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Janis Kallisti	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:02:00 - [1] 2 of the 3 Minmatar Battleships have the option of running a viable split turret weapon system. The access of lows means doubling and tripling up on lightly stacked gyros and ballistic controls. Buffer shield tanking is the way to go; play to it's strengths. Most efficient; nothing is lost. Case Study: [Tempest Fleet Issue: DPS Support] 6 x 800 2 x siege 2 x Invuls 1 x Photon 2 x Lg Extenders 1 x MWD or ECCM or Senor Booster or Tracking Disruptor or .... 3 x Gyros 2 x Ballistic Control 1 x DC 3 x Core Defense Field Extenders I drones to taste.
eXtas Atomic Battle Penguins	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:05:00 - [2] yes and you still do less damage then a mega or abaddon...
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:08:00 - [3] Quite honestly, I think split weapons main advantage is versatility, like being able to deal damage with missiles where your guns do not track or are out-range. Dont try to turn a major weakness (i.e. requiring different damage mods) into a strength, wont get you anywhere.
scorpion007 Gallente Black-Sun Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:21:00 - [4] Never been a real enthousiast for the split weapons system but i have seen it been use with great succes and just plain awesomeness hehe ..
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.16 18:57:00 - [5] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 16/02/2009 19:00:55 Huginn is the perfect example for a nicely working split weapon minmatar ship, much like the Typhoon. Using ACs, missiles and drones, the split works as a major advantage with the ships bonuses to webs and target painters, as it enables the ship to freely choose any spot within its engagement zone and deal more than 2/3 of its theoretical dps, or go into range of all weapon systems while running a bit more risk. Missiles also have the nice benefit of being independant of your own speed, so you can apply most your damage even while you are already running away to warp off or get outside enemy weapon range.
Nugite	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:07:00 - [6] You're doing it wrong
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:15:00 - [7] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Quite honestly, I think split weapons main advantage is versatility, like being able to deal damage with missiles where your guns do not track or are out-range. Dont try to turn a major weakness (i.e. requiring different damage mods) into a strength, wont get you anywhere. Here's the problem though - you're not being versatile, you're just being weak in all engagement zones. The biggest weakness of split weapons is damage bonuses - be it from modules or ships. Ships themselves tend to only have two bonuses, and ... well, the typhoon has rate of fire applied to both launchers and guns as two separate bonuses. So... in effect, losing out to e.g. the tempest with 6 guns (+2 launchers) with RoF and damage on them. The only reason that the Typhoon works at all is because it has: Good mobility A huge dronebay (175m3) 8 bonussed weapons. The other problem is, of course, damage mod stacking - where an Armageddon can fit 3 heatsinks, the Typhoon has to fit 3 BCS, 3 gyros to get the same amount of 'boost'. It gets a better peak DPS when it does, but ... well, costs a lot of slots. But that doens't mean split weapons are inherently bad - they're not - the reason they end up being bad is because there's some rule of thumb in a CCP back office somewhere about slot counts on ships being equal. Mids and lows you can ascribe at least some measure of equivalence to - 6 mids 4 lows, or 4 mids 6 lows ... there's not a lot in it. Highslots this all breaks down though - the number of highslots you have means nothing, what's important is the amount of firepower you can viably carry - including things like damage mods, ship bonuses and dronebays. The fact that the 'split weapon' ship gains damage slower than homogenous weapons is a drawback. This is why the Naglfar suffers though - it has the same dronebay as it's counterparts. It has few mids + lows, because it has an extra high. It's DPS is _slightly_ higher with no damage mods, and it loses out badly when using damage mods (it's theoretical peak DPS includes 6 damage mods, which is higher than all the others, but completely insane in 'real world' fitting. And even then, it's not _that_ much higher). Net result - Naglfar does less DPS, and has less tank than any other dread, and gets hated for having split weapons - if it had an extra slot or even two (first to give it the same number of mids+lows as the alternatives, and second to counterbalance it's problems with damage mods). Or maybe altering capital projectiles such that they did significantly more damage in lieu of that last slot (projectiles rather than citadels, because that way you don't massively boost the Phoenix). Then it'd become a good solid choice - same tank as the others. Better DPS with no damage mods, about the same with 3, and more dps if you're nuts enough to run a 6 damage mod fit... in return for having to skill up two weapon systems, seems quite reasonable. -- 249km locking?
