00 -
[133]
OP exaggerates and has silly overblown expectations that lead to frustration when not fullfilled.
No. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Liu
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 21:08:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
|
Manakid Tetsu
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 22:01:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Internal affairs are a damage control tool. You can't trust an institution to police itself.
This exploit was a player exploit, obviously you cant trust players to police themselves either. CSM was created to be a part of the interface between players and CCP and to bring player ideas and concerns to CCP, this does not mean that they were given oversight on CCP decisions. CCP has every right to decide what information to give out, and although we pay a monthly subscription fee to use their services, we are not shareholders of CCP. No matter how much you want to believe that you have a right to the information, Customers in most situations dont get information like you are asking for.
As for giving out full information on the exploit, to what end, so that other players have more information to try and find another exploit along the same lines. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.18 22:09:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/12/2008 22:09:45
Originally by: Manakid Tetsu
This exploit was a player exploit, obviously you cant trust players to police themselves either. CSM was created to be a part of the interface between players and CCP and to bring player ideas and concerns to CCP, this does not mean that they were given oversight on CCP decisions. CCP has every right to decide what information to give out, and although we pay a monthly subscription fee to use their services, we are not shareholders of CCP. No matter how much you want to believe that you have a right to the information, Customers in most situations dont get information like you are asking for.
As for giving out full information on the exploit, to what end, so that other players have more information to try and find another exploit along the same lines.
Players are not an uniform group. Among players there are several groups with diametrally opposed interests, making them ideal to find irregularities, because those irregularities will be always against at least the interests of one of those groups.
CCP is a company, an uniform group, it has one and only one interest, maximize its profits. And in the absence of pressure against it damage control is the optimum way to do it. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 00:48:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 19/12/2008 00:51:24 Big "No" to this proposal.
Based on what I have read in this thread, you can list me as a default "no" for any future proposals by Etho. I'll speak up if there any future exceptions to the default "no".
Etho - please don't forget to count my "No" vote in any future vote-counting endeavors. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 00:51:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Haakelen
You are incorrect. The OP of that thread said nothing of the sort. It was a call for transparency on the subject. I supported the proposal on the grounds of transparency on the exploit, not for a pitchfork-waving crusade, and I can assume others did, too.
I agree with Haakelen here. CCP is a private company and they can do as they wish. If we choose not to like something the most powerfull thing you can do is leave.
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡ |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 00:57:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
I agree with Haakelen here. CCP is a private company and they can do as they wish. If we choose not to like something the most powerfull thing you can do is leave.
Slade
Leaving is not the most powerful thing one can do and certainly not the only one. That much I can assure you. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 00:58:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Leaving is not the most powerful thing one can do and certainly not the only one. That much I can assure you.
Sure what then?
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡ |
|
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 01:43:00 -
[141]
No to pitchforks
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 02:57:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Sure what then?
Slade
I am not going to repeat myself. Read my posts in this thread and you may realize it. If you don't, oh well, your loss... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Top Trader
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 04:24:00 -
[143]
CSM is a joke.
|
Kjellerup
Minmatar The Qing Dynasty Lux Caelestia
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 10:07:00 -
[144]
No
--------------------------- Empyreum Recruitment
|
Dionisius
Vagabundos
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 11:55:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Dionisius on 19/12/2008 11:59:33 Yep agreed, CCP should disclose all of whats been happening , who didi it, who is associated with these people and what have they done to prevent that something like this will never happen again.
Again its like i said once , the CSM business is a whole circus of figures fighting for notoriety ( lol! ) and the their own interests in the game, they have brought nothing good and new to the game or the the comunity and have served as CCP's shield from the players, this case just shows it.
CCP's statement that disclosing a nickname is a privacy violation is about the most dumb thing i have ever read, for that matter you wouldn't disclose player names on reports, on tournaments, on internet blogs and websites doing publicity for the game.
Further it shows that CCP has no measure of control over its GTC system, it has no respect for the people that pay the game to play by allowing this farse to continue. _____________________________________
|
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 12:28:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I am not going to repeat myself. Read my posts in this thread and you may realize it. If you don't, oh well, your loss...
