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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 42 post(s)
LooknSee	Posted - 2009.02.23 23:34:00 - [121] So you're making PvE more like PvP. Alright, cool. But the effect of this system will be to give PvP players a reason to PvE, not the other way around. No hisec carebear is going to go into wspace where there is a very real possibility that they might have to self destruct their pod/implants to get back to known space. Game over, nothing else that follows matters.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2009.02.24 00:36:00 - [122] Originally by: LooknSee So you're making PvE more like PvP. Alright, cool. But the effect of this system will be to give PvP players a reason to PvE, not the other way around. No hisec carebear is going to go into wspace where there is a very real possibility that they might have to self destruct their pod/implants to get back to known space. Game over, nothing else that follows matters. Ofc, that same hisec carebear may have the thought to put away his high value clone and jump into a different skin. ^could matter^
McDaddy Pimp THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.24 00:39:00 - [123] Originally by: LooknSee So you're making PvE more like PvP. Alright, cool. But the effect of this system will be to give PvP players a reason to PvE, not the other way around. No hisec carebear is going to go into wspace where there is a very real possibility that they might have to self destruct their pod/implants to get back to known space. Game over, nothing else that follows matters. GOOD. Finally PVP players can do sum PVE without being bored to death. To all those whiners, just stick with your exciting lvl4s if you dont want to lose ur HG Crystal and CNRs
LooknSee	Posted - 2009.02.24 01:08:00 - [124] Originally by: Avernus Ofc, that same hisec carebear may have the thought to put away his high value clone and jump into a different skin. ^could matter^ Unlikely. They won't want to sacrifice the training speed by clonejumping out of their +5's. One would think that the attribute respec system would mitigate that to some extent, but it won't matter. Players will take anything they can get; they don't like to meet a game design halfway. If they train at 2400 SP/hr now with +5's and you tell them they can rearrange their stats such that they'll be able to train 2500 SP/hr with only +3's, they won't care. All they'll see is that they can now train 2700+ with +5's.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.02.24 01:25:00 - [125] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: CCP Incognito All the e-war works on npc, you can jam a sleeper quite easily. even nos and neuts have a affect on NPC, yes they have infinite cap. that doesn't mean that nos and neut don't have an affect on them. People have been assuming that because they have infinite cap that nos doesn't work on them. People have assumed that because you can't defend against a Gurista jamming you that the reverse is true. It is not, you can jam a NPC and make it stop attacking. ECM has always worked on NPCs, webifiers have always worked, warp disruption may have worked but was unneccessary, dampeners never seemed to work, and tracking disruption certainly does not. Got this confirmed that it was intentional game design after bug reporting it on when testing out new FW NPCs. With the old AI model its easy to understand why Tracking Disruption wouldn't work, otherwise one TD could simply disable one hostile NPC battleship. If the Sleepers have player-like sensor strength, why would damping not work? Let me be clear about this, if my triple damping Arazu doesn't actually work on the Sleepers, I will be sorely disappointed, because that was an angle I was working on. With the dampers nerfed to oblivion in PvP, I was hoping to still find some use for those damping skills you see ... because lets face it, those Arazu still looks damn fine ... and hunting down straggler Sleepers, damping them down, and killing them at leisure sounds like fun to me ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.02.24 01:33:00 - [126] Originally by: LooknSee Originally by: Avernus Ofc, that same hisec carebear may have the thought to put away his high value clone and jump into a different skin. ^could matter^ Unlikely. They won't want to sacrifice the training speed by clonejumping out of their +5's. One would think that the attribute respec system would mitigate that to some extent, but it won't matter. Players will take anything they can get; they don't like to meet a game design halfway. If they train at 2400 SP/hr now with +5's and you tell them they can rearrange their stats such that they'll be able to train 2500 SP/hr with only +3's, they won't care. All they'll see is that they can now train 2700+ with +5's. Those players that are totally risk averse may not want to do wormhole PvE. So what. No game design can please all players, especially the ones that don't want to participate. There is a choice here. Take some extra risk and gain the benefit from it. As long as those two are balanced, who cares about the risk averse grinders? Let them do what they want, and provide me with additional content. Personally, I'm beyond caring about +3's, +5's or how many skill points I acquire per hour. I've got plenty of both already. I just want to have fun playing the game. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Mikalya Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.02.24 01:37:00 - [127] Edited by: Mikalya on 24/02/2009 01:37:23
galphi Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.24 02:05:00 - [128] I've always thought the biggest problem that lowsec ratting and mission runners have is that their ships are setup to do the mission, which involves not having any pvp fittings. Changing the missions into something resembling a training ground for PVP would be great, it'd educate people more on how to pvp and get more people involved :) It'd mean balancing all the missions again but frankly they need overhauling anyway (dynamic missions!)