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:22:00 - [8] Janis try some heavy neuts in your non-bonused slots. One huge advantage for BS in my book is the ability to use heavy neuts - that might crack someone's tank faster than 2 weapons - or you might neut the guy that's kept you locked down so you can escape if needed. 4x Gyrostab II Power Diagnostic II Damage Control II Quad-Lif 100MN MWD Warp Disruptor 2x Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II 6x 800mm Autocannon 2x Heavy Unstable Neuts/1x Heavy NOS 3x Core Defence Field Extenders 5x Drones ~90k EHP ~800 dps from guns Against blaster boats you'd want to try to stay at 20km with barrage (webbing drones might help). Against Caldari/Amarr I would dive in for max dps. Basically the Minmatar Version of the Torp Raven... Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
Janis Kallisti	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:22:00 - [9] To eXtas: Yes. But how much damage is a Mega or Abaddon do to me? To Nugite: That's what I'm talking about. I'd proudly go down in that thing. Looks like fun.
Nugite	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Janis Kallisti To Nugite: That's what I'm talking about. I'd proudly go down in that thing. Looks like fun. Unfortunately though, people are right. While my setup is very hilarious and very effective, it fits a very niche role and needs friends to tackle, web, and target paint for it to be wholly appreciated. Well fit megas/abaddons will give you a very hard day in a tempest. I would take 2 heavy neuts over 2 unbonused torp launchers any day, theres just much more versatility there, to cap out tacklers and break tanks. Especially since your weapons are capless, people rarely see that as the advantage that it can be. The typhoon however, is another story .
Caldari Citizen4714	Posted - 2009.02.16 19:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Nugite Originally by: Janis Kallisti To Nugite: That's what I'm talking about. I'd proudly go down in that thing. Looks like fun. Unfortunately though, people are right. While my setup is very hilarious and very effective, it fits a very niche role and needs friends to tackle, web, and target paint for it to be wholly appreciated. Well fit megas/abaddons will give you a very hard day in a tempest. I would take 2 heavy neuts over 2 unbonused torp launchers any day, theres just much more versatility there, to cap out tacklers and break tanks. Especially since your weapons are capless, people rarely see that as the advantage that it can be. The typhoon however, is another story . Except nobody actually flies your setup because it's EFT warrior hogwash.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.02.16 23:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Nugite Originally by: Janis Kallisti To Nugite: That's what I'm talking about. I'd proudly go down in that thing. Looks like fun. Unfortunately though, people are right. While my setup is very hilarious and very effective, it fits a very niche role and needs friends to tackle, web, and target paint for it to be wholly appreciated. Well fit megas/abaddons will give you a very hard day in a tempest. I would take 2 heavy neuts over 2 unbonused torp launchers any day, theres just much more versatility there, to cap out tacklers and break tanks. Especially since your weapons are capless, people rarely see that as the advantage that it can be. The typhoon however, is another story . Except nobody actually flies your setup because it's EFT warrior hogwash. You mistaken. I flown something simmilar for some time on small scale low sec combat (but gang always had 1 scimitar) worked very well on that scenario. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SickSeven The Undead Righteous Knights	Posted - 2009.02.16 23:18:00 - [13] Split weapons is a curse to all minmatar. The firetail has pitiful damage. The Typhoon actually has a three-way split drones/missles/guns = the most skill intensive tier1 battleship in the game. The Naglfar needs 30+ more days to train than the other dreads and is not even the top damage dealer. IF we must have split weapons, them at least make the extra training worthwhile. The Typhoon is awesome once you get the skills, but you'd probably get to Marauder quicker. The Naglfar and Firetail and now even that damned fleet Scythe need bonuses to actually make them competitive.
Nugite	Posted - 2009.02.16 23:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Nugite Originally by: Janis Kallisti To Nugite: That's what I'm talking about. I'd proudly go down in that thing. Looks like fun. Unfortunately though, people are right. While my setup is very hilarious and very effective, it fits a very niche role and needs friends to tackle, web, and target paint for it to be wholly appreciated. Well fit megas/abaddons will give you a very hard day in a tempest. I would take 2 heavy neuts over 2 unbonused torp launchers any day, theres just much more versatility there, to cap out tacklers and break tanks. Especially since your weapons are capless, people rarely see that as the advantage that it can be. The typhoon however, is another story . Except nobody actually flies your setup because it's EFT warrior hogwash. You're statement makes a generalization about everyone that plays this game. Did you ever consider some people may not play the game for the same reasons you do? To some, that may mean going down in a glorious way fireball of hail and rage ammo, not "omg I need to fly the optimal setup I need to win".