Wish that were true - you've been repeating yourself for days.
Oh well.
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 16:56:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Rutger Centemus
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I am not going to repeat myself. Read my posts in this thread and you may realize it. If you don't, oh well, your loss...
Wish that were true - you've been repeating yourself for days.
Oh well.
It that is true, at least I can pledge that I have been doing it a lot less than people like you, who insist in making the same arguments time and again without even reading the posts that came before yours. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Anne Archer
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:29:00 -
[148]
Yes they should
|
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:32:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Squirrrel on 19/12/2008 17:33:10
Originally by: The CCP Spin machine
18.12.2008 19:31:39 Virtual Democracy in the News
Government, leadership, economics... these are major topics during these trying times. Nowadays, it's refreshing to see news about a political system that is working well and making productive changes for its community.
"The elected representatives were awesome. The quality of the feedback was extremely good." - CCP's Petur Oskarsson on the CSM Readers of PC World, Washington Post and the BBC News have recently been treated to some articles about "EVE Online's fledgling democracy," the Council of Stellar Management.
Hahahahaha...
|
Liu
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 18:38:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Squirrrel Edited by: Squirrrel on 19/12/2008 17:33:10
Originally by: The CCP Spin machine
18.12.2008 19:31:39 Virtual Democracy in the News
Government, leadership, economics... these are major topics during these trying times. Nowadays, it's refreshing to see news about a political system that is working well and making productive changes for its community.
"The elected representatives were awesome. The quality of the feedback was extremely good." - CCP's Petur Oskarsson on the CSM Readers of PC World, Washington Post and the BBC News have recently been treated to some articles about "EVE Online's fledgling democracy," the Council of Stellar Management.
Hahahahaha...
i find it quite revealing that this piece of news aint directed to a forum thread to discuss
Originally by: Apertotes tbh, boot.ini was overpowered and needed a nerf
|
|
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 20:39:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Rutger Centemus
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
I am not going to repeat myself. Read my posts in this thread and you may realize it. If you don't, oh well, your loss...
Wish that were true - you've been repeating yourself for days.
Oh well.
It that is true, at least I can pledge that I have been doing it a lot less than people like you, who insist in making the same arguments time and again without even reading the posts that came before yours.
You do seem to know a lot - or should I say 'presume'? You do not know me, nor what I have or have not read, done or have not done etc. You assume I haven't read, as I disagree with you. And people that disagree with you, must be silly, stupid, uninterested and have not read the forums - because who could disagree with someone that obviously is as intelligent as you, sir? Ad hominems, ad infinitum and ad nauseam - that seems to be the way you think you need to 'discuss'. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you on, of all things, a game makes personal attacks necessary? In stead of attacking my view or remark, you retort by saying that I must not have read the posts. Please, do get some lessons on math, reading and rhetorics - so far, you don't seem to be doing to well in this and other threads. But that's my personal opinion, I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree with that.
Have fun, I know I am (in game that is) .
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.19 22:32:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Rutger Centemus I You do seem to know a lot - or should I say 'presume'? You do not know me, nor what I have or have not read, done or have not done etc. You assume I haven't read, as I disagree with you. And people that disagree with you, must be silly, stupid, uninterested and have not read the forums - because who could disagree with someone that obviously is as intelligent as you, sir?
If you had read the posts where the answers to your allegations were written, you would have discussed about the answer and not repeated the allegations. Therefore it is not a matter of you disagreeing, just of your neglect to read what has been already posted. I don't need to presume it, it is evident.
Quote:
Ad hominems, ad infinitum and ad nauseam - that seems to be the way you think you need to 'discuss'. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you on, of all things, a game makes personal attacks necessary? In stead of attacking my view or remark, you retort by saying that I must not have read the posts. Please, do get some lessons on math, reading and rhetorics - so far, you don't seem to be doing to well in this and other threads. But that's my personal opinion, I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree with that.
Have fun, I know I am (in game that is) .