Nytemaster The Perfect Storm Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.24 02:49:00 - [129] Edited by: Nytemaster on 24/02/2009 02:49:55 Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 23/02/2009 12:59:16 CCP Fallout said "One of goals we have worked towards is making PvE combat more like PvP combat." I am still not sure that is a good idea. PvE players by their nature often dont like PvP combat. So adding in the PvP elements to PvE is only making PvE content that PvE people are not going like. Sleepers feel like PvE content made for PvP players, not PvE content for PvE players. Ok thats over simplified and some PvE will like the new PvE content. I am not against the new changes and some of it sounds good I just hope CCP realise if they make PvE to much like PvP against NPCs they are going lose a lot of PvE players. Who are sleepers aimed at? Will the PvE people want to go out and fight PvP like battles against NPC's? Will the PvP people fight NPCs or will they see it as carebare ish. Faction Warfare failed because it mixed PvE and PvP too much. To two need to be keep mostly separate. I have to disagree with you Pottsey and if you would see it from a different angle you may see the rewards this gives the player community about a better AI. Non PvPers are generally afraid of PvP not because it is hard, but because they generally experience it firsthand and the outcome is severely sour and unfair. They see no way to tackle a problem due to lack of experience and knowledge about PvP. This proposal will not only give people more challenge, in PvP but will allow some of us who like to PvP a setup that can do both at the same time. It also can slowly work players into better ships so that they are good PvPers and gain the confidence on their skills. We all know that PvP and PvE are two totally different animals. They are so vastly different that you need a totally different mindset for each. PvE and PvP won't ever be so similiar as to substitute one for the other, it will still have it's own flavor. Right now PvP and PvE are totally different foods.
Raketefrau Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.24 03:17:00 - [130] Edited by: Raketefrau on 24/02/2009 03:22:26 n/m, already answered.
Hon Kovell Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.02.24 03:18:00 - [131] Will the new AI consider whether it can hit or hurt the target? e.g. A webbing frigate may be the most important target but if it's orbiting too close for turrets to hit then another target is a better choice. Or if the most important target is a dread that will take hours to kill shoot something else first. (And ECM the main threat if you can.) Will the AI consider 'targets of opportunity'? i.e. if a secondary target drops transversal to zero and can be killed with one shot then do so before switching back to the primary. Related to the last - when the AI works out targets does it consider how hard they are to kill? i.e. 1 Megathron + 1 Thorax. Thorax is half the threat in terms of damage but can be killed quicker. Kill the Thorax first then the bigger but harder to kill threat of the Megathron. Alternatively, if the Mega can be killed just as fast then shoot it first.
Gal'drea	Posted - 2009.02.24 03:27:00 - [132] Edited by: Gal''drea on 24/02/2009 03:28:16 I agree with most of this. The current "problem" with PvE is that it is too far removed from PvP. It's not that PvE needs to make people lose their CNR, but that a PvE setup CNR cannot PvP. Sleeper AI will make PvE groups much more capable of handling themselves in PvP situations. However! These differences between NPC stats and players have got to go! Most specifically, targetting ranges (frigates targetting at 100km+) and locking speed (you can't sensor resolution damp them), along with infinite cap... are some of the last barriers between making a PvE experience which can instruct and help PvE characters be more involved and prepared for the eventuality which is PvP. CCP, please consider these changes! Player fit ships and stats are challenging enough! You can even keep above normal DPS and tank, even faster than usual speeds, but the basic E-war should FULLY apply. Half a job is none at all. edit: I wouldn't mind seeing a few CNR wrecks as well... all in the name of learning, right?
