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WAR! UH! What is it good for?

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Marsan Production N Destruction INC. 19	Posted - 2012.04.24 16:00:00 - [31] - Quote Katie Frost wrote: Yandrel wrote: Serious question. What is War good for? Even with the changes coming in Inferno, what is War good for? Wars traditionally are for conquering territory and resources, or money, but occasionally they have had the goal of total destruction of the opposition. - Two null sec alliances fighting in 0.0 decide to cut the high-sec supply of their enemy's ships and mods = war declaration. Everything else is PvP practice for wannabe combat pilots. Last time I checked most NS folks use alts in neutral corps for logistics in HS.
Eryn Velasquez 33	Posted - 2012.04.24 16:31:00 - [32] - Quote Marsan wrote: Last time I checked most NS folks use alts in neutral corps for logistics in HS. Every war I'd been in has been annoying. Either the leadership told us to station up and/or lock down our wormhole, we spent days chasing smack talkers who were too scared to fight with less than 1 to 3 odds, or we had to deal with neutral repers who tended to out numbered the war targets.... Totally agree. Marsan wrote: In any event what wars need is a way for the defender to win the war. As it stands now an attacker can declare war sit in station all day and only come out when someone is mining or hauling. He can leave corp and go mission or the like. If a war target appears he can dock up and rejoin corp. What needs to happen is that the attacker needs have to anchor a POS or something like that in HS. If the defender destroys it the war is over. The defender gets the attackers deposit, and the attacker can't redec for a period of time (weeks). Ideally this should be an anchorable object like a customs office. Moderately hard to reinforce, and allowing the attacker(in terms of the war, not the structure) to set the time it comes out of reinforcement. Also neutral repers need to be concorded, and changing corps while in a war should take 24 hours. One additional thing - joining a corp during war should have a random timer set between 10 to 30 minutes after the corp accepts the application. GÇ£A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.GÇ¥-áGÇò Jean-Jacques Rousseau-á
Yandrel Combine Mining and Manufacturing Ltd New Genesis Syndicate 5	Posted - 2012.04.24 18:54:00 - [33] - Quote Exactly. CCP said in their War panel at Fanfest that they wanted to make it easier for war to backfire on the agressor. However, there's still nothing stopping the agressors from counter-turtling, again, making it unfun. You're right, Haulie Berry. I'm heavily biased on one side. Mainly because I have trouble putting myself in the mindset of a bully.
Ewo Deveraux Papercut Syndicate 1	Posted - 2012.04.24 19:52:00 - [34] - Quote Well, with the introduction of Dust514, we all better get used to wars. But CCP needs to think of ways to make wars profitable, or the consequences of pacifism so unbearable, so that players will feel compelled to get sucked into them, just like in real life. I could think of two situations where wars could be fun. 1) Wars to prevent catastrophy: Like in Settlers of Cataan: Cities and Knights, you have to cooperate or the barbarian hoards invade. I imagine NPC hoards would be interesting, where if you collaborate you can fend them off, if not your system becomes unsafe. Players would have to act in the place of CONCORD. It could force you to organize larger region-wide governance structures. Now that would be interesting. The larger your militia, the less you get rocked by invaders. 2) Wars of conquest: You could grant bonuses to corps that dominate territory rewarding cooperation and warfare. For example, maybe no player-owned stations or planetary extraction unless you dominate the system. Or extraction bonuses to those who dominate the system. The non-linear rewards for conquering territory would stimulate land grabs and generate automatic pvp warfare that is rational, organized, and profitable, not just grudges or griefing. Whether people fight to repel invaders or to extract riches, either way wars force people to collaborate, organize, and form governments. It is collaboration, not explosions, that are fun. They will not just collaborate to start wars, but collaborate to enforce the peace as well. You could set it up as a prisoner's dilemma game, where everyone profits if no one fights, but if someone breaks the peace, you have to win or you will be destroyed and impoverished. You could control security without concord, but simply by shifting the rewards or disincentives of warfare. Either way, the reason war is fun is not because you blow stuff up, but because it is fun to collaborate on missions. But if there is no reward for warfare, it sure does seem like griefing, which everyone hates because it is so irrational and sociopathic.
Ewo Deveraux Papercut Syndicate 1	Posted - 2012.04.24 19:56:00 - [35] - Quote In short, CCP needs to set up a rewards structure that will pull normal, rational people (non-bullies and griefers) into combat.
Zyress Caldari Provisions Caldari State 60	Posted - 2012.04.24 20:02:00 - [36] - Quote Ravnik wrote: Absolutely nothing! Say it again...