The person that was most attacked in this thread was me, I can assure you. If I made any attack to posters was as an answer to similar attacks and with considerably more class I should say =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Squirrrel
Gallente Squirrrel Industries
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 01:46:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Liu
Originally by: Squirrrel Edited by: Squirrrel on 19/12/2008 17:33:10
Originally by: The CCP Spin machine
18.12.2008 19:31:39 Virtual Democracy in the News
Government, leadership, economics... these are major topics during these trying times. Nowadays, it's refreshing to see news about a political system that is working well and making productive changes for its community.
"The elected representatives were awesome. The quality of the feedback was extremely good." - CCP's Petur Oskarsson on the CSM Readers of PC World, Washington Post and the BBC News have recently been treated to some articles about "EVE Online's fledgling democracy," the Council of Stellar Management.
Hahahahaha...
i find it quite revealing that this piece of news aint directed to a forum thread to discuss
Isn't it just?
|
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 03:18:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Rutger Centemus on 20/12/2008 03:18:20
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Rutger Centemus
You do seem to know a lot - or should I say 'presume'? You do not know me, nor what I have or have not read, done or have not done etc. You assume I haven't read, as I disagree with you. And people that disagree with you, must be silly, stupid, uninterested and have not read the forums - because who could disagree with someone that obviously is as intelligent as you, sir?
If you had read the posts where the answers to your allegations were written, you would have discussed about the answer and not repeated the allegations. Therefore it is not a matter of you disagreeing, just of your neglect to read what has been already posted. I don't need to presume it, it is evident.
"My allegations?" Which were what? I expressed discontent at reading post after post after post stating the same thing. Oh dear, you must not have read my post. Strangely fitting, considering your comment on my post.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Rutger Centemus
Ad hominems, ad infinitum and ad nauseam - that seems to be the way you think you need to 'discuss'. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you on, of all things, a game makes personal attacks necessary? In stead of attacking my view or remark, you retort by saying that I must not have read the posts. Please, do get some lessons on math, reading and rhetorics - so far, you don't seem to be doing to well in this and other threads. But that's my personal opinion, I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree with that.
Have fun, I know I am (in game that is) .
The person that was most attacked in this thread was me, I can assure you. If I made any attack to posters was as an answer to similar attacks and with considerably more class I should say
Not arguing against you being attacked by several posters. Some people's responses to your posts in this and other threads may have been, ehm, a tad overheated. As for the 'more class' - let's keep that out of this discussion. I tend to disagree on that, but that's just my opinion. Nothing to get wound up about, and something we can and will disagree on. No need for further discussion, as far as I'm concerned.
In general: just don't try to 'force' your opinions and views too strongly onto people. From personal experience, I know that this will do you and your points more harm than good. You may be right, you may be wrong, but namecalling and getting upset doesn't help strengthen your position in the least - it gives people the option to circumvent the argument, and use a personal attack in stead of adressing the points.
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
|
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 04:52:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 04:53:38
Originally by: Rutger Centemus "My allegations?" Which were what? I expressed discontent at reading post after post after post stating the same thing. Oh dear, you must not have read my post. Strangely fitting, considering your comment on my post.
If after everything I wrote, answering multiple posts of different people, you could find only repetitions I am quite surprised with your abilities to find patterns, or your desire to do it.
You alleged that I repeat myself. I happen to have already answered to this. You alleged that I attack everyone that is in opposition to my point of view, and I already answered this.
You have neither commented on the answers nor tried to point what is wrong with them. You just did the very same questions again. Please forgive me, if after repeating myself so much to answer people who did the same, I got a bit tired of it.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Not arguing against you being attacked by several posters. Some people's responses to your posts in this and other threads may have been, ehm, a tad overheated. As for the 'more class' - let's keep that out of this discussion. I tend to disagree on that, but that's just my opinion. Nothing to get wound up about, and something we can and will disagree on. No need for further discussion, as far as I'm concerned.
In general: just don't try to 'force' your opinions and views too strongly onto people. From personal experience, I know that this will do you and your points more harm than good. You may be right, you may be wrong, but namecalling and getting upset doesn't help strengthen your position in the least - it gives people the option to circumvent the argument, and use a personal attack in stead of adressing the points.