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.17 00:20:00 - [15] The nag has always struck me as the most badass (looking) ship in game. That alone could be reason enough, unfortunately, corps and alliances buy most the dreads in this game, and any bureaucrat is going to care more about DPS and survivability than anything. Hell, just finding a minnie cap pilot is trying at times. Give it an extra slot in the lows to compensate for the split...in fact, do that with all split weapon system ships and I think we have a decent solution. (Even the huginn is said to have problems having a role against the rapier) ----------------- Friends Forever
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.17 00:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg The nag has always struck me as the most badass (looking) ship in game. That alone could be reason enough, unfortunately, corps and alliances buy most the dreads in this game, and any bureaucrat is going to care more about DPS and survivability than anything. Hell, just finding a minnie cap pilot is trying at times. Give it an extra slot in the lows to compensate for the split...in fact, do that with all split weapon system ships and I think we have a decent solution. (Even the huginn is said to have problems having a role against the rapier) Extra mid for the phoon would be nice... tbh My alt is nearly in a Naglfar... woot woot, but I'd much rather get my hands on a Hel. ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:02:00 - [17] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lilith Velkor Quite honestly, I think split weapons main advantage is versatility, like being able to deal damage with missiles where your guns do not track or are out-range. Dont try to turn a major weakness (i.e. requiring different damage mods) into a strength, wont get you anywhere. Here's the problem though - you're not being versatile, you're just being weak in all engagement zones. Thats not a problem as long as I can dictate range and thus choose a zone where my enemy has more trouble than I have. Being flexible is paramount on minnie ships really, you'll not likely be superior if you take stuff heads-on.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.18 01:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 18/02/2009 01:55:32 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 18/02/2009 01:54:30 Originally by: Haniblecter Teg (Even the huginn is said to have problems having a role against the rapier) Which is not true really. Since the QR patch it makes more sense flying Huginn again, as the Rapier will take ages to kill a single frigate. I really like the split weapon system on it, combined with its bonus to 3 launcher types it makes it very versatile in fittings. I see that the lack of a cloak is a problem for many ppl, but if you got balls you dont need a cloak, besides it still works decently nanoed. Edit: admittedly it is maybe the best ship to make use of split weapons all-around.
Altar Mei Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2009.02.18 03:37:00 - [19] The abba, geddon, and mega can all drop some guns, pick up two nuets and have more dps plus a better tank(passive tank) than the phoon or tempy. The nos nerf really hurt both of these ships. Real versatility would be a 5/5 or 6/6 split on the phoon and a 4/4 split on the huginn. This way you can really mix it up plus it has the added bonus of being easier skill point wise for noobs and still rewards veterans that choose to develop their skills across missiles and gunnery. The 6/6 split is probably makes the phoon to raven like but I'd be willing to give up some of the drone bay for it even though my drones skillz are almost maxed.
Jettisoned Can THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.18 04:50:00 - [20] The reason the typhoon is so much better as a split weapon system ship than any other is that it replaces good bonuses with increased base firepower. Not only is it able to equip 8 weapons unlike other tier 1 BSs, but it also has a full flight of heavy drones. Fleet scythe could be a great ship if they'd just increase the drone bay. _________________________ Did you really not have enough room for me? I'm only 1m¦.
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.02.18 04:58:00 - [21] in before the "it's freakkin' vertical" guy --------------------------------- "I robbed a goon and I liked it" - Suas
Tybalt Usra	Posted - 2009.02.18 13:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lilith Velkor Quite honestly, I think split weapons main advantage is versatility, like being able to deal damage with missiles where your guns do not track or are out-range. Dont try to turn a major weakness (i.e. requiring different damage mods) into a strength, wont get you anywhere. Here's the problem though - you're not being versatile, you're just being weak in all engagement zones. Thats not a problem as long as I can dictate range and thus choose a zone where my enemy has more trouble than I have. Being flexible is paramount on minnie ships really, you'll not likely be superior if you take stuff heads-on. Incorrect, an abbadon especially is going to match you at all ranges within disruption range. Megathron with null you are going to have to try and pin over 20km really and at that range even with max skills torps aint gonna be hitting amoving target.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.18 19:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Tybalt Usra Incorrect, an abbadon especially is going to match you at all ranges within disruption range. If I am in a phoon I could run up to him at 0km where no turret hits, and still apply all my torp and drone damage, while he is reduced to the pitiful dps of 75m¦ drones. Quote: Megathron with null you are going to have to try and pin over 20km really and at that range even with max skills torps aint gonna be hitting amoving target. As long as I'm faster, why not just load barrage + javelin torps and keep him at a convenient 25km where I outdamage him easy? Granted the speed advantage is not that great with javelins, but you can switch when you are at range.