CHAOS100 Widowmakers	Posted - 2009.02.24 03:51:00 - [133] I hope you are not making them to appear to be "like pvp" and on the mean time have unfair advantages that real players don't have. Such as torps that still do insane damage to moving targets and travel 150km to their targets. I assume you will make them effected by neuting and nossing, since that is also PVP tactics. Same with sensor damps. All those do not matter to current 'rats'. --------------
Viktor Del'Grande	Posted - 2009.02.24 04:52:00 - [134] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Viktor Del'Grande Hi, Are they affected from tracking disruption the same way as players are affected from it? Is their optimal range and falloff behaviour the same as at the players? Or are these attribute like the cap infinite? There are NPCs out there which shoot you with blasters from 50km+ Are they the same way affected by sensor dampening (targeting range) as players? Or do they have infinite targeting range .. or maybe 250km? They should be, I would have to spelunk the code to be 100% sure. It should have the same affect as it does on players, one thing to be aware of is the npc have different ranges and falloffs than most pc ships. Too all who asked about damps and tracking disruption.... Best Regards Viktor Del'Grande Btw: Eventually update the blog about the often arrised questions and answers or update the initial post
wert668	Posted - 2009.02.24 05:14:00 - [135] I read this and half of "GIVE US NPC AI" and what to say? For me is stuck in the half way.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.24 05:45:00 - [136] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Siobhan Ni If you really want to make the encounters more like pvp then have the sleepers smack talk in local and ransom you pod Sorry I tried really really hard but design would not let me make sleeper pod players :( without a ship you seem kinda stuck in w space, and might as well self destruct and well pods would be low on the aggro list, thus when in a gang (aka most likely have a way to get back) they won't go for ya unless you sit around.
Pliauga Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.24 06:23:00 - [137] Was anyone transported to w-space last night? ------- "Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.24 07:05:00 - [138] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Venkul Mul Hit and run = spend lot of time and from what I have seen of combat screenshopts they warp disrupt like crazy If you are convinced it will work and be fun Frigates as tacklers? What a shocking development that has surely never happend. Beside your lack of originality, my dear troll, frigates that warp disrupt, jam, lock at 150 km, MDW, spider tank, can't be nossed/cap disrupted and have lots or DPS aren't equivalent to PvP ships.
Dreamwalker	Posted - 2009.02.24 07:56:00 - [139] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton without a ship you seem kinda stuck in w space, and might as well self destruct and well pods would be low on the aggro list, thus when in a gang (aka most likely have a way to get back) they won't go for ya unless you sit around. Sounds like PvP to me Originally by: CCP Whisper Local chat in known 0.0, low sec and empire space will remain as it is today, in all it's insta-intel giving, afk cloaker panic inducing, jita trade spamming glory.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.02.24 08:08:00 - [140] Edited by: CCP Incognito on 24/02/2009 08:09:31 Originally by: Hon Kovell Will the new AI consider whether it can hit or hurt the target? e.g. A webbing frigate may be the most important target but if it's orbiting too close for turrets to hit then another target is a better choice. Or if the most important target is a dread that will take hours to kill shoot something else first. (And ECM the main threat if you can.) Will the AI consider 'targets of opportunity'? i.e. if a secondary target drops transversal to zero and can be killed with one shot then do so before switching back to the primary. Related to the last - when the AI works out targets does it consider how hard they are to kill? i.e. 1 Megathron + 1 Thorax. Thorax is half the threat in terms of damage but can be killed quicker. Kill the Thorax first then the bigger but harder to kill threat of the Megathron. Alternatively, if the Mega can be killed just as fast then shoot it first. I can't give it all away... But the W-Space NPC will multi target and target switch. The target switching is initially based on how close the signature radius of the ships match (excluding modifiers). Then it is down to observation, if a npc sees that different ship is doing more threat then it will switch targets. If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target. So you will see things like the npc initially targets the same size ship, then as the player open up with all guns blazing it switches to the player doing the most threat. Then if it observes another player remote rep it's target it will consider switching targets to the remote rep ship, or maybe allocating a secondary target and use jamming and such on it. Some e-war effect will only be used on primary targets, some will only be used on secondary targets, some will only be used if 'to many' are not on that target already. a internal test we have done with Jamming (which w-space npc don't use). Is to have a npc attacking with guns and missiles one target, and jamming the remote rep ship. Without specifics yes npc will devalue a target if it appears to tank to well and switch to another. No they don't look for targets of opportunity.