Lyric Lahnder Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 22	Posted - 2012.04.24 21:02:00 - [37] - Quote We need a war dec system in Hi sec. Eve isnt eve if you can be undocked and safe all the time. I support the idea of having defenders find ways to end the war, for instance if they do pay off a corp they cant be war decced for a while. It should scale though. Let say your money you ransom from another corp scales to the next time you can war dec them. The more isk, the longer time from when you can war dec them again. But also the down side of that is if the war ends at the end of war declaration and the defender doesn't pay up, you cant war dec them for the indicated time period.. Then it becomes more of a gamble. You really have to know you can hurt enough of your war target entity for your war dec to be worth it. In this situation you really got to be able to twist the knife to the point where the members are screaming for leadership to pay the damn bill and get it over with. With this mechanic you would also have to be able to declare war longer then one week, corps can stay docked up for a week easy and not have it crimp there style isk wise. Corp a decs Corp b: Month long war, ransom is 10 Billion isk, 3 month retainer, 30% value of ransom payed to initiate. Corp b: still standing at the end of war declaration, hasn't agree to pay. Corp a: Cannot declare war again on that corp for 3 months. Had corp B agreed to pay, they would have had a month of there lives back, and the war decers would have left with there initial investment plus 7 billion in profit. The bigger question is how to determine the cost of the ransom how it scales with time and the cost of the war for the corp initiating it. If the cost of war decs is based off of what your trying to extort the other corp for and not there membership size war deccing becomes more like playing texas hold em. Will they hold or fold? How well you can you read the man across the table? Noir. and Noir Academy are recruiting apply at www.noirmercs.comI Noir Academy: 60 days old must be able to fly at least one tech II frigate. I Noir. Recruits: 4:1 k/d ratio and can fly tech II cruisers.
Five Thirty School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 49	Posted - 2012.04.24 21:21:00 - [38] - Quote Lyric Lahnder wrote: We need a war dec system in Hi sec. Eve isnt eve if you can be undocked and safe all the time. This is where you've totally missed the mark. Corps that don't want to fight simply don't undock. I had a war just last month that basically involved the WT corp camping outside the station I was in, then later us camping outside the station they were in. Guess how many ships got blown up? ZERO.
Haulie Berry 21	Posted - 2012.04.24 21:29:00 - [39] - Quote Five Thirty wrote: Lyric Lahnder wrote: We need a war dec system in Hi sec. Eve isnt eve if you can be undocked and safe all the time. This is where you've totally missed the mark. Corps that don't want to fight simply don't undock. I had a war just last month that basically involved the WT corp camping outside the station I was in, then later us camping outside the station they were in. Guess how many ships got blown up? ZERO. You say that like it's not okay. Really, simply being disruptive can be every bit as financially damaging as destroying things.
Five Thirty School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 49	Posted - 2012.04.24 21:57:00 - [40] - Quote Haulie Berry wrote: You say that like it's not okay. Really, simply being disruptive can be every bit as financially damaging as destroying things. It's not even financially disruptive... out of corp alts to haul things and mine materials. Research / Invention / Manufacturing still go on as usual. The system is just lame. Make both sides duke it out with no safe zones or something, but the way it is now is just stupid station games by both sides.
Valkyrie D'ark Armed Resistance Movement 4	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:35:00 - [41] - Quote I just decided to randomly read the forums about Tactics and Warfare hoping to learn some cool tricks. Instead all I find are these posts complaining about wardec system one way or another. Do you people have no imagination? If you cannot engage in proper PVP yourself find someone that can! Make friends, allies... if you have no time for such nonsense and prefer to spend all your efforts making ISK then spend some of that ISK to hire Mercs! Be creative, be bold pilot, your fate lies in YOUR hands, not in some random griefers. Get rid of the notion that you're not good or strong enough.... if you must, ask for help in tactics, strategy, direct or indirect intervention... BUT FFS, PLEASE STOP WHINING ABOUT WARS! Thank you :)
Marsan Production N Destruction INC. 21	Posted - 2012.04.25 15:56:00 - [42] - Quote The problem is that the answer to finding good pvp is to get out of HS. The current war system doesn't promote good fights. This is why I live in a wormhole. No npc stations, no neutral reps, no local, no hot drops... PS- The best way to lose pursuers from a HS war corp is to jump through a LS gate.
Astroniomix EliteTroll 59	Posted - 2012.04.25 17:44:00 - [43] - Quote My personal favorite method for getting rid of unwanted wars in neutral alts in catalysts.