Compendium	Posted - 2009.02.18 21:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: Tybalt Usra Incorrect, an abbadon especially is going to match you at all ranges within disruption range. If I am in a phoon I could run up to him at 0km where no turret hits, and still apply all my torp and drone damage, while he is reduced to the pitiful dps of 75m¦ drones. Quote: Megathron with null you are going to have to try and pin over 20km really and at that range even with max skills torps aint gonna be hitting amoving target. As long as I'm faster, why not just load barrage + javelin torps and keep him at a convenient 25km where I outdamage him easy? Granted the speed advantage is not that great with javelins, but you can switch when you are at range. Where do you plan to get the powergrid for the tech 2 weapons? It barely has the powergrid to fit a MWD, plated tank, and best named weapons.
Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2009.02.18 22:59:00 - [25] surely the fact that it is split weapons means you get an advantage from damage mods. Because the 1 mod of each type will not stack, and so 2 mods will be boosting at maximum amount?
Captain Rockharder	Posted - 2009.02.18 23:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Jayne Tamm surely the fact that it is split weapons means you get an advantage from damage mods. Because the 1 mod of each type will not stack, and so 2 mods will be boosting at maximum amount? True... for half of your weapons
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.18 23:22:00 - [27] I'm curious what the people who believe the typhoon is a poor ship are basing it off of? Split weapons in general do not make a ship bad unless you define bad as being a split weapon system. What definition is everyone going off of for determining if this ship is bad or good? Personally I classify the Typhoon in the same category as the Armageddon, Abaddon, and Megathron. All four of them are close up gank ships in my mind. They all are capable of putting out huge amounts of DPS alongside a rather significant buffer tank. Two of the four are Tier 2 which, if I'm not mistaken, gives them more CPU and powergrid. The Armageddon and the Typhoon are more on the same page being Tier 1 and both being ganky ships. It eats things. Is it good at eating things? Would you enjoy being caught within 10km of a buffer+gank typhoon? You probably wouldn't. You probably wouldn't like to be orbitting a typhoon at 500 meters where your guns probably won't hit but the phoons torps and drones still do. Or maybe he'll be cruise fit and stay outside of your effective range...I've personally never see versatility as a drawback but as an advantage (I started out in PVP using the arbitrator). Blah blah blah I rant blah blah. --- Put in space whales!
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Compendium Where do you plan to get the powergrid for the tech 2 weapons? It barely has the powergrid to fit a MWD, plated tank, and best named weapons. Ancilliary Current Router?