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.24 08:10:00 - [141] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Venkul Mul Hit and run = spend lot of time and from what I have seen of combat screenshopts they warp disrupt like crazy If you are convinced it will work and be fun Frigates as tacklers? What a shocking development that has surely never happend. Beside your lack of originality, my dear troll, frigates that warp disrupt, jam, lock at 150 km, MDW, spider tank, can't be nossed/cap disrupted and have lots or DPS aren't equivalent to PvP ships. ^^This^^ My biggest problem with the Sleepers is that they have combine all the best in one package: better AI huge DPS tough tanks partial ewar imunity insane ranges and reaction times They combine "regular" ship abilities but in a way not possible for player ships. F.E a cruiser cannot have good DPS, EHP/tank and remote rep others long ranges. Or. if you pack MWD+web+scram on a regular cruiser, there's not much (or any at all) of your mid slots left. Same with lows, you either get damage or tank, not both. One big problem is capacitor management. Just the simple issue of MWD sustainability. If NPC frigs and cruisers can MWD infinitely long, then we have a huge problem. Do they follow module restrictions ? I mean if I web a frig in the middle of his MWD cycle, he's slow and big so I can shoot him. However if I do the same with a Sleeper frig and he shuts down MWD immediately (no cycle time restriction), then basicaly I just allowed him to shoot me (low transversal) without any advantages for me. The major problem for me is NPC reaction time. They lock almost instantly at great ranges and apply effects that far outrange the best player abilities. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Korerin Mayul	Posted - 2009.02.24 08:20:00 - [142] We are now feature complete and spending the remaining time to release on polish and tweaks. :/ a games project... finished BEFORE a deadline? O_o maby scrum isnt a bunch of out-of-touch middle managment jargon after all. ps; i keep getting ganked in pvp. can you patch my player intellegence so this happens less often?
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2009.02.24 09:22:00 - [143] Edited by: Garia666 on 24/02/2009 09:25:27 Edited by: Garia666 on 24/02/2009 09:23:54 Nice and all.. but will our PVP mods be effective on NPC now aswell? When you use a scram there mwd will turn off? When neuted they will die properly? when jammed they cant remotre rep eachother anymore.. ?? When using an tracking disrubter they will fail to do dmg? ECM burst will stop there lock ? I mean its fun nice AI but the effect should be the same then And dont you think well see more blobbing in wormwholes now? just take fleets of 30+ to roam and shoot npc www.garia.net
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.24 09:25:00 - [144] 1) Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Also, don't forget that due to the new Sleeper AI, any other evil player pirate warping in to attack you may also be considered a valid and juicy target for the NPCs, meaning you will stand a fair chances if spotted . 2) Originally by: CCP Incognito I can't give it all away... But the W-Space NPC will multi target and target switch. The target switching is initially based on how close the signature radius of the ships match (excluding modifiers). Then it is down to observation, if a npc sees that different ship is doing more threat then it will switch targets. If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target. So you will see things like the npc initially targets the same size ship, then as the player open up with all guns blazing it switches to the player doing the most threat. Then if it observes another player remote rep it's target it will consider switching targets to the remote rep ship, or maybe allocating a secondary target and use jamming and such on it. Some e-war effect will only be used on primary targets, some will only be used on secondary targets, some will only be used if 'to many' are not on that target already. ---- Without specifics yes npc will devalue a target if it appears to tank to well and switch to another. No they don't look for targets of opportunity. I see a big contradiction between 1) and 2), so: the new NPC will (at least potentially) switch targets against new people that enter the combat area and attack the players already locked in combat with the NPC or not? As a threat assessment it is logic that they will not switch targets, but then please don't speak like the new AI could be a "equalizing" factor in PvP when NPC are involved. The NPC still help, and for sleepers greatly help, the group attacking the players already involved in PvP.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.02.24 09:38:00 - [145] Edited by: CCP Incognito on 24/02/2009 09:40:23 Originally by: Venkul Mul 1) Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Also, don't forget that due to the new Sleeper AI, any other evil player pirate warping in to attack you may also be considered a valid and juicy target for the NPCs, meaning you will stand a fair chances if spotted . 