Ryday Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 20:04:00 - [44] - Quote here's one way to fix wardecs. If you're at war and you undock you can't redock at that station for 30 min. If anyone reps or boosts someone who's at war then they become part of that war for a day after a 5 minute countdown. That would at least do away with most 1 member griefer corps who use neut reps.
Daemon Ceed Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 61	Posted - 2012.04.25 23:35:00 - [45] - Quote CROFTED wrote: War I have no issues with war, one corp war decs another, kills a few ships, have a bit of fun. What I have a problem with is griefers. This is a game that we pay to play, relax and have fun. War should not be a forum for thugs and bullies to intimidate other player. When a corp is war deced the players should not be allowe to move corps. War is meant to be played out on the battlefield using tactics and superior ships. If you are not a war faring corp then you must not pay, you can only dock up or switch to an alt and work around it. Do not give them easy targets, if they want kills they will move on. But CCP must act to restore some balance in this game War should not be a forum for thugs and bullies to intimidate war? WTF? What do you think war has ever been for? I agree that if a corp is decced the players shouldn't be able to jump corps for a certain amount of time. The "battlefield" war ended looong before video games, where idiots lined up with innacurate short ranged muskets and stood still to be shot to bits. War today is guerrillas in nature. There is hit and run. Cloak and dagger. You're vision of war is dated and naive. This might be a game that YOU play to relax and have fun, but your version of fun and relaxation is not necessarily the same as everyone else. Personally, I relieve a lot of stress from my day by blowing something to pieces. You don't want to take away my stress relief and fun, do you? Ofc not. Post with your main or GTFO!
Eryn Velasquez 36	Posted - 2012.04.26 06:13:00 - [46] - Quote Daemon Ceed wrote: War should not be a forum for thugs and bullies to intimidate war? WTF? What do you think war has ever been for? I agree that if a corp is decced the players shouldn't be able to jump corps for a certain amount of time. As long as neutrals which RR, instant joining a corp and other coward "tactics" are used, this should not be changed. Daemon Ceed wrote: The "battlefield" war ended looong before video games, where idiots lined up with innacurate short ranged muskets and stood still to be shot to bits. War today is guerrillas in nature. There is hit and run. Cloak and dagger. You're vision of war is dated and naive. Why should a internet space game adapt the psychopathic behaviour of so called modern warfare? Daemon Ceed wrote: This might be a game that YOU play to relax and have fun, but your version of fun and relaxation is not necessarily the same as everyone else. Personally, I relieve a lot of stress from my day by blowing something to pieces. You don't want to take away my stress relief and fun, do you? Ofc not. But you want, that others play the game your style? So you can take away their stress relief and fun? GÇ£A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.GÇ¥-áGÇò Jean-Jacques Rousseau-á
Princess Nexxala The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords 33	Posted - 2012.04.26 15:20:00 - [47] - Quote 10/10 Brilliant thread! Is sexy time?
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 62	Posted - 2012.04.26 21:27:00 - [48] - Quote there needs to be an incentive for the defender to actually fight the war. Maybe the attacker has to put some money into the pot and declare some official goals and if said goals are not reached, the defender gets the pot or maybe the attacker pays to concord for each ship they destroy and if the defender manages to keep up in killing, they get part of the money.... i need to think some more on that...