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Captain Rockharder Originally by: Jayne Tamm surely the fact that it is split weapons means you get an advantage from damage mods. Because the 1 mod of each type will not stack, and so 2 mods will be boosting at maximum amount? True... for half of your weapons And here is some math to back to you up too: Take two theoretical ships, one that evenly splits it's damage between two different weapon systems, one that doesn't. They both theoretically do 100dps. Add a single module that adds 20% to the damage output of a weapon system to each one. The ship that has a homogenous weapon layout now does 120dps. The ship that has a split layout is adding 20% to half of the damage output, equating to 110dps total. Also, because of the way stacking works in EVE, two damage modules to a single weapon system will always outperform two separate damage modules - ie, on the Typhoon, 2x BCS is always better than 1x BCS and 1x Gyro, assuming all weapon slots filled.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:34:00 - [30] The theory of split weapon systems and their versatility is fine. Its a good idea and makes for some interesting ship fits, sadly the way CCP has implemented it is not fine. Its awful! To have a split weapon system become as CCP says 'versatile' you need options, to go more guns or more missiles, or down the middle if you so desire. With the typhoon the A typical split weapon battleship, you have a 4/4 for the highs, 4/4 means you can't go missile heavy or turret heavy because with eight slots your 4/4 fills the highs, no options unless you turn dps into utility... For a split system, at the very least it should be an 8 slot 5/5 layout. This then becomes a truly versatile fit. The other failure of CCP is the ship bonuses "Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed and 5% bonus to siege and cruise missile launcher firing speed per level." All combat ships get a 5% something to their respective weapons, thats fine and dandy, but at the same token those ships are not split down the middile for Missiles and Turrets, they may have a 5% bonus to rate of fire like the maelstrom for all their turrets and then a second unrelated bonus. This is a bit of a problem. When a ship has 8 turrets then its single 5% bonus to those turrets equal both of the typhoons 5% bonuses. Basically Maelstrom Single Bonus equals both of the Typhoons bonuses. To fix this the typhoon needs a boost, now some think that the ships rate of fire bonuses should be merged and then a third bonus added. That I think is one option, I would do one of two things however. Merge the 5%/lvl turret and missile bonus to one single bonus of "5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret, siege and cruise missile launcher firing speeds." Then as a true multi weapon ship, give it a drone damage bonus for its second bonus. The other option is to simple increase the rate of fire bonuses to 7.5%, why should the bonuses be the same value as other ships? Thats all you need to do to fit the imbalance of a split weapon system.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Nian Banks Merge the 5%/lvl turret and missile bonus to one single bonus of "5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret, siege and cruise missile launcher firing speeds." Then as a true multi weapon ship, give it a drone damage bonus for its second bonus. The other option is to simple increase the rate of fire bonuses to 7.5%, why should the bonuses be the same value as other ships? Thats all you need to do to fit the imbalance of a split weapon system. So the problem with the Typhoon is the DPS? Because your solutions are only aimed at increasing the DPS. Make it even more closely related to the Armageddon/Megathron/Abaddon in the whole plate + gank department. Is this really the only way to make it a better ship...increase its DPS? Is there no other way anyone can think of to make a ship better in EVE, other then to increase its DPS or have it fly with a falcon at its side? --- Put in space whales!
Xoth Freefall Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.19 01:35:00 - [32] what about a bonus to cap or powergrid, say 5% per lvl? Refering to here at bs lvl 5 the powergrid would go from 12500 to 15625 (19531 with engineering V) or bs lvl 5 cap would go from 5000 to 6250 (7812 with cap skills at lvl 5) a few reference numbers Abaddon pg 21000/cap 6375 Armageddon pg 16500/ cap 5312.5 dominix pg 9000/cap 5000 Megathron pg 15500/cap 5625 Hyperion pg 15700/cap 7200
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Nian Banks Merge the 5%/lvl turret and missile bonus to one single bonus of "5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret, siege and cruise missile launcher firing speeds." Then as a true multi weapon ship, give it a drone damage bonus for its second bonus. The other option is to simple increase the rate of fire bonuses to 7.5%, why should the bonuses be the same value as other ships? Thats all you need to do to fit the imbalance of a split weapon system. So the problem with the Typhoon is the DPS? Because your solutions are only aimed at increasing the DPS. Make it even more closely related to the Armageddon/Megathron/Abaddon in the whole plate + gank department. Is this really the only way to make it a better ship...increase its DPS? Is there no other way anyone can think of to make a ship better in EVE, other then to increase its DPS or have it fly with a falcon at its side? Its either keep the dps as is and add a utility/ewar bonus or increase the dps. Take your pick. Personally as it seems to be a ship geared towards gank+tank/speed, I see no problem with the increase in dps. Then again, if it were to have a shield transporter bonus. I would be up for that.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Nian Banks Its either keep the dps as is and add a utility/ewar bonus or increase the dps. Take your pick. Personally as it seems to be a ship geared towards gank+tank/speed, I see no problem with the increase in dps. Then again, if it were to have a shield transporter bonus. I would be up for that. You lump DPS (single thing essentially) with utility/ewar bonus and make it come off as if they're one or the other. The "utility/ewar" bonus you refer to could be hundreds of different bonuses. A remote rep bonus of some sort would be very interesting for the typhoon, but surely that's not the only thing this ship could be turned into. The biggest complaints I see about split weapon systems are the training times (for t2) and the DPS. Both of those when you look at the numbers, even after adding damage mods, are not that bad. The typhoon in particular is a ship people are forcing to try to fit the Abaddon/Armageddon/Megathron fad roles of gank+buffer. --- Put in space whales!