2) Originally by: CCP Incognito I can't give it all away... But the W-Space NPC will multi target and target switch. The target switching is initially based on how close the signature radius of the ships match (excluding modifiers). Then it is down to observation, if a npc sees that different ship is doing more threat then it will switch targets. If it observes an assistance affect like remote reping, then it will consider that as a possible target. So you will see things like the npc initially targets the same size ship, then as the player open up with all guns blazing it switches to the player doing the most threat. Then if it observes another player remote rep it's target it will consider switching targets to the remote rep ship, or maybe allocating a secondary target and use jamming and such on it. Some e-war effect will only be used on primary targets, some will only be used on secondary targets, some will only be used if 'to many' are not on that target already. ---- Without specifics yes npc will devalue a target if it appears to tank to well and switch to another. No they don't look for targets of opportunity. I see a big contradiction between 1) and 2), so: the new NPC will (at least potentially) switch targets against new people that enter the combat area and attack the players already locked in combat with the NPC or not? As a threat assessment it is logic that they will not switch targets, but then please don't speak like the new AI could be a "equalizing" factor in PvP when NPC are involved. The NPC still help, and for sleepers greatly help, the group attacking the players already involved in PvP. We are both right, if you have been fighting a NPC for a while, and surviving then the NPC will have observed you are a good tank, and your threat is reduced by a multiplier. I will not expand on how this works, just to say that someone that has been tanking for a while will be a less valuable target than someone with no history. depending on how long the fight has been going will kinda influence if the npc attacks the new target, or assumes that he is a ally arriving late. In either case the npc doesn't care if he is a ally or a interloper. It shoots at the best target. If it knows you are a good tank, it will see if the new target is a good tank or not. If it doesn't know yet then it will use the signature radius and threat as a basis for picking a good target. So the bottom line is there is no hard fast rule that says the AI will behave this way. It all depends on what you do... We didn't like the mechanic of first ship in holds threat for the whole battle so we changed that. You will have to fight the W-space npc and make your own guesses about when they will and won't switch targets. I will say this. The npc do not use faction standing/ criminal flagging/ security status for any of it's evaluation of targets.

Zerb Arus WormSpaceWormS	Posted - 2009.02.24 09:40:00 - [146] Originally by: Venkul Mul ... As a threat assessment it is logic that they will not switch targets, but then please don't speak like the new AI could be a "equalizing" factor in PvP when NPC are involved. The NPC still help, and for sleepers greatly help, the group attacking the players already involved in PvP. I warped to a fleet which was fighting sleepers. I was not part of that gang, nor did I use any module. All cruisers locked me and began to shoot me. Was this the information you were looking for?
Winter Star Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.02.24 10:52:00 - [147] I wonder if trying ot cycle the primary target of the sleeper would prove effective? Agro could maybe be grabbed by a dps increase acheieved through heat or somesuch and cycling your mwd to increase signature?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.24 10:59:00 - [148] no said this yet sooo... thank you :)
Eileene	Posted - 2009.02.24 11:35:00 - [149] Originally by: CCP Incognito a internal test we have done with Jamming (which w-space npc don't use). Is to have a npc attacking with guns and missiles one target, and jamming the remote rep ship. Just make sure there is a point to fit ECCM modules. As it is now NPC ignore your ECCM modules and use static tables with jam chances.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.02.24 11:36:00 - [150] Originally by: Winter Star I wonder if trying ot cycle the primary target of the sleeper would prove effective? Agro could maybe be grabbed by a dps increase acheieved through heat or somesuch and cycling your mwd to increase signature? Sry we use the unmodified signature radius, we are looking to compare class not get your frigate popped by the battle ship cause your mwd makes you look like one. Originally by: MotherMoon no said this yet sooo... thank you :) You are welcome :)


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