Kazu'ul OMG PWNAGE 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 00:20:00 - [49] - Quote I dislike the idea of griefing small corps being more profitable or easier. If anything, I believe it should be the other way around, One member mentioned the idea of CONCORD 'sanctioning' each pilot, and for that there is a fee. I.E. Corp A (500 people) decs Corp B (10 people)- at a cost of let's say 500 mil for 1 week. Corp A sends corp B ransom notice - "We'll leave you alone for 1 billion isk) (and yes, I agree the timer for re-dec should scale, even furthermore I suggest the possibility of Corp B recieving dec immunity from anyone else, to prevent alt-corp griefing that we all know happens) I believe the cost should scale with A. The amount of players decing corp has and B. The amount of current wars defender is in I can't say this is their goal, but elimination of assets is a good thing in the long run - this nerf to incursions and anything in which people make too much money is a good thing in my eyes. I have not played this game for 7 years and accumulated 70M SP to have my assets and skills deflated - I worked my ass off a long time ago in LEVEL 3 missions (LOL!!!) to get a paltry sum of isk that a newb can make in a day nowdays - inflation has already impacted people such as myself enough, let's stop before PLEX costs 2 billion. I agree with changing the 'war' system - it is not fun most of time and involves docking up and un-fun tactics for the most part - concording neut reps is a good start in my eyes, but the idea of forcing someone to not be able to dock is reminiscent of living in low sec circa 2005 where you undock and get shot by people before your screen even loads - there's now an invulnerability timer to prevent these grossly unfair situations, and I don't think denying station games is the way to go. Station games should be a perfectly viable tactic - if the agressing corp has nothing better to do than camp you all day, thats fine. You obviously must have pissed them off, or they are just very angry nerds wasting your time, pissing YOU off. Either way, I see nothing wrong with that. While that is happening, no money is theoretically being made and thus is helps decrease the general assets of eve in the macro game. What I dislike is the gangbang/blob aspect - it should not be easy for larger, established corps to pick on smaller ones wether through a wardec cycle exploitation system or through making it more cost effective to do so - if you own a POS, you can't just 'unanchor' everything once war is declared - let's say you're raising a BC BPC by ME1 - that takes a week, and cancelling the job does not allow you to unanchor your lab, sadly. If this were changed, that would be a good start. Anyone in hisec with a POS is incredibly vulnerable to station game tactics, as they can camp your station and bash your POS - there's your reward as an attacker and motivation as a defender, but what would motivate someone without a POS to engage in war? I leave the question open for you -
Lyric Lahnder Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 31	Posted - 2012.04.30 16:10:00 - [50] - Quote I always thought it might be interesting if you could kick some one from station. In order for this to happen you would have to have Very good standing with the station owners faction and you would have to pay a some of Isk, LP, or a personal standing hit, or all three. Your bribing the station owner to boot the person from the station. This action would also give the person an agression timer to that station. So you could warp off and dock at another station you just couldnt dock immediately at the station you were just booted from. Again this wont hurt the booted persons standing with that faction, they were just kicked from station. The counter to this is the person in station would be given the option for a short period of time to pay slightly more isk or lp not to be booted by said faction. Another mechanic would be that once you were given this warning you would have 30 seconds to respond and you would have access to nothing but this window, that way people wouldn't be able to switch out to a pod or a less expensive ship or just clone jump. This mechanic would be good for three reasons 1. It fucks with the idea of station games completely. If your in a heavy ass faction battleship it will take a while to warp off. 2. Its and ISK LP sink. Good for the economy in the long run. 3. It may not make missioning any more interesting but it gives people one more reason to accrue standing and lp with a faction. The cost of this would have to be determined by the player getting kicked standing toward the station owners faction versus yours. Its expensive, however if there standing toward the faction is bad and yours is good it would cost less and vice versa. Just one idea for fixing station games. Noir. and Noir Academy are recruiting apply at www.noirmercs.comI Noir Academy: 60 days old must be able to fly at least one tech II frigate. I Noir. Recruits: 4:1 k/d ratio and can fly tech II cruisers.
Blobber NL The Ultima Thule 4	Posted - 2012.04.30 18:08:00 - [51] - Quote Katja Faith wrote: What the... what?!??! Can I have that 3 minutes back, please? You are one slow reader. But in my opinion high sec war is only used to grief mostly industrial/mining/missioning corps. Just anoying... ppl cant play for weeks and eventually stop playing (happened to me and a few mates of me a few times). Being in a corp to learn stuff as a noob etc, and constantly being wardecced. Awsome. Wauw. Sweet... If griefer corps really want some kills they should go nullsec or lowsec. You get the point.
StonerPhReaK Nasgul Collective Cascade Imminent 51	Posted - 2012.05.01 13:34:00 - [52] - Quote Jus click the surrender button and wait your 24 hour timer.
Bad Messenger draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 130	Posted - 2012.05.01 17:54:00 - [53] - Quote Wardecs are for allowing to attack war targets in highsec. How you want to use it is your call.
Lharanai Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N 149	Posted - 2012.05.02 20:36:00 - [54] - Quote Oh OH Oh HERE HERE HERE I have THE SOLUTION FOR THE WAR DEC problem there is only ONE way to end an war, both sides have to agree to peace, and if the defender does not agree the aggressor corp has to pay another round, uh and if the aggressor has no money his corp gets disbanded and all members thrown into NPC corps....... seriously don't take me serious :) Touch my ** and I will your with an rusty and into your , and then I will your until you ******************
Lharanai Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N 149	Posted - 2012.05.02 20:41:00 - [55] - Quote sorry for the sarcasm....seriously....just gtfo of highsec, do some exploring in low, or something different...EVE is a game not a job :) Touch my ** and I will your with an rusty and into your , and then I will your until you ******************

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