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:40:00 - [35] Originally by: Lisento Slaven The biggest complaints I see about split weapon systems are the training times (for t2) and the DPS. Both of those when you look at the numbers, even after adding damage mods, are not that bad. The typhoon in particular is a ship people are forcing to try to fit the Abaddon/Armageddon/Megathron fad roles of gank+buffer. I (too) think the OP has it wrong...First of all, the Tempest on any flavor (faction or not) is NOT a split weapon platform...unless you are considering the Apoc or the mega a split weapon platform, or the Prophecy and each and every ship featuring hardpoints for both turrets and missiles at the same time... Minmatar ships with split bonuses and/or split turret and launcher hardpoints are all about versatility: Versatility according to your skills - on one hand you need to train almost 2x the skills for maximum dmg on a phoon, on the other hand cross training for it having say just decent drone skills or decent missile or decent AC skills is enough to make it work as you gain a huge amount of utility slots Versatility according to your fighting style and mood: The phoon in a huge extend and the Tempest can be anything you like: full dmg, full tank, armor tank, shield tank, ewar platforms, RR platforms, Neut-cap bleeders, BC-like agile etc, even without loosing all their DPS...yes, these are jacks of all trades BUT... Versatile to adapt within a fight: cause unlike the so called "masters" or turret dps as the Amarr BSs and the Gallente Blaster Ships, their DPS is not as easily countered/diminished with just a single ewar type: TDs are not affecting 90% of their DPS, webs do not decrease 50% of their optimal DPS etc..."masters" are way more predictable: Pulse Geddon, Blasterthron, Torp Raven...all can be countered in a repetitive way cause all of em are fitted and flown in more or less specific ways (par the Raven that has some sort of flexibility too)... Versatility punishes the single minded: you shouldn't pursue beating the "masters" in their turf that's just foolish...PvP is not missioning...think a bit out of the box when your ship allows it
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.20 10:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Lisento Slaven The biggest complaints I see about split weapon systems are the training times (for t2) and the DPS. Both of those when you look at the numbers, even after adding damage mods, are not that bad. The typhoon in particular is a ship people are forcing to try to fit the Abaddon/Armageddon/Megathron fad roles of gank+buffer. I (too) think the OP has it wrong...First of all, the Tempest on any flavor (faction or not) is NOT a split weapon platform...unless you are considering the Apoc or the mega a split weapon platform, or the Prophecy and each and every ship featuring hardpoints for both turrets and missiles at the same time... Minmatar ships with split bonuses and/or split turret and launcher hardpoints are all about versatility: Versatility according to your skills - on one hand you need to train almost 2x the skills for maximum dmg on a phoon, on the other hand cross training for it having say just decent drone skills or decent missile or decent AC skills is enough to make it work as you gain a huge amount of utility slots Versatility according to your fighting style and mood: The phoon in a huge extend and the Tempest can be anything you like: full dmg, full tank, armor tank, shield tank, ewar platforms, RR platforms, Neut-cap bleeders, BC-like agile etc, even without loosing all their DPS...yes, these are jacks of all trades BUT... Versatile to adapt within a fight: cause unlike the so called "masters" or turret dps as the Amarr BSs and the Gallente Blaster Ships, their DPS is not as easily countered/diminished with just a single ewar type: TDs are not affecting 90% of their DPS, webs do not decrease 50% of their optimal DPS etc..."masters" are way more predictable: Pulse Geddon, Blasterthron, Torp Raven...all can be countered in a repetitive way cause all of em are fitted and flown in more or less specific ways (par the Raven that has some sort of flexibility too)... Versatility punishes the single minded: you shouldn't pursue beating the "masters" in their turf that's just foolish...PvP is not missioning...think a bit out of the box when your ship allows it The bonuses on split weapon ships (especially the 50/50 ones) should make up for the need for 2 types of damage modules. The only reason Minnie ships have so called utility slots, is because putting missiles in them changes their overall DPS only slightly. Every ship has the option of doing that, the difference is, why would you put anything in other then a fully bonused and moded weapon. I don't see that as being a strength. Having said that, mixed damage sources with damage type selection is an advantage, and should be factored in as well.
Tobin Arkon Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:13:00 - [37] You do not need maximum theoretical DPS to make another ship go boom! Min/Max'ers suck and ruin games!