I am here to satisfy all tastes, my friend. I can have a civilized discussion with people seeking discussion, and a flame war with those that are looking for it. It doesn't bother me in the least. And I even find the last the****utic at times.
I don't try to force my opinions in anyone, as if it was even possible. People believe in what they want to believe period. But I won't stay quiet all the same when I see things that I consider worth criticizing. And if I can annoy those that are too comfortable with their Status Quo to think by themselves (and I am not saying in any way that you are one of them), even the better. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 04:55:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel the****utic.
Man, CCP must have contracted Homer Simpson to make this filter... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 05:54:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 20/12/2008 04:53:38
Originally by: Rutger Centemus "My allegations?" Which were what? I expressed discontent at reading post after post after post stating the same thing. Oh dear, you must not have read my post. Strangely fitting, considering your comment on my post.
If after everything I wrote, answering multiple posts of different people, you could find only repetitions I am quite surprised with your abilities to find patterns, or your desire to do it.
Again: I tried to state my irritation with people rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Don't think I've ever said "Etho Demerzel only knows 'copy' + 'paste'. Must be in one of those post by myself that I didn't read.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel You alleged that I repeat myself.
Affirmative. Alot of the posts rehash the same message, using the same arguments and following a similar belligerent pattern time and again.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I happen to have already answered to this.
Answered what? I don't think I posed any question(s)?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel You alleged that I attack everyone that is in opposition to my point of view, and I already answered this.
Nope. Where? You do read the posts now, don't you?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel You have neither commented on the answers nor tried to point what is wrong with them.
If by answers you mean the remarks in the OP: true. My commentary was 'no to pitchforks', and abstaining from the 'thumbs-up'. I thought this would be clear as to my opinion on the matter. Especially as this was posted in the Assembly Hall, and not in the Speakers' Corner, where it would (should?) have been posted if you wanted a / more discussion. Not that there's no discussion in this thread, but hey. If by answers you meant something else - enlighten me.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel You just did the very same questions again. Please forgive me, if after repeating myself so much to answer people who did the same, I got a bit tired of it.
Understandable that you got tired after admittedly repeating yourself that much, but honestly - which question(s) did I pose?
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I am here to satisfy all tastes, my friend. I can have a civilized discussion with people seeking discussion,
hearhear.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel and a flame war with those that are looking for it. It doesn't bother me in the least. And I even find the last the****utic at times.
Thought so. I know how that works
Originally by: Etho Demerzel I don't try to force my opinions in anyone,
Not sure if everyone would agree to that.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel as if it was even possible. People believe in what they want to believe period.
As true as it gets.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel But I won't stay quiet all the same when I see things that I consider worth criticizing.
Very commendable depending on the type of noise you make. I was always tought to think and gather information before I spoke. To each his own.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel And if I can annoy those that are too comfortable with their Status Quo to think by themselves (and I am not saying in any way that you are one of them), even the better.
Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, or who you're adressing. What status-quo? And, willfully annoying people just for your own 'therapy'? You can obviously think for yourself, but this statement would lead people to believe that you have a certain disdain towards anyone that doesn't think like you .
Oh well, internet arguments, special Olympics and all that stuff...
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no. <... |
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
|
Posted - 2008.12.20 05:56:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Etho Demerzel the****utic.
Man, CCP must have contracted Homer Simpson to make this filter...
Not only for the filter, judging by the way the forums often (don't) work
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
|
WheatGrass
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.12.25 23:00:00 -
[159]
The CSM is a great start by CCP of creating dialog between itself and the players. The sacrifices of the CSM are appreciated and I would prefer that members finish out their terms.
I offer each of them this virtual stuffed animal holiday gift as a token of appreciation. Perhaps the OP could have one as well.
Keep up the great work CSM.
|
Concorduck
|
Posted - 2008.12.25 23:36:00 -
[160]
I appreciate CCP taking idea from players. I don't appreciate CSM.
Here's my appreciation <----- -----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page] |