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Beverly Sparks The bonuses on split weapon ships (especially the 50/50 ones) should make up for the need for 2 types of damage modules. ??? the "50/50" ones ??? Like the Phoon? That tops easily 1000 dps when fitted for this an sole purpose is not enough? Other than the phoon and and Huginn are there other 50/50 ships? Cause if there are no bonuses... Originally by: Beverly Sparks The only reason Minnie ships have so called utility slots, is because putting missiles in them changes their overall DPS only slightly. Every ship has the option of doing that, the difference is, why would you put anything in other then a fully bonused and moded weapon. I don't see that as being a strength. ...oh...straight dps - straight dps - straight dps... No my friend, I disagree: utility slots are called that in minie ships simply because there are things you can fit there and won't gimp your setup or ruin your optimal play style - the play style each particular ship was designed for... Having free slots after filling all your bonused weapon hardpoints, is one thing. Having CPU, PG and Cap to utilize those slots with useful modules is another... An example prooving your thinking is not objective, is the Dominix: arguably one of the best close range PvP BSs, the Domi is very rarely fitted with guns, tho it's actually bonused for them. Gallente pilots simply appreciate the ability to deal decent dps just with drones, and opt mainly for neutralizers on those highs...even after the NOS-nerf, a nerf that NOS-Domies could justify just by themselves, thing haven't changed much...cap warfare vs. other ships is effective, and I cannot think more cap independent ships than the above minie crafts. Unlike the Tempest or the Phoon, ships with spare high slots rarely have the fitting needed for neutralizers or the usage of those modules possibly hurts them more than the average enemy due to cap usage. Thus fitting a neutralizer on a Blasterthron or a pulse geddon etc rarely does any good, unless you are trying some solo-surprise stuff... All in all, utility slots are those which you can fit with whatever you want...like the fifth med slot on a Myrm for example...sure, fitting constrains still exist on all ships, but I think that's whats balance and variety is all about in EvE... Even RP wise, minie are about guerrilla warfare...David vs. Goliath etc stuff...throwing underestimated stones is sometimes way more efficient than 1 vs. 1 hand to hand combat...and always smarter (imagine the Goliath throwing an upscaled rock to David - and of story - why run up close to "punch" him? U can always perform S&M on the corpse after-all) Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:56:00 - [39] Lisento and Diomidis got some good points. Too much good stuff to quote, just /sign on their stuff.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.20 14:39:00 - [40] Edited by: Visceroth on 20/02/2009 14:39:12 The mentality of EVE these days is "If you aren't doing a lot of damage you aren't doing anything." And that is why "versatile" ships seem weak. I fly the typhoon all the time in remote rep gangs and guess what I'm NEVER at the top of the damage dealt. But I can neut/nos the hell out of other ships and remote rep at the same time while dealing some damage. I'd call that pretty damn versatile. Just to clarify, I fly a 4 AC, 1 neut, 1 nos, 2 RR setup. This is what I see as versatility. I can fire on a BS, neut an inty, nos another BS, and remote rep a gang mate. While I will never end up on top of the killmail, I'm not obsolete when I can do that many things on one ship. Edit: spelling
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.20 15:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Visceroth Edited by: Visceroth on 20/02/2009 14:39:12 The mentality of EVE these days is "If you aren't doing a lot of damage you aren't doing anything." And that is why "versatile" ships seem weak. I fly the typhoon all the time in remote rep gangs and guess what I'm NEVER at the top of the damage dealt. But I can neut/nos the hell out of other ships and remote rep at the same time while dealing some damage. I'd call that pretty damn versatile. Just to clarify, I fly a 4 AC, 1 neut, 1 nos, 2 RR setup. This is what I see as versatility. I can fire on a BS, neut an inty, nos another BS, and remote rep a gang mate. While I will never end up on top of the killmail, I'm not obsolete when I can do that many things on one ship. Edit: spelling What if they gave the phoon a 6 turret/6 launcher high slot layout. Would you change your fit, or keep your utility.
Visceroth Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.20 15:40:00 - [42] Edited by: Visceroth on 20/02/2009 15:40:23 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Visceroth Edited by: Visceroth on 20/02/2009 14:39:12 The mentality of EVE these days is "If you aren't doing a lot of damage you aren't doing anything." And that is why "versatile" ships seem weak. I fly the typhoon all the time in remote rep gangs and guess what I'm NEVER at the top of the damage dealt. But I can neut/nos the hell out of other ships and remote rep at the same time while dealing some damage. I'd call that pretty damn versatile. Just to clarify, I fly a 4 AC, 1 neut, 1 nos, 2 RR setup. This is what I see as versatility. I can fire on a BS, neut an inty, nos another BS, and remote rep a gang mate. While I will never end up on top of the killmail, I'm not obsolete when I can do that many things on one ship. Edit: spelling What if they gave the phoon a 6 turret/6 launcher high slot layout. Would you change your fit, or keep your utility. I may improve one weapon system but keep the Neut(Edit) for sure and 2 RR's. Reason being is because if you go 6 turret or 6 launchers, there are already ships that do that better. 6 Turrets = Tempest = damage bonus + RoF bonus 6 launchers = Raven = explosion velocity + RoF bonus But I would really have to test that because nos/neut works well to maintain my cap.
Thorian Baalnorn	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:40:00 - [43] Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 20/02/2009 18:41:44 Another " you get more DPS if you do this instead!" thread. 1) brute strength( we call this DPS) does not always win the day 2) Most ships in this game arent used with other advantages in mind, other than the ones that come out and slap you in the face and say "HEY LOOK AT ME I GIVE YOU A BONUS IF YOU DO THIS!" 3)"PVPers" inheriently think more damage= godmode,epicwin, PWNMOBILE, etc. this leads to the general FOTD and FOTM present in all MMOs. 4)1-3 makes for very dry cookiecutter "this is the only way this ship is good" outlooks. People dont like missles cause guns give you better dps on EFT. But guns are inheritantly flawed.. not many take full advantage of guns flaws. Missles in many cases are superior to guns. Case in point: Caldari Hawk. i have one of these set up as a PVE play toy with a t2 125 mm in my 5th highslot and run spike ammo in it. with an AB i can move around at 780 m/s or so. when im moving at high speeds my rail becomes less and less effective whereas my missles dont. Missles have a great ability not many use because they think more DPS= win. This advantage is with say a caracal i can pick my engagment range no matter what your flying. I can pick my engagement range suited to make your weapon system an epicfail.If im using a caracal with heavies i have a range of somewhere in the neighborhood of 95 KM. so my engagement range is 0-95 km. if your using blasters even on a BS your range is going to be maybe a 1/3 of thateven with the longest range ammo. if your using rails i get in close and your not going to be able to track me effectively enough to do any damage worth mentioning. On smaller ships you would have to match my speed to keep at your engagement range,eve pvp 101 right, but while you build your ship to try to keep in your engagement range having to add stuff like ODs, thruster rigs and MWD so you can make sure you can tackle i can simply just add an ab or MWD( prefer ABs) and devote the rest of my slots to DPS and tank. I dont need all those extra speed mods because i have such a huge engagement range that it doesnt matter if your in my face or 90 km out. Is it a PWNALL theory? no their is nothing on here that pwns all, they call that balance. The point of my little novel: being able to get max DPS out of a ship does not= great pvper and flying a ship that has the max dps in the game does not = great ship in game. and sadly that seems to be the most common thinking. Ive seen people use the split weapon setup on a minny effectively. its not the best pvp ship out their.. but then if we all flew the current best pvp ship out their , this game would be pretty boring and it would no longer be the best ship out there.. it would be the only ship out there.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.02.20 19:03:00 - [44] 315 days till i can t2 fit a Typhoon w/ Ogre 2's etc... [i] Ransom List Project: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=999677&page=1
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.20 19:20:00 - [45] Originally by: RedSplat 315 days till i can t2 fit a Typhoon w/ Ogre 2's etc... EFT it up...what kind of DPS/EHP with the "gank+plate" setup on a phoon, with your skills, can you get? I'm thinking you can still get 700 dps easy with a T1 fit and crap skills, while still getting a 90,000+ EHP out of EFT. All for very cheap too compared to the full t2 fit version. --- Put in space whales!
dalman Vale Tudo. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.20 21:44:00 - [46] The only problem with the typhoon is that it's the tier 1 BS and therefore people probably don't expect it to be so skill intensive. But then again, a good BS solo-pilot should be expected to have good skills. And the answer to all the fitting and DPS questions in here is that you're not supposed to fit a single damagemod on it. The phoon already has a superb base DPS and uses no cap, so make use of it